Questions for vegans

[BeNotDeceived]

But, is this an issue for you, if other people eat differently than you do? I’ve got no quarrel with animal consumers.

I fully support your desire or any person's desire to eat like a vegan. I strongly disagree with all the vegan influencers and the powerful multinational food companies, which make unhealthy processed food, pushing anyone to give up omnivory on the basis that's it's better for the planet or for health. I fear that there will be large global partnerships to restrict food freedom in the future.

Big Soda blocked peoples rights to pass local sugar taxes. MSM won’t publish anything negative about their big advertisers.

[Jashon]

Again, if my gut is not manufacturing it and if mushrooms are not providing it, what is supposed to be happening to my health if I haven’t had any B-12 for many years?

Perhaps you're eating food fortified with it. That's what this doctor mentions, toward the end. He doesn't mention anything about humans producing it internally. He says in an ancestral diet humans got it from stream water or unwashed plants, etc. This seems like a good video to check out.

[gradles21]

I want to see a vegan win on a season of Alone, but we all know that will never happen. This tells me all I need to know about veganism.

[Niyr]

Yet this plant-based website says that
This makes it sound like what you wrote isn't accurate.

Yeah, I don’t know if this or what I read about mushrooms, or about B-12 being manufactured in the gut is most accurate. But after 25 years of veganism, what is supposed to be happening to my health?

Also, how do cows get B-12 by eating only grass? Does grass contain B-12?

Cattle have rumens, which contain the only things that can break down the cell walls of grass, microbes and bacteria, which are also found in soils (short grass, herbicides/pesticides greatly reduce soil microbes). That is how they get vitamin b12 from grass, through that symbiotic relationship.

And my point is, if it works for them, can we really rule out that the human body can also do something similar with a non-animal diet.

Again, if my gut is not manufacturing it and if mushrooms are not providing it, what is supposed to be happening to my health if I haven’t had any B-12 for many years?

We cannot process cell walls like ruminants do, so if that was what you were meaning, then no. We do not have a rumen nor do we have those same specific microbes and bacteria. Only ruminants and soil do (and some insects I suppose).

I don't know about your diet and was not commenting on your diet. I was only providing some education about cattle digestive processes.

[Niyr]

But, is this an issue for you, if other people eat differently than you do? I’ve got no quarrel with animal consumers.

I fully support your desire or any person's desire to eat like a vegan. I strongly disagree with all the vegan influencers and the powerful multinational food companies, which make unhealthy processed food, pushing anyone to give up omnivory on the basis that's it's better for the planet or for health. I fear that there will be large global partnerships to restrict food freedom in the future.

Big Soda blocked peoples rights to pass local sugar taxes. MSM won’t publish anything negative about their big advertisers.

That's akin to saying 'gun manufacturers blocked peoples' "rights" to pass gun taxes.' In this case, a tax on a right is immoral.

[Allison]

Yeah, I don’t know if this or what I read about mushrooms, or about B-12 being manufactured in the gut is most accurate. But after 25 years of veganism, what is supposed to be happening to my health?

Also, how do cows get B-12 by eating only grass? Does grass contain B-12?

Cattle have rumens, which contain the only things that can break down the cell walls of grass, microbes and bacteria, which are also found in soils (short grass, herbicides/pesticides greatly reduce soil microbes). That is how they get vitamin b12 from grass, through that symbiotic relationship.

And my point is, if it works for them, can we really rule out that the human body can also do something similar with a non-animal diet.

Again, if my gut is not manufacturing it and if mushrooms are not providing it, what is supposed to be happening to my health if I haven’t had any B-12 for many years?

We cannot process cell walls like ruminants do, so if that was what you were meaning, then no. We do not have a rumen nor do we have those same specific microbes and bacteria. Only ruminants and soil do (and some insects I suppose).

I don't know about your diet and was not commenting on your diet. I was only providing some education about cattle digestive processes.

Oh yes, thank you. And I wasn’t suggesting vegans eat grass either, lol. It’s just that when and wherever i read that about B-12 being manufactured in the gut, I made no effort to lodge the specifics on my memory, because I don’t normally discuss my diet.

Either way, I am not worried about the B-12 issue so far.

That’s a fascinating bit of trivia about how cows can manufacture it from grass, though.

[Allison]

I want to see a vegan win on a season of Alone, but we all know that will never happen. This tells me all I need to know about veganism.

Do vegans enter the competition? It’s a pretty small demographic subset.

[gradles21]

I want to see a vegan win on a season of Alone, but we all know that will never happen. This tells me all I need to know about veganism.

Do vegans enter the competition? It’s a pretty small demographic subset.

There have been a few women that have tried to heavily rely on vegetation but they never last more than a few weeks, they lose too much weight too rapidly. The people that win are the ones that can catch a lot of fish or successful hunt large game, there are no exceptions to this. Humans need animal fat to survive harsh conditions.

[Allison]

I want to see a vegan win on a season of Alone, but we all know that will never happen. This tells me all I need to know about veganism.

Do vegans enter the competition? It’s a pretty small demographic subset.

There have been a few women that have tried to heavily rely on vegetation but they never last more than a few weeks, they lose too much weight too rapidly. The people that win are the ones that can catch a lot of fish or successful hunt large game, there are no exceptions to this. Humans need animal fat to survive harsh conditions.

Or fat, anyway. And the Word of Wisdom does specify winter/cold, or famine. It would seem the Lord was referring to winter conditions more than tropical thermostat controlled home and automobile environments.

But yes, chewing celery burns more calories than celery contains, lol. Starches help a lot, but probably not so easy to find in the wilderness.

Also, manna seemed to suffice, which I always thought of as a starch, but certainly not animal.

[Jashon]

Unfortunately for vegans, plant-based nutrition is objectively inferior for humans, from the standpoint of biochemistry, and to top it off, auto-immune or other health issues from heavy plant eating occur for many, at some point in their vegan journey. Bone fractures occur at higher rates for vegans, and wound healing is diminished, shown by differential blood markers. The older we get, the more important these things get. Animal-based nutrition is denser and more bio-available and bio-identical. Auto-immune issues are very rare from eating an animal-based diet.

Recently an MD who had been a vegan for many years came down with a bad case of RA. Medications gave her 20% relief (her appraisal). They included prednisone, methotrexate, and hydroxychloroquine. Humira costs thousands a month and was considered. (I assume that she had good insurance, as a physician, which would pay most of the expense of drugs like Humira; others aren't so fortunate.)

She had been told that red meat was inflammatory and was advised to continue to avoid that in her diet. She was obviously motivated to study the issue further and she found out from various marginalized MDs that an elimination diet of mostly red meat might benefit her and solve her auto-immune problem. So she began to eat that way and within a few months all her inflammatory markers normalized and her RA went into remission.

Like so many things in this corrupt world, the opposite of what she was told by the establishment was true.

Red meat has been criticized in the American culture for decades, so that many of the relevant medical studies in the literature are plagued by the confounding factor of healthy user bias. In cultures where red meat consumption hasn't been criticized, observational or epidemiological studies show different, better outcomes for those that eat meat. For example, meat consumption in Hong Kong is very high per capita, and so is longevity.

[Allison]

Unfortunately for vegans, plant-based nutrition is objectively inferior for humans, from the standpoint of biochemistry, and to top it off, auto-immune or other health issues from heavy plant eating occur for many, at some point in their vegan journey. Bone fractures occur at higher rates for vegans, and wound healing is diminished, shown by differential blood markers. The older we get, the more important these things get. Animal-based nutrition is denser and more bio-available and bio-identical. Auto-immune issues are very rare from eating an animal-based diet.

Recently an MD who had been a vegan for many years came down with a bad case of RA. Medications gave her 20% relief (her appraisal). They included prednisone, methotrexate, and hydroxychloroquine. Humira costs thousands a month and was considered. (I assume that she had good insurance, as a physician, which would pay most of the expense of drugs like Humira; others aren't so fortunate.)

She had been told that red meat was inflammatory and was advised to continue to avoid that in her diet. She was obviously motivated to study the issue further and she found out from various marginalized MDs that an elimination diet of mostly red meat might benefit her and solve her auto-immune problem. So she began to eat that way and within a few months all her inflammatory markers normalized and her RA went into remission.

Like so many things in this corrupt world, the opposite of what she was told by the establishment was true.

Red meat has been criticized in the American culture for decades, so that many of the relevant medical studies in the literature are plagued by the confounding factor of healthy user bias. In cultures where red meat consumption hasn't been criticized, observational or epidemiological studies show different, better outcomes for those that eat meat. For example, meat consumption in Hong Kong is very high per capita, and so is longevity.

Do you know, scientifically, what form of protein is most easily assimilated and utilized by the human body? Human flesh. So say and do what you will, but I have lived veganism for a long time now without any of the dreaded outcomes you describe. Are you suggesting that autoimmune disease is basically limited to vegans?

You might want to read The China Study, by T. Collin Campbell.

[Jashon]

Do you know, scientifically, what form of protein is most easily assimilated and utilized by the human body? Human flesh. So say and do what you will, but I have lived veganism for a long time now without any of the dreaded outcomes you describe. Are you suggesting that autoimmune disease is basically limited to vegans?

Enough said, I get it that you intensely dislike the idea of some of us neglecting to eat animal flesh and fluids. To each our own.

Look, I've tried to avoid pejoratives, but you just gave in to doing so. Perhaps it's because you're aware that you've adopted a path of inferior nutrition and are defensive about it.

Yet as stated, I support your right to be a vegan and to eat any way that you like. But it is, by and large, vegans who are intolerant of meat-eaters, not vice versa. In any event, I'm not interested in inflammatory rhetoric or subjective labeling.

First and foremost, I'm interested in the question of what nutrition is objectively optimal for humans, and it is not nutrition where the majority of the nutrients come from plants. The nutrients in plants just don't absorb as well as the nutrients in animal foods, and for many, but not for you, various plant foods cause mild to severe auto-immune health issues. And no, plant foods aren't the only cause of auto-immunity, but they are the main culprits.

Plants have many defense chemicals that degrade digestion and inhibit nutrient absorption and cause auto-immunity. There's also a heavy metal issue in plant foods, similar to the mercury issue for tuna, etc. My own auto-immune problems didn't occur until I was about 55, and it isn't only some plant foods that create a difficulty for me, but also pasteurized milk/cream. (Raw dairy doesn't seem to be an issue.)

When my auto-immune problem started, I became interested in zeroing in on what was causing my particular problems. I wasn't interested in band-aid solutions and medications. I had not been aware that there was so much inaccurate official advice in the nutrition space, as well as misleading studies, until I had my own health problem and looked into it. I was misled along with so many others. I naively accepted mainstream nutrition narratives my entire adult life. And I was misinformed about fat, in particular. I was wrongly taught to think eating animal fat was bad for me. In general, I was misinformed about plant food being superior food to meat.

[Allison]

Do you know, scientifically, what form of protein is most easily assimilated and utilized by the human body? Human flesh. So say and do what you will, but I have lived veganism for a long time now without any of the dreaded outcomes you describe. Are you suggesting that autoimmune disease is basically limited to vegans?

Enough said, I get it that you intensely dislike the idea of some of us neglecting to eat animal flesh and fluids. To each our own.

Look, I've tried to avoid pejoratives, but you just gave in to doing so. Perhaps it's because you're aware that you've adopted a path of inferior nutrition and are defensive about it.

Yet as stated, I support your right to be a vegan and to eat any way that you like. But it is, by and large, vegans who are intolerant of meat-eaters, not vice versa. In any event, I'm not interested in inflammatory rhetoric or subjective labeling.

First and foremost, I'm interested in the question of what nutrition is objectively optimal for humans, and it is not nutrition where the majority of the nutrients come from plants. The nutrients in plants just don't absorb as well as the nutrients in animal foods, and for many, but not for you, various plant foods cause mild to severe auto-immune health issues. And no, plant foods aren't the only cause of auto-immunity, but they are the main culprits.

Plants have many defense chemicals that degrade digestion and inhibit nutrient absorption and cause auto-immunity. There's also a heavy metal issue in plant foods, similar to the mercury issue for tuna, etc. My own auto-immune problems didn't occur until I was about 55, and it isn't only some plant foods that create a difficulty for me, but also pasteurized milk/cream. (Raw dairy doesn't seem to be an issue.)

When my auto-immune problem started, I became interested in zeroing in on what was causing my particular problems. I wasn't interested in band-aid solutions and medications. I had not been aware that there was so much inaccurate official advice in the nutrition space, as well as misleading studies, until I had my own health problem and looked into it. I was misled along with so many others. I naively accepted mainstream nutrition narratives my entire adult life. And I was misinformed about fat, in particular. I was wrongly taught to think eating animal fat was bad for me. In general, I was misinformed about plant food being superior food to meat.

I apologize if I came across as using pejoratives. There just seemed to be a disproportionate emotional tone. But I can see why it might be that way, if you feel that plant foods have caused your autoimmune problems. Very sorry; health issues are never fun. I hope you are on a good path now, and healing well.

It’s all good.

[Wolfwoman]

I wonder how Adam and Eve got all of their vitamins, etc. when they were living in the Garden of Eden.

[Niemand]

I wonder how Adam and Eve got all of their vitamins, etc. when they were living in the Garden of Eden.

There was no death and disease so no problemo.

[Allison]

I wonder how Adam and Eve got all of their vitamins, etc. when they were living in the Garden of Eden.

There was no death and disease so no problemo.

Christian vegetarians argue that flesh nor* was consumed before the Flood, and that is when the life expectancy really dropped. But it is still open for debate.

https://www.christianforums.com/threads ... ood.29486/

p.s. I am not interested in debating this. Just linking to one of the debates.

*Edit to insert the word, “not.”

[Bronco73idi]

Being a Vegan for the purpose of religion or higher power is a sin. Once a man (Adam) fell he was required to have dominion over all things in the earth. He is required to take life to make life and give thanks in humility. He is required to be a man, if he can’t succeed at that he can not become like his father.

[Jamescm]

Allison, I appreciate your hanging in this topic to give the information and insights that you have. As a not vegen, I appreciate having heard the comments and thoughts of someone who is one, but who isn't also someone using it dishonestly to push a social agenda.

[Dangerous rhetoric]

I can't really tell much of a difference between the veganism debate and the abortion debate.

I don't think there's any theological argument to be made for veganism, quite the opposite actually, but it at least seems like it should be self-evident that vegans are concerned with minimizing killing. If there are the means to eat plants, I flinch at the idea of opting to eat meat. I've butchered fish in a factory, and going in, I considered myself a bit of a savage, and I came out of it having spent those long hours really thinking about what it was and wondering why we are permitted to do this in nonessential circumstances.

Vitamin B12 isn't really something that's critically wrong with the diet. You can get supplements, and your body can store it for gradual dispersal later on. I can say that I feel healthier than ever on my current diet.

As for the WEF, if we ran into a crisis, I'd be fine with eating communists for national security purposes, whether humans or bugs, but I don't see the difference between the family dog and a deer. Maybe I'm crazy.

[ransomme]

Somewhat similar to a new vegan who begins to eat whole foods. At first there's improvement, a feeling of well-being, because processed food is eliminated. But after a few years the body starts to break down, wound healing is diminished, the brain doesn't work as well.

With apologies for the thread drift, you’re misinformed about veganism, lol! I’ve been vegan for 25 years and do not miss meat or milk at all. No health breakdowns, wounds still heal, no prescription or nonprescription drugs at all. Wearing glasses now, is that from veganism? Arteries clean as a whistle. No depression. Just feeling very grateful and happy. Oh the urban legends.

Taking this to a new thread, I have a few questions, to better understand veganism.

It's my understanding that a true vegan can't get DHA or B12, two very important aspects of non-vegan nutrition.

How do you get those?

They could eat dirt for B12

[ransomme]

I wonder how Adam and Eve got all of their vitamins, etc. when they were living in the Garden of Eden.

There was no death and disease so no problemo.

Christian vegetarians argue that flesh nor* was consumed before the Flood, and that is when the life expectancy really dropped. But it is still open for debate.

https://www.christianforums.com/threads ... ood.29486/

p.s. I am not interested in debating this. Just linking to one of the debates.

*Edit to insert the word, “not.”

No need to debate, but that is a super silly idea that eating meat took life expectancy down from 900 to under 100 years.

And since Adam they did animal sacrifice. Do we really think that they herded animals, killed animals, etc. but never ate them?

[ransomme]

I wonder how Adam and Eve got all of their vitamins, etc. when they were living in the Garden of Eden.

Jesus ate fish with his disciples after his resurrection.

Veganism is a false religion.

And in the garden Adam and Eve were sustained by God, not really by the fruits they consumed.

[SunriseBoy]

'Veganism is a false religion'. Uh huh.
So, how will people fare in the afterlife where 'veganism' is the way everyone will live.
There will be no killing (and torturing) of animals or stealing their produce, eggs, milk etc. etc.
The Mormon way of life is a sick joke; not to mention the other religious imposters around the traps.
Loud, fat, and greedy. The only resemblance it has to the gospel of Jesus Christ, is, like so many other religious rackets, that they've hijacked the Lord's name.
This whole repugnant racket is about self righteous egoism, and 'religion'.

[ransomme]

'Veganism is a false religion'. Uh huh.
So, how will people fare in the afterlife where 'veganism' is the way everyone will live.
There will be no killing (and torturing) of animals or stealing their produce, eggs, milk etc. etc.
The Mormon way of life is a sick joke; not to mention the other religious imposters around the traps.
Loud, fat, and greedy. The only resemblance it has to the gospel of Jesus Christ, is, like so many other religious rackets, that they've hijacked the Lord's name.
This whole repugnant racket is about self righteous egoism, and 'religion'.

Death, animal sacrifice, killing of animals for food and raiment, etc. is a part of life's design (including our own bodies) in this telestial, temporal, fallen world. For instance, who made Adam and Eve's first raiment? And what were they made from? Who commanded the sons and daughters of God to sacrifice animals? Did not the Son of Man eat flesh? Even after His resurrection too?

Don't hold up a strawman worst-case-scenario to argue against. I don't think anyone here is advocating for factory commercial farming or slaughter houses which defile the land and animals. There are respectable ways to approach these things. Revertant ways.

Not to mention vegans kill all the time, they just don't value other kinds of like as much as they do animals that are cute. They kill all sorts of insects, birds, small animals, and they kill plants.

Anyway in your scenario, in heaven, we will only be fruitarians and berry-atarians and such: eating only that which is given freely by the plant.

So stop believing in unicorns, they are just rhinoceroses.

[SunriseBoy]

You are a bit too self righteous and too much of tap dancer for me. Mormons are brilliant at that. But they won't be able to tap dance around the $5million fine via the IRS.
“We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.”
So, anything else you, and they, have to say is very dubious.