Secret anointings and succession

[Shawn Henry]

So it is either all true or all false

Looks like TheChristian summed up things nicely with his post following yours about how faith heals.

There is nothing I could disagree with more than your above statement. There is no way God gave his stamp of approval on everything this church has taught. It is a ridiculous thought. God always allows the growth that comes from learning on our own that certain doctrines are wrong. He was not the originator of the priesthood ban, but he allowed it so that we could eventually learn to stand against it. If we have nothing but truth in the church, we never get tested and turn into thoughtless drones.

[Chris]

So it is either all true or all false

Looks like TheChristian summed up things nicely with his post following yours about how faith heals.

There is nothing I could disagree with more than your above statement. There is no way God gave his stamp of approval on everything this church has taught. It is a ridiculous thought. God always allows the growth that comes from learning on our own that certain doctrines are wrong. He was not the originator of the priesthood ban, but he allowed it so that we could eventually learn to stand against it. If we have nothing but truth in the church, we never get tested and turn into thoughtless drones.

Exactly like i thought you would say and the standard anti mormon answer..... that is not how faith works.

Like i said the lord is very clear on priestcraft and false priesthood, witchcraft etc and will never attach his blessings to false faith and false priesthoods...

You are delusional to think the lord would bestow his blessings and miracles upon this church in such a profound way if it was not sanctioned by him

You lack the intellectual self honesty with your self to consider you are wrong, and to think logically. One place you claim the lord can never lie, the prophet can never lie, and then you claim he uses false pegan priesthood to heal. You claim you trust the scriptures and then you neglect the ones on the destiny of this church, the prophecies of daniel, and the amazing prophecies of joseph. You claim anyone who has a 1st hand experience where they see a miracle about brigham recieving josephs mantle and claim they are crazy lunatics who trick themselves in to a twisted realality of false memories...... you ignore the overwhelming evidence of gods hand in this church. Which is to be seen everywhere. And you take your twisted doc philosophies with twisted scriptures .001% of logic and evidence and you state starring into the sun scorching you with the light of 99.99% of truth and say you cant see the light.

Pride cometh before the fall, and you are wrong and time is almost up to change.

I guess i will take my false priesthood and continue to heal the sick. I will continue to follow my fake holy ghost as he tells me how to serve in the church. I will thank the lord for the visions he has given me on what is coming and i will thank the lord for his special
2 comforter that surpases all peace. All the good and all the blessings come from this church and it is the only way you can ascend jacobs ladder up into heaven.

You spit and beat upon that ladder like the pharasies of old. Wanting to climb to heaven but destroying your only path to make it back

[Shawn Henry]

You lack the intellectual self honesty with your self to consider you are wrong, and to think logically.

Chris, I see you are back to venting unprocessed emotion. While telling me I can't think logically, lol.

All the healing miracles in the bible are attributed to faith. I agree that having the priesthood can add unto this power, but many heal without priesthood.

Many churches in America heal without priesthood and it is not by the power of the Devil.

"And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me."

We are not even the church in America that is best known for exercising these gifts of the spirit.

Also, just because we have some priesthood while not having more priesthood, doesn't make us guilty of priestcraft or make us a false priesthood. Many people make honest assumptions without any ill intent whatsoever.

[Chris]

You lack the intellectual self honesty with your self to consider you are wrong, and to think logically.

Chris, I see you are back to venting unprocessed emotion. While telling me I can't think logically, lol.

All the healing miracles in the bible are attributed to faith. I agree that having the priesthood can add unto this power, but many heal without priesthood.

Many churches in America heal without priesthood and it is not by the power of the Devil.

"And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me."

We are not even the church in America that is best known for exercising these gifts of the spirit.

Also, just because we have some priesthood while not having more priesthood, doesn't make us guilty of priestcraft or make us a false priesthood. Many people make honest assumptions without any ill intent whatsoever.

But you are missing the point. Yes you can heal by faith alone and many do. But when you do it through a ritual of calling anointining with oil, calling the name of the priesthood, then sealing with the priesthood. The Lord would not honor that any more than he honored pharo when he called upon his false gods and when the priest of Baal tried to call down fire from heaven......

It is how it is done that matters

[Shawn Henry]

It is how it is done that matters

It is not how it is done that matters, it is the intent of the heart that matters.

How it is done is a ritualistic, law of Moses mentality. The intent behind the actions is the higher law.

This is why the Savior healed in many untraditional ways, spitting in clay, bathing in a river, by touch, by being touched, etc. The Savior didn't follow the traditional ways, matter of fact he never once (as far as I can find) used anointed oil.

[iWriteStuff]

So it is either all true or all false

Looks like TheChristian summed up things nicely with his post following yours about how faith heals.

There is nothing I could disagree with more than your above statement. There is no way God gave his stamp of approval on everything this church has taught. It is a ridiculous thought. God always allows the growth that comes from learning on our own that certain doctrines are wrong. He was not the originator of the priesthood ban, but he allowed it so that we could eventually learn to stand against it. If we have nothing but truth in the church, we never get tested and turn into thoughtless drones.

Exactly like i thought you would say and the standard anti mormon answer..... that is not how faith works.

Like i said the lord is very clear on priestcraft and false priesthood, witchcraft etc and will never attach his blessings to false faith and false priesthoods...

You are delusional to think the lord would bestow his blessings and miracles upon this church in such a profound way if it was not sanctioned by him

You lack the intellectual self honesty with your self to consider you are wrong, and to think logically. One place you claim the lord can never lie, the prophet can never lie, and then you claim he uses false pegan priesthood to heal. You claim you trust the scriptures and then you neglect the ones on the destiny of this church, the prophecies of daniel, and the amazing prophecies of joseph. You claim anyone who has a 1st hand experience where they see a miracle about brigham recieving josephs mantle and claim they are crazy lunatics who trick themselves in to a twisted realality of false memories...... you ignore the overwhelming evidence of gods hand in this church. Which is to be seen everywhere. And you take your twisted doc philosophies with twisted scriptures .001% of logic and evidence and you state starring into the sun scorching you with the light of 99.99% of truth and say you cant see the light.

Pride cometh before the fall, and you are wrong and time is almost up to change.

I guess i will take my false priesthood and continue to heal the sick. I will continue to follow my fake holy ghost as he tells me how to serve in the church. I will thank the lord for the visions he has given me on what is coming and i will thank the lord for his special
2 comforter that surpases all peace. All the good and all the blessings come from this church and it is the only way you can ascend jacobs ladder up into heaven.

You spit and beat upon that ladder like the pharasies of old. Wanting to climb to heaven but destroying your only path to make it back

Attack the point of view, not the person holding it.

[Chris]

So it is either all true or all false

Looks like TheChristian summed up things nicely with his post following yours about how faith heals.

There is nothing I could disagree with more than your above statement. There is no way God gave his stamp of approval on everything this church has taught. It is a ridiculous thought. God always allows the growth that comes from learning on our own that certain doctrines are wrong. He was not the originator of the priesthood ban, but he allowed it so that we could eventually learn to stand against it. If we have nothing but truth in the church, we never get tested and turn into thoughtless drones.

Exactly like i thought you would say and the standard anti mormon answer..... that is not how faith works.

Like i said the lord is very clear on priestcraft and false priesthood, witchcraft etc and will never attach his blessings to false faith and false priesthoods...

You are delusional to think the lord would bestow his blessings and miracles upon this church in such a profound way if it was not sanctioned by him

You lack the intellectual self honesty with your self to consider you are wrong, and to think logically. One place you claim the lord can never lie, the prophet can never lie, and then you claim he uses false pegan priesthood to heal. You claim you trust the scriptures and then you neglect the ones on the destiny of this church, the prophecies of daniel, and the amazing prophecies of joseph. You claim anyone who has a 1st hand experience where they see a miracle about brigham recieving josephs mantle and claim they are crazy lunatics who trick themselves in to a twisted realality of false memories...... you ignore the overwhelming evidence of gods hand in this church. Which is to be seen everywhere. And you take your twisted doc philosophies with twisted scriptures .001% of logic and evidence and you state starring into the sun scorching you with the light of 99.99% of truth and say you cant see the light.

Pride cometh before the fall, and you are wrong and time is almost up to change.

I guess i will take my false priesthood and continue to heal the sick. I will continue to follow my fake holy ghost as he tells me how to serve in the church. I will thank the lord for the visions he has given me on what is coming and i will thank the lord for his special
2 comforter that surpases all peace. All the good and all the blessings come from this church and it is the only way you can ascend jacobs ladder up into heaven.

You spit and beat upon that ladder like the pharasies of old. Wanting to climb to heaven but destroying your only path to make it back

Attack the point of view, not the person holding it.

Agreed, i struggle with that when it comes to church stuff......

[Seeker144k]

The office of King and Priest encompasses all lesser authority. There is nothing higher than a King and Priest.

Yes, and a prophet is part of the ordination. So, if BY had greater authority, why would he say, 'you are now without a prophet to lead you'? He is acknowledging his 'Anointed Quorum' ordination does not make him eligible to become the prophet. He likely also knew that the Lord said one has to 'come in at the gate' and be called as Joseph was. There is no revelation calling BY to lead the church, he had himself voted in, and there is no revelation to reform the First Presidency.

Joseph had sent Sidney packing anyway.

This is entirely unfair and even a low blow. By the time of the April 1844 conference Joseph had completely reconciled things with Sydney. Joseph said all things were aright between them. He placed him on the Council of Fifty in March of 1844. He ordained him into the Anointed Quorum on 11 May and he chose him as his running mate.

Most importantly though, Sydney's call didn't come from Joseph. It was a direct revelation from God that called Sydney. Joseph can't undo what God has done simply by stating he has lost confidence.

He wasn't qualified to be running the Church with lesser authority.

The same lesser authority that actually did run the church for Joseph. The same lesser authority that brought us new scripture and everything we needed to build Zion, even the fulness of the MP. And then when BY and the church get this alleged higher authority revelation ceases and the heavens close and here we are 200 years later with a supposed higher authority that has yielded Jack $*!t. Look at the fruits of your supposed higher authority. How does anyone speak highly of an authority that results in no rain in the vineyard?

Brigham was the only candidate who had received the Fullness of the Priesthood, and this is an undeniable fact.

You mean the fulness that if restored would make God a liar because the saints never met his conditions for restoring it. They never built the Nauvoo House. Or do you mean the fulness that Sydney already had in 1830 before it was taken from the church.

Come on Luke, the Lord says restore unto you AGAIN that which was lost. Whatever was restored was that which they already had. How else could it be restored unto them again if they didn't already have it?

No, he didn't. He received his first anointing, but not his second anointing.

Even if that were true, a second anointing has nothing to do with church leadership. You can't place importance on this for church leadership first off, when any saint at any level can get it and second off, when Mark's ordination is before BY's. You can't have it both ways.

As with every other post on this forum, you have invented a standard which you like and then hold everything to said standard.

I have not invented this standard. It is very clear in the D&C that it is the Lord's standard.

By the way, Michael Quinn agrees with me when he says 95% of the membership new nothing of these "secret things".

He also says that the 12 claiming that to give priority to second anointings undermines their "last charge" claims. So which is it?

You are clearly well studied and make some great points. Worth considering. Thanks.

~Seeker

[Seeker144k]

So it is either all true or all false

Looks like TheChristian summed up things nicely with his post following yours about how faith heals.

There is nothing I could disagree with more than your above statement. There is no way God gave his stamp of approval on everything this church has taught. It is a ridiculous thought. God always allows the growth that comes from learning on our own that certain doctrines are wrong. He was not the originator of the priesthood ban, but he allowed it so that we could eventually learn to stand against it. If we have nothing but truth in the church, we never get tested and turn into thoughtless drones.

Exactly like i thought you would say and the standard anti mormon answer..... that is not how faith works.

Like i said the lord is very clear on priestcraft and false priesthood, witchcraft etc and will never attach his blessings to false faith and false priesthoods...

You are delusional to think the lord would bestow his blessings and miracles upon this church in such a profound way if it was not sanctioned by him

Hmmm, Chris, It appears that you are saying that the church can only be true if it is 100% true and everything the prophet(s) teach is true. Elder Bruce R. McConkie was perhaps one of the most well studied leaders of our day. He once called out that there were only a hand full of points that he and his father-in-law, President Joseph Fielding Smith disagreed on in regard to religious views. Elder McConkie wrote a letter to BYU Professor England who was teaching things that Bingham Young taught as president of the Church which were later rejected by other prophets as false doctrine. In that letter, McConkie said the following:

Yes, President Young did teach that Adam was the father of our spirits, and all the related things that the cultists ascribe to him. This, however, is not true. He expressed views that are out of harmony with the gospel.
...
I think you can give me credit for having a knowledge of the quotations from Brigham Young relative to Adam, and of knowing what he taught under the subject that has become known as the Adam God Theory. President Joseph Fielding Smith said that Brigham Young will have to make his own explanations on the points there involved.
...
This puts me in mind of Paul's statement: "There must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you." (1 Cor. 11:19.) I do not know all of the providences of the Lord, but I do know that he permits false doctrine to be taught in and out of the Church and that such teaching is part of the sifting process of mortality. We will be judged by what we believe among other things. If we believe false doctrine, we will be condemned. If that belief is on basic and fundamental things, it will lead us astray and we will lose our souls. This is why Nephi said: "And all those who preach false doctrines, . . . wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell!: (2 Ne. 28:15.) This clearly means that people who teach false doctrine in the fundamental and basic things will lose their souls. The nature and kind of being that God is, is one of these fundamentals. I repeat: Brigham Young erred in some of his statements on the nature and kind of being that God is and as to the position of Adam in the plan of salvation, but Brigham Young also taught the truth in these fields on other occasions. And I repeat, that in his instance, he was a great prophet and has gone on to eternal reward. What he did is not a pattern for any of us. If we choose to believe and teach the false portions of his doctrines, we are making an election that will damn us.

It should be perfectly evident that under our system of church discipline, it would be anticipated that some others besides Brigham Young would pick up some of his statements and echo them. Those who did this, also on other occasions, taught accurately and properly what the true doctrines of the gospel are. I do not get concerned when a good and sound person who. On the over-all, is teaching the truth happens to err on a particular point and say something in conflict with what he has said himself on a previous occasion. We are all mortal. We are all fallible. We all make mistakes. No single individual all the time is in tune with the Holy Spirit, but I do get concerned when some person or group picks out false statements and makes them the basis of their presentation and theology and thus ends up having a false concept of the doctrine, which in reality, was not in the mind of the person whose quotations they are using. - Bruce R. McConkie (Letter to Professor Eugene England

There is a reason why the Lord said,

D&C 50
19 And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
20 If it be some other way it is not of God.

If you receive as truth whatever the president of the church says, then it is not of God because you received the word of truth by the way of a person's position and priesthood and not by the way God instructed, through the spirit.

~Seeker

[Robin Hood]

Some are still making the claim that it is the secret anointings of the 12 that gave them their authority to lead the church after Joseph's death. Here are a few questions that that line of thinking brings up.

1. Why didn't the 12 upon the death of Joseph make reference to these anointings. Why not make the claim to the saints that an anointed King and Priest includes being a prophet and is higher than a prophet.
2. Why would BY say you are now without a prophet to lead you.
3. If the 12 really thought this and if they knew the Nauvoo High Council was equal in authority to the 12, why wouldn't they defer to Stake President William Marks who outranked them in all secret ordinations?
4. If secret ordinations matter, why did the 12 not continue making the senior 'King' the next prophet instead of resorting back to the senior Apostle? Why is it still seniority of an apostle to this day?
5. If First Presidency apostles fall back into the quorum according to seniority, why didn't Sydney fall back in as the senior apostle?

My point is, there is only this one time in history when believers of the secret anointing doctrine say it is applicable for seniority. It is important to note here that there is no revelation from the Lord instituting these secret works.

Everything about the priesthood and its offices and responsibilities was described by the Lord through revelation, but all of sudden that pattern stops, and non-scriptural ordinations take over.

William Marks did not outrank the Twelve in "secret ordinations". In fact, Marks was a bit of a lightweight.

[Shawn Henry]

William Marks did not outrank the Twelve in "secret ordinations". In fact, Marks was a bit of a lightweight.

Mark's ordination to the Anointed Quorum and his entrance into the Council of Fifty both predate all of the 12.

[Chris]

So it is either all true or all false

Looks like TheChristian summed up things nicely with his post following yours about how faith heals.

There is nothing I could disagree with more than your above statement. There is no way God gave his stamp of approval on everything this church has taught. It is a ridiculous thought. God always allows the growth that comes from learning on our own that certain doctrines are wrong. He was not the originator of the priesthood ban, but he allowed it so that we could eventually learn to stand against it. If we have nothing but truth in the church, we never get tested and turn into thoughtless drones.

Exactly like i thought you would say and the standard anti mormon answer..... that is not how faith works.

Like i said the lord is very clear on priestcraft and false priesthood, witchcraft etc and will never attach his blessings to false faith and false priesthoods...

You are delusional to think the lord would bestow his blessings and miracles upon this church in such a profound way if it was not sanctioned by him

Hmmm, Chris, It appears that you are saying that the church can only be true if it is 100% true and everything the prophet(s) teach is true. Elder Bruce R. McConkie was perhaps one of the most well studied leaders of our day. He once called out that there were only a hand full of points that he and his father-in-law, President Joseph Fielding Smith disagreed on in regard to religious views. Elder McConkie wrote a letter to BYU Professor England who was teaching things that Bingham Young taught as president of the Church which were later rejected by other prophets as false doctrine. In that letter, McConkie said the following:

Yes, President Young did teach that Adam was the father of our spirits, and all the related things that the cultists ascribe to him. This, however, is not true. He expressed views that are out of harmony with the gospel.
...
I think you can give me credit for having a knowledge of the quotations from Brigham Young relative to Adam, and of knowing what he taught under the subject that has become known as the Adam God Theory. President Joseph Fielding Smith said that Brigham Young will have to make his own explanations on the points there involved.
...
This puts me in mind of Paul's statement: "There must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you." (1 Cor. 11:19.) I do not know all of the providences of the Lord, but I do know that he permits false doctrine to be taught in and out of the Church and that such teaching is part of the sifting process of mortality. We will be judged by what we believe among other things. If we believe false doctrine, we will be condemned. If that belief is on basic and fundamental things, it will lead us astray and we will lose our souls. This is why Nephi said: "And all those who preach false doctrines, . . . wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell!: (2 Ne. 28:15.) This clearly means that people who teach false doctrine in the fundamental and basic things will lose their souls. The nature and kind of being that God is, is one of these fundamentals. I repeat: Brigham Young erred in some of his statements on the nature and kind of being that God is and as to the position of Adam in the plan of salvation, but Brigham Young also taught the truth in these fields on other occasions. And I repeat, that in his instance, he was a great prophet and has gone on to eternal reward. What he did is not a pattern for any of us. If we choose to believe and teach the false portions of his doctrines, we are making an election that will damn us.

It should be perfectly evident that under our system of church discipline, it would be anticipated that some others besides Brigham Young would pick up some of his statements and echo them. Those who did this, also on other occasions, taught accurately and properly what the true doctrines of the gospel are. I do not get concerned when a good and sound person who. On the over-all, is teaching the truth happens to err on a particular point and say something in conflict with what he has said himself on a previous occasion. We are all mortal. We are all fallible. We all make mistakes. No single individual all the time is in tune with the Holy Spirit, but I do get concerned when some person or group picks out false statements and makes them the basis of their presentation and theology and thus ends up having a false concept of the doctrine, which in reality, was not in the mind of the person whose quotations they are using. - Bruce R. McConkie (Letter to Professor Eugene England

There is a reason why the Lord said,

D&C 50
19 And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
20 If it be some other way it is not of God.

If you receive as truth whatever the president of the church says, then it is not of God because you received the word of truth by the way of a person's position and priesthood and not by the way God instructed, through the spirit.

~Seeker

What i am saying is many of you have a doctrine, called the doctrine of christ that is utter BS and so ridiculous i cant believe the devil is pulling it off, between this and the snuffer fools it is just mind boggling. It almost as if someone made a bet with devil asking him to see if he can create a spin off religion. Where they keep the BOM and first prophet and deny everything the BOM says, Everything Joseph prophesied about this church and THEN to DENY the church and its authority and blessing and fruits that are everywhere around and deny it all. IT is just amazing. I just cant believe people follow something so stupid. That people can be that stupid, to ignore 99.999999 of truth and proof and grasp to .000000001 of nonsense. You have to ignore almost everything. Daniels stone etc etc etc

I dont understand it. I am not saying the church and or people are perfect. I think there are many imperfect people and leaders in the church. Truly the parable of the 10 virgins is about the church. But the Lord is pleased with the church as a whole as he said in D&C collectively and it is only path to salvation and to the Lord.

[Luke]

But the Lord is pleased with the church as a whole as he said in D&C collectively

Yes, the Lord said that in Section 1 of the D&C (given on 1 November 1831). But later on, on 22 June 1834, He says thus:

• D&C 105
  1 Verily I say unto you who have assembled yourselves together that you may learn my will concerning the redemption of mine afflicted people—
  2 Behold, I say unto you, were it not for the transgressions of my people, speaking concerning the church and not individuals, they might have been redeemed even now.
  3 But behold, they have not learned to be obedient to the things which I required at their hands, but are full of all manner of evil, and do not impart of their substance, as becometh saints, to the poor and afflicted among them;
  4 And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;
  5 And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself.
  6 And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer.

So by 1834, the situation has been flipped on its head.

and it is only path to salvation and to the Lord.

I can testify that this is not true. The only path to salvation and to the Lord is the Fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and sadly, the LDS Church chose to reject it.

I respect your devotion to the LDS Church, but I cannot respect their rejection of the Fullness of the Gospel.

[Mamabear]

“Truly the parable of the 10 virgins is about the church.”

So a parable read by billions of people in the Bible is about less than 1% of the population?
I’m sorry but I don’t think so. It’s about all people.
The same goes for the wheat and tares parable.
It’s not about 16 million members…. or actually 8 million since half aren’t active.
It’s about everyone.

[Chris]

But the Lord is pleased with the church as a whole as he said in D&C collectively

Yes, the Lord said that in Section 1 of the D&C (given on 1 November 1831). But later on, on 22 June 1834, He says thus:

• D&C 105
  1 Verily I say unto you who have assembled yourselves together that you may learn my will concerning the redemption of mine afflicted people—
  2 Behold, I say unto you, were it not for the transgressions of my people, speaking concerning the church and not individuals, they might have been redeemed even now.
  3 But behold, they have not learned to be obedient to the things which I required at their hands, but are full of all manner of evil, and do not impart of their substance, as becometh saints, to the poor and afflicted among them;
  4 And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;
  5 And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself.
  6 And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer.

So by 1834, the situation has been flipped on its head.

and it is only path to salvation and to the Lord.

I can testify that this is not true. The only path to salvation and to the Lord is the Fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and sadly, the LDS Church chose to reject it.

I respect your devotion to the LDS Church, but I cannot respect their rejection of the Fullness of the Gospel.

Respectfully, i agree salvation may be found for those who have not received the gospel in this life and have not had the opportunity to receive temple blessings and legitimate baptism blessing. The Lord will give them that opportunity after this life, but still through the same temples we use now. But for those who have the opportunity to receive gospel blessings and walk away from it, or walk away from their covenants, they had their opportunity and passed on it and as Nephi has said they will have no exaltation and no progression for them. You cant embrace the light and then turn away. You cant enter the strait and narrow path, make covenants and then turn around and leave that path and expect a second chance. Time is running out for all of us to get right with God.

[Chris]

“Truly the parable of the 10 virgins is about the church.”

So a parable read by billions of people in the Bible is about less than 1% of the population?
I’m sorry but I don’t think so. It’s about all people.
The same goes for the wheat and tares parable.
It’s not about 16 million members…. or actually 8 million since half aren’t active.
It’s about everyone.

Gee, well that is not what Joseph Smith says or D&C or the LORD for that matter, you need to polish up on what you think is one way or another. You are wrong about this just like about everything else....

25 “At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3

[Luke]

But the Lord is pleased with the church as a whole as he said in D&C collectively

Yes, the Lord said that in Section 1 of the D&C (given on 1 November 1831). But later on, on 22 June 1834, He says thus:

• D&C 105
  1 Verily I say unto you who have assembled yourselves together that you may learn my will concerning the redemption of mine afflicted people—
  2 Behold, I say unto you, were it not for the transgressions of my people, speaking concerning the church and not individuals, they might have been redeemed even now.
  3 But behold, they have not learned to be obedient to the things which I required at their hands, but are full of all manner of evil, and do not impart of their substance, as becometh saints, to the poor and afflicted among them;
  4 And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;
  5 And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself.
  6 And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer.

So by 1834, the situation has been flipped on its head.

and it is only path to salvation and to the Lord.

I can testify that this is not true. The only path to salvation and to the Lord is the Fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and sadly, the LDS Church chose to reject it.

I respect your devotion to the LDS Church, but I cannot respect their rejection of the Fullness of the Gospel.

Respectfully, i agree salvation may be found for those who have not received the gospel in this life and have not had the opportunity to receive temple blessings and legitimate baptism blessing. The Lord will give them that opportunity after this life, but still through the same temples we use now. But for those who have the opportunity to receive gospel blessings and walk away from it, or walk away from their covenants, they had their opportunity and passed on it and as Nephi has said they will have no exaltation and no progression for them. You cant embrace the light and then turn away. You cant enter the strait and narrow path, make covenants and then turn around and leave that path and expect a second chance. Time is running out for all of us to get right with God.

I agree.

But let’s not forget:

“Hear it, ye elders of Israel, and mark it down in your log books: the fulness of the gospel is the United Order and the order of Plural Marriage, and without these two principles, this gospel can never be full, and I much fear that when I am gone, this people will give up these two principles which we prize so highly; and if they do, this church cannot advance as God wishes it to advance.” (Brigham Young, April 1877, Complete Discourses of Brigham Young 5:3112)

Are we living (that includes desiring and seeking to live) that Fullness?

[Chris]

But the Lord is pleased with the church as a whole as he said in D&C collectively

Yes, the Lord said that in Section 1 of the D&C (given on 1 November 1831). But later on, on 22 June 1834, He says thus:

• D&C 105
  1 Verily I say unto you who have assembled yourselves together that you may learn my will concerning the redemption of mine afflicted people—
  2 Behold, I say unto you, were it not for the transgressions of my people, speaking concerning the church and not individuals, they might have been redeemed even now.
  3 But behold, they have not learned to be obedient to the things which I required at their hands, but are full of all manner of evil, and do not impart of their substance, as becometh saints, to the poor and afflicted among them;
  4 And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;
  5 And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself.
  6 And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer.

So by 1834, the situation has been flipped on its head.

and it is only path to salvation and to the Lord.

I can testify that this is not true. The only path to salvation and to the Lord is the Fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and sadly, the LDS Church chose to reject it.

I respect your devotion to the LDS Church, but I cannot respect their rejection of the Fullness of the Gospel.

Respectfully, i agree salvation may be found for those who have not received the gospel in this life and have not had the opportunity to receive temple blessings and legitimate baptism blessing. The Lord will give them that opportunity after this life, but still through the same temples we use now. But for those who have the opportunity to receive gospel blessings and walk away from it, or walk away from their covenants, they had their opportunity and passed on it and as Nephi has said they will have no exaltation and no progression for them. You cant embrace the light and then turn away. You cant enter the strait and narrow path, make covenants and then turn around and leave that path and expect a second chance. Time is running out for all of us to get right with God.

I agree.

But let’s not forget:

“Hear it, ye elders of Israel, and mark it down in your log books: the fulness of the gospel is the United Order and the order of Plural Marriage, and without these two principles, this gospel can never be full, and I much fear that when I am gone, this people will give up these two principles which we prize so highly; and if they do, this church cannot advance as God wishes it to advance.” (Brigham Young, April 1877, Complete Discourses of Brigham Young 5:3112)

Are we living (that includes desiring and seeking to live) that Fullness?

It is like President Nelson has said, "The Restoration is a process, not a event." There are some pretty scary things coming and also some amazing things coming. There are some big things coming some thing i know and some i dont. I cant wait to see some of it and some things i am scared to death of.....

[Luke]

Yes, the Lord said that in Section 1 of the D&C (given on 1 November 1831). But later on, on 22 June 1834, He says thus:

• D&C 105
  1 Verily I say unto you who have assembled yourselves together that you may learn my will concerning the redemption of mine afflicted people—
  2 Behold, I say unto you, were it not for the transgressions of my people, speaking concerning the church and not individuals, they might have been redeemed even now.
  3 But behold, they have not learned to be obedient to the things which I required at their hands, but are full of all manner of evil, and do not impart of their substance, as becometh saints, to the poor and afflicted among them;
  4 And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;
  5 And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself.
  6 And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer.

So by 1834, the situation has been flipped on its head.


I can testify that this is not true. The only path to salvation and to the Lord is the Fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and sadly, the LDS Church chose to reject it.

I respect your devotion to the LDS Church, but I cannot respect their rejection of the Fullness of the Gospel.

Respectfully, i agree salvation may be found for those who have not received the gospel in this life and have not had the opportunity to receive temple blessings and legitimate baptism blessing. The Lord will give them that opportunity after this life, but still through the same temples we use now. But for those who have the opportunity to receive gospel blessings and walk away from it, or walk away from their covenants, they had their opportunity and passed on it and as Nephi has said they will have no exaltation and no progression for them. You cant embrace the light and then turn away. You cant enter the strait and narrow path, make covenants and then turn around and leave that path and expect a second chance. Time is running out for all of us to get right with God.

I agree.

But let’s not forget:

“Hear it, ye elders of Israel, and mark it down in your log books: the fulness of the gospel is the United Order and the order of Plural Marriage, and without these two principles, this gospel can never be full, and I much fear that when I am gone, this people will give up these two principles which we prize so highly; and if they do, this church cannot advance as God wishes it to advance.” (Brigham Young, April 1877, Complete Discourses of Brigham Young 5:3112)

Are we living (that includes desiring and seeking to live) that Fullness?

It is like President Nelson has said, "The Restoration is a process, not a event." There are some pretty scary things coming and also some amazing things coming. There are some big things coming some thing i know and some i dont. I cant wait to see some of it and some things i am scared to death of.....

You didn’t answer my question.

[Mamabear]

“Truly the parable of the 10 virgins is about the church.”

So a parable read by billions of people in the Bible is about less than 1% of the population?
I’m sorry but I don’t think so. It’s about all people.
The same goes for the wheat and tares parable.
It’s not about 16 million members…. or actually 8 million since half aren’t active.
It’s about everyone.

Gee, well that is not what Joseph Smith says or D&C or the LORD for that matter, you need to polish up on what you think is one way or another. You are wrong about this just like about everything else....

25 “At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3

Please consider that a 150+ billion dollar church is not the kingdom of heaven.

“He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.“ Matthew 13:11

“For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.“
Matthew 19:12

“But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.“
Matthew 19:14

“Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.“
Matthew 19:23

“And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.“
Matthew 8:11

[abijah]

the way mormons value ordinances over understanding is so cringe.

there's a reason our apostles will never debate someone from another religion on equal terms (what losers do), and will fall-back on physical rites as a crutch.

because they dont know anything. the only thing of substance LDS leaders say they have to offer is things they said their parents gave them, and are incapable of reproducing it on their own, like the inferior children of a better ancestry.

the whole "why have scriptures when you can have prophets"? mentality has only a produced a braindead religion full of airhead mongoloids capable of being brainwashed by LGBT sewage propaganda, a quintessential example of religious/cultural darwinism in which the stronger subsumes the weaker. And traditional mormonism is weak, and worthy of being eaten-up.

The boomer octogenarian tards in salt lake think they are irreplaceable, and that the sway-of-Babylon is inevitable, just like ramses thought his storage-cities are inevitably necessary.

[iWriteStuff]

hey fellas, I accidentally forgot to unlock this topic after some of y'all were flagging every blessed post. As a way of apologizing, please accept this free book (never before published) that was written as a master's thesis on the succession crisis and temple rites:

https://1drv.ms/b/s!Ap19Jy9bQ72YiT5HwOA ... 7?e=Xis6R7

[abijah]

hey fellas, I accidentally forgot to unlock this topic after some of y'all were flagging every blessed post. As a way of apologizing, please accept this free book (never before published) that was written as a master's thesis on the succession crisis and temple rites:

https://1drv.ms/b/s!Ap19Jy9bQ72YiT5HwOA ... 7?e=Xis6R7

lol, i was wondering who i p**sed-off so bad

[Shawn Henry]

“Hear it, ye elders of Israel, and mark it down in your log books: the fulness of the gospel is the United Order and the order of Plural Marriage, and without these two principles, this gospel can never be full

Do you honestly feel BY's actions regarding the United Order match this statement?

Do you feel that BY not paying back hundreds of thousands of tithing dollars and dying with that debt set John Taylor up for success in establishing that order?