Uchtdorf: God gave us masks. God gave us a vaccine.

[Obeone]

To cite WW’s comments as the only source to justify the transferral of “keys” is to overlook many other aspects related to this time period. I hate to burst your bubble, but many of these leaders after Joseph were liars.

I cite my personal revelation first and foremost. I know that the keys are here. It was revealed to me by God.

Wilford Woodruff's statement simply gives the context that makes things clearer. I know that he held the keys as he said he did.

As for Wilford Woodruff being a liar, I know by revelation of God that he was not.

Cheers.

[Reluctant Watchman]

To cite WW’s comments as the only source to justify the transferral of “keys” is to overlook many other aspects related to this time period. I hate to burst your bubble, but many of these leaders after Joseph were liars.

I cite my personal revelation first and foremost. I know that the keys are here. It was revealed to me by God.

Wilford Woodruff's statement is the context that makes things clear. I know that he held the keys as he said he did.

As for this Wilford Woodruff being a liar, I know by revelation of God that he was not. Therefore I'd rather suppose that you are a liar.

Cheers.

I will certainly be the first to admit that I am not perfect, and often make hasty judgments. But our own personal “revelation” must be tempered by actual historical facts. Not just what one man may or may not have said. And that history, is muddy at best.

Even other church leaders who worked with WW knew to take what he said with a grain of salt.

I do love a good “liar” accusation in the morning though. Maybe I could have used the word “misled” instead of liar. But I will say that many of these men were straight up liars. Worse in fact.

[Obeone]

I will certainly be the first to admit that I am not perfect, and often make hasty judgments. But our own personal “revelation” must be tempered by actual historical facts. Not just what one man may or may not have said. And that history, is muddy at best.

Even other church leaders who worked with WW knew to take what he said with a grain of salt.

I do love a good “liar” accusation in the morning though. Maybe I could have used the word “misled” instead of liar. But I will say that many of these men were straight up liars. Worse in fact.

You are right. History (as recorded by the world) is muddy at best. This is why one must have direct revelation from God to know that Jesus is the Christ, that Joseph was a true prophet, and that the Church still has the keys.

I did not call you a liar (technically). I said I'd rather suppose you are a liar than Wilford.

But I do appreciate you trying to be objective.

Without revelation we can know nothing for certain. And I do know on this point for certain, as I said.

Cheers.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I will certainly be the first to admit that I am not perfect, and often make hasty judgments. But our own personal “revelation” must be tempered by actual historical facts. Not just what one man may or may not have said. And that history, is muddy at best.

Even other church leaders who worked with WW knew to take what he said with a grain of salt.

I do love a good “liar” accusation in the morning though. Maybe I could have used the word “misled” instead of liar. But I will say that many of these men were straight up liars. Worse in fact.

You are right. History (as recorded by the world) is muddy at best. This is why one must have direct revelation from God to know that Jesus is the Christ, that Joseph was a true prophet, and that the Church still has the keys.

I did not call you a liar (technically). I said I'd rather suppose you are a liar than Wilford.

But I do appreciate you trying to be objective.

Without revelation we can know nothing for certain. And I do know on this point for certain, as I said.

Cheers.

Just as you claim to “know” these men, including WW, are PSRs, I know just the same that they have often taught, and continue to teach, false or distorted doctrine. But hey, that’s the beauty of agency. God allows you and me to chart our own course. Mine just doesn’t coincide well with certain aspects of LDS culture.

[The Red Pill]

To cite WW’s comments as the only source to justify the transferral of “keys” is to overlook many other aspects related to this time period. I hate to burst your bubble, but many of these leaders after Joseph were liars.

I cite my personal revelation first and foremost. I know that the keys are here. It was revealed to me by God.

You have to be EXTRA careful in the territory you are walking in here.

Chad Daybell claimed things were revealed to him.
Dan Lafferty claimed things were revealed to him.
Warren Jeff's claimed things were revealed to him.

Anyone who claims to have an 800 line open to God is highly questionable...I learned this long ago. Since you are claiming to know something for the entire church and not just something personal...I would be EXTRA EXTRA careful.

President Kimball agonized for months on the blacks and the priesthood issue. It was really a no-brainer to reverse Brigham's racist dictates...but nonetheless Kimball struggled and struggled for a long time before he reached any conclusions.

Very fine line between what we want something to be and getting a revelation.

[InfoWarrior82]

I cite my personal revelation first and foremost. I know that the keys are here. It was revealed to me by God.

Maybe you should change up your questions to the Lord?

Have you asked Him if He is happy with these men?

For me, He answered that He is not happy with many things they have done. Many of which will bring destruction to the church.

For me, it wasn't even a question I thought was possible to ask until relatively recently.

Also, you are aware of what D&C 121 says about keys, right?

Was Alma the Elder set apart with keys and priesthood office under King Noah? If not, how was he able to baptize and confer the gift of the HG later on?

[HereWeGo]

To cite WW’s comments as the only source to justify the transferral of “keys” is to overlook many other aspects related to this time period. I hate to burst your bubble, but many of these leaders after Joseph were liars.

I cite my personal revelation first and foremost. I know that the keys are here. It was revealed to me by God.

You have to be EXTRA careful in the territory you are walking in here.

Chad Daybell claimed things were revealed to him.
Dan Lafferty claimed things were revealed to him.
Warren Jeff's claimed things were revealed to him.

Anyone who claims to have an 800 line open to God is highly questionable...I learned this long ago. Since you are claiming to know something for the entire church and not just something personal...I would be EXTRA EXTRA careful.

This is why warning lights go off in my head on anyone who tries to shore up their position by pulling the personal revelation card (Also known as the God-Card). Personal revelation is to be kept to himself or those whom he/she is over. Eyes should be open wide when someone tries to convince others by using the God-Card.

[Shawn Henry]

“Brethren, I have desired to live to see this temple built. I shall never live to see it, but you will. I have sealed upon your heads all the keys of the kingdom of God. I have sealed upon you every key, power, principle that the God of heaven has revealed to me. Now, no matter where I may go or what I may do, the kingdom rests upon you.”

And here comes the non-contemporary, non-substantiated, 4 decades later, twisted history.

Wilford Woodruff in 1889. Bull Crap!

Every historian knows that is not what Joseph said. He didn't even say that to the 12, he said to the Council of Fifty and he did not say 'every key'. He said keys of the kingdom.

No professional writing about the "last charge" includes this rubbish.

Are you really going to sit here and lie, claiming that Joseph received and produced a revelation appointing BY and that the church new about it?

It never happened. Section 43 never happened, it was violated.

You don't think that just maybe BY or any member of the 12 would have mentioned this at the succession crisis. Did any of them say, "We have a revelation from Joseph", or, "Joseph wrote this letter".

Don't you think they would have presented this information at the vote to help sway it their way. What kind of prophet needs to get voted in anyway. No call from God. No revelation from God. Just a majority vote, how inspiring.

If you are confused about what this process would look like, just read section 124. Read and see how an appointment actually happens. Hyrum was appointed equal with Joseph and as church patriarch. The calling came through a revelation and the church was presented the revelation. Does that sound like the way BY came to power?

[Shawn Henry]

Maybe you should change up your questions to the Lord?

Right! One would first have to understand what keys are and understand all the different ways the Lord could answer that question.

It is obviously the wrong question to ask, "Are the keys of the Kingdom here".

Any key of the Kingdom belongs to the Kingdom. An Aaronic priesthood key belongs to the Kingdom so if those keys remained with the church then the church has the keys of the Kingdom.

Too bad he didn't know to ask, "What keys are here and what keys were taken".

He obviously only allowed the Lord to give one answer by asking the wrong question.

We are clearly dealing with the ObeOne the got his arse kicked by Count Dooku twice, not the ObeOne who cut Darth Maul in half.

[Obeone]

“Brethren, I have desired to live to see this temple built. I shall never live to see it, but you will. I have sealed upon your heads all the keys of the kingdom of God. I have sealed upon you every key, power, principle that the God of heaven has revealed to me. Now, no matter where I may go or what I may do, the kingdom rests upon you.”

And here comes the non-contemporary, non-substantiated, 4 decades later, twisted history.

Wilford Woodruff in 1889. Bull Crap!

Every historian knows that is not what Joseph said. He didn't even say that to the 12, he said to the Council of Fifty and he did not say 'every key'. He said keys of the kingdom.

No professional writing about the "last charge" includes this rubbish.

Are you really going to sit here and lie, claiming that Joseph received and produced a revelation appointing BY and that the church new about it?

It never happened. Section 43 never happened, it was violated.

You don't think that just maybe BY or any member of the 12 would have mentioned this at the succession crisis. Did any of them say, "We have a revelation from Joseph", or, "Joseph wrote this letter".

Don't you think they would have presented this information at the vote to help sway it their way. What kind of prophet needs to get voted in anyway. No call from God. No revelation from God. Just a majority vote, how inspiring.

If you are confused about what this process would look like, just read section 124. Read and see how an appointment actually happens. Hyrum was appointed equal with Joseph and as church patriarch. The calling came through a revelation and the church was presented the revelation. Does that sound like the way BY came to power?

You just acknowledged that Joseph conferred the keys of the kingdom upon them.

Do you also need a letter?

[Obeone]

Maybe you should change up your questions to the Lord?

Right! One would first have to understand what keys are and understand all the different ways the Lord could answer that question.

It is obviously the wrong question to ask, "Are the keys of the Kingdom here".

Any key of the Kingdom belongs to the Kingdom. An Aaronic priesthood key belongs to the Kingdom so if those keys remained with the church then the church has the keys of the Kingdom.

Too bad he didn't know to ask, "What keys are here and what keys were taken".

He obviously only allowed the Lord to give one answer by asking the wrong question.

We are clearly dealing with the ObeOne the got his arse kicked by Count Dooku twice, not the ObeOne who cut Darth Maul in half.

All the keys of the kingdom of God on earth, including the sealing power, the power to seal in heaven and on earth.
These are the keys that were conferred upon Brigham Young and the Twelve.

These keys are still with the Church.

That is the knowledge I have from God.

[InfoWarrior82]

Maybe you should change up your questions to the Lord?

Right! One would first have to understand what keys are and understand all the different ways the Lord could answer that question.

It is obviously the wrong question to ask, "Are the keys of the Kingdom here".

Any key of the Kingdom belongs to the Kingdom. An Aaronic priesthood key belongs to the Kingdom so if those keys remained with the church then the church has the keys of the Kingdom.

Too bad he didn't know to ask, "What keys are here and what keys were taken".

He obviously only allowed the Lord to give one answer by asking the wrong question.

We are clearly dealing with the ObeOne the got his arse kicked by Count Dooku twice, not the ObeOne who cut Darth Maul in half.

All the keys of the kingdom of God on earth, including the sealing power, the power to seal in heaven and on earth.
These are the keys that were conferred upon Brigham Young and the Twelve.

These keys are still with the Church.

That is the knowledge I have from God.

Perhaps, but would you like to respond to anything I said?

[HereWeGo]

Maybe you should change up your questions to the Lord?

Right! One would first have to understand what keys are and understand all the different ways the Lord could answer that question.

It is obviously the wrong question to ask, "Are the keys of the Kingdom here".

Any key of the Kingdom belongs to the Kingdom. An Aaronic priesthood key belongs to the Kingdom so if those keys remained with the church then the church has the keys of the Kingdom.

Too bad he didn't know to ask, "What keys are here and what keys were taken".

He obviously only allowed the Lord to give one answer by asking the wrong question.

We are clearly dealing with the ObeOne the got his arse kicked by Count Dooku twice, not the ObeOne who cut Darth Maul in half.

One shouldn't even ask questions of the Lord if he isn't open minded enough to accept the possibility that he could be wrong. A defender of the corporation is closed off to the possibility that he may be wrong. The Lord won't answer someone who is closed minded. Personal experience.

[Shawn Henry]

All the keys of the kingdom of God on earth, including the sealing power, the power to seal in heaven and on earth.
These are the keys that were conferred upon Brigham Young and the Twelve.

These keys are still with the Church.

No such keys were conferred on BY and the twelve. If so, tell me their ordinations dates, lest you appear to be lying.

As stated, the Council of Fifty was charged with bearing off the Kingdom and this included non-members and women. Joseph never ordained anyone nor does any member of the 12 claim to have a physical ordination.

The church having the keys of the "preparatory gospel" are the most you could lay claim to.

[Obeone]

All the keys of the kingdom of God on earth, including the sealing power, the power to seal in heaven and on earth.
These are the keys that were conferred upon Brigham Young and the Twelve.

These keys are still with the Church.

No such keys were conferred on BY and the twelve. If so, tell me their ordinations dates, lest you appear to be lying.

As stated, the Council of Fifty was charged with bearing off the Kingdom and this included non-members and women. Joseph never ordained anyone nor does any member of the 12 claim to have a physical ordination.

The church having the keys of the "preparatory gospel" are the most you could lay claim to.

“Will you insult the Priesthood? Is that all the knowledge you have of the office of an Apostle? Do you not know that the man who receives the Apostleship, receives all the keys that ever were, or that can be, conferred upon mortal man? What are you talking about? I am astonished!”

-- Joseph Smith

[Shawn Henry]

“Will you insult the Priesthood? Is that all the knowledge you have of the office of an Apostle? Do you not know that the man who receives the Apostleship, receives all the keys that ever were, or that can be, conferred upon mortal man? What are you talking about? I am astonished!”

-- Joseph Smith

Joseph didn't say that, plus it makes no sense. "All the keys that ever were", is the tell here that gives this quote away.

The Lord is quite clear in the D&C that apostles have different keys than the First Presidency, who were actually ordained PSR's. Why not just ordain PSR's to be Apostles instead. If the Q12 had all the keys, it would make no sense for them to have no jurisdiction within the Stakes of Zion.

Whenever a First Presidency member was chosen, he was never taken from the 12. If the 12 had all the keys, then the Seventy and the Stake Presidencies would have all the keys as well.

The Lord set the standard by calling every PSR himself through a revelation to the church, until the Q12 voted themselves to the head of the church, then revelatory calls ceased.

[tribrac]

God gave us voting machines. God gave us mail in voting.

[Cruiserdude]

God gave us voting machines. God gave us mail in voting.

You working on getting your red chair up on the stand?

[tribrac]

Nah, working off my frustrations. Sarcasm is my outlet. Better than kicking cats as they say. Still it is probably beneath my best self.

[Cruiserdude]

Nah, working off my frustrations. Sarcasm is my outlet. Better than kicking cats as they say.

Oh cmon..I'm on to you, hermano. I get a portion of my daily laughs from your sarcasm

[HVDC]

Nah, working off my frustrations. Sarcasm is my outlet. Better than kicking cats as they say. Still it is probably beneath my best self.

Not at all.

A fine sense of sarcasm is a sign of a superior mind.

Understanding it however.

Often takes a finer mind.

Sir H

[BenMcCrea]

To cite WW’s comments as the only source to justify the transferral of “keys” is to overlook many other aspects related to this time period. I hate to burst your bubble, but many of these leaders after Joseph were liars.

I cite my personal revelation first and foremost. I know that the keys are here. It was revealed to me by God.

Wilford Woodruff's statement simply gives the context that makes things clearer. I know that he held the keys as he said he did.

As for Wilford Woodruff being a liar, I know by revelation of God that he was not.

Cheers.

How did God reveal this to you? What were the exact words which he spoke to you?

[Obeone]

To cite WW’s comments as the only source to justify the transferral of “keys” is to overlook many other aspects related to this time period. I hate to burst your bubble, but many of these leaders after Joseph were liars.

I cite my personal revelation first and foremost. I know that the keys are here. It was revealed to me by God.

Wilford Woodruff's statement simply gives the context that makes things clearer. I know that he held the keys as he said he did.

As for Wilford Woodruff being a liar, I know by revelation of God that he was not.

Cheers.

How did God reveal this to you? What were the exact words which he spoke to you?

I already told you the words. And as for How: the Spirit speaks to spirit and reveals things on the inside in the way that no one else can.
His voice is peace, love, joy, meekness and light and truth. This is how I know it is of God.

Cheers.

[HereWeGo]

I cite my personal revelation first and foremost. I know that the keys are here. It was revealed to me by God.

As for Wilford Woodruff being a liar, I know by revelation of God that he was not.

I get concerned when someone pulls out the "God-Card". It's kind of like the false statement "When the Prophet speaks, the discussion is over". I am not calling into question anything that the Lord reveals to a person. Personal revelation is just that--for the person receiving it. It is not to be used to fortify a discussion.

[Obeone]

I cite my personal revelation first and foremost. I know that the keys are here. It was revealed to me by God.

As for Wilford Woodruff being a liar, I know by revelation of God that he was not.

I get concerned when someone pulls out the "God-Card". It's kind of like the false statement "When the Prophet speaks, the discussion is over". I am not calling into question anything that the Lord reveals to a person. Personal revelation is just that--for the person receiving it. It is not to be used to fortify a discussion.

At the end of the day, we know nothing, except by revelation.
All the discussion and study are simply helpers to get us into a state where we are ready to receive it.