US Constitution a Gospel Principle

[Captain Moroni]

Suggestion to hopefulkly wake the Saints.

Ask them IF they would take action IF the govt banned the reading and distribution of the BofM? Then ask them if the govt did the same for the Constitution? Then explain that just as the BofM is an inspired document so is the Constitution.

[lundbaek]

The Lord tells us, in the D&C 101:80, that "I established the Constitution of this land by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto that very purpose.", and in Verse 77, that the Constitution "should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and holy principles".

In D&C 109, we learn that the Lord intended it to "be established forever".

in the Summary of D&C 98 we read that "The saints are to befriend the constitutional law of the land", and in Verse 6, we read that "I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my Church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land;".

In the October 1987 General Conference President Ezra Taft Benson stated that "We must learn the principles of the Constitution in the tradition of the Founding Fathers", and the April 2021 General Conference President Dallin H. Oaks, told us that "We should learn and advocate the inspired principles of the Constitution."

To my mind these statements by the Lord Himself, together with the general conference statements by President Benson and President Oaks, place a requirement on Latter-day Saints to learn, uphold, and abide by the principles of the United States Constitution as it was meant to be understood. I have for many years noted that there have been few reminders of that responsibility given to the Church membership.

I think that if members were reminded more often, two bad things would happen. First, more LDSs would come under greater condemnation for ignoring that responsibility. And second, there would be retribution against the Church by the U.S. government.

[mudflap]

I have for many years noted that there have been few reminders of that responsibility given to the Church membership.

agreed. There should be a class. In fact, I think it's time to ditch the current Sunday School every 4 year rotation schedule (OT / NT / BOM / D&C). I think it's time for deep dives.
For example - how about we spend a year on Isaiah ("Great are the words of Isaiah", said the Lord)?
Maybe a year on the PofGP instead of making it a side note to Genesis?
How about a year of Revelation, instead of squishing it between Christmas and New Years?
Maybe we talk about the Apocrypha - what it is, and how it relates to us? The stuff we know that's true in it, and the stuff we still don't know?
And finally, I think we could spend some time with the revelations on the Constitution.

I think that if members were reminded more often, two bad things would happen. First, more LDSs would come under greater condemnation for ignoring that responsibility.

I don't know, I think the liberal / progressive side of the church - though large and influential at the moment (I'm looking at you, BYU "they- them'ers") will eventually collapse under it's own weight. I have always studied the constitution and appreciated it.

And second, there would be retribution against the Church by the U.S. government.

I kinda doubt this. They would only punish the Church if the church started applying or defending the constitution for real, instead of just giving it lip service every 20 years or so. you know - like actually supporting constitutional electoral candidates, instead of just reading a form letter every 2 years. but we're a 501c3, so unless we renig on that (and face taxation...?)......

[Niemand]

I've said this elsewhere (and I don't mean it to be offensive to Americans), but unless the US Constitution is upheld and maintained, it is just a bit of parchment. If we look back in history there have been some countries which have had good constitutions but bad human rights, because those constitutions were not upheld.

Stalin, who was notorious for his cruel sense of humour, had a constitution passed in 1936 which "guaranteed" Soviet citizens a number of basic human rights including universal suffrage and freedom of expression and religion. This new Soviet constitution was followed shortly afterwards by the Great Purge... it was just a bit of paper, and any decent elements it had in it were ignored by the secret police as and when they wanted.

[EmmaLee]

I've said this elsewhere (and I don't mean it to be offensive to Americans), but unless the US Constitution is upheld and maintained, it is just a bit of parchment. If we look back in history there have been some countries which have had good constitutions but bad human rights, because those constitutions were not upheld.

Stalin, who was notorious for his cruel sense of humour, had a constitution passed in 1936 which "guaranteed" Soviet citizens a number of basic human rights including universal suffrage and freedom of expression and religion. This new Soviet constitution was followed shortly afterwards by the Great Purge... it was just a bit of paper, and any decent elements it had in it were ignored by the secret police as and when they wanted.

Exactly. John Adams said, “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious People. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

We are, by and large, not a "moral and religious people" anymore - quite the opposite, in fact. Which is why the true, Godly principles enshrined in that document are ignored, belittled, and cast aside. We really do deserve the government we get (and that applies to everyone on planet Earth).

[lundbaek]

Do you think that if just the American Latter-day Saint people were to learn, uphold, and abide by the "inspired principles of the Constitution" "in the tradition of the Founding Fathers", that those principles enunciated in the Constitution would, in time, reverberate over America until it becomes an example to the other nations of the earth? For that reason I still look forward hopefully to " that moment prophesied by Joseph Smith when he said: "Even this nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground and when the Constitution is on the brink of ruin this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction."

[lundbaek]

Suggestion to hopefulkly wake the Saints.

Ask them IF they would take action IF the govt banned the reading and distribution of the BofM? Then ask them if the govt did the same for the Constitution? Then explain that just as the BofM is an inspired document so is the Constitution.

Elder Rascon of the 70 spoke recently at our stake conference and at the conclusion of the Sunday session mentioned the statements in the D&C about the Constitution, but said nothing about the responsibility of Latter-day Saints to learn, uphold, and abide by its principles. Only about 6 stake members at most are attending our bi-weekly Constitution study class. So what's it gonna take?

[Niemand]

Do you think that if just the American Latter-day Saint people were to learn, uphold, and abide by the "inspired principles of the Constitution" "in the tradition of the Founding Fathers", that those principles enunciated in the Constitution would, in time, reverberate over America until it becomes an example to the other nations of the earth? For that reason I still look forward hopefully to " that moment prophesied by Joseph Smith when he said: "Even this nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground and when the Constitution is on the brink of ruin this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction."

The US Constitution has largely been a positive influence upon the world... as I may have said before, I would happily trade all the American junk food and the trashier music we get from over there, for a proper equivalent to the Bill of Rights. We do have rights here but they are buried in libaries and not always enforced.

The most admirable aspects of America to me are its constitution, the positive can-do attitude and social mobility where it exists. (I'm well aware there are a few upper class elements which are locked up - Skull & Bones types etc.) We seem to get a lot of the worse aspects of US culture being imported without its more admirable ones.

The fight for individual rights is admirable. I appreciate there is sometimes a need for community/collective rights as well, but as far as I'm concerned the human collective is properly made up of individuals.

[Allison]

Suggestion to hopefulkly wake the Saints.

Ask them IF they would take action IF the govt banned the reading and distribution of the BofM? Then ask them if the govt did the same for the Constitution? Then explain that just as the BofM is an inspired document so is the Constitution.

Elder Rascon of the 70 spoke recently at our stake conference and at the conclusion of the Sunday session mentioned the statements in the D&C about the Constitution, but said nothing about the responsibility of Latter-day Saints to learn, uphold, and abide by its principles. Only about 6 stake members at most are attending our bi-weekly Constitution study class. So what's it gonna take?

I think it’s going to take a strong Plan B, namely, working with all of the nonmember patriots among us who are part of the Great Awakening. No use crying over spilt milk. As my husband says, “Some will, some won’t…Next?”

[mudflap]

Suggestion to hopefulkly wake the Saints.

Ask them IF they would take action IF the govt banned the reading and distribution of the BofM? Then ask them if the govt did the same for the Constitution? Then explain that just as the BofM is an inspired document so is the Constitution.

Elder Rascon of the 70 spoke recently at our stake conference and at the conclusion of the Sunday session mentioned the statements in the D&C about the Constitution, but said nothing about the responsibility of Latter-day Saints to learn, uphold, and abide by its principles. Only about 6 stake members at most are attending our bi-weekly Constitution study class. So what's it gonna take?

I think it’s going to take a strong Plan B, namely, working with all of the nonmember patriots among us who are part of the Great Awakening. No use crying over spilt milk. As my husband says, “Some will, some won’t…Next?”

yes!

non-member friends are amazed that we have scriptures that strongly support the constitution and our founding.

[lundbaek]

I do not apologize if I continue to annoy people with my frequent reminders that Latter-day Saints are the only people on this planet that I know of who have been given what I call a divine mandate to learn, uphold, and abide by the principles of the U.S. Constitution. On Page 136 in the Church publication of "Gospel Principles" is the statement that "Unless we as members of the Church do all we can to preserve the freedoms we have, within the bounds of the laws of God, we will be held accountable."

In the D&C 101:80 we read that the Lord said "I established the Constitution of this land by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto that very purpose."

I the D&C 101:77 we read that the Lord said that the Constitution "should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and holy principles".

In the D&C 109:54 we read that the Lord intended the Constitution is to "be established forever".

In the Summary of D&C 98 we can read that "The saints are to befriend the constitutional law of the land", and in Verse 6 that "I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my Church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land;".

In the October 1987 General Conference President Ezra Taft Benson stated that "We must learn the principles of the Constitution in the tradition of the Founding Fathers", and the April 2021 General Conference President Dallin H. Oaks told us that "We should learn and advocate the inspired principles of the Constitution."

Brother Jerome Horowitz, LDS author of THE ELDERS OF ISRAEL AND THE CONSTITUTION and THE GOSPEL KEY TO OUR TRUE CONSTITUTION, has given me what I consider the best reasons for the current relative silence from Church authorities on the subject of freedom, liberty, and the U.S. Constitution. Shortly before he passed away several years ago, he wrote to me, “Confirming our telephone conversation I think the Church is cautious about openly participating in freedom promotion activities partly because of concern about government retribution that might unduly hinder its primary religious mission and partly because so many members have been indoctrinated to favor federal dominance and federal welfare and regulation that there is concern that a strong constitutional position might split the Church.” His book THE ELDERS OF ISRAEL AND THE CONSTITUTION was recommended by Elder Benson in the April 1972 general conference, and in subsequent years he did many presentations and firesides trying to motivate LDSs to study, uphold and abide by the U.S. Constitution.

[Allison]

Suggestion to hopefulkly wake the Saints.

Ask them IF they would take action IF the govt banned the reading and distribution of the BofM? Then ask them if the govt did the same for the Constitution? Then explain that just as the BofM is an inspired document so is the Constitution.

Elder Rascon of the 70 spoke recently at our stake conference and at the conclusion of the Sunday session mentioned the statements in the D&C about the Constitution, but said nothing about the responsibility of Latter-day Saints to learn, uphold, and abide by its principles. Only about 6 stake members at most are attending our bi-weekly Constitution study class. So what's it gonna take?

I think it’s going to take a strong Plan B, namely, working with all of the nonmember patriots among us who are part of the Great Awakening. No use crying over spilt milk. As my husband says, “Some will, some won’t…Next?”

yes!

non-member friends are amazed that we have scriptures that strongly support the constitution and our founding.

And it’s embarrassing that we’re so often AWOL from the movement. At the turn of the century, the JBS was populated almost equally by Catholics and Mormons. Now it’s hard to find a member of the Church involved in any pro-Constitution movement.

In fact, it seems like generic Christians are more concerned and involved these days, and also more likely to be acquiring food storage. What is becoming of us?

[Allison]

I do not apologize if I continue to annoy people with my frequent reminders that Latter-day Saints are the only people on this planet that I know of who have been given what I call a divine mandate to learn, uphold, and abide by the principles of the U.S. Constitution. On Page 136 in the Church publication of "Gospel Principles" is the statement that "Unless we as members of the Church do all we can to preserve the freedoms we have, within the bounds of the laws of God, we will be held accountable."

In the D&C 101:80 we read that the Lord said "I established the Constitution of this land by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto that very purpose."

I the D&C 101:77 we read that the Lord said that the Constitution "should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and holy principles".

In the D&C 109:54 we read that the Lord intended the Constitution is to "be established forever".

In the Summary of D&C 98 we can read that "The saints are to befriend the constitutional law of the land", and in Verse 6 that "I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my Church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land;".

In the October 1987 General Conference President Ezra Taft Benson stated that "We must learn the principles of the Constitution in the tradition of the Founding Fathers", and the April 2021 General Conference President Dallin H. Oaks told us that "We should learn and advocate the inspired principles of the Constitution."

Brother Jerome Horowitz, LDS author of THE ELDERS OF ISRAEL AND THE CONSTITUTION and THE GOSPEL KEY TO OUR TRUE CONSTITUTION, has given me what I consider the best reasons for the current relative silence from Church authorities on the subject of freedom, liberty, and the U.S. Constitution. Shortly before he passed away several years ago, he wrote to me, “Confirming our telephone conversation I think the Church is cautious about openly participating in freedom promotion activities partly because of concern about government retribution that might unduly hinder its primary religious mission and partly because so many members have been indoctrinated to favor federal dominance and federal welfare and regulation that there is concern that a strong constitutional position might split the Church.” His book THE ELDERS OF ISRAEL AND THE CONSTITUTION was recommended by Elder Benson in the April 1972 general conference, and in subsequent years he did many presentations and firesides trying to motivate LDSs to study, uphold and abide by the U.S. Constitution.

Is there anything we can do to inspire our ward members? A good friend who applauds our efforts has told me that the Spirit directed her NOT to get involved at all in politics, but at least she and her husband wish us well.

[lundbaek]

I have been trying for years to motivate and inspire our ward and stake members, as well as others, to study/learn, uphold, and abide by the principles of the Constitution by hosting firesides, promoting Constitution study groups, and testifying on fast Sundays about the special importance of the U.S. Constitution to Latter-day Saints. I attend JBS meetings whenever I can. The results of my efforts have been meager, but at least effective with some folks. And I can testify that the Spirit has directed some of my efforts over the years. My above post in an example of that.

At one time some years ago I was aware of 16 LDS Church members who were admonished in their patriarchal blessings to study and learn of the early founding fathers and the founding of this nation, and related activities. None of the 16 had done anything up to that time.

From one of those 16 patriarchal blessings:
" Study the Constitution of The United States of America. Learn of it so you may be able to defend it, for it was divinely instituted here so that the Gospel might be restored in these latter days. We must defend this Constitution and keep it from being undermined and destroyed, that our religious liberties may remain in tact".

[BuriedTartaria]

How has the constitution protected the United States from the point we find ourselves at today? I get the divinely inspired stuff but I think too much hope, worship and idolization is placed on that. The LITERAL NEPHITE NATION was divinely inspired and went extinct due to wickedness. Just because divine inspiration led to its inception, the divine inspiration did not save them from what a wicked society brings. If you think the divinely inspired constitution will protect you, our society and our culture from major repercussions due to where we have found ourselves, I think you are wrong.

The user endlessismyname the other day said they believe we are living in a post-constitutional society. I agree with them. I think way too much hope is placed on our divinely inspired constitution. If sinful people aren't following it and they're the majority, how will it protect our country? If we have let our society become so intrinsically infiltrated by secret combinations and sinful ideology, how do we think inspired structure exempts us from meeting our doom and experiencing our comeuppance like previous nations experienced?

[Allison]

I have been trying for years to motivate and inspire our ward and stake members, as well as others, to study/learn, uphold, and abide by the principles of the Constitution by hosting firesides, promoting Constitution study groups, and testifying on fast Sundays about the special importance of the U.S. Constitution to Latter-day Saints. I attend JBS meetings whenever I can. The results of my efforts have been meager, but at least effective with some folks. And I can testify that the Spirit has directed some of my efforts over the years. My above post in an example of that.

At one time some years ago I was aware of 16 LDS Church members who were admonished in their patriarchal blessings to study and learn of the early founding fathers and the founding of this nation, and related activities. None of the 16 had done anything up to that time.

From one of those 16 patriarchal blessings:
" Study the Constitution of The United States of America. Learn of it so you may be able to defend it, for it was divinely instituted here so that the Gospel might be restored in these latter days. We must defend this Constitution and keep it from being undermined and destroyed, that our religious liberties may remain in tact".

I just don’t see the Church leaning that way. People can read the tea leaves; there is no upward mobility for those who speak out about such “uncomfortable” topics. For those with loftier aspirations, mum’s the word.

I have faith and hope that the Lord will not let America be destroyed if other people will fill in and do the work that we members should have been doing all along.

Thank you for the inspiration though! Time to sponsor a weekly “class” on the Constitution for the community. There has never been a better time.

[Allison]

How has the constitution protected the United States from the point we find ourselves at today? I get the divinely inspired stuff but I think too much hope, worship and idolization is placed on that. The LITERAL NEPHITE NATION was divinely inspired and went extinct due to wickedness. Just because divine inspiration led to its inception, the divine inspiration did not save them from what a wicked society brings. If you think the divinely inspired constitution will protect you, our society and our culture from major repercussions due to where we have found ourselves, I think you are wrong.

The user endlessismyname the other day said they believe we are living in a post-constitutional society. I agree with them. I think way too much hope is placed on our divinely inspired constitution. If sinful people aren't following it and they're the majority, how will it protect our country? If we have let our society become so intrinsically infiltrated by secret combinations and sinful ideology, how do we think inspired structure exempts us from meeting our doom and experiencing our comeuppance like previous nations experienced?

Steve Turley, Ph.D., sees a worldwide return of Christendom and I believe he is right! You are correct that we cannot restore the Constitution without restoring virtue, so let’s restore virtue and let’s point toward Christ energetically. Anything we do along those lines out here in the Midwest is playing very well with just about everybody. I see people reaching for their Christian roots and at this point I don’t care if they are ready for the fullness of the gospel yet or not. Just turn to Christ and repent, as if we were Nineveh.

[lundbaek]

In the opening address of the October 1987 General Conference, President Ezra Taft Benson asked this question: "Do we know what prophets have said about the Constitution and the threats to it?" Actually, there exists an avalanche of statements by the Lord Jesus Christ, and latter-day prophets and apostles about the United States Constitution and its special significance to Latter-day Saints. And many of those statements refer to statements attributed to the Prophet Joseph Smith about the U.S. Constitution being in jeopardy and being rescued by efforts involving members of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints. These two statements, each spoken by a latter-day prophet, give me hope and reason to prepare myself and others to participate in the restoration of principles of the Constitution to government in America.

Joseph Smith
“Even this nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground and when the Constitution is on the brink of ruin this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction....I know these things by the visions of the Almighty." (July 19, 1840, as recorded by Martha Jane Knowlton Coray; manuscript in Church Historian's Office, Salt Lake City)

Ezra Taft Benson
"We are fast approaching that moment prophesied by Joseph Smith when he said: "Even this nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground and when the Constitution is on the brink of ruin this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction." (October 1987 General Conference) (July 19, 1840, as recorded by Martha Jane Knowlton Coray; manuscript in Church Historian's Office, Salt Lake City)

Do we believe this will happen, one way or another?

[Niemand]

Do we believe this will happen, one way or another?

There are signs that it has already begun. 2020 was a major attack on the world, including the US Constitution in several regards.

[Allison]

In the opening address of the October 1987 General Conference, President Ezra Taft Benson asked this question: "Do we know what prophets have said about the Constitution and the threats to it?" Actually, there exists an avalanche of statements by the Lord Jesus Christ, and latter-day prophets and apostles about the United States Constitution and its special significance to Latter-day Saints. And many of those statements refer to statements attributed to the Prophet Joseph Smith about the U.S. Constitution being in jeopardy and being rescued by efforts involving members of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints. These two statements, each spoken by a latter-day prophet, give me hope and reason to prepare myself and others to participate in the restoration of principles of the Constitution to government in America.

Joseph Smith
“Even this nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground and when the Constitution is on the brink of ruin this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction....I know these things by the visions of the Almighty." (July 19, 1840, as recorded by Martha Jane Knowlton Coray; manuscript in Church Historian's Office, Salt Lake City)

Ezra Taft Benson
"We are fast approaching that moment prophesied by Joseph Smith when he said: "Even this nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground and when the Constitution is on the brink of ruin this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction." (October 1987 General Conference) (July 19, 1840, as recorded by Martha Jane Knowlton Coray; manuscript in Church Historian's Office, Salt Lake City)

Do we believe this will happen, one way or another?

Do you believe our people will save the Constitution?

[Dave62]

In the opening address of the October 1987 General Conference, President Ezra Taft Benson asked this question: "Do we know what prophets have said about the Constitution and the threats to it?" Actually, there exists an avalanche of statements by the Lord Jesus Christ, and latter-day prophets and apostles about the United States Constitution and its special significance to Latter-day Saints. And many of those statements refer to statements attributed to the Prophet Joseph Smith about the U.S. Constitution being in jeopardy and being rescued by efforts involving members of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints. These two statements, each spoken by a latter-day prophet, give me hope and reason to prepare myself and others to participate in the restoration of principles of the Constitution to government in America.

Joseph Smith
“Even this nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground and when the Constitution is on the brink of ruin this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction....I know these things by the visions of the Almighty." (July 19, 1840, as recorded by Martha Jane Knowlton Coray; manuscript in Church Historian's Office, Salt Lake City)

Ezra Taft Benson
"We are fast approaching that moment prophesied by Joseph Smith when he said: "Even this nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground and when the Constitution is on the brink of ruin this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction." (October 1987 General Conference) (July 19, 1840, as recorded by Martha Jane Knowlton Coray; manuscript in Church Historian's Office, Salt Lake City)

Do we believe this will happen, one way or another?

Do you believe our people will save the Constitution?

No, only Jesus can save America now. This is the start of significant tribulation. We need to be both spiritually and physically prepared.

[Allison]

In the opening address of the October 1987 General Conference, President Ezra Taft Benson asked this question: "Do we know what prophets have said about the Constitution and the threats to it?" Actually, there exists an avalanche of statements by the Lord Jesus Christ, and latter-day prophets and apostles about the United States Constitution and its special significance to Latter-day Saints. And many of those statements refer to statements attributed to the Prophet Joseph Smith about the U.S. Constitution being in jeopardy and being rescued by efforts involving members of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints. These two statements, each spoken by a latter-day prophet, give me hope and reason to prepare myself and others to participate in the restoration of principles of the Constitution to government in America.

Joseph Smith
“Even this nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground and when the Constitution is on the brink of ruin this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction....I know these things by the visions of the Almighty." (July 19, 1840, as recorded by Martha Jane Knowlton Coray; manuscript in Church Historian's Office, Salt Lake City)

Ezra Taft Benson
"We are fast approaching that moment prophesied by Joseph Smith when he said: "Even this nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground and when the Constitution is on the brink of ruin this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction." (October 1987 General Conference) (July 19, 1840, as recorded by Martha Jane Knowlton Coray; manuscript in Church Historian's Office, Salt Lake City)

Do we believe this will happen, one way or another?

Do you believe our people will save the Constitution?

No, only Jesus can save America now. This is the start of significant tribulation. We need to be both spiritually and physically prepared.

Agreed. I feel we have failed to fulfill that prophecy as a people, but have not given up on grassroots Christian patriots who do seem to have awakened to our awful situation. Hoping and praying we can delay the tribulation period, if enough of us repent and turn to Christ. Remember Jacob 5 and how easily the servant talked the Lord of the Vineyard into sparing it a little longer.

[mudflap]

Agreed. I feel we have failed to fulfill that prophecy as a people, but have not given up on grassroots Christian patriots who do seem to have awakened to our awful situation. Hoping and praying we can delay the tribulation period, if enough of us repent and turn to Christ. Remember Jacob 5 and how easily the servant talked the Lord of the Vineyard into sparing it a little longer.

why delay the inevitable? Rip that bandaid off, let's get this over with. I mean, we KNOW how this "movie" ends, right? All the bad guys get burned with fire. We need a huge earthquake, a desolating scourge, Babylon must fall, the Church needs to be cleansed, and where's that sudden entire separation of the righteous from the wicked?

No dragging of the feet here:

Matt 24:22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

I'm not praying for repentance or sparing it a little longer - I want Him to come quickly, just like He says.

But throwing a bit of a wrench into the works -

I know a lot of non-LDS "patriots" / "conservatives"/ "libertarians" who hate what the Dems and most Repub's have done to this country - Dems for actively destroying it, Repubs for passively destroying it. So now, these "patriots" want a whole new set of laws - they think the Constitution was flawed from the beginning, and maybe it's time to start fresh.

We'll have to contend with them as well.

[mudflap]

...but think about it -
He's not shortening "those days" for the wicked, or the mediocre, or the uninterested, or the "gawrsh - I almost forgot to pick up some hotdogs for the BBQ with the guys this weekend" crowds. He's shortening them for the elect.

One possible insight on this is that the wicked might be going along "just fine" through all the tribulation - they might think everything is A-OK - maybe jackbooted tyranny suits them just fine. Maybe the lack of real freedom goes unnoticed by the worldly crowd. Maybe it's solely for the Elect that those days are shortened - because the Elect are so pained at all the wickedness and evil going on.

[Allison]

Agreed. I feel we have failed to fulfill that prophecy as a people, but have not given up on grassroots Christian patriots who do seem to have awakened to our awful situation. Hoping and praying we can delay the tribulation period, if enough of us repent and turn to Christ. Remember Jacob 5 and how easily the servant talked the Lord of the Vineyard into sparing it a little longer.

why delay the inevitable? Rip that bandaid off, let's get this over with. I mean, we KNOW how this "movie" ends, right? All the bad guys get burned with fire. We need a huge earthquake, a desolating scourge, Babylon must fall, the Church needs to be cleansed, and where's that sudden entire separation of the righteous from the wicked?

No dragging of the feet here:

Matt 24:22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

I'm not praying for repentance or sparing it a little longer - I want Him to come quickly, just like He says.

But throwing a bit of a wrench into the works -

I know a lot of non-LDS "patriots" / "conservatives"/ "libertarians" who hate what the Dems and most Repub's have done to this country - Dems for actively destroying it, Repubs for passively destroying it. So now, these "patriots" want a whole new set of laws - they think the Constitution was flawed from the beginning, and maybe it's time to start fresh.

We'll have to contend with them as well.

Oy. Well, that would be interesting and there are a lot of people who think we can write a new and improved constitution, but I personally doubt we are well-read and virtuous enough to do better.

I’ve been told since 2000 that it was too late to save America and besides, the sooner we collapse, the sooner Jesus will come, as if we can bring Him here sooner through our failure.

Also, the longer we have a functional world, the more souls we might be able to reach and save. That seemed to be the servant’s motivation when he pled for more time.