Special Fireside in Nevada

[Subcomandante]

I think the church is building temples as fast as possible because, for the moment, we can. In order to complete all the temple work that must be done before the end, we need a lot of temples all over the world. There is a time coming, not far off, when the church will not be able to construct temples any longer. Build them while you can.

Why build temples all over the world when we believe in a literal gathering?

According to Holland, we no longer believe in a literal gathering. Seriously, he said that. Dixie College Devotional, December 2012.

“Our Call Is to Build Zion Where We Are

One of the many unique characteristics of our dispensation, this the dispensation of the fulness of times—the last and greatest of all dispensations—is the changing nature of how we establish the kingdom of God on earth. You see, one of the truly exciting things about this dispensation is that it is a time of mighty, accelerated change. And one thing that has changed is that the Church of God will never again flee. It will never again leave Ur in order to leave Haran, in order to leave Canaan, in order to leave Jerusalem, in order to leave England, in order to leave Kirtland, in order to leave Nauvoo, in order to go who knows where. No, as Brigham Young said for us all, “We have been kicked out of the frying-pan into the fire, out of the fire into the middle of the floor, and here we are and here we will stay.”11

Of course, that statement wasn’t a comment about the Salt Lake Valley only or even the Wasatch Front generally; it became a statement for the members of the Church all over the world. In these last days, in this our dispensation, we would become mature enough to stop running. We would become mature enough to plant our feet and our families and our foundations in every nation, kindred, tongue, and people permanently. Zion would be everywhere—wherever the Church is. And with that change—one of the mighty changes of the last days—we no longer think of Zion as where we are going to live; we think of it as how we are going to live.”

Wow! That doesn't say anything like what you claimed it did!

Yep. people here are missing the forest for an errant twig that has fallen down. Not even a tree. A twig trampled on by a thousand squirrels and half covered in fallen foliage.

[HVDC]

I think the church is building temples as fast as possible because, for the moment, we can. In order to complete all the temple work that must be done before the end, we need a lot of temples all over the world. There is a time coming, not far off, when the church will not be able to construct temples any longer. Build them while you can.

Why build temples all over the world when we believe in a literal gathering?

According to Holland, we no longer believe in a literal gathering. Seriously, he said that. Dixie College Devotional, December 2012.

“Our Call Is to Build Zion Where We Are

One of the many unique characteristics of our dispensation, this the dispensation of the fulness of times—the last and greatest of all dispensations—is the changing nature of how we establish the kingdom of God on earth. You see, one of the truly exciting things about this dispensation is that it is a time of mighty, accelerated change. And one thing that has changed is that the Church of God will never again flee. It will never again leave Ur in order to leave Haran, in order to leave Canaan, in order to leave Jerusalem, in order to leave England, in order to leave Kirtland, in order to leave Nauvoo, in order to go who knows where. No, as Brigham Young said for us all, “We have been kicked out of the frying-pan into the fire, out of the fire into the middle of the floor, and here we are and here we will stay.”11

Of course, that statement wasn’t a comment about the Salt Lake Valley only or even the Wasatch Front generally; it became a statement for the members of the Church all over the world. In these last days, in this our dispensation, we would become mature enough to stop running. We would become mature enough to plant our feet and our families and our foundations in every nation, kindred, tongue, and people permanently. Zion would be everywhere—wherever the Church is. And with that change—one of the mighty changes of the last days—we no longer think of Zion as where we are going to live; we think of it as how we are going to live.”

Maybe this is Exhibit A for why they don’t want to record anything. Holland single-handedly obliterated the 10th article of faith, rewriting both scripture and doctrine, and he did it with complete impunity.

What, really, do we believe any more?

Whatever we want.

Sir H

[Pazooka]

Why build temples all over the world when we believe in a literal gathering?

According to Holland, we no longer believe in a literal gathering. Seriously, he said that. Dixie College Devotional, December 2012.

“Our Call Is to Build Zion Where We Are

One of the many unique characteristics of our dispensation, this the dispensation of the fulness of times—the last and greatest of all dispensations—is the changing nature of how we establish the kingdom of God on earth. You see, one of the truly exciting things about this dispensation is that it is a time of mighty, accelerated change. And one thing that has changed is that the Church of God will never again flee. It will never again leave Ur in order to leave Haran, in order to leave Canaan, in order to leave Jerusalem, in order to leave England, in order to leave Kirtland, in order to leave Nauvoo, in order to go who knows where. No, as Brigham Young said for us all, “We have been kicked out of the frying-pan into the fire, out of the fire into the middle of the floor, and here we are and here we will stay.”11

Of course, that statement wasn’t a comment about the Salt Lake Valley only or even the Wasatch Front generally; it became a statement for the members of the Church all over the world. In these last days, in this our dispensation, we would become mature enough to stop running. We would become mature enough to plant our feet and our families and our foundations in every nation, kindred, tongue, and people permanently. Zion would be everywhere—wherever the Church is. And with that change—one of the mighty changes of the last days—we no longer think of Zion as where we are going to live; we think of it as how we are going to live.”

Maybe this is Exhibit A for why they don’t want to record anything. Holland single-handedly obliterated the 10th article of faith, rewriting both scripture and doctrine, and he did it with complete impunity.

What, really, do we believe any more?

Whatever we want.

Sir H

Whatever pays the bills.

Sis P

[InfoWarrior82]

I wonder why Nelson is so bullish on temples?

Sure seems like he's drunk on the idea... MOAR teeemples, I'll have anoootherrr plz...

It doesn't seem very prudent to keep upping the ante and to keep committing so many resources.

It seems to me that RMN doesn't believe that there are any lean times coming, let alone the Lord anytime soon

I think the church is building temples as fast as possible because, for the moment, we can. In order to complete all the temple work that must be done before the end, we need a lot of temples all over the world. There is a time coming, not far off, when the church will not be able to construct temples any longer. Build them while you can.

Why build temples all over the world when we believe in a literal gathering?

Immigration laws. Pretty darn simple if you ask me.

Now when the Lord hath begun to make an end to all nations, THEN we can talk about a literal gathering to one place.

They changed what the Lord said, bro.

You think the Lord cares about immigration laws?

Do you really believe that we won't be literally gathering to one location?

Even with immigration laws, they could still say "apply for citizenship ASAP. We'll see you there!"

[HVDC]

Simple instruction.

Find lost sheep.

Gather True Israel.

We don't do either.

We gather tares and call them wheat.

Burn and reject the wheat.

Mixed up we are.

Too hard it was.

God judges Nations.

We clearly are not one of those anymore.

Sir H

[Subcomandante]

I think the church is building temples as fast as possible because, for the moment, we can. In order to complete all the temple work that must be done before the end, we need a lot of temples all over the world. There is a time coming, not far off, when the church will not be able to construct temples any longer. Build them while you can.

Why build temples all over the world when we believe in a literal gathering?

Immigration laws. Pretty darn simple if you ask me.

Now when the Lord hath begun to make an end to all nations, THEN we can talk about a literal gathering to one place.

They changed what the Lord said, bro.

You think the Lord cares about immigration laws?

Do you really believe that we won't be literally gathering to one location?

Even with immigration laws, they could still say "apply for citizenship ASAP. We'll see you there!"

If you knew how immigration laws worked you wouldn't be so flippant with your response.

There are people who apply for green cards that take YEARS, sometimes even over a DECADE to be able to enter into the United States. I can tell you that after the pandemic monkey-wrenched everything down here with the local embassy, the waiting list for an appointment is at least until 2025 in many cases.

Many of the people that are being baptized into the Church are dirt-poor according to American standards. Oftentimes when people apply for requisite visas they are turned back because of that very reason. The only way they would see the light-of-day in the United States would be if they immigrated into the country ILLEGALLY.

What if the people being baptized were from Yemen, Syria, Iraq, or Iran? Or other countries where the previous president instituted travel bans? Guess they are screwed then should he or another like him return to power.

So what happens now?

The leaders tell the members "Grow where you are planted." Some do move to other places but they do so within the legal bounds of the law, which is what the Church tells members to do when they decide to move to other countries.

A physical gathering of all or even a majority of the members to one location at present is not possible. But when the situation arises to the point where there will be no more countries because they are in the process of being ruined (if not already so), then such a physical gathering becomes possible.

Everything has to be done in order and not in chaos. What you and the others are proposing would result in chaos.

[CuriousThinker]

Why build temples all over the world when we believe in a literal gathering?

Immigration laws. Pretty darn simple if you ask me.

Now when the Lord hath begun to make an end to all nations, THEN we can talk about a literal gathering to one place.

They changed what the Lord said, bro.

You think the Lord cares about immigration laws?

Do you really believe that we won't be literally gathering to one location?

Even with immigration laws, they could still say "apply for citizenship ASAP. We'll see you there!"

If you knew how immigration laws worked you wouldn't be so flippant with your response.

There are people who apply for green cards that take YEARS, sometimes even over a DECADE to be able to enter into the United States. I can tell you that after the pandemic monkey-wrenched everything down here with the local embassy, the waiting list for an appointment is at least until 2025 in many cases.

Many of the people that are being baptized into the Church are dirt-poor according to American standards. Oftentimes when people apply for requisite visas they are turned back because of that very reason. The only way they would see the light-of-day in the United States would be if they immigrated into the country ILLEGALLY.

What if the people being baptized were from Yemen, Syria, Iraq, or Iran? Or other countries where the previous president instituted travel bans? Guess they are screwed then should he or another like him return to power.

So what happens now?

The leaders tell the members "Grow where you are planted." Some do move to other places but they do so within the legal bounds of the law, which is what the Church tells members to do when they decide to move to other countries.

A physical gathering of all or even a majority of the members to one location at present is not possible. But when the situation arises to the point where there will be no more countries because they are in the process of being ruined (if not already so), then such a physical gathering becomes possible.

Everything has to be done in order and not in chaos. What you and the others are proposing would result in chaos.

While I agree with you on some points, Trump was not the only previous president to institute travel bans. Research Obama and what he did. Even more than Trump at times.

[HereWeGo]

According to Holland, we no longer believe in a literal gathering. Seriously, he said that. Dixie College Devotional, December 2012.
“Our Call Is to Build Zion Where We Are
One of the many unique characteristics of our dispensation, this the dispensation of the fulness of times—the last and greatest of all dispensations—is the changing nature of how we establish the kingdom of God on earth. You see, one of the truly exciting things about this dispensation is that it is a time of mighty, accelerated change. And one thing that has changed is that the Church of God will never again flee. It will never again leave Ur in order to leave Haran, in order to leave Canaan, in order to leave Jerusalem, in order to leave England, in order to leave Kirtland, in order to leave Nauvoo, in order to go who knows where. No, as Brigham Young said for us all, “We have been kicked out of the frying-pan into the fire, out of the fire into the middle of the floor, and here we are and here we will stay.”11

Of course, that statement wasn’t a comment about the Salt Lake Valley only or even the Wasatch Front generally; it became a statement for the members of the Church all over the world. In these last days, in this our dispensation, we would become mature enough to stop running. We would become mature enough to plant our feet and our families and our foundations in every nation, kindred, tongue, and people permanently. Zion would be everywhere—wherever the Church is. And with that change—one of the mighty changes of the last days—we no longer think of Zion as where we are going to live; we think of it as how we are going to live.”

I looked this up and it was actually on September 14, 2012. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bro ... g?lang=eng

Thanks. This is a great quote.

[InfoWarrior82]

Why build temples all over the world when we believe in a literal gathering?

Immigration laws. Pretty darn simple if you ask me.

Now when the Lord hath begun to make an end to all nations, THEN we can talk about a literal gathering to one place.

They changed what the Lord said, bro.

You think the Lord cares about immigration laws?

Do you really believe that we won't be literally gathering to one location?

Even with immigration laws, they could still say "apply for citizenship ASAP. We'll see you there!"

If you knew how immigration laws worked you wouldn't be so flippant with your response.

There are people who apply for green cards that take YEARS, sometimes even over a DECADE to be able to enter into the United States. I can tell you that after the pandemic monkey-wrenched everything down here with the local embassy, the waiting list for an appointment is at least until 2025 in many cases.

Many of the people that are being baptized into the Church are dirt-poor according to American standards. Oftentimes when people apply for requisite visas they are turned back because of that very reason. The only way they would see the light-of-day in the United States would be if they immigrated into the country ILLEGALLY.

What if the people being baptized were from Yemen, Syria, Iraq, or Iran? Or other countries where the previous president instituted travel bans? Guess they are screwed then should he or another like him return to power.

So what happens now?

The leaders tell the members "Grow where you are planted." Some do move to other places but they do so within the legal bounds of the law, which is what the Church tells members to do when they decide to move to other countries.

A physical gathering of all or even a majority of the members to one location at present is not possible. But when the situation arises to the point where there will be no more countries because they are in the process of being ruined (if not already so), then such a physical gathering becomes possible.

Everything has to be done in order and not in chaos. What you and the others are proposing would result in chaos.

That's not even the point.


The doctrine of Jesus Christ is:

There is only a literal, physical, gathering.

We can't proselyte in many countries, yet, we still make every attempt to get into those countries. We don't throw up our arms and say "welp! I guess those people are out of luck!" The position still remains that we have faith that the Lord will provide a way for it to happen. Why did we give up on the gathering of Israel?

It's not about the fact that it takes a long time for people to get citizenship. It's about abandoning the doctrine of Christ.

[ransomme]

I think the church is building temples as fast as possible because, for the moment, we can. In order to complete all the temple work that must be done before the end, we need a lot of temples all over the world. There is a time coming, not far off, when the church will not be able to construct temples any longer. Build them while you can.

Why build temples all over the world when we believe in a literal gathering?

According to Holland, we no longer believe in a literal gathering. Seriously, he said that. Dixie College Devotional, December 2012.

“Our Call Is to Build Zion Where We Are

One of the many unique characteristics of our dispensation, this the dispensation of the fulness of times—the last and greatest of all dispensations—is the changing nature of how we establish the kingdom of God on earth. You see, one of the truly exciting things about this dispensation is that it is a time of mighty, accelerated change. And one thing that has changed is that the Church of God will never again flee. It will never again leave Ur in order to leave Haran, in order to leave Canaan, in order to leave Jerusalem, in order to leave England, in order to leave Kirtland, in order to leave Nauvoo, in order to go who knows where. No, as Brigham Young said for us all, “We have been kicked out of the frying-pan into the fire, out of the fire into the middle of the floor, and here we are and here we will stay.”11

Of course, that statement wasn’t a comment about the Salt Lake Valley only or even the Wasatch Front generally; it became a statement for the members of the Church all over the world. In these last days, in this our dispensation, we would become mature enough to stop running. We would become mature enough to plant our feet and our families and our foundations in every nation, kindred, tongue, and people permanently. Zion would be everywhere—wherever the Church is. And with that change—one of the mighty changes of the last days—we no longer think of Zion as where we are going to live; we think of it as how we are going to live.”

Maybe this is Exhibit A for why they don’t want to record anything. Holland single-handedly obliterated the 10th article of faith, rewriting both scripture and doctrine, and he did it with complete impunity.

What, really, do we believe any more?

I suppose that he is really embracing #11. He's a pioneer, pushing the boundaries into new territories.

"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."

[ransomme]

I wonder why Nelson is so bullish on temples?

Sure seems like he's drunk on the idea... MOAR teeemples, I'll have anoootherrr plz...

It doesn't seem very prudent to keep upping the ante and to keep committing so many resources.

It seems to me that RMN doesn't believe that there are any lean times coming, let alone the Lord anytime soon

I think the church is building temples as fast as possible because, for the moment, we can. In order to complete all the temple work that must be done before the end, we need a lot of temples all over the world. There is a time coming, not far off, when the church will not be able to construct temples any longer. Build them while you can.

Why build temples all over the world when we believe in a literal gathering?

Immigration laws. Pretty darn simple if you ask me.

Now when the Lord hath begun to make an end to all nations, THEN we can talk about a literal gathering to one place.

They are simple. If you want to come to America just walk across the border from Mexico.

But if you want to do it legally the results may vary.

[SempiternalHarbinger]

Why build temples all over the world when we believe in a literal gathering?

According to Holland, we no longer believe in a literal gathering. Seriously, he said that. Dixie College Devotional, December 2012.

“Our Call Is to Build Zion Where We Are

One of the many unique characteristics of our dispensation, this the dispensation of the fulness of times—the last and greatest of all dispensations—is the changing nature of how we establish the kingdom of God on earth. You see, one of the truly exciting things about this dispensation is that it is a time of mighty, accelerated change. And one thing that has changed is that the Church of God will never again flee. It will never again leave Ur in order to leave Haran, in order to leave Canaan, in order to leave Jerusalem, in order to leave England, in order to leave Kirtland, in order to leave Nauvoo, in order to go who knows where. No, as Brigham Young said for us all, “We have been kicked out of the frying-pan into the fire, out of the fire into the middle of the floor, and here we are and here we will stay.”11

Of course, that statement wasn’t a comment about the Salt Lake Valley only or even the Wasatch Front generally; it became a statement for the members of the Church all over the world. In these last days, in this our dispensation, we would become mature enough to stop running. We would become mature enough to plant our feet and our families and our foundations in every nation, kindred, tongue, and people permanently. Zion would be everywhere—wherever the Church is. And with that change—one of the mighty changes of the last days—we no longer think of Zion as where we are going to live; we think of it as how we are going to live."

Wow! That doesn't say anything like what you claimed it did!

Yep. people here are missing the forest for an errant twig that has fallen down. Not even a tree. A twig trampled on by a thousand squirrels and half covered in fallen foliage.

Artaxerxes & Subcomandante, why don't you two post some scriptures that support Holland's teachings regarding Zion? Please persuade me because everything I have read strongly suggests that Elder Hollands' teaching cannot be supported by scripture and in fact contradicts scripture and the teaching of Joseph Smith... (the Saints will not be asked to flee or move again)

“If any man writes to you, or preaches to you, doctrines contrary to the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or the Book of Doctrine & Covenants, set him down as an impostor... Try them by the principles contained in the acknowledged word of God; if they preach, or teach, or practice contrary to that, disfellowship them; cut them off from among you as useless and dangerous branches.” (– Joseph Smith, Jr., Times & Seasons Vol 5, pg 490)

So let's see those scriptures.

A close look at D&C 45:64-75 clearly says that the righteous will be gathered from all nations of the earth and shall come to Zion. And that all those who will not take up their swords against their neighbor must flee to zion for safety. The glory of the Lord shall be there and the terror of the Lord will too. Such that the wicked will be afraid to go up against zion.

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “Without Zion, and a place of deliverance, we must fall; because the time is near when the sun will be darkened, and the moon turn to blood, and the stars fall from heaven, and the earth reel to and fro. Then, if this is the case, and if we are not sanctified and gathered to the places God has appointed, with all our former professions and our great love for the Bible, we must fall; we cannot stand; we cannot be saved; for God will gather out his Saints from the Gentiles, and then comes desolation and destruction, and none can escape except the pure in heart who are gathered.” (Teachings, p. 71)

Now try squaring ^^^ with Holland's teachings above on the topic. If you can't back it up with scripture, I think I will continue to cut Holland off as useless and dangerous branches. The church, the members, and the leaders cannot stand and will fail if we continue down the path Holland is preaching. The end result is desolation and destruction according to JS and the scriptures. This really just shows how oblivious Holland is about the Redemption of Zion and signs of the times.

[ransomme]

Why build temples all over the world when we believe in a literal gathering?

Immigration laws. Pretty darn simple if you ask me.

Now when the Lord hath begun to make an end to all nations, THEN we can talk about a literal gathering to one place.

They changed what the Lord said, bro.

You think the Lord cares about immigration laws?

Do you really believe that we won't be literally gathering to one location?

Even with immigration laws, they could still say "apply for citizenship ASAP. We'll see you there!"

If you knew how immigration laws worked you wouldn't be so flippant with your response.

There are people who apply for green cards that take YEARS, sometimes even over a DECADE to be able to enter into the United States. I can tell you that after the pandemic monkey-wrenched everything down here with the local embassy, the waiting list for an appointment is at least until 2025 in many cases.

Many of the people that are being baptized into the Church are dirt-poor according to American standards. Oftentimes when people apply for requisite visas they are turned back because of that very reason. The only way they would see the light-of-day in the United States would be if they immigrated into the country ILLEGALLY.

What if the people being baptized were from Yemen, Syria, Iraq, or Iran? Or other countries where the previous president instituted travel bans? Guess they are screwed then should he or another like him return to power.

So what happens now?

The leaders tell the members "Grow where you are planted." Some do move to other places but they do so within the legal bounds of the law, which is what the Church tells members to do when they decide to move to other countries.

A physical gathering of all or even a majority of the members to one location at present is not possible. But when the situation arises to the point where there will be no more countries because they are in the process of being ruined (if not already so), then such a physical gathering becomes possible.

Everything has to be done in order and not in chaos. What you and the others are proposing would result in chaos.

First if a complete gathering isn't impossible, not with the Lord.

Secondly, all members aren't going to be gathered. The Gathering will only be for those that will be gathered.

So perhaps it's fine that they don't preach a gathering to public.

[HVDC]

According to Holland, we no longer believe in a literal gathering. Seriously, he said that. Dixie College Devotional, December 2012.

“Our Call Is to Build Zion Where We Are

One of the many unique characteristics of our dispensation, this the dispensation of the fulness of times—the last and greatest of all dispensations—is the changing nature of how we establish the kingdom of God on earth. You see, one of the truly exciting things about this dispensation is that it is a time of mighty, accelerated change. And one thing that has changed is that the Church of God will never again flee. It will never again leave Ur in order to leave Haran, in order to leave Canaan, in order to leave Jerusalem, in order to leave England, in order to leave Kirtland, in order to leave Nauvoo, in order to go who knows where. No, as Brigham Young said for us all, “We have been kicked out of the frying-pan into the fire, out of the fire into the middle of the floor, and here we are and here we will stay.”11

Of course, that statement wasn’t a comment about the Salt Lake Valley only or even the Wasatch Front generally; it became a statement for the members of the Church all over the world. In these last days, in this our dispensation, we would become mature enough to stop running. We would become mature enough to plant our feet and our families and our foundations in every nation, kindred, tongue, and people permanently. Zion would be everywhere—wherever the Church is. And with that change—one of the mighty changes of the last days—we no longer think of Zion as where we are going to live; we think of it as how we are going to live.”

Maybe this is Exhibit A for why they don’t want to record anything. Holland single-handedly obliterated the 10th article of faith, rewriting both scripture and doctrine, and he did it with complete impunity.

What, really, do we believe any more?

Whatever we want.

Sir H

Whatever pays the bills.

Sis P

Don't think I didn't notice

Sir H

[blitzinstripes]

One thought I had is that with the economic slowdown, I suspect tithing receipts are probably in the toilet, so if I were setting up a "drinking game" I suspect paying a full and generous tithing will be at least mentioned, if not repeatedly so.

The god send is not really in vogue so I suspect it will not be mentioned much, if at all.

Missionary work is also a good way to get full tithe payers - wouldn't it be hilarious if people were counselled to proselyte in more well-off neighborhoods since we seem to believe in a prosperity gospel, so God clearly wants those better off to be the focus of getting saved...

Bingo. Coming off a tough fiscal year for the church. Profits (and prophets) are miserable this year. Look for a big push on tithing. Maybe they will raise it to 15% to cover the corporate losses?

[HVDC]

One thought I had is that with the economic slowdown, I suspect tithing receipts are probably in the toilet, so if I were setting up a "drinking game" I suspect paying a full and generous tithing will be at least mentioned, if not repeatedly so.

The god send is not really in vogue so I suspect it will not be mentioned much, if at all.

Missionary work is also a good way to get full tithe payers - wouldn't it be hilarious if people were counselled to proselyte in more well-off neighborhoods since we seem to believe in a prosperity gospel, so God clearly wants those better off to be the focus of getting saved...

Bingo. Coming off a tough fiscal year for the church. Profits (and prophets) are miserable this year. Look for a big push on tithing. Maybe they will raise it to 15% to cover the corporate losses?

Why not?

They own us.

Joint owners anyway.

With corporation of the United States Government.

Two Rings of the Ten.

Usury being the One Ring that rules us all.

Sir H

[Artaxerxes]

One thought I had is that with the economic slowdown, I suspect tithing receipts are probably in the toilet, so if I were setting up a "drinking game" I suspect paying a full and generous tithing will be at least mentioned, if not repeatedly so.

The god send is not really in vogue so I suspect it will not be mentioned much, if at all.

Missionary work is also a good way to get full tithe payers - wouldn't it be hilarious if people were counselled to proselyte in more well-off neighborhoods since we seem to believe in a prosperity gospel, so God clearly wants those better off to be the focus of getting saved...

Bingo. Coming off a tough fiscal year for the church. Profits (and prophets) are miserable this year. Look for a big push on tithing. Maybe they will raise it to 15% to cover the corporate losses?

"This thing that has happened many times in the history of the church (an economic slowdown) will SURELY cause the church to react in an unprecedented way!!!!"

[mtmom]

They won’t have anything new or important to say.

1) Profit make you smrt!
2) Profit have revelation every night!
3) If you follow smrt Profit you will get to heaven!
4) If you no follow smrt Profit you go to..... Starbucks.
5) Have you heard that we have a smrt Profit?
6) Where will you go if no follow smrt Profit?
7) It's Sunday - where my money at?
8) We thank you O God for a smrt Profit!
9) Amen!
10) P.S. - Profit!

What did I miss?

P.S.S - I just saved you 1.25 hours. You're welcome.

11. Covenant Path, Covenant Path, Covenant Path
12. Temples, Temples, Temples

Hosea 8: 14
For Israel hath forgotten his Maker, and buildeth temples

[Artaxerxes]

According to Holland, we no longer believe in a literal gathering. Seriously, he said that. Dixie College Devotional, December 2012.

“Our Call Is to Build Zion Where We Are

One of the many unique characteristics of our dispensation, this the dispensation of the fulness of times—the last and greatest of all dispensations—is the changing nature of how we establish the kingdom of God on earth. You see, one of the truly exciting things about this dispensation is that it is a time of mighty, accelerated change. And one thing that has changed is that the Church of God will never again flee. It will never again leave Ur in order to leave Haran, in order to leave Canaan, in order to leave Jerusalem, in order to leave England, in order to leave Kirtland, in order to leave Nauvoo, in order to go who knows where. No, as Brigham Young said for us all, “We have been kicked out of the frying-pan into the fire, out of the fire into the middle of the floor, and here we are and here we will stay.”11

Of course, that statement wasn’t a comment about the Salt Lake Valley only or even the Wasatch Front generally; it became a statement for the members of the Church all over the world. In these last days, in this our dispensation, we would become mature enough to stop running. We would become mature enough to plant our feet and our families and our foundations in every nation, kindred, tongue, and people permanently. Zion would be everywhere—wherever the Church is. And with that change—one of the mighty changes of the last days—we no longer think of Zion as where we are going to live; we think of it as how we are going to live."

Wow! That doesn't say anything like what you claimed it did!

Yep. people here are missing the forest for an errant twig that has fallen down. Not even a tree. A twig trampled on by a thousand squirrels and half covered in fallen foliage.

Artaxerxes & Subcomandante, why don't you two post some scriptures that support Holland's teachings regarding Zion? Please persuade me because everything I have read strongly suggests that Elder Hollands' teaching cannot be supported by scripture and in fact contradicts scripture and the teaching of Joseph Smith... (the Saints will not be asked to flee or move again)

“If any man writes to you, or preaches to you, doctrines contrary to the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or the Book of Doctrine & Covenants, set him down as an impostor... Try them by the principles contained in the acknowledged word of God; if they preach, or teach, or practice contrary to that, disfellowship them; cut them off from among you as useless and dangerous branches.” (– Joseph Smith, Jr., Times & Seasons Vol 5, pg 490)

So let's see those scriptures.

A close look at D&C 45:64-75 clearly says that the righteous will be gathered from all nations of the earth and shall come to Zion. And that all those who will not take up their swords against their neighbor must flee to zion for safety. The glory of the Lord shall be there and the terror of the Lord will too. Such that the wicked will be afraid to go up against zion.

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “Without Zion, and a place of deliverance, we must fall; because the time is near when the sun will be darkened, and the moon turn to blood, and the stars fall from heaven, and the earth reel to and fro. Then, if this is the case, and if we are not sanctified and gathered to the places God has appointed, with all our former professions and our great love for the Bible, we must fall; we cannot stand; we cannot be saved; for God will gather out his Saints from the Gentiles, and then comes desolation and destruction, and none can escape except the pure in heart who are gathered.” (Teachings, p. 71)

Now try squaring ^^^ with Holland's teachings above on the topic. If you can't back it up with scripture, I think I will continue to cut Holland off as useless and dangerous branches. The church, the members, and the leaders cannot stand and will fail if we continue down the path Holland is preaching. The end result is desolation and destruction according to JS and the scriptures. This really just shows how oblivious Holland is about the Redemption of Zion and signs of the times.

Sure: 3 Nephi. It's meant to be a parallel for our day. It shows us the different phases that we will go through. First, there was a mass gathering (3 Nephi 3). Then, there was a massive expansion (3 Nephi 6). Then, there was a tribalistic gathering (3 Nephi 7).

It seems clear that we have passed the mass gathering of 3 Nephi 3. The question now whether we are still in the expansion phase or if we've moved into the tribal phase.

[Libertas]

Here are some of the parallels for our day I see in 3 Nephi: chapter 6-breakup of the church; chapter 7-breakup of the government and introduction of the Antichrist; chapter 8-breakup of the land. All preparatory for the return of Jesus Christ.

[harakim]

Why build temples all over the world when we believe in a literal gathering?

Immigration laws. Pretty darn simple if you ask me.

Now when the Lord hath begun to make an end to all nations, THEN we can talk about a literal gathering to one place.

They changed what the Lord said, bro.

You think the Lord cares about immigration laws?

Do you really believe that we won't be literally gathering to one location?

Even with immigration laws, they could still say "apply for citizenship ASAP. We'll see you there!"

If you knew how immigration laws worked you wouldn't be so flippant with your response.

There are people who apply for green cards that take YEARS, sometimes even over a DECADE to be able to enter into the United States. I can tell you that after the pandemic monkey-wrenched everything down here with the local embassy, the waiting list for an appointment is at least until 2025 in many cases.

Many of the people that are being baptized into the Church are dirt-poor according to American standards. Oftentimes when people apply for requisite visas they are turned back because of that very reason. The only way they would see the light-of-day in the United States would be if they immigrated into the country ILLEGALLY.

What if the people being baptized were from Yemen, Syria, Iraq, or Iran? Or other countries where the previous president instituted travel bans? Guess they are screwed then should he or another like him return to power.

So what happens now?

The leaders tell the members "Grow where you are planted." Some do move to other places but they do so within the legal bounds of the law, which is what the Church tells members to do when they decide to move to other countries.

A physical gathering of all or even a majority of the members to one location at present is not possible. But when the situation arises to the point where there will be no more countries because they are in the process of being ruined (if not already so), then such a physical gathering becomes possible.

Everything has to be done in order and not in chaos. What you and the others are proposing would result in chaos.

Luckily, the church has great lawyers. I'm sure they could work something out.

[Thinker]

This is the problem with any global church. It is making decisions that do not take into account available local resources as well as unique situations that apply to that area and may not present itself elsewhere. Of course, since each temple and its location is decided by revelation this should not be an issue.

The Lord clearly wanted to keep the temples mostly empty and just push members to fill in the holes one size fits all style because that is the Savior's way. This is an incredibly wasteful use of tithing funds and unnecessary sacrifices being demanded of the members because of lack of planning and dare we say maybe even bothering to ask the Lord to begin with.

“4 reasons why projects like the new luxurious temple built by the Mormons in Haiti are unhelpful”
http://evangelicalfocus.com/blogs/4678/ ... DjSUsgY_Mw

“Let the dead bury the dead.” - Christ
viewtopic.php?p=956547#p956547

[Thinker]

David O. McKay announced in the early 1950s that the gathering had ended and members were encouraged to stay in their own lands.

He was getting slightly closer to what Christ taught.