Unrighteous Church Ordinance Interviews

[Luke]

He has been baptized, and I feel the holy spirit. I ended up using a large pool from Facebook, where we could both stand and he could be immersed. He's been going through 6 months of classes with the missionaries, attending church, showing true repentance and believes in Jesus, he was denied twice, he endured, and the day has finally come.

The holy spirit by the laying on of hands is next.

Claiming to have been authorized to perform salvific ordinances in the name of Jesus Christ is no trifling matter. You are quite literally playing games with your brother’s salvation.

If you have integrity you should probably let your bishop know what you’ve done and let the chips fall where they may.

Sorry brother, but you have no idea whether he has been authorised or not. Not sure why the first conclusion to jump to is that he isn't, though. Why do you assume that he isn't?

Unless I completely misread the thread, didn’t he say the person was told he/she could not be baptized by the institutional church multiple times? Am I crossing wires here? If so I sincerely apologize.

Yes, he did say that. That was the premise of the thread.

That, however, is not my point. My point is that just because an institution (one, that I might add, has evidently gone astray) says that this man cannot be baptised, doesn't mean that God thinks so. They are clearly two very different things.

[Serragon]

It seems clear to me from the scriptures and from Church history that the requirements for baptism should be small in number. Faith and repentance. While the requirements for other ordinances should be more stringent, such as demonstrating faith before receiving the priesthood.

It has seemed to me for a while that we actually have it backwards in the church. We add a bunch of institutional requirements for baptism, and then hand out things like the priesthood like candy.

[Luke]

It seems clear to me from the scriptures and from Church history that the requirements for baptism should be small in number. Faith and repentance. While the requirements for other ordinances should be more stringent, such as demonstrating faith before receiving the priesthood.

It has seemed to me for a while that we actually have it backwards in the church. We add a bunch of institutional requirements for baptism, and then hand out things like the priesthood like candy.

Astute observation. I had never thought of that in such a connection, but you are completely right.

[Cruiserdude]

It seems clear to me from the scriptures and from Church history that the requirements for baptism should be small in number. Faith and repentance. While the requirements for other ordinances should be more stringent, such as demonstrating faith before receiving the priesthood.

It has seemed to me for a while that we actually have it backwards in the church. We add a bunch of institutional requirements for baptism, and then hand out things like the priesthood like candy.

Well well well, it really does seem backwards if we sincerely take a step back and look at it

[Reluctant Watchman]

In reality, these desires for baptism and the priesthood should come as revelation to the individual.

[Seeker144k]

Mark 9 was shared in a post recently, about plucking out Seers, perfect timing and very helpful.

The Church follows the handbook to the T, the Missionaries "Preach my Gospel", and the leaders and members use of "Handbook 1", which are essentially devices used by Satan to transgress the word of God. Someone or a group of men, at some point in the past, thought up the idea at some point, to not follow Gods word, to not teach it in truth, and instead they devised a method of deceiving millions of people, generation after generation through both books use.

As we learn to come back to sound doctrine as a church, all things that are not canonized need to be shredded first. After that, there are some tares remaining in the canonized scripture that will need to be snuffed out.
I'm ready to publish the list of all the church falsehoods that need to be corrected, and will do so soon. From deceptive home ward requirements, tithing falsehoods, rejecting the United Order, unsound doctrine, there is so much needing to be done to restore and rebuild the church. I delight in this work and posting here will help me contribute to the restoration.

Here are the circumstances.

All deceived missionaries, mission presidents, and Bishops involved in interviewing for ordinances, follow these church instructions. Some people, to the T, they believe they are doing what is just and righteous. In his Justice, God proves the church and those in the church of right doing and wrong doing. He already knows what's ahead but to be just he allows the evidence to first collect.

My friend was recently denied his Baptism, twice, after 2 interviews with the Sisters and/or the Mission President.

Unjust Cause 1 - He was homeless, so the leaders decided they couldn't baptize him because he had no assigned ward.

Unjust Cause 2 - I gave him a home and an address, God made him a way and introduced us, and this second time he was rejected for having a pending court trial... which even by thr deceiving handbook standards, he should have still been accepted. He clearly displays the baptism requirements outlined in scripture.

Soon after, my wife and I were denied our Endowments, by interview with the Bishop last week. He seemed aggravated, and started with, are you guys full tithe payers... Well, I've been following the holy spirits direction with tithing the best I can, and it looks closer to the United Order, I read parts of D&C 119 to him and told him I believed I was a full tithe payer, and said that its a bit different than giving just cash.

Thr Bishop told me that I wasn't following Gods will, neither was I following the Holy Spirit, and I was coming up with revelations for the church that I had no right to receive, that I was deceived basically. So we were rejected this ordinance.

From this forum I came across this scripture, which helps us to know what to do, after being rejected from receiving ordinances that we should have received, due to leadership in the church rejecting us, sinning against us, falsely accusing us, deceiving us, and causing us in some cases to sin as an after effect. There are many more applications for this truth, this is my testimony of it.


Mark 9 Restored Scripture

40 Therefore, if thy hand offend thee, cut it off; or if thy brother offend thee and confess not and forsake not, he shall be cut off. It is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands, to go into hell.
41 For it is better for thee to enter into life without thy brother, than for thee and thy brother to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
42 And again, if thy foot offend thee, cut it off; for he that is thy standard, by whom thou walkest, if he become a transgressor, he shall be cut off.
43 It is better for thee, to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched.
44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.
45 Seek unto my Father, and it shall be done in that very moment what ye shall ask, if ye ask in faith, believing that ye shall receive.
46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.
47 It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God, with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
48 For it is better that thyself should be saved, than to be cast into hell with thy brother, where their worm dieth not, and where the fire is not quenched.


My own conclusion:
Therefore, verse 44, be accountable for your on decisions and follow not deceiving leadership. Verse 45, seek and ask of Heavenly Father, that he will make a way for you, and I believe he has, I may be heading to a different ward here shortly to start on that pathway.

I was led today to read this chapter to my friend, who was rejected from Baptism twice, and it helped him, and my family, very much. He was close to tossing everything out the window, I was tempted too, but we need to remember this is his church, not the church of those who have wronged us. There is still hope, and this church will soon receive its judgements and will be back in pure doctrine.


I say this in the name of Jesus Christ

Don't bother beating your head against the wall chasing after dead works from an organization that persecutes and punishes the spiritually living. If you want to fix the system, you have to go back to the Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

D&C 39
5 And verily, verily, I say unto you, he that receiveth my gospel receiveth me; and he that receiveth not my gospel receiveth not me.
6 And this is my gospel—repentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom.

D&C 33
11 Yea, repent and be baptized, every one of you, for a remission of your sins; yea, be baptized even by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost.
12 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and remember that they shall have faith in me or they can in nowise be saved;
13 And upon this rock I will build my church; yea, upon this rock ye are built, and if ye continue, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.

3 Nephi 27:20-21
20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.
21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;

This gospel contains the "only doctrine that is in Christ". Whenever someone preaches more or less than this and calls it Christ's doctrine or Gospel, they are opening the gates of hell and teaching that which comes of evil.

D&C 10
62 Yea, and I will also bring to light my gospel which was ministered unto them (Nephites), and, behold, they shall not deny that which you have received, but they shall build it up, and shall bring to light the true points of my doctrine, yea, and the only doctrine which is in me.
63 And this I do that I may establish my gospel, that there may not be so much contention; yea, Satan doth stir up the hearts of the people to contention concerning the points of my doctrine; and in these things they do err, for they do wrest the scriptures and do not understand them.
...
67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.
68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.
69 And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

After Jesus teaches the gospel several times in the chapter, he concludes by saying the following:
3 Nephi 11
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.

Nephi Gives Christ as an example of living the gospel, then teaches the gospel several times, then says...
2 Nephi 31
17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.
18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.
(Then explains that we are to endure to the end by following the Holy Ghost.)
...
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

Nephi continues on in the next chapter assuming that you the reader has accepted the gospel of Jesus Christ and followed it by repenting and being baptized and receiving the Holy Ghost. He tells us that the Holy Ghost will tell us all things that we should do and that since we already fulfilled the other doctrines by repenting and being baptized, this is the only doctrine of Christ we have and there will be no more doctrines given until Christ comes to us in the flesh.

2 Nephi 32
5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.
6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.

Regarding your homeless friend...
If you truly repent and come to Christ, and pray beg God for the remission of your sins, He will send you the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost as a witness they you have been forgiven and are accepted by him. Contrary to what is currently taught in the church, we are supposed to receive the remission of our sins and the Holy Ghost prior to being baptized and live accordingly as a witness that we are worthy of baptism which is a physical sign or manifestation of a spiritual unseen reality. The Lord specifically commanded us to receive the remission of our sins and the spirit before getting baptized.

D&C 20
37 And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism—All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church.

This commandment is in line with what was done in the Book of Mormon which tells us that people received a remission of their sins before being baptized.

3 Nephi 7
25 Therefore, there were ordained of Nephi, men unto this ministry, that all such as should come unto them should be baptized with water, and this as a witness and a testimony before God, and unto the people, that they had repented and received a remission of their sins.

God will not withhold any blessings you are worthy of due to men's unrighteous dominion. The scriptures are filled with examples of people receiving the remission of sins and the baptism of fire without baptism of water or the laying on of hands. For example, Mosiah 4-5, Hel. 5, 3 Nephi 19, etc. Here's an example of Jesus making this same promise and referencing the Lamanites in Hel. 5 as an example. They were neither baptized, nor had hands laid on them, but they received a remission of sins and the baptism of fire:

3 Nephi 9
20 And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.

~Seeker

[buffalo_girl]

The story of Alma's repentance when hearing Abinadi's rebuke of King Noah's corruption illustrates how baptism by those without institutional 'permission' occurred for those desiring baptism under such circumstances. Here's the story from a 1996 Children's Friend with appropriate scriptural references. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... n?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... 8?lang=eng

Alma repented of his sins, went to a place with water called Mormon, and began to preach the words of Abinadi “privately, that it might not come to the knowledge of the king. And many did believe his words.

“… And he did teach them, and did preach unto them repentance, and redemption, and faith on the Lord.” (Mosiah 18:3, 7.)

He also taught them the importance of the ordinance of baptism. When you are baptized in the name of the Lord, he said, you are witnessing “before him that ye have entered into a covenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments, that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you” (Mosiah 18:10).

A man called Helam was one of the first of the people who stepped forward to be baptized. When Alma and Helam stood in the Waters of Mormon, Alma asked the Lord for His authority to perform the ordinance. The Spirit of the Lord came upon Alma, and he said, “Helam, I baptize thee, having authority from the Almighty God, as a testimony that ye have entered into a covenant to serve him until you are dead as to the mortal body; and may the Spirit of the Lord be poured out upon you; and may he grant unto you eternal life, through the redemption of Christ” (Mosiah 18:13).
Then both he and Helam were “buried in the water; and they arose and came forth out of the water rejoicing, being filled with the Spirit” (Mosiah 18:14) and “with the grace of God” (Mosiah 18:16).

Obedience to 'jots & tittles' imposed by the existing institution suggests - to me - the very essence of The Gentile (mis)understanding of The Spirit of Christ.

Matthew 8:20
And a certain scribe came, and said unto him, Master, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest. And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Mark 9 was shared in a post recently, about plucking out Seers, perfect timing and very helpful.

The Church follows the handbook to the T, the Missionaries "Preach my Gospel", and the leaders and members use of "Handbook 1", which are essentially devices used by Satan to transgress the word of God. Someone or a group of men, at some point in the past, thought up the idea at some point, to not follow Gods word, to not teach it in truth, and instead they devised a method of deceiving millions of people, generation after generation through both books use.

As we learn to come back to sound doctrine as a church, all things that are not canonized need to be shredded first. After that, there are some tares remaining in the canonized scripture that will need to be snuffed out.
I'm ready to publish the list of all the church falsehoods that need to be corrected, and will do so soon. From deceptive home ward requirements, tithing falsehoods, rejecting the United Order, unsound doctrine, there is so much needing to be done to restore and rebuild the church. I delight in this work and posting here will help me contribute to the restoration.

Here are the circumstances.

All deceived missionaries, mission presidents, and Bishops involved in interviewing for ordinances, follow these church instructions. Some people, to the T, they believe they are doing what is just and righteous. In his Justice, God proves the church and those in the church of right doing and wrong doing. He already knows what's ahead but to be just he allows the evidence to first collect.

My friend was recently denied his Baptism, twice, after 2 interviews with the Sisters and/or the Mission President.

Unjust Cause 1 - He was homeless, so the leaders decided they couldn't baptize him because he had no assigned ward.

Unjust Cause 2 - I gave him a home and an address, God made him a way and introduced us, and this second time he was rejected for having a pending court trial... which even by thr deceiving handbook standards, he should have still been accepted. He clearly displays the baptism requirements outlined in scripture.

Soon after, my wife and I were denied our Endowments, by interview with the Bishop last week. He seemed aggravated, and started with, are you guys full tithe payers... Well, I've been following the holy spirits direction with tithing the best I can, and it looks closer to the United Order, I read parts of D&C 119 to him and told him I believed I was a full tithe payer, and said that its a bit different than giving just cash.

Thr Bishop told me that I wasn't following Gods will, neither was I following the Holy Spirit, and I was coming up with revelations for the church that I had no right to receive, that I was deceived basically. So we were rejected this ordinance.

From this forum I came across this scripture, which helps us to know what to do, after being rejected from receiving ordinances that we should have received, due to leadership in the church rejecting us, sinning against us, falsely accusing us, deceiving us, and causing us in some cases to sin as an after effect. There are many more applications for this truth, this is my testimony of it.


Mark 9 Restored Scripture

40 Therefore, if thy hand offend thee, cut it off; or if thy brother offend thee and confess not and forsake not, he shall be cut off. It is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands, to go into hell.
41 For it is better for thee to enter into life without thy brother, than for thee and thy brother to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
42 And again, if thy foot offend thee, cut it off; for he that is thy standard, by whom thou walkest, if he become a transgressor, he shall be cut off.
43 It is better for thee, to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched.
44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.
45 Seek unto my Father, and it shall be done in that very moment what ye shall ask, if ye ask in faith, believing that ye shall receive.
46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.
47 It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God, with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
48 For it is better that thyself should be saved, than to be cast into hell with thy brother, where their worm dieth not, and where the fire is not quenched.


My own conclusion:
Therefore, verse 44, be accountable for your on decisions and follow not deceiving leadership. Verse 45, seek and ask of Heavenly Father, that he will make a way for you, and I believe he has, I may be heading to a different ward here shortly to start on that pathway.

I was led today to read this chapter to my friend, who was rejected from Baptism twice, and it helped him, and my family, very much. He was close to tossing everything out the window, I was tempted too, but we need to remember this is his church, not the church of those who have wronged us. There is still hope, and this church will soon receive its judgements and will be back in pure doctrine.


I say this in the name of Jesus Christ

Don't bother beating your head against the wall chasing after dead works from an organization that persecutes and punishes the spiritually living. If you want to fix the system, you have to go back to the Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

D&C 39
5 And verily, verily, I say unto you, he that receiveth my gospel receiveth me; and he that receiveth not my gospel receiveth not me.
6 And this is my gospel—repentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom.

D&C 33
11 Yea, repent and be baptized, every one of you, for a remission of your sins; yea, be baptized even by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost.
12 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and remember that they shall have faith in me or they can in nowise be saved;
13 And upon this rock I will build my church; yea, upon this rock ye are built, and if ye continue, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.

3 Nephi 27:20-21
20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.
21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;

This gospel contains the "only doctrine that is in Christ". Whenever someone preaches more or less than this and calls it Christ's doctrine or Gospel, they are opening the gates of hell and teaching that which comes of evil.

D&C 10
62 Yea, and I will also bring to light my gospel which was ministered unto them (Nephites), and, behold, they shall not deny that which you have received, but they shall build it up, and shall bring to light the true points of my doctrine, yea, and the only doctrine which is in me.
63 And this I do that I may establish my gospel, that there may not be so much contention; yea, Satan doth stir up the hearts of the people to contention concerning the points of my doctrine; and in these things they do err, for they do wrest the scriptures and do not understand them.
...
67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.
68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.
69 And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

After Jesus teaches the gospel several times in the chapter, he concludes by saying the following:
3 Nephi 11
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.

Nephi Gives Christ as an example of living the gospel, then teaches the gospel several times, then says...
2 Nephi 31
17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.
18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.
(Then explains that we are to endure to the end by following the Holy Ghost.)
...
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

Nephi continues on in the next chapter assuming that you the reader has accepted the gospel of Jesus Christ and followed it by repenting and being baptized and receiving the Holy Ghost. He tells us that the Holy Ghost will tell us all things that we should do and that since we already fulfilled the other doctrines by repenting and being baptized, this is the only doctrine of Christ we have and there will be no more doctrines given until Christ comes to us in the flesh.

2 Nephi 32
5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.
6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.

Regarding your homeless friend...
If you truly repent and come to Christ, and pray beg God for the remission of your sins, He will send you the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost as a witness they you have been forgiven and are accepted by him. Contrary to what is currently taught in the church, we are supposed to receive the remission of our sins and the Holy Ghost prior to being baptized and live accordingly as a witness that we are worthy of baptism which is a physical sign or manifestation of a spiritual unseen reality. The Lord specifically commanded us to receive the remission of our sins and the spirit before getting baptized.

D&C 20
37 And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism—All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church.

This commandment is in line with what was done in the Book of Mormon which tells us that people received a remission of their sins before being baptized.

3 Nephi 7
25 Therefore, there were ordained of Nephi, men unto this ministry, that all such as should come unto them should be baptized with water, and this as a witness and a testimony before God, and unto the people, that they had repented and received a remission of their sins.

God will not withhold any blessings you are worthy of due to men's unrighteous dominion. The scriptures are filled with examples of people receiving the remission of sins and the baptism of fire without baptism of water or the laying on of hands. For example, Mosiah 4-5, Hel. 5, 3 Nephi 19, etc. Here's an example of Jesus making this same promise and referencing the Lamanites in Hel. 5 as an example. They were neither baptized, nor had hands laid on them, but they received a remission of sins and the baptism of fire:

3 Nephi 9
20 And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.

~Seeker

Read 3 Nephi 11 again. Christ outlines “His” gospel. And yes, what you outlined is the foundation, that we don’t add to or take away from. BUT, what most people overlook is that Christ said that these principles are what we are to “build” upon. They weren’t the only thing. I will also add, the temple ordinances in the LDS church are a shell of what they should be, and even some deviations from truth.

[Seeker144k]

Mark 9 was shared in a post recently, about plucking out Seers, perfect timing and very helpful.

The Church follows the handbook to the T, the Missionaries "Preach my Gospel", and the leaders and members use of "Handbook 1", which are essentially devices used by Satan to transgress the word of God. Someone or a group of men, at some point in the past, thought up the idea at some point, to not follow Gods word, to not teach it in truth, and instead they devised a method of deceiving millions of people, generation after generation through both books use.

As we learn to come back to sound doctrine as a church, all things that are not canonized need to be shredded first. After that, there are some tares remaining in the canonized scripture that will need to be snuffed out.
I'm ready to publish the list of all the church falsehoods that need to be corrected, and will do so soon. From deceptive home ward requirements, tithing falsehoods, rejecting the United Order, unsound doctrine, there is so much needing to be done to restore and rebuild the church. I delight in this work and posting here will help me contribute to the restoration.

Here are the circumstances.

All deceived missionaries, mission presidents, and Bishops involved in interviewing for ordinances, follow these church instructions. Some people, to the T, they believe they are doing what is just and righteous. In his Justice, God proves the church and those in the church of right doing and wrong doing. He already knows what's ahead but to be just he allows the evidence to first collect.

My friend was recently denied his Baptism, twice, after 2 interviews with the Sisters and/or the Mission President.

Unjust Cause 1 - He was homeless, so the leaders decided they couldn't baptize him because he had no assigned ward.

Unjust Cause 2 - I gave him a home and an address, God made him a way and introduced us, and this second time he was rejected for having a pending court trial... which even by thr deceiving handbook standards, he should have still been accepted. He clearly displays the baptism requirements outlined in scripture.

Soon after, my wife and I were denied our Endowments, by interview with the Bishop last week. He seemed aggravated, and started with, are you guys full tithe payers... Well, I've been following the holy spirits direction with tithing the best I can, and it looks closer to the United Order, I read parts of D&C 119 to him and told him I believed I was a full tithe payer, and said that its a bit different than giving just cash.

Thr Bishop told me that I wasn't following Gods will, neither was I following the Holy Spirit, and I was coming up with revelations for the church that I had no right to receive, that I was deceived basically. So we were rejected this ordinance.

From this forum I came across this scripture, which helps us to know what to do, after being rejected from receiving ordinances that we should have received, due to leadership in the church rejecting us, sinning against us, falsely accusing us, deceiving us, and causing us in some cases to sin as an after effect. There are many more applications for this truth, this is my testimony of it.


Mark 9 Restored Scripture

40 Therefore, if thy hand offend thee, cut it off; or if thy brother offend thee and confess not and forsake not, he shall be cut off. It is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands, to go into hell.
41 For it is better for thee to enter into life without thy brother, than for thee and thy brother to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
42 And again, if thy foot offend thee, cut it off; for he that is thy standard, by whom thou walkest, if he become a transgressor, he shall be cut off.
43 It is better for thee, to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched.
44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.
45 Seek unto my Father, and it shall be done in that very moment what ye shall ask, if ye ask in faith, believing that ye shall receive.
46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.
47 It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God, with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
48 For it is better that thyself should be saved, than to be cast into hell with thy brother, where their worm dieth not, and where the fire is not quenched.


My own conclusion:
Therefore, verse 44, be accountable for your on decisions and follow not deceiving leadership. Verse 45, seek and ask of Heavenly Father, that he will make a way for you, and I believe he has, I may be heading to a different ward here shortly to start on that pathway.

I was led today to read this chapter to my friend, who was rejected from Baptism twice, and it helped him, and my family, very much. He was close to tossing everything out the window, I was tempted too, but we need to remember this is his church, not the church of those who have wronged us. There is still hope, and this church will soon receive its judgements and will be back in pure doctrine.


I say this in the name of Jesus Christ

Don't bother beating your head against the wall chasing after dead works from an organization that persecutes and punishes the spiritually living. If you want to fix the system, you have to go back to the Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

D&C 39
5 And verily, verily, I say unto you, he that receiveth my gospel receiveth me; and he that receiveth not my gospel receiveth not me.
6 And this is my gospel—repentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom.

D&C 33
11 Yea, repent and be baptized, every one of you, for a remission of your sins; yea, be baptized even by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost.
12 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and remember that they shall have faith in me or they can in nowise be saved;
13 And upon this rock I will build my church; yea, upon this rock ye are built, and if ye continue, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.

3 Nephi 27:20-21
20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.
21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;

This gospel contains the "only doctrine that is in Christ". Whenever someone preaches more or less than this and calls it Christ's doctrine or Gospel, they are opening the gates of hell and teaching that which comes of evil.

D&C 10
62 Yea, and I will also bring to light my gospel which was ministered unto them (Nephites), and, behold, they shall not deny that which you have received, but they shall build it up, and shall bring to light the true points of my doctrine, yea, and the only doctrine which is in me.
63 And this I do that I may establish my gospel, that there may not be so much contention; yea, Satan doth stir up the hearts of the people to contention concerning the points of my doctrine; and in these things they do err, for they do wrest the scriptures and do not understand them.
...
67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.
68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.
69 And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

After Jesus teaches the gospel several times in the chapter, he concludes by saying the following:
3 Nephi 11
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.

Nephi Gives Christ as an example of living the gospel, then teaches the gospel several times, then says...
2 Nephi 31
17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.
18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.
(Then explains that we are to endure to the end by following the Holy Ghost.)
...
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

Nephi continues on in the next chapter assuming that you the reader has accepted the gospel of Jesus Christ and followed it by repenting and being baptized and receiving the Holy Ghost. He tells us that the Holy Ghost will tell us all things that we should do and that since we already fulfilled the other doctrines by repenting and being baptized, this is the only doctrine of Christ we have and there will be no more doctrines given until Christ comes to us in the flesh.

2 Nephi 32
5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.
6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.

Regarding your homeless friend...
If you truly repent and come to Christ, and pray beg God for the remission of your sins, He will send you the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost as a witness they you have been forgiven and are accepted by him. Contrary to what is currently taught in the church, we are supposed to receive the remission of our sins and the Holy Ghost prior to being baptized and live accordingly as a witness that we are worthy of baptism which is a physical sign or manifestation of a spiritual unseen reality. The Lord specifically commanded us to receive the remission of our sins and the spirit before getting baptized.

D&C 20
37 And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism—All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church.

This commandment is in line with what was done in the Book of Mormon which tells us that people received a remission of their sins before being baptized.

3 Nephi 7
25 Therefore, there were ordained of Nephi, men unto this ministry, that all such as should come unto them should be baptized with water, and this as a witness and a testimony before God, and unto the people, that they had repented and received a remission of their sins.

God will not withhold any blessings you are worthy of due to men's unrighteous dominion. The scriptures are filled with examples of people receiving the remission of sins and the baptism of fire without baptism of water or the laying on of hands. For example, Mosiah 4-5, Hel. 5, 3 Nephi 19, etc. Here's an example of Jesus making this same promise and referencing the Lamanites in Hel. 5 as an example. They were neither baptized, nor had hands laid on them, but they received a remission of sins and the baptism of fire:

3 Nephi 9
20 And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.

~Seeker

Read 3 Nephi 11 again. Christ outlines “His” gospel. And yes, what you outlined is the foundation, that we don’t add to or take away from. BUT, what most people overlook is that Christ said that these principles are what we are to “build” upon. They weren’t the only thing. I will also add, the temple ordinances in the LDS church are a shell of what they should be, and even some deviations from truth.

I think you meant to say that Christ outlines "His" doctrine? The word Gospel doesn't appear in the chapter. Same with 2 Nephi 32, his doctrine, not gospel. The doctrines make up the gospel. He told us that "whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil." There are several scriptures like the one from 2 Nephi 31 above where the Lord says that these are the "only" doctrines of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. Not the first doctrines, but the only doctrines. Tithing for example is not a doctrine of Christ. It is true, but so is 1+1=2. Not all truths are doctrines of Christ and not all truths are part of the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. In the scriptures we find the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and yet 1+1=2 is not in there, and a great number of truths are not in the scriptures. The Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and yet it doesn't talk about several principles and truths given in the D&C.

Yes, we are to build on the doctrines of Christ which is his gospel and his rock. Build on it and never build anything on it that destroys or takes you off of the foundation. Repent, be baptized and you will receive the Holy Ghost which tells you all things that you should do. Because the Holy Ghost tells you all things that you should do, you have everything you need to walk the path that leads to eternal life.

D&C 84
47 And every one that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit cometh unto God, even the Father.

To teach that tithing is a doctrine of Christ for example is incorrect. It is not a doctrine of Christ. It is a true principle, but it does not merit the sacred title of doctrine. It is a principle we can learn when we build upon the rock, but it is not the rock. A person can pay tithing and fall because they are not built on the rock. A person who builds on the rock cannot fall.

Hel. 5
12 And now, my sons, remember, remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation; that when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, yea, his shafts in the whirlwind, yea, when all his hail and his mighty storm shall beat upon you, it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery and endless wo, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a foundation whereon if men build they cannot fall.

D&C 6
34 Therefore, fear not, little flock; do good; let earth and hell combine against you, for if ye are built upon my rock, they cannot prevail.

D&C 50
44 Wherefore, I am in your midst, and I am the good shepherd, and the stone of Israel. He that buildeth upon this rock shall never fall.

There are lots of true principles we can accept and follow and yet none of them are the rock on which if we build we cannot fall.

Here's a secret. You can accept the law of chastity and the law of tithing and the law of consecration and make these your foundation and even though they are true, they are sandy foundations from which you will fall.

Making your calling and election is like having the day of judgement moved forward and being told by God, "I know that you will never fall, so I will give you now all the promises and blessings of eternity." The only way to qualify for that promise and blessing is to build on the rock which is the sure foundation, on which if men build they cannot fall. D&C 76 says that people in the Terrestrial world have a testimony of Christ and his gospel, but they are blinded by the craftiness of men. If you build on the rock, (take the Holy Ghost to be your guide and let it show you all things that you should do), then you will not be blinded by the craftiness of men. If you build on any other foundation, you are making a choice that is destined to end in failure. That's why repeatedly throughout the scriptures it is called a sandy foundation which cannot stand the storm of the adversary.

The only doctrines of the Father, son and Holy Ghost are very specific for a reason. You may not understand that reason, but I do and I promise you with all the sincerity of my soul that they are the only doctrines accepted by the Father, son and Holy Ghost as doctrine for a reason. They make up the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They do not include all truth, but are in line with D&C 50:19-20 which tells us that only truth received by the spirit of truth comes of God and if truth is received in any other way, it is not of God. Even if that truth is a correct principle. This is what it means to build on the rock or sure foundation of the Gospel.

This is my witness. In Christ's name, Amen.

~Seeker

[Reluctant Watchman]

Mark 9 was shared in a post recently, about plucking out Seers, perfect timing and very helpful.

The Church follows the handbook to the T, the Missionaries "Preach my Gospel", and the leaders and members use of "Handbook 1", which are essentially devices used by Satan to transgress the word of God. Someone or a group of men, at some point in the past, thought up the idea at some point, to not follow Gods word, to not teach it in truth, and instead they devised a method of deceiving millions of people, generation after generation through both books use.

As we learn to come back to sound doctrine as a church, all things that are not canonized need to be shredded first. After that, there are some tares remaining in the canonized scripture that will need to be snuffed out.
I'm ready to publish the list of all the church falsehoods that need to be corrected, and will do so soon. From deceptive home ward requirements, tithing falsehoods, rejecting the United Order, unsound doctrine, there is so much needing to be done to restore and rebuild the church. I delight in this work and posting here will help me contribute to the restoration.

Here are the circumstances.

All deceived missionaries, mission presidents, and Bishops involved in interviewing for ordinances, follow these church instructions. Some people, to the T, they believe they are doing what is just and righteous. In his Justice, God proves the church and those in the church of right doing and wrong doing. He already knows what's ahead but to be just he allows the evidence to first collect.

My friend was recently denied his Baptism, twice, after 2 interviews with the Sisters and/or the Mission President.

Unjust Cause 1 - He was homeless, so the leaders decided they couldn't baptize him because he had no assigned ward.

Unjust Cause 2 - I gave him a home and an address, God made him a way and introduced us, and this second time he was rejected for having a pending court trial... which even by thr deceiving handbook standards, he should have still been accepted. He clearly displays the baptism requirements outlined in scripture.

Soon after, my wife and I were denied our Endowments, by interview with the Bishop last week. He seemed aggravated, and started with, are you guys full tithe payers... Well, I've been following the holy spirits direction with tithing the best I can, and it looks closer to the United Order, I read parts of D&C 119 to him and told him I believed I was a full tithe payer, and said that its a bit different than giving just cash.

Thr Bishop told me that I wasn't following Gods will, neither was I following the Holy Spirit, and I was coming up with revelations for the church that I had no right to receive, that I was deceived basically. So we were rejected this ordinance.

From this forum I came across this scripture, which helps us to know what to do, after being rejected from receiving ordinances that we should have received, due to leadership in the church rejecting us, sinning against us, falsely accusing us, deceiving us, and causing us in some cases to sin as an after effect. There are many more applications for this truth, this is my testimony of it.


Mark 9 Restored Scripture

40 Therefore, if thy hand offend thee, cut it off; or if thy brother offend thee and confess not and forsake not, he shall be cut off. It is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands, to go into hell.
41 For it is better for thee to enter into life without thy brother, than for thee and thy brother to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
42 And again, if thy foot offend thee, cut it off; for he that is thy standard, by whom thou walkest, if he become a transgressor, he shall be cut off.
43 It is better for thee, to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched.
44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.
45 Seek unto my Father, and it shall be done in that very moment what ye shall ask, if ye ask in faith, believing that ye shall receive.
46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.
47 It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God, with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
48 For it is better that thyself should be saved, than to be cast into hell with thy brother, where their worm dieth not, and where the fire is not quenched.


My own conclusion:
Therefore, verse 44, be accountable for your on decisions and follow not deceiving leadership. Verse 45, seek and ask of Heavenly Father, that he will make a way for you, and I believe he has, I may be heading to a different ward here shortly to start on that pathway.

I was led today to read this chapter to my friend, who was rejected from Baptism twice, and it helped him, and my family, very much. He was close to tossing everything out the window, I was tempted too, but we need to remember this is his church, not the church of those who have wronged us. There is still hope, and this church will soon receive its judgements and will be back in pure doctrine.


I say this in the name of Jesus Christ

Don't bother beating your head against the wall chasing after dead works from an organization that persecutes and punishes the spiritually living. If you want to fix the system, you have to go back to the Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

D&C 39
5 And verily, verily, I say unto you, he that receiveth my gospel receiveth me; and he that receiveth not my gospel receiveth not me.
6 And this is my gospel—repentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom.

D&C 33
11 Yea, repent and be baptized, every one of you, for a remission of your sins; yea, be baptized even by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost.
12 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and remember that they shall have faith in me or they can in nowise be saved;
13 And upon this rock I will build my church; yea, upon this rock ye are built, and if ye continue, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.

3 Nephi 27:20-21
20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.
21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;

This gospel contains the "only doctrine that is in Christ". Whenever someone preaches more or less than this and calls it Christ's doctrine or Gospel, they are opening the gates of hell and teaching that which comes of evil.

D&C 10
62 Yea, and I will also bring to light my gospel which was ministered unto them (Nephites), and, behold, they shall not deny that which you have received, but they shall build it up, and shall bring to light the true points of my doctrine, yea, and the only doctrine which is in me.
63 And this I do that I may establish my gospel, that there may not be so much contention; yea, Satan doth stir up the hearts of the people to contention concerning the points of my doctrine; and in these things they do err, for they do wrest the scriptures and do not understand them.
...
67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.
68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.
69 And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

After Jesus teaches the gospel several times in the chapter, he concludes by saying the following:
3 Nephi 11
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.

Nephi Gives Christ as an example of living the gospel, then teaches the gospel several times, then says...
2 Nephi 31
17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.
18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.
(Then explains that we are to endure to the end by following the Holy Ghost.)
...
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

Nephi continues on in the next chapter assuming that you the reader has accepted the gospel of Jesus Christ and followed it by repenting and being baptized and receiving the Holy Ghost. He tells us that the Holy Ghost will tell us all things that we should do and that since we already fulfilled the other doctrines by repenting and being baptized, this is the only doctrine of Christ we have and there will be no more doctrines given until Christ comes to us in the flesh.

2 Nephi 32
5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.
6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.

Regarding your homeless friend...
If you truly repent and come to Christ, and pray beg God for the remission of your sins, He will send you the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost as a witness they you have been forgiven and are accepted by him. Contrary to what is currently taught in the church, we are supposed to receive the remission of our sins and the Holy Ghost prior to being baptized and live accordingly as a witness that we are worthy of baptism which is a physical sign or manifestation of a spiritual unseen reality. The Lord specifically commanded us to receive the remission of our sins and the spirit before getting baptized.

D&C 20
37 And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism—All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church.

This commandment is in line with what was done in the Book of Mormon which tells us that people received a remission of their sins before being baptized.

3 Nephi 7
25 Therefore, there were ordained of Nephi, men unto this ministry, that all such as should come unto them should be baptized with water, and this as a witness and a testimony before God, and unto the people, that they had repented and received a remission of their sins.

God will not withhold any blessings you are worthy of due to men's unrighteous dominion. The scriptures are filled with examples of people receiving the remission of sins and the baptism of fire without baptism of water or the laying on of hands. For example, Mosiah 4-5, Hel. 5, 3 Nephi 19, etc. Here's an example of Jesus making this same promise and referencing the Lamanites in Hel. 5 as an example. They were neither baptized, nor had hands laid on them, but they received a remission of sins and the baptism of fire:

3 Nephi 9
20 And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.

~Seeker

Read 3 Nephi 11 again. Christ outlines “His” gospel. And yes, what you outlined is the foundation, that we don’t add to or take away from. BUT, what most people overlook is that Christ said that these principles are what we are to “build” upon. They weren’t the only thing. I will also add, the temple ordinances in the LDS church are a shell of what they should be, and even some deviations from truth.

I think you meant to say that Christ outlines "His" doctrine? The word Gospel doesn't appear in the chapter. Same with 2 Nephi 32, his doctrine, not gospel. The doctrines make up the gospel. He told us that "whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil." There are several scriptures like the one from 2 Nephi 31 above where the Lord says that these are the "only" doctrines of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. Not the first doctrines, but the only doctrines. Tithing for example is not a doctrine of Christ. It is true, but so is 1+1=2. Not all truths are doctrines of Christ and not all truths are part of the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. In the scriptures we find the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and yet 1+1=2 is not in there, and a great number of truths are not in the scriptures. The Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and yet it doesn't talk about several principles and truths given in the D&C.

Yes, we are to build on the doctrines of Christ which is his gospel and his rock. Build on it and never build anything on it that destroys or takes you off of the foundation. Repent, be baptized and you will receive the Holy Ghost which tells you all things that you should do. Because the Holy Ghost tells you all things that you should do, you have everything you need to walk the path that leads to eternal life.

D&C 84
47 And every one that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit cometh unto God, even the Father.

To teach that tithing is a doctrine of Christ for example is incorrect. It is not a doctrine of Christ. It is a true principle, but it does not merit the sacred title of doctrine. It is a principle we can learn when we build upon the rock, but it is not the rock. A person can pay tithing and fall because they are not built on the rock. A person who builds on the rock cannot fall.

Hel. 5
12 And now, my sons, remember, remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation; that when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, yea, his shafts in the whirlwind, yea, when all his hail and his mighty storm shall beat upon you, it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery and endless wo, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a foundation whereon if men build they cannot fall.

D&C 6
34 Therefore, fear not, little flock; do good; let earth and hell combine against you, for if ye are built upon my rock, they cannot prevail.

D&C 50
44 Wherefore, I am in your midst, and I am the good shepherd, and the stone of Israel. He that buildeth upon this rock shall never fall.

There are lots of true principles we can accept and follow and yet none of them are the rock on which if we build we cannot fall.

Here's a secret. You can accept the law of chastity and the law of tithing and the law of consecration and make these your foundation and even though they are true, they are sandy foundations from which you will fall.

Making your calling and election is like having the day of judgement moved forward and being told by God, "I know that you will never fall, so I will give you now all the promises and blessings of eternity." The only way to qualify for that promise and blessing is to build on the rock which is the sure foundation, on which if men build they cannot fall. D&C 76 says that people in the Terrestrial world have a testimony of Christ and his gospel, but they are blinded by the craftiness of men. If you build on the rock, (take the Holy Ghost to be your guide and let it show you all things that you should do), then you will not be blinded by the craftiness of men. If you build on any other foundation, you are making a choice that is destined to end in failure. That's why repeatedly throughout the scriptures it is called a sandy foundation which cannot stand the storm of the adversary.

The only doctrines of the Father, son and Holy Ghost are very specific for a reason. You may not understand that reason, but I do and I promise you with all the sincerity of my soul that they are the only doctrines accepted by the Father, son and Holy Ghost as doctrine for a reason. They make up the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They do not include all truth, but are in line with D&C 50:19-20 which tells us that only truth received by the spirit of truth comes of God and if truth is received in any other way, it is not of God. Even if that truth is a correct principle. This is what it means to build on the rock or sure foundation of the Gospel.

This is my witness. In Christ's name, Amen.

~Seeker

Your last paragraph just makes me roll my eyes. “You may not understand…., but I do.” I always find it interesting when people say that they know the “secret sauce”, yet they never actually share what that sauce is.

Study the definition of the word “doctrine.” Christ taught his doctrine in great sermons. He taught his disciples doctrine. Every group he visited after his crucifixion were taught “His doctrine”, which is beautiful and wonderful. All Christ is outlining in 2 Nephi 31 and 3 Nephi 11 is the foundation. If you get that wrong, then not much else matters. That’s why He used the word “build.” Is virtue a doctrine? Yes. Is the law of sacrifice a doctrine? Yes. Is consecration a doctrine? Yes. Does the law of the gospel (I like to use the phrase “Pillar of Knowledge) include doctrine? Yes. It encompasses the entirety of the plan of salvation from Pre-mortal existence to our judgement, Christ being our advocate w/ the Father.

[Seeker144k]

Your last paragraph just makes me roll my eyes. “You may not understand…., but I do.” I always find it interesting when people say that they know the “secret sauce”, yet they never actually share what that sauce is.

I shared the "secret sauce" in that post, two major points. You may not understand what I shared, but I do.

Study the definition of the word “doctrine.”

Are you using the definition of doctrine that the world uses or the one that Christ uses? From which source do you suggest that I study the definition of doctrine? The dictionary or the words of Christ and how he used the word? I'm pointing out that in his own words in 3 Nephi 11 he explained his doctrine, his entire doctrine and nothing but his doctrine. He began by saying "You have been disputing my doctrine which is not good. I'm going to tell you my doctrine so that I can settle the debate about what my doctrine is once and for all. Here is my doctrine..." Then he teaches his doctrine several times. After teaching his doctrine clearly several times so we don't miss it, he says, "That is my doctrine and anyone who declares more or less than this and tells you that it is my doctrine comes of evil and opens the gates of hell to receive you." In this entire exchange, he doesn't say, this is the beginning of my doctrine or this is part of my doctrine. He says this is it, my doctrine, indicating that he is giving us the entire thing. Then, when he finishes, he say that was it, my doctrine, indicating the entire thing. And his concluding remarks seal the deal. He says, it's ok to teach more or less than what I just taught, but teaching more or leas than what I just taught and telling people that it is my doctrine comes of evil and opens the gates of hell to receive them. That statement wraps a nice ribbon around it by defining that anything less than this is not his complete doctrine and anything more than this is beyond his doctrine. This is the definition of doctrine that Christ uses. Here it is in the scripture:

3 Nephi 11
31 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine.
32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.
33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.
34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.
35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.
36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.
37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things (the Holy Ghost and the witness of the Father and the Son).
38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.

You are literally saying that there are more "doctrines" that are Christ's doctrine. You are declaring more than this and establishing it for Christ's doctrine. He literally said that comes of evil and that by doing so you are not built on his rock and the gates of hell stand open to receive you.

I'll say it again, these special principles combined form the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and are unique from all other principles of truth BECAUSE they form the rock on which if you build you cannot fall. You can build on any other combinations of true principles and you will fall when the floods come and the winds beat upon you. It doesn't matter if your combination of true principles is less than what Christ taught here, or more than what Christ taught here or different than what Christ taught here. Any other combination of true principles do not make up the rock, the gospel of Jesus Christ or represent his doctrines in their completeness. If you build on any other foundation, you will fall and therefore cannot qualify for the promise of eternal life which we call making your calling and election sure. If your foundation consists of less doctrines than he just taught, or more doctrines than he just taught, or different doctrines than he just taught, then you cannot qualify for the promise of eternal life because you are built on a sandy foundation from which you are promised that you will fall. God cannot give the promise of eternal life unless He knows that you will not fall and the way He knows whether or not you will fall is by looking at the foundation you are built on. Are you built on this rock or are you built on sand. This is the only rock or sure foundation. Every other combination of true principles is sand.

Why? Because this foundation ensures that you are in direct communication with God through the Holy Ghost. Via that correct communication with God, He personally can instruct and guide you and clear away the sand and teach you the truths of heaven. Adding to this list of doctrines and making them part of your foundation means that God cannot correct you on those points. For example, if following prophets and apostles is part of your foundation on which you are built, then if you learn that your prophets and apostles are false, then you have lost your anchor or foundation and you are tossed into chaos uncertain of what is true and what is not true. If tithing is part of your foundation and you later realize that paying tithing results in some evil or wrong, out goes your foundations and you are tossed around in the whirlwind. Let's say that you do what the church teaches you to do and you make the Book of Mormon your foundation. What happens when you come across the anachronisms or realize that it has been changed thousands of times or that Joseph didn't actually translate it the way you were taught or that computer analysis finds identical stories, names and places in other books Joseph had access to as a child, or that in Emma Smith's journal she tells us that long before Joseph received the book of Mormon he was telling stories about Nephites who lived in America and she records a dream Joseph Smith Sr. had before Joseph received the book of Mormon and that dream identically mirrors Lehi's dream of the tree of life except that the iron rod was a rope, etc.? What happens if you build your foundation on the Book of Mormon and find out about the Kinderhook plates where Joseph Smith was tricked by locals who faked some plates and asked him to translate them and Joseph said they were an ancient record and translated them before they told Joseph that they forged them to see if he was really able to translate and he was caught in a lie. Or the Book of Abraham which we now can translate and it has nothing to do with what Joseph said the translation is? Your foundation is a weak foundation and you will fall.

There is only one foundation from which you cannot fall and that foundation is personal experience with God which comes by receiving and following the Holy Ghost. When we receive and follow the Holy Ghost, we gain personal experience and witness miracles and gain information that is far beyond the intelligence of men. It doesn't matter what anyone throws at you. It doesn't matter if in your eyes Joseph Smith falls and the Book of Mormon is proved false and the President of the church is caught in some great conspiracy, etc. Nothing can knock you off your foundation because it doesn't matter. You know God for yourself from your own experience. You become your own sure witness and everything else can be proven wrong and yet you still talk to God and God still talks to you and the miracles keep happening and the information keeps flowing and nothing can shake you.

Jacob 4
6 Wherefore, we search the prophets, and we have many revelations and the spirit of prophecy; and having all these witnesses we obtain a hope, and our faith becometh unshaken, insomuch that we truly can command in the name of Jesus and the very trees obey us, or the mountains, or the waves of the sea.

Read every scripture that uses has the word "rock" in it and you will see that the doctrines of Christ make up the gospel which is the rock on which we must build. If we build on any other foundation, we are building on sand from which we will fall, even if they are true principles.

True principles do not make up the doctrine of Christ. Christ's teachings do not make up his doctrine, (unless of course you are using the world's definition of doctrine and not Christ's.)

Christ spelled out his doctrine and said it was given to him from the Father and that this and only this is his doctrine. Nephi in 2 Nephi 31 and 32 also says that these are the only doctrines of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. The Lord himself repeats it in the D&C 10 saying that it is the "only doctrine that is in me".

D&C 10
62 Yea, and I will also bring to light my gospel which was ministered unto them, (The Nephites), and, behold, they shall not deny that which you have received, but they shall build it up, and shall bring to light the true points of my doctrine, yea, and the only doctrine which is in me.
63 And this I do that I may establish my gospel, that there may not be so much contention; yea, Satan doth stir up the hearts of the people to contention concerning the points of my doctrine; and in these things they do err, for they do wrest the scriptures and do not understand them.
64 Therefore, I will unfold unto them this great mystery;
65 For, behold, I will gather them as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, if they will not harden their hearts;
66 Yea, if they will come, they may, and partake of the waters of life freely.
67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.
68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.
69 And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

Christ taught his doctrine in great sermons. He taught his disciples doctrine. Every group he visited after his crucifixion were taught “His doctrine”, which is beautiful and wonderful. All Christ is outlining in 2 Nephi 31 and 3 Nephi 11 is the foundation. If you get that wrong, then not much else matters. That’s why He used the word “build.”

Yes, Christ always taught his doctrine, but he also taught other things that are not his definition of doctrine.

Is virtue a doctrine? Yes.

No. Virtue is a true principle and one might argue that it is essential to true repentance. But it is not a doctrine by the definition of doctrine used and taught by Christ who said he uses the definition and doctrines he received by the Father as witnessed by the Holy Ghost. Yes, be virtuous, but it is indirectly related to the doctrine of true repentance and is taught by the Holy Ghost, but it is not part of the gospel and doctrine of Christ. It is essential to becoming Celestial, and it will come as a result of following the Holy Ghost, but it is not required to receive the Holy Ghost, the Testimony of Christ, Accept the gospel and enter in at the gate. It can and will come later as a result of following the Holy Ghost. It is not the rock on which we build, or the doctrine of Christ.

Is the law of sacrifice a doctrine? Yes.

Only if you use the modern world's definition of doctrine. Not once, or twice, but several times the scriptures tell us the "only doctrines of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost". If they are the "only doctrines" and the scriptures are true, then perhaps God knows something about the definition of Doctrine that the world does not. Perhaps Satan also knows God's definition and blurs is to hid the truth making it harder to recognize and build on the rock.

Is consecration a doctrine? Yes.

Again, no. it isn't. You can build on consecration and still fall. You cannot build on the true doctrines of Christ and fall. The scriptures are so clear and I can't see how anyone could ignore or invalidate what is written so clearly. It seems to me that you would have to close your eyes and plug your ears and sing to yourself to be able to reject what is written. How would you write what I am saying so that someone couldn't conclude what you are concluding? What wording could God have used to say less than this or more than this isn't my doctrine in a way that you would say, "Ok, I understand what you are saying." I get if you are saying that you don't agree with the Lord's definition of doctrine or that you don't agree with what is written, but I think you are saying that isn't what it says or that isn't what he means.

Does the law of the gospel (I like to use the phrase “Pillar of Knowledge) include doctrine? Yes. It encompasses the entirety of the plan of salvation from Pre-mortal existence to our judgement, Christ being our advocate w/ the Father.

No, it doesn't, unless you are using the Church's definition of doctrine and the modern dictionary definition of doctrine which defines how the world uses the term doctrine. But God, Christ and the Holy Ghost do not use that definition for the word doctrine. Their definition of doctrine are a few simple points that are essential to receiving the Holy Ghost and following it. Nothing else is as important as these few simple points. 1+1=2 is not a doctrine of Christ. It's true, it's useful, it's praiseworthy, but it is not part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ or his doctrine. The church of math might make it one of their doctrines, but if we teach it is one of Christ's doctrines and build a church around the teaching that 1+1=2 is Christ's doctrine, he said it isn't his Church.

D&C 10
67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.
68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.

There are so many references to this that I couldn't possibly point to all of them. I can get that you might not understand the "secret sauce" that I just spelled out again, but even not understanding it, how do you discount and scriptures and ignore what they teach about his doctrine without placing the world's definition of Doctrine above God's definition of doctrine?

It just seems like to maintain your definition of the word "doctrine" you have to ignore statements like "the only doctrine of the Father, son and Holy Ghost", "the only doctrine which is in me", "establishing more or less than this as my doctrine comes of evil, opens the gates of hell and is not my church".

~Seeker

[Reluctant Watchman]

Your last paragraph just makes me roll my eyes. “You may not understand…., but I do.” I always find it interesting when people say that they know the “secret sauce”, yet they never actually share what that sauce is.

I shared the "secret sauce" in that post, two major points. You may not understand what I shared, but I do.

Study the definition of the word “doctrine.”

Are you using the definition of doctrine that the world uses or the one that Christ uses? From which source do you suggest that I study the definition of doctrine? The dictionary or the words of Christ and how he used the word? I'm pointing out that in his own words in 3 Nephi 11 he explained his doctrine, his entire doctrine and nothing but his doctrine. He began by saying "You have been disputing my doctrine which is not good. I'm going to tell you my doctrine so that I can settle the debate about what my doctrine is once and for all. Here is my doctrine..." Then he teaches his doctrine several times. After teaching his doctrine clearly several times so we don't miss it, he says, "That is my doctrine and anyone who declares more or less than this and tells you that it is my doctrine comes of evil and opens the gates of hell to receive you." In this entire exchange, he doesn't say, this is the beginning of my doctrine or this is part of my doctrine. He says this is it, my doctrine, indicating that he is giving us the entire thing. Then, when he finishes, he say that was it, my doctrine, indicating the entire thing. And his concluding remarks seal the deal. He says, it's ok to teach more or less than what I just taught, but teaching more or leas than what I just taught and telling people that it is my doctrine comes of evil and opens the gates of hell to receive them. That statement wraps a nice ribbon around it by defining that anything less than this is not his complete doctrine and anything more than this is beyond his doctrine. This is the definition of doctrine that Christ uses. Here it is in the scripture:

3 Nephi 11
31 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine.
32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.
33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.
34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.
35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.
36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.
37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things (the Holy Ghost and the witness of the Father and the Son).
38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.

You are literally saying that there are more "doctrines" that are Christ's doctrine. You are declaring more than this and establishing it for Christ's doctrine. He literally said that comes of evil and that by doing so you are not built on his rock and the gates of hell stand open to receive you.

I'll say it again, these special principles combined form the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and are unique from all other principles of truth BECAUSE they form the rock on which if you build you cannot fall. You can build on any other combinations of true principles and you will fall when the floods come and the winds beat upon you. It doesn't matter if your combination of true principles is less than what Christ taught here, or more than what Christ taught here or different than what Christ taught here. Any other combination of true principles do not make up the rock, the gospel of Jesus Christ or represent his doctrines in their completeness. If you build on any other foundation, you will fall and therefore cannot qualify for the promise of eternal life which we call making your calling and election sure. If your foundation consists of less doctrines than he just taught, or more doctrines than he just taught, or different doctrines than he just taught, then you cannot qualify for the promise of eternal life because you are built on a sandy foundation from which you are promised that you will fall. God cannot give the promise of eternal life unless He knows that you will not fall and the way He knows whether or not you will fall is by looking at the foundation you are built on. Are you built on this rock or are you built on sand. This is the only rock or sure foundation. Every other combination of true principles is sand.

Why? Because this foundation ensures that you are in direct communication with God through the Holy Ghost. Via that correct communication with God, He personally can instruct and guide you and clear away the sand and teach you the truths of heaven. Adding to this list of doctrines and making them part of your foundation means that God cannot correct you on those points. For example, if following prophets and apostles is part of your foundation on which you are built, then if you learn that your prophets and apostles are false, then you have lost your anchor or foundation and you are tossed into chaos uncertain of what is true and what is not true. If tithing is part of your foundation and you later realize that paying tithing results in some evil or wrong, out goes your foundations and you are tossed around in the whirlwind. Let's say that you do what the church teaches you to do and you make the Book of Mormon your foundation. What happens when you come across the anachronisms or realize that it has been changed thousands of times or that Joseph didn't actually translate it the way you were taught or that computer analysis finds identical stories, names and places in other books Joseph had access to as a child, or that in Emma Smith's journal she tells us that long before Joseph received the book of Mormon he was telling stories about Nephites who lived in America and she records a dream Joseph Smith Sr. had before Joseph received the book of Mormon and that dream identically mirrors Lehi's dream of the tree of life except that the iron rod was a rope, etc.? What happens if you build your foundation on the Book of Mormon and find out about the Kinderhook plates where Joseph Smith was tricked by locals who faked some plates and asked him to translate them and Joseph said they were an ancient record and translated them before they told Joseph that they forged them to see if he was really able to translate and he was caught in a lie. Or the Book of Abraham which we now can translate and it has nothing to do with what Joseph said the translation is? Your foundation is a weak foundation and you will fall.

There is only one foundation from which you cannot fall and that foundation is personal experience with God which comes by receiving and following the Holy Ghost. When we receive and follow the Holy Ghost, we gain personal experience and witness miracles and gain information that is far beyond the intelligence of men. It doesn't matter what anyone throws at you. It doesn't matter if in your eyes Joseph Smith falls and the Book of Mormon is proved false and the President of the church is caught in some great conspiracy, etc. Nothing can knock you off your foundation because it doesn't matter. You know God for yourself from your own experience. You become your own sure witness and everything else can be proven wrong and yet you still talk to God and God still talks to you and the miracles keep happening and the information keeps flowing and nothing can shake you.

Jacob 4
6 Wherefore, we search the prophets, and we have many revelations and the spirit of prophecy; and having all these witnesses we obtain a hope, and our faith becometh unshaken, insomuch that we truly can command in the name of Jesus and the very trees obey us, or the mountains, or the waves of the sea.

Read every scripture that uses has the word "rock" in it and you will see that the doctrines of Christ make up the gospel which is the rock on which we must build. If we build on any other foundation, we are building on sand from which we will fall, even if they are true principles.

True principles do not make up the doctrine of Christ. Christ's teachings do not make up his doctrine, (unless of course you are using the world's definition of doctrine and not Christ's.)

Christ spelled out his doctrine and said it was given to him from the Father and that this and only this is his doctrine. Nephi in 2 Nephi 31 and 32 also says that these are the only doctrines of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. The Lord himself repeats it in the D&C 10 saying that it is the "only doctrine that is in me".

D&C 10
62 Yea, and I will also bring to light my gospel which was ministered unto them, (The Nephites), and, behold, they shall not deny that which you have received, but they shall build it up, and shall bring to light the true points of my doctrine, yea, and the only doctrine which is in me.
63 And this I do that I may establish my gospel, that there may not be so much contention; yea, Satan doth stir up the hearts of the people to contention concerning the points of my doctrine; and in these things they do err, for they do wrest the scriptures and do not understand them.
64 Therefore, I will unfold unto them this great mystery;
65 For, behold, I will gather them as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, if they will not harden their hearts;
66 Yea, if they will come, they may, and partake of the waters of life freely.
67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.
68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.
69 And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

Christ taught his doctrine in great sermons. He taught his disciples doctrine. Every group he visited after his crucifixion were taught “His doctrine”, which is beautiful and wonderful. All Christ is outlining in 2 Nephi 31 and 3 Nephi 11 is the foundation. If you get that wrong, then not much else matters. That’s why He used the word “build.”

Yes, Christ always taught his doctrine, but he also taught other things that are not his definition of doctrine.

Is virtue a doctrine? Yes.

No. Virtue is a true principle and one might argue that it is essential to true repentance. But it is not a doctrine by the definition of doctrine used and taught by Christ who said he uses the definition and doctrines he received by the Father as witnessed by the Holy Ghost. Yes, be virtuous, but it is indirectly related to the doctrine of true repentance and is taught by the Holy Ghost, but it is not part of the gospel and doctrine of Christ. It is essential to becoming Celestial, and it will come as a result of following the Holy Ghost, but it is not required to receive the Holy Ghost, the Testimony of Christ, Accept the gospel and enter in at the gate. It can and will come later as a result of following the Holy Ghost. It is not the rock on which we build, or the doctrine of Christ.

Is the law of sacrifice a doctrine? Yes.

Only if you use the modern world's definition of doctrine. Not once, or twice, but several times the scriptures tell us the "only doctrines of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost". If they are the "only doctrines" and the scriptures are true, then perhaps God knows something about the definition of Doctrine that the world does not. Perhaps Satan also knows God's definition and blurs is to hid the truth making it harder to recognize and build on the rock.

Is consecration a doctrine? Yes.

Again, no. it isn't. You can build on consecration and still fall. You cannot build on the true doctrines of Christ and fall. The scriptures are so clear and I can't see how anyone could ignore or invalidate what is written so clearly. It seems to me that you would have to close your eyes and plug your ears and sing to yourself to be able to reject what is written. How would you write what I am saying so that someone couldn't conclude what you are concluding? What wording could God have used to say less than this or more than this isn't my doctrine in a way that you would say, "Ok, I understand what you are saying." I get if you are saying that you don't agree with the Lord's definition of doctrine or that you don't agree with what is written, but I think you are saying that isn't what it says or that isn't what he means.

Does the law of the gospel (I like to use the phrase “Pillar of Knowledge) include doctrine? Yes. It encompasses the entirety of the plan of salvation from Pre-mortal existence to our judgement, Christ being our advocate w/ the Father.

No, it doesn't, unless you are using the Church's definition of doctrine and the modern dictionary definition of doctrine which defines how the world uses the term doctrine. But God, Christ and the Holy Ghost do not use that definition for the word doctrine. Their definition of doctrine are a few simple points that are essential to receiving the Holy Ghost and following it. Nothing else is as important as these few simple points. 1+1=2 is not a doctrine of Christ. It's true, it's useful, it's praiseworthy, but it is not part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ or his doctrine. The church of math might make it one of their doctrines, but if we teach it is one of Christ's doctrines and build a church around the teaching that 1+1=2 is Christ's doctrine, he said it isn't his Church.

D&C 10
67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.
68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.

There are so many references to this that I couldn't possibly point to all of them. I can get that you might not understand the "secret sauce" that I just spelled out again, but even not understanding it, how do you discount and scriptures and ignore what they teach about his doctrine without placing the world's definition of Doctrine above God's definition of doctrine?

It just seems like to maintain your definition of the word "doctrine" you have to ignore statements like "the only doctrine of the Father, son and Holy Ghost", "the only doctrine which is in me", "establishing more or less than this as my doctrine comes of evil, opens the gates of hell and is not my church".

~Seeker

I guess we'll just keep our own perspectives on this. It is clear to me what Christ was getting at. He was pointing specifically to the foundation upon which we are to build. Declaring that salvation comes through any other means is what he was talking about. HE is the foundation that we build upon, the rock. But to say that there is no more doctrine is misguided. But that's just me. I have read tremendous sermons given by Christ that contain beautiful doctrine. I have read many sermons given by inspired people that also contain His doctrine.

[Seeker144k]

I guess we'll just keep our own perspectives on this. It is clear to me what Christ was getting at. He was pointing specifically to the foundation upon which we are to build. Declaring that salvation comes through any other means is what he was talking about. HE is the foundation that we build upon, the rock. But to say that there is no more doctrine is misguided. But that's just me. I have read tremendous sermons given by Christ that contain beautiful doctrine. I have read many sermons given by inspired people that also contain His doctrine.

I'm cool with that. But, I highly recommend that you read this post I just made that uses the restoration timeline/scriptures to show that the Lord said repeatedly that the fulness of the Gospel was restored in 1830, before the word of wisdom, tithing, Endowments, sealings, etc.

The Restoration is a process...

~Seeker