Depersonalising our Chapels
- ParticleMan
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Re: Depersonalising our Chapels
This blog seeks to document the Church's historic architecture and trends in temples, tabernacles, and meetinghouses:
https://ldspioneerarchitecture.blogspot.com/
https://ldspioneerarchitecture.blogspot.com/
- Niemand
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 14203
Re: Depersonalising our Chapels
Thank you. It gives me an insight into a number of things I'll probably never see. I doubt I'll be over in the USA in the foreseeable future, let alone get to see some of these before they're gone.ParticleMan wrote: ↑November 7th, 2022, 9:56 am This blog seeks to document the Church's historic architecture and trends in temples, tabernacles, and meetinghouses:
https://ldspioneerarchitecture.blogspot.com/
- Niemand
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Re: Depersonalising our Chapels
I don't think all of these can be attributed to woke culture at all.
For one, I mentioned Teichert's art above — in the crudest terms, she was a woman, and an entirely male quorum have removed notable contributions to church buildings by a woman. A quite literal patriarchy in the worst sense of the word, who have committed erasure of women's history within the church. Woke people would not be happy about the gender aspect at all (although no doubt they'd moan about the whiteness of those portrayed.) I personally see Teichert's contribution as something more than just her being a woman, as I say above, but nonetheless whether we are woke or unwoke, this is exactly what has happened in the very simplest terms — we have seen an attack by men on a woman's legacy.
Secondly, some of it is very hard to frame within identity politics at all. The fact we have had a squabble over a single bush, or even a numbering system for our rooms... is absolutely nothing to do with woke culture. Unless one sees a flowering bush as bourgeois gardening, which I doubt they do. This is again, more in line with the need to sterilise everything and remove its individuality.
The potential for recreation has been there for decades. Any members with the clothing and a decent memory could recreate (most of) it for public display.Did we ever think the temple ordinance would have been made public on youtube by some disgruntled members?
I would also argue that the potential to film it has been round all my lifetime, at least since the 1960s, although bugging and surveillance devices were expensive back then. The potential to then put it onto film reels or videos has been around for forty or fifty years. Back in the early days you might have to film it using a bulky system hidden in a wheel chair etc, but by the 1990s the camcorder had appeared and miniaturisation was inevitable.
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Re: Depersonalising our Chapels
I guess it isn't a surprise that 'a bush' or numbering system might upset the 'keepers of the flame', although I'm not sure for what reason. Do they know?Secondly, some of it is very hard to frame within identity politics at all. The fact we have had a squabble over a single bush, or even a numbering system for our rooms... is absolutely nothing to do with woke culture. Unless one sees a flowering bush as bourgeois gardening, which I doubt they do. This is again, more in line with the need to sterilize everything and remove its individuality.
We live in a county in the United States where entire villages emigrated from the Ukraine to this particular area around 1900 . They are farmers on the cutting edge of chemical fertilizing & herbicide applications, GMO seed, absolutely control EVERYTHING, mono-crop farming methods. Their wives are compulsive house cleaners and 'tidyers'. Everything is in perfect order, but sterile aesthetically & intellectually.
TWO characteristics of inbreeding among specific isolated communities are Obsessive Compulsive Behaviors and the 'need to excel' within their shared skill sets. In some respects there is a certain genius to their accomplishments. At the same time the focus is so myopic they are blind to how destructive their methods are to any other life system.
The bush incident is really indicative. Our LDS friends in Montana recently told me that two Stake Council Meetings were entirely devoted to discussing whether or not a blue long-sleeved shirt was acceptable to be worn by Priesthood. Women's skirts made of denim - regardless of color - were decidedly inappropriate. This part of Montana is/was 'cowboy', and is rapidly being overrun by the super-wealthy West Coast liberal, silicon valley mindset. Conflict between those two cultures exists within the greater conflict of Mormons against 'the world'.
In the early 1970's a polite splash of cannabis plants appeared beneath the window of our Bishop's office in Portland, Oregon. Only a few of us knew what they were. Some of us thought to watch a bit longer to see if any alarms might go off. Within the summer months they were removed without fuss or commentary. When I think about it, is it possible those few struggling plants were heralds of the dire future of my much loved home town?
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P
N ~ our son suggests your errant bush on the church grounds be transformed in some manner to appear as ‘the burning bush’ of Moses’ fame. It could serve as a missionary tool.
- FrankOne
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- MikeMaillet
- captain of 1,000
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- Location: Ingleside, Ontario
Re: Depersonalising our Chapels
I joined the church in my early 20s in 1979. I grew up in a mining town in northern Ontario and the Sudbury Branch had an average attendance in the 70s-80s in those days. Most members were lower middle class and there was a feeling of friendship and family amongst the congregation. I remember endless fund raising projects to raise enough money to get a larger chapel and even though we did not have much, the members pitched in and were quite generous. I felt like I was part of something good and was happy to associate with people who shared similar beliefs and values and I looked forward to the often spirited discussions in the Elders' Quorum on Sundays. I also remember being impressed with the level of caring amongst the membership as well as from the church itself. This was reflected in various service projects as well as financial assistance from the church. Many members would simply by-pass the church and help out their friends as best they could. There was a feeling of hope in doing the work of the Lord. I always felt that our chapels were rather generic looking and functional at best but at least the members added colour and nuance.
Mike
Mike
- Moroni104
- captain of 100
- Posts: 251
Re: Depersonalising our Chapels
In my part of the world, we have 3 buildings very close to each other, and people from very far away traveling to these buildings.
Each building has 4 wards attending. Membership has grown so much, without new buildings, that our stake (our metro area went from 2 stakes to 6 stakes in 20 years) doesn't have a stake center, and doesn't appear to have plans to have one. The buiding that our ward attends is not even in our stake boundary.
At one time, I was in the bishopric. We plead with the stake president, who plead with Salt Lake for a building closer for us. The stake president said he called Salt Lake and said "Am I doing something wrong? I feel like I am pleading the best i know how for a building, but nothing I am doing seems to be persuasive."
In our region they announce a temple, which was very strange to us, as we all have so much hoped to just get another building. I think it may happen that the temple will be in the same area as all of the chapels.
For many years I was the scout master. We were not allowed to do any eagle projects that touched Church property.
At some point you just have to accept that in this Church you have no local control.
You are asked to provide labor, but you are not asked to provide your own ideas or unique gifts. (Yes our kitchen says it is only for warming, no cooking is allowed.)
It is a weird approach and honestly has made me feel like I guess I should just not work as hard for the Church. It is like the so called "silent quiting."
I so loved the Church. I enjoyed all the activities, and I enjoyed building a community both spritiually and physically. It is so sad to be writing what I am writing. I hope my attitude can improve.
Each building has 4 wards attending. Membership has grown so much, without new buildings, that our stake (our metro area went from 2 stakes to 6 stakes in 20 years) doesn't have a stake center, and doesn't appear to have plans to have one. The buiding that our ward attends is not even in our stake boundary.
At one time, I was in the bishopric. We plead with the stake president, who plead with Salt Lake for a building closer for us. The stake president said he called Salt Lake and said "Am I doing something wrong? I feel like I am pleading the best i know how for a building, but nothing I am doing seems to be persuasive."
In our region they announce a temple, which was very strange to us, as we all have so much hoped to just get another building. I think it may happen that the temple will be in the same area as all of the chapels.
For many years I was the scout master. We were not allowed to do any eagle projects that touched Church property.
At some point you just have to accept that in this Church you have no local control.
You are asked to provide labor, but you are not asked to provide your own ideas or unique gifts. (Yes our kitchen says it is only for warming, no cooking is allowed.)
It is a weird approach and honestly has made me feel like I guess I should just not work as hard for the Church. It is like the so called "silent quiting."
I so loved the Church. I enjoyed all the activities, and I enjoyed building a community both spritiually and physically. It is so sad to be writing what I am writing. I hope my attitude can improve.
- gkearney
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 5364
Re: Depersonalising our Chapels
Just to clarify one point here BSA Eagle Scout projects my not benefit either the BSA or the troop sponsors directly according to BSA policies. That would explain why the projects could not “touch” church property.
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Re: Depersonalising our Chapels
Mike ~ our home Ward in Portland, Oregon began after WWII in a tiny rented upper floor hall. My mother was a single parent convert. I guess single mothers weren’t as harshly judged as they would be in subsequent years. She had numerous callings involving music & children
In those days the majority cost of new buildings depended on the membership in that Ward. Being a ‘working class’ congregation there weren’t any standout wealthy members capable of significant contributions. One of my earliest memories is of pulling nails from boards meant to be recycled into the construction of our own meeting house!
I don’t recall any particular spiritual talks or lessons, although I did learn to love Jesus & did understand my commitment in being baptized at eight years.
The building was remodeled & updated over the years. Last I knew there were three congregations in the building including a Humong speaking one
My memories from our home Ward involve Ward dances in which everyone participated (old & young), potluck dinners, quilt auctions, road show theatricals, annual all day picnics in which childrens’ trikes & pull wagons became pioneer wagons, & after eating all the wonderful home cooked main dishes, an endless quantity of homemade pies. An older High Priest traditionally brought huge stainless steel water dispensers filled with dry ice cooled root beer of his own making - slightly effervescent. Children played while adults visited, sang, & packed up until late afternoon.
Our Stake ran a large farm & a cannery where we also volunteered our time & labor - even as children.
Not sure why or exactly when our attitudes became so strident & uncharitable as a People.
In those days the majority cost of new buildings depended on the membership in that Ward. Being a ‘working class’ congregation there weren’t any standout wealthy members capable of significant contributions. One of my earliest memories is of pulling nails from boards meant to be recycled into the construction of our own meeting house!
I don’t recall any particular spiritual talks or lessons, although I did learn to love Jesus & did understand my commitment in being baptized at eight years.
The building was remodeled & updated over the years. Last I knew there were three congregations in the building including a Humong speaking one
My memories from our home Ward involve Ward dances in which everyone participated (old & young), potluck dinners, quilt auctions, road show theatricals, annual all day picnics in which childrens’ trikes & pull wagons became pioneer wagons, & after eating all the wonderful home cooked main dishes, an endless quantity of homemade pies. An older High Priest traditionally brought huge stainless steel water dispensers filled with dry ice cooled root beer of his own making - slightly effervescent. Children played while adults visited, sang, & packed up until late afternoon.
Our Stake ran a large farm & a cannery where we also volunteered our time & labor - even as children.
Not sure why or exactly when our attitudes became so strident & uncharitable as a People.
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- captain of 100
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Re: Depersonalising our Chapels
Then why not reiterate the sacred space in the building- the chapel? Having a picture of Christ would help far more people to remember why they are in sacrament meeting and teach their children reverence during the ordinance. I remember as a kid there being a picture of Christ behind the sacrament table before correlation happened. I never understood why they took it away. I think the explanation was that it be construed as idolatry. Never made sense to me.Seeker of Truth wrote: ↑March 8th, 2022, 7:37 pm I do a lot of work for the LDS Church and have been told that this mandate to remove plaques and things from the area just outside of chapels and to replace them with big pics of Christ is an attempt to make those areas quieter. it is an attempt to expand the sacred/quiet space out into the hall. The higher ups know that we as members reverence pictures of Christ as if they were the actual being so they are using it against us.
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- captain of 100
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Re: Depersonalising our Chapels
Simple answer: the 2nd commandment. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image or any likeness [or portrait] of anything that is in heaven above ... Is that picture a likeness of Jesus?p8riot wrote: ↑November 12th, 2022, 11:03 am Then why not reiterate the sacred space in the building- the chapel? Having a picture of Christ would help far more people to remember why they are in sacrament meeting and teach their children reverence during the ordinance. I remember as a kid there being a picture of Christ behind the sacrament table before correlation happened. I never understood why they took it away. I think the explanation was that it be construed as idolatry. Never made sense to me.
Looks like an open and shut case to me. Better to have basic artwork.
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- captain of 100
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Re: Depersonalising our Chapels
Are you saying that there shouldn't be any pictures of Christ anywhere?AZRob wrote: ↑November 12th, 2022, 2:37 pmSimple answer: the 2nd commandment. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image or any likeness [or portrait] of anything that is in heaven above ... Is that picture a likeness of Jesus?p8riot wrote: ↑November 12th, 2022, 11:03 am Then why not reiterate the sacred space in the building- the chapel? Having a picture of Christ would help far more people to remember why they are in sacrament meeting and teach their children reverence during the ordinance. I remember as a kid there being a picture of Christ behind the sacrament table before correlation happened. I never understood why they took it away. I think the explanation was that it be construed as idolatry. Never made sense to me.
Looks like an open and shut case to me. Better to have basic artwork.
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- captain of 100
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Re: Depersonalising our Chapels
Yes, there shouldn't be, at least not as pictures of adoration. Art where the lines are blurred, for example the little children coming to Christ, is more of a narration picture than a worship piece. You probably know already that Islam takes this a few steps farther and forbids pictures, statues (including those similar to commandment-breaking ones like the Christus), and portraying their God or their prophet. Fancy Arabic script is the best you'll get out of Islam.p8riot wrote: ↑November 12th, 2022, 2:51 pmAre you saying that there shouldn't be any pictures of Christ anywhere?AZRob wrote: ↑November 12th, 2022, 2:37 pmSimple answer: the 2nd commandment. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image or any likeness [or portrait] of anything that is in heaven above ... Is that picture a likeness of Jesus?p8riot wrote: ↑November 12th, 2022, 11:03 am Then why not reiterate the sacred space in the building- the chapel? Having a picture of Christ would help far more people to remember why they are in sacrament meeting and teach their children reverence during the ordinance. I remember as a kid there being a picture of Christ behind the sacrament table before correlation happened. I never understood why they took it away. I think the explanation was that it be construed as idolatry. Never made sense to me.
Looks like an open and shut case to me. Better to have basic artwork.
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- captain of 100
- Posts: 263
Re: Depersonalising our Chapels
The Amish go even further than the Muslims- no pictures of anyone. Their childrens' dolls don't have faces on them.AZRob wrote: ↑November 12th, 2022, 2:58 pmYes, there shouldn't be, at least not as pictures of adoration. Art where the lines are blurred, for example the little children coming to Christ, is more of a narration picture than a worship piece. You probably know already that Islam takes this a few steps farther and forbids pictures, statues (including those similar to commandment-breaking ones like the Christus), and portraying their God or their prophet. Fancy Arabic script is the best you'll get out of Islam.p8riot wrote: ↑November 12th, 2022, 2:51 pmAre you saying that there shouldn't be any pictures of Christ anywhere?AZRob wrote: ↑November 12th, 2022, 2:37 pmSimple answer: the 2nd commandment. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image or any likeness [or portrait] of anything that is in heaven above ... Is that picture a likeness of Jesus?p8riot wrote: ↑November 12th, 2022, 11:03 am Then why not reiterate the sacred space in the building- the chapel? Having a picture of Christ would help far more people to remember why they are in sacrament meeting and teach their children reverence during the ordinance. I remember as a kid there being a picture of Christ behind the sacrament table before correlation happened. I never understood why they took it away. I think the explanation was that it be construed as idolatry. Never made sense to me.
Looks like an open and shut case to me. Better to have basic artwork.
Are you LDS? If so, based on your interpretation, do you consider the temple endowment blasphemous?
- Silver Pie
- seeker after Christ
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- Location: In the state that doesn't exist
Re: Depersonalising our Chapels
When I was a child, one ward I lived in, had a painting of Daniel in the Lion's Den behind the sacrament table. And it had a huge painting of Judgment Day on the wall behind the podium. It also had stained-glass windows. The windows were on the east and west sides of the chapel (this was a totally nonstandardized building).
p8riot wrote: ↑November 12th, 2022, 11:03 amThen why not reiterate the sacred space in the building- the chapel? Having a picture of Christ would help far more people to remember why they are in sacrament meeting and teach their children reverence during the ordinance. I remember as a kid there being a picture of Christ behind the sacrament table before correlation happened. I never understood why they took it away. I think the explanation was that it be construed as idolatry. Never made sense to me.Seeker of Truth wrote: ↑March 8th, 2022, 7:37 pm I do a lot of work for the LDS Church and have been told that this mandate to remove plaques and things from the area just outside of chapels and to replace them with big pics of Christ is an attempt to make those areas quieter. it is an attempt to expand the sacred/quiet space out into the hall. The higher ups know that we as members reverence pictures of Christ as if they were the actual being so they are using it against us.
- Silver Pie
- seeker after Christ
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Re: Depersonalising our Chapels
I am really sure that is not their motive for removing artwork.
AZRob wrote: ↑November 12th, 2022, 2:37 pm Simple answer: the 2nd commandment. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image or any likeness [or portrait] of anything that is in heaven above ... Is that picture a likeness of Jesus?
Looks like an open and shut case to me. Better to have basic artwork.
- Wondering Wendy
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Re: Depersonalising our Chapels
If the great reset happens, as the elite are planning, then erasing history for the next generation is just so much easier if there isn't any pictorial evidence hanging about on the walls. Just saying.
- Niemand
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 14203
Re: Depersonalising our Chapels
I don't even think it's anything that complex. The cookie cutter aspects of Mormonism have been noticed by outsiders for decades. I think it started as a means to compensate for our more distinctive aspects, but also as a feature of overcentralisation.Wondering Wendy wrote: ↑November 14th, 2022, 6:36 pm If the great reset happens, as the elite are planning, then erasing history for the next generation is just so much easier if there isn't any pictorial evidence hanging about on the walls. Just saying.
FWIW, the JWs are even worse. I've attended their services and pretty much everything was read out from Bethel-produced material. No original talks, no original respnses.
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Re: Depersonalising our Chapels
I heard that since we didn't know what he really looks like, we shouldn't have any pictures that were meant to depict him in the chapel.p8riot wrote: ↑November 12th, 2022, 11:03 amThen why not reiterate the sacred space in the building- the chapel? Having a picture of Christ would help far more people to remember why they are in sacrament meeting and teach their children reverence during the ordinance. I remember as a kid there being a picture of Christ behind the sacrament table before correlation happened. I never understood why they took it away. I think the explanation was that it be construed as idolatry. Never made sense to me.Seeker of Truth wrote: ↑March 8th, 2022, 7:37 pm I do a lot of work for the LDS Church and have been told that this mandate to remove plaques and things from the area just outside of chapels and to replace them with big pics of Christ is an attempt to make those areas quieter. it is an attempt to expand the sacred/quiet space out into the hall. The higher ups know that we as members reverence pictures of Christ as if they were the actual being so they are using it against us.