The original 1840s temple endowment

[Luke]

Truth should be taught openly.

Not always. Casting pearls before swine is not wise.

Open to anyone who is willing to listen, yes. Teaching the precepts of the core laws and ordinances is not some secret hidden away thing that we have to be "hush hush" about. Casting pearls before swine has nothing to do with teaching any and all who have a heart that is willing to listen.

My issues w/ the endowment start before you even step in the front door.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with what you're saying re. the laws being taught beforehand, but you made a blanket statement by saying that "truth should be taught openly", to which I say: "Not all truth."

[Reluctant Watchman]

Truth should be taught openly.

Not always. Casting pearls before swine is not wise.

Open to anyone who is willing to listen, yes. Teaching the precepts of the core laws and ordinances is not some secret hidden away thing that we have to be "hush hush" about. Casting pearls before swine has nothing to do with teaching any and all who have a heart that is willing to listen.

My issues w/ the endowment start before you even step in the front door.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with what you're saying re. the laws being taught beforehand, but you made a blanket statement by saying that "truth should be taught openly", to which I say: "Not all truth."

Everything relating to the endowment should be taught openly. If Christ personally tells you to not share something, or the HG prompts the same, then yeah, I'd concede to their admonitions.

We hide or make secret way too much in the LDS church. And most members have no idea what they even covenanted to do. And it's no surprise since you are discouraged from even talking about it.

[Luke]

Not always. Casting pearls before swine is not wise.

Open to anyone who is willing to listen, yes. Teaching the precepts of the core laws and ordinances is not some secret hidden away thing that we have to be "hush hush" about. Casting pearls before swine has nothing to do with teaching any and all who have a heart that is willing to listen.

My issues w/ the endowment start before you even step in the front door.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with what you're saying re. the laws being taught beforehand, but you made a blanket statement by saying that "truth should be taught openly", to which I say: "Not all truth."

Everything relating to the endowment should be taught openly. If Christ personally tells you to not share something, or the HG prompts the same, then yeah, I'd concede to their admonitions.

We hide or make secret way too much in the LDS church. And most members have no idea what they even covenanted to do. And it's no surprise since you are discouraged from even talking about it.

I do think that there is a culture wherein there are forbidden subjects in the LDS Church, and this is clearly stifling.

There are certain things in the endowment which should not be taught openly. You (are supposed to) covenant to not reveal them, with certain penalties attached to it.

[Reluctant Watchman]

There are certain things in the endowment which should not be taught openly. You (are supposed to) covenant to not reveal them, with certain penalties attached to it.

Those are the things I have problems with. No penalty should be associated with a secret sign or phrase while making a covenant. The only penalty comes when you voluntarily go contrary to the word of the Lord in the specific instruction He gives you personally.

[Luke]

There are certain things in the endowment which should not be taught openly. You (are supposed to) covenant to not reveal them, with certain penalties attached to it.

Those are the things I have problems with. No penalty should be associated with a secret sign or phrase while making a covenant. The only penalty comes when you voluntarily go contrary to the word of the Lord in the specific instruction He gives you personally.

I don't believe this at all. The ordinances should not change no matter how much you don't like them. It sounds just like ex-Mormons who "have problems" with the absence of gay sealings, for instance.

• Alma 46
  22 Now this was the covenant which they made, and they cast their garments at the feet of Moroni, saying: We covenant with our God, that we shall be destroyed, even as our brethren in the land northward, if we shall fall into transgression; yea, he may cast us at the feet of our enemies, even as we have cast our garments at thy feet to be trodden under foot, if we shall fall into transgression.

[Seeker144k]

Truth should be taught openly.

Not always. Casting pearls before swine is not wise.

Open to anyone who is willing to listen, yes. Teaching the precepts of the core laws and ordinances is not some secret hidden away thing that we have to be "hush hush" about. Casting pearls before swine has nothing to do with teaching any and all who have a heart that is willing to listen.

My issues w/ the endowment start before you even step in the front door.

I also see many blaringly obvious issues with the endowment before you even step in the door. You called out the first one that people are covenanting to things they don't even understand after they have the endowment. They clearly were not prepared before they showed up at the door and were placed under duress.

I could write a book on the issues with the endowment. And that is the point. People go through the process and come out confused and "un-endowed". They think they received something important and essential, but they are missing everything spiritual. I've heard of people practicing the prayer circle in their homes trying to breach the veil and talk to God. The first thing they do is raise their hands in the air and speak in vain repetitions asking God to hear the words of their mouth. Somehow they cannot see the irony and issue with that. It's like they never heard a lesson on how to pray with real intent.

~Seeker

[Mamabear]

“We have been informed that some unprincipled men whose names we will not mention at present have been guilty of such crimes: we do not mention their names, not knowing but what there may be some among you who are not sufficiently skilled in Masonry as to keep a secret”2
Joseph Smith

2 “According to Wilford Woodruff, JS discussed secrecy in a 19 December 1841 discourse, stating: “The reason we do not have the secrets of the Lord revealed unto us is because we do not keep them but reveal them, we do not keep our own secrets but reveal our difficulties to the world even to our enemies then how would we keep the secrets of the Lord . . . I can keep a secret till dooms day.” On 15 March 1842 JS was initiated into Freemasonry, an organization whose ceremonies often included oaths of secrecy.”

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... rch-1842/2

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[Mamabear]

Truth should be taught openly.

Not always. Casting pearls before swine is not wise.

Open to anyone who is willing to listen, yes. Teaching the precepts of the core laws and ordinances is not some secret hidden away thing that we have to be "hush hush" about. Casting pearls before swine has nothing to do with teaching any and all who have a heart that is willing to listen.

My issues w/ the endowment start before you even step in the front door.

I also see many blaringly obvious issues with the endowment before you even step in the door. You called out the first one that people are covenanting to things they don't even understand after they have the endowment. They clearly were not prepared before they showed up at the door and were placed under duress.

I could write a book on the issues with the endowment. And that is the point. People go through the process and come out confused and "un-endowed". They think they received something important and essential, but they are missing everything spiritual. I've heard of people practicing the prayer circle in their homes trying to breach the veil and talk to God. The first thing they do is raise their hands in the air and speak in vain repetitions asking God to hear the words of their mouth. Somehow they cannot see the irony and issue with that. It's like they never heard a lesson on how to pray with real intent.

~Seeker

What’s wrong with it is that it’s a copycat of masonry and people are sucked into masonry without knowing it. It’s deceptive and evil.
God isn’t a mason or a mormon

[Luke]

God isn’t * * * a mormon

He definitely is.

[Mamabear]

God isn’t * * * a mormon

He definitely is.

The God I know has nothing to do with signs and tokens bought with money and derived from masonry.