Women and Polygamy

A place for conservative women to discuss true women's liberation, the role of women in healing America, the truth about feminism and more...
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Alexander
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Re: Women and Polygamy

Post by Alexander »

innocentoldguy wrote: November 7th, 2022, 10:46 pm
Alexander wrote: November 7th, 2022, 9:35 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 7th, 2022, 7:48 pm
Alexander wrote: November 7th, 2022, 7:41 pm
LMAO
So, what you're saying here is that you have no refutation to offer, right?
"Where's the citation for your assertion Mansley?!"
Image
Probably in that link I gave you that you had to step over to respond twice, and the three volumes related to it.
Lmao dude I’ve already read those books.

logonbump
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Posts: 789

Re: Women and Polygamy

Post by logonbump »

Whatever Joseph was deceived into teaching the brethren, it remained a curse to the latter day saints. At the end of his life he did confess and forsake his sin and died an innocent man. For his testimony of truth and righteousness.

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Luke
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Posts: 10785
Location: England

Re: Women and Polygamy

Post by Luke »

innocentoldguy wrote: November 7th, 2022, 4:48 pm
Luke wrote: November 7th, 2022, 4:34 pm
gruden2.0 wrote: November 6th, 2022, 8:24 pm
Luke wrote: November 6th, 2022, 6:32 pm

I don’t believe that, but I didn’t discount that as one of the options. It comes under the third option I gave.

It seems that you may not be aware that this belief has become quite popular in Mormon circles as of late. (I do believe it is a false, damnable belief.)
No, it's not option #3. It was pointed out to me that there is very credible evidence Joseph was a polygamist. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean what Brigham and anyone else does was in any way justified. They were not, and it gave rise to the corruption of the church (and it seems Joseph may have feared this would be the case).

I realize that is something many may have a hard time wrapping their mind around, so I'll just leave it there. Nevertheless, if any here hang around in mortality long enough, how one handles this issue may play a substantial role in how things turn out for them given the times we are entering. If one chooses to be dogmatic about this issue - either way - it will be a great limiter.
Ok, I understand you more. I apologise if I misrepresented you.

I don’t think that Brigham was on the same level as Joseph but I don’t think that he was “wrong”. What differences existed between Joseph and Brigham’s practise of polygamy?
There was no difference whatsoever. Joseph was commanded to engage in plural marriage by revelation as one holding the priesthood keys to receive such direction for the entire church. After he was martyred, Brigham Young held those same keys and continued the practice that Joseph first revealed.

I think you may benefit from this speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSEsLtwKzvw
I agree that there was no difference between JS and BY’s polygamy. I’m sure you know from my posts that I’m a great believer in the Principle. But obviously this guy believes otherwise, so I’m trying to figure out why. Thanks for the link though.

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Alexander
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Re: Women and Polygamy

Post by Alexander »

innocentoldguy wrote: November 7th, 2022, 11:37 pm
Alexander wrote: November 7th, 2022, 11:32 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 7th, 2022, 10:46 pm
Alexander wrote: November 7th, 2022, 9:35 pm

"Where's the citation for your assertion Mansley?!"
Image
Probably in that link I gave you that you had to step over to respond twice, and the three volumes related to it.
Lmao dude I’ve already read those books.
You may wish to work on your reading comprehension then.
Your old prat thinks Lucy Mack Smith said Joseph and Hyrum were polygamous and can’t cite it.

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ithink
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Re: Women and Polygamy

Post by ithink »

Luke wrote: August 1st, 2022, 10:29 am Voices in Harmony is a good book. Testimonies from plural wives about the Principle.

Everyone here has different opinions on Joseph Smith and polygamy. The main three lines are:

1. He was a polygamist and this was right (I believe this)
2. He was a polygamist and this was wrong
3. He was not a polygamist
No need for debate. Joseph tells us himself. "I have been deceived".
Hiding in the annals of LDS Church history is a small but very important
confession from Joseph Smith. The following admission was related by William
Marks, Nauvoo Stake President from 1839 until just after Joseph's martyrdom.
President Marks stated the following:
“About the first of June, 1844 (situated as I was at that time, being the
Presiding Elder of the Stake at Nauvoo, and by appointment the
Presiding Officer of the High Council), I had a very good opportunity
to know the affairs of the Church, and my convictions at that time
were, that the Church in a great measure had departed from the pure
principles and doctrines of Jesus Christ. I felt much troubled in mind
about the condition of the Church. I prayed earnestly to my Heavenly
Father to show me something in regard to it, when I was wrapt in
vision, and it was shown me by the Spirit, that the top or branches had
overcome the root, in sin and wickedness, and the only way to cleanse
and purify it was, to disorganize it, and in due time, the Lord would
reorganize it again. There were many things suggested to my mind,
but the lapse of time has erased them from my memory. A few days
after this occurrence I met with Brother Joseph. He said that he
wanted to converse with me on the affairs of the church, and we
retired by ourselves. I will give his words verbatim, for they are
indelibly stamped upon my mind. He said he had desired for a long
time to have a talk with me on the subject of polygamy. He said it
eventually would prove the overthrow of the church, and we should
soon be obliged to leave the United States, unless it could be speedily
put down. He was satisfied that it was a cursed doctrine, and that
there must be every exertion made to put it down. He said that he
would go before the congregation and proclaim against it, and I must
go into the High Council, and he would prefer charges against those in
transgression, and I must sever them from the church, unless they
made ample satisfaction. There was much more said, but this was the
substance. The mob commenced to gather about Carthage in a few
days after, therefore there was nothing done concerning it. After the
Prophet’s death, I made mention of this conversation to several,
hoping and believing that it would have a good effect; but to my great
disappointment, it was soon rumored about that Brother Marks was
about to apostatize, and that all that he said about the conversation
with the Prophet was a tissue of lies.”493
“During my administration in the Church [at Nauvoo] I saw and
heard of many things that were practiced and taught that I did not
believe to be of God…. Therefore when the doctrine of polygamy was
introduced into the Church as a principle of exaltation, I took a
decided stand against it; which stand rendered me quite unpopular
with many of the leading ones of the church. I was also witness of the
introduction (secretly) of a kingly form of government, in which
Joseph suffered himself to be ordained a king, to reign over the house
of Israel forever…. Joseph, however, became convinced before his
death that he had done wrong; for about three weeks before his death,
I met him one morning in the street, and he said to me, ‘Brother
Marks, I have something to communicate to you.’ We retired to a by
place, and sat down together, when he said: ‘We are a ruined people.’ I
asked how so? He said: ‘This doctrine of polygamy, or spiritual wife
system, that has been taught and practiced among us, will prove our
destruction and overthrow. I have been deceived,' said he, 'in reference
to its practice; it is wrong; it is a curse to mankind, and we shall have
to leave the United States soon, unless it can be put down, and its
practice stopped in the Church.’ ”494 (A Burnt Child)

William Marks, Zion's Harbinger and Baneemy's Organ, Vol. 3:52-53, July 1853
.

Following that came the order to "burn it".

It?

Following that came the order to "discard and destroy" it.

It?

Following that, well, it doesn't get any better, it only gets worse.

It? It?

Shhhhhhh!......it! They don't want people talking about it.

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Luke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10785
Location: England

Re: Women and Polygamy

Post by Luke »

ithink wrote: November 8th, 2022, 6:55 am
Luke wrote: August 1st, 2022, 10:29 am Voices in Harmony is a good book. Testimonies from plural wives about the Principle.

Everyone here has different opinions on Joseph Smith and polygamy. The main three lines are:

1. He was a polygamist and this was right (I believe this)
2. He was a polygamist and this was wrong
3. He was not a polygamist
No need for debate. Joseph tells us himself. "I have been deceived".
Hiding in the annals of LDS Church history is a small but very important
confession from Joseph Smith. The following admission was related by William
Marks, Nauvoo Stake President from 1839 until just after Joseph's martyrdom.
President Marks stated the following:
“About the first of June, 1844 (situated as I was at that time, being the
Presiding Elder of the Stake at Nauvoo, and by appointment the
Presiding Officer of the High Council), I had a very good opportunity
to know the affairs of the Church, and my convictions at that time
were, that the Church in a great measure had departed from the pure
principles and doctrines of Jesus Christ. I felt much troubled in mind
about the condition of the Church. I prayed earnestly to my Heavenly
Father to show me something in regard to it, when I was wrapt in
vision, and it was shown me by the Spirit, that the top or branches had
overcome the root, in sin and wickedness, and the only way to cleanse
and purify it was, to disorganize it, and in due time, the Lord would
reorganize it again. There were many things suggested to my mind,
but the lapse of time has erased them from my memory. A few days
after this occurrence I met with Brother Joseph. He said that he
wanted to converse with me on the affairs of the church, and we
retired by ourselves. I will give his words verbatim, for they are
indelibly stamped upon my mind. He said he had desired for a long
time to have a talk with me on the subject of polygamy. He said it
eventually would prove the overthrow of the church, and we should
soon be obliged to leave the United States, unless it could be speedily
put down. He was satisfied that it was a cursed doctrine, and that
there must be every exertion made to put it down. He said that he
would go before the congregation and proclaim against it, and I must
go into the High Council, and he would prefer charges against those in
transgression, and I must sever them from the church, unless they
made ample satisfaction. There was much more said, but this was the
substance. The mob commenced to gather about Carthage in a few
days after, therefore there was nothing done concerning it. After the
Prophet’s death, I made mention of this conversation to several,
hoping and believing that it would have a good effect; but to my great
disappointment, it was soon rumored about that Brother Marks was
about to apostatize, and that all that he said about the conversation
with the Prophet was a tissue of lies.”493
“During my administration in the Church [at Nauvoo] I saw and
heard of many things that were practiced and taught that I did not
believe to be of God…. Therefore when the doctrine of polygamy was
introduced into the Church as a principle of exaltation, I took a
decided stand against it; which stand rendered me quite unpopular
with many of the leading ones of the church. I was also witness of the
introduction (secretly) of a kingly form of government, in which
Joseph suffered himself to be ordained a king, to reign over the house
of Israel forever…. Joseph, however, became convinced before his
death that he had done wrong; for about three weeks before his death,
I met him one morning in the street, and he said to me, ‘Brother
Marks, I have something to communicate to you.’ We retired to a by
place, and sat down together, when he said: ‘We are a ruined people.’ I
asked how so? He said: ‘This doctrine of polygamy, or spiritual wife
system, that has been taught and practiced among us, will prove our
destruction and overthrow. I have been deceived,' said he, 'in reference
to its practice; it is wrong; it is a curse to mankind, and we shall have
to leave the United States soon, unless it can be put down, and its
practice stopped in the Church.’ ”494 (A Burnt Child)

William Marks, Zion's Harbinger and Baneemy's Organ, Vol. 3:52-53, July 1853
.

Following that came the order to "burn it".

It?

Following that came the order to "discard and destroy" it.

It?

Following that, well, it doesn't get any better, it only gets worse.

It? It?

Shhhhhhh!......it! They don't want people talking about it.
According to William Marks, he said that. But I don’t believe he did.

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ithink
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Posts: 3206
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Women and Polygamy

Post by ithink »

Luke wrote: November 8th, 2022, 7:21 am
ithink wrote: November 8th, 2022, 6:55 am
Luke wrote: August 1st, 2022, 10:29 am Voices in Harmony is a good book. Testimonies from plural wives about the Principle.

Everyone here has different opinions on Joseph Smith and polygamy. The main three lines are:

1. He was a polygamist and this was right (I believe this)
2. He was a polygamist and this was wrong
3. He was not a polygamist
No need for debate. Joseph tells us himself. "I have been deceived".
Hiding in the annals of LDS Church history is a small but very important
confession from Joseph Smith. The following admission was related by William
Marks, Nauvoo Stake President from 1839 until just after Joseph's martyrdom.
President Marks stated the following:
“About the first of June, 1844 (situated as I was at that time, being the
Presiding Elder of the Stake at Nauvoo, and by appointment the
Presiding Officer of the High Council), I had a very good opportunity
to know the affairs of the Church, and my convictions at that time
were, that the Church in a great measure had departed from the pure
principles and doctrines of Jesus Christ. I felt much troubled in mind
about the condition of the Church. I prayed earnestly to my Heavenly
Father to show me something in regard to it, when I was wrapt in
vision, and it was shown me by the Spirit, that the top or branches had
overcome the root, in sin and wickedness, and the only way to cleanse
and purify it was, to disorganize it, and in due time, the Lord would
reorganize it again. There were many things suggested to my mind,
but the lapse of time has erased them from my memory. A few days
after this occurrence I met with Brother Joseph. He said that he
wanted to converse with me on the affairs of the church, and we
retired by ourselves. I will give his words verbatim, for they are
indelibly stamped upon my mind. He said he had desired for a long
time to have a talk with me on the subject of polygamy. He said it
eventually would prove the overthrow of the church, and we should
soon be obliged to leave the United States, unless it could be speedily
put down. He was satisfied that it was a cursed doctrine, and that
there must be every exertion made to put it down. He said that he
would go before the congregation and proclaim against it, and I must
go into the High Council, and he would prefer charges against those in
transgression, and I must sever them from the church, unless they
made ample satisfaction. There was much more said, but this was the
substance. The mob commenced to gather about Carthage in a few
days after, therefore there was nothing done concerning it. After the
Prophet’s death, I made mention of this conversation to several,
hoping and believing that it would have a good effect; but to my great
disappointment, it was soon rumored about that Brother Marks was
about to apostatize, and that all that he said about the conversation
with the Prophet was a tissue of lies.”493
“During my administration in the Church [at Nauvoo] I saw and
heard of many things that were practiced and taught that I did not
believe to be of God…. Therefore when the doctrine of polygamy was
introduced into the Church as a principle of exaltation, I took a
decided stand against it; which stand rendered me quite unpopular
with many of the leading ones of the church. I was also witness of the
introduction (secretly) of a kingly form of government, in which
Joseph suffered himself to be ordained a king, to reign over the house
of Israel forever…. Joseph, however, became convinced before his
death that he had done wrong; for about three weeks before his death,
I met him one morning in the street, and he said to me, ‘Brother
Marks, I have something to communicate to you.’ We retired to a by
place, and sat down together, when he said: ‘We are a ruined people.’ I
asked how so? He said: ‘This doctrine of polygamy, or spiritual wife
system, that has been taught and practiced among us, will prove our
destruction and overthrow. I have been deceived,' said he, 'in reference
to its practice; it is wrong; it is a curse to mankind, and we shall have
to leave the United States soon, unless it can be put down, and its
practice stopped in the Church.’ ”494 (A Burnt Child)

William Marks, Zion's Harbinger and Baneemy's Organ, Vol. 3:52-53, July 1853
.

Following that came the order to "burn it".

It?

Following that came the order to "discard and destroy" it.

It?

Following that, well, it doesn't get any better, it only gets worse.

It? It?

Shhhhhhh!......it! They don't want people talking about it.
According to William Marks, he said that. But I don’t believe he did.
Your call.

But from someone who has paid an unsolicited visit to the next world(s), I'd humbly suggest you rethink your position.

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cab
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2986
Location: ♫ I am a Mormon! ♫ And... dang it... a Mormon just believes! ♫

Re: Women and Polygamy

Post by cab »

ithink wrote: November 8th, 2022, 9:29 am
Luke wrote: November 8th, 2022, 7:21 am
ithink wrote: November 8th, 2022, 6:55 am
Luke wrote: August 1st, 2022, 10:29 am Voices in Harmony is a good book. Testimonies from plural wives about the Principle.

Everyone here has different opinions on Joseph Smith and polygamy. The main three lines are:

1. He was a polygamist and this was right (I believe this)
2. He was a polygamist and this was wrong
3. He was not a polygamist
No need for debate. Joseph tells us himself. "I have been deceived".
Hiding in the annals of LDS Church history is a small but very important
confession from Joseph Smith. The following admission was related by William
Marks, Nauvoo Stake President from 1839 until just after Joseph's martyrdom.
President Marks stated the following:
“About the first of June, 1844 (situated as I was at that time, being the
Presiding Elder of the Stake at Nauvoo, and by appointment the
Presiding Officer of the High Council), I had a very good opportunity
to know the affairs of the Church, and my convictions at that time
were, that the Church in a great measure had departed from the pure
principles and doctrines of Jesus Christ. I felt much troubled in mind
about the condition of the Church. I prayed earnestly to my Heavenly
Father to show me something in regard to it, when I was wrapt in
vision, and it was shown me by the Spirit, that the top or branches had
overcome the root, in sin and wickedness, and the only way to cleanse
and purify it was, to disorganize it, and in due time, the Lord would
reorganize it again. There were many things suggested to my mind,
but the lapse of time has erased them from my memory. A few days
after this occurrence I met with Brother Joseph. He said that he
wanted to converse with me on the affairs of the church, and we
retired by ourselves. I will give his words verbatim, for they are
indelibly stamped upon my mind. He said he had desired for a long
time to have a talk with me on the subject of polygamy. He said it
eventually would prove the overthrow of the church, and we should
soon be obliged to leave the United States, unless it could be speedily
put down. He was satisfied that it was a cursed doctrine, and that
there must be every exertion made to put it down. He said that he
would go before the congregation and proclaim against it, and I must
go into the High Council, and he would prefer charges against those in
transgression, and I must sever them from the church, unless they
made ample satisfaction. There was much more said, but this was the
substance. The mob commenced to gather about Carthage in a few
days after, therefore there was nothing done concerning it. After the
Prophet’s death, I made mention of this conversation to several,
hoping and believing that it would have a good effect; but to my great
disappointment, it was soon rumored about that Brother Marks was
about to apostatize, and that all that he said about the conversation
with the Prophet was a tissue of lies.”493
“During my administration in the Church [at Nauvoo] I saw and
heard of many things that were practiced and taught that I did not
believe to be of God…. Therefore when the doctrine of polygamy was
introduced into the Church as a principle of exaltation, I took a
decided stand against it; which stand rendered me quite unpopular
with many of the leading ones of the church. I was also witness of the
introduction (secretly) of a kingly form of government, in which
Joseph suffered himself to be ordained a king, to reign over the house
of Israel forever…. Joseph, however, became convinced before his
death that he had done wrong; for about three weeks before his death,
I met him one morning in the street, and he said to me, ‘Brother
Marks, I have something to communicate to you.’ We retired to a by
place, and sat down together, when he said: ‘We are a ruined people.’ I
asked how so? He said: ‘This doctrine of polygamy, or spiritual wife
system, that has been taught and practiced among us, will prove our
destruction and overthrow. I have been deceived,' said he, 'in reference
to its practice; it is wrong; it is a curse to mankind, and we shall have
to leave the United States soon, unless it can be put down, and its
practice stopped in the Church.’ ”494 (A Burnt Child)

William Marks, Zion's Harbinger and Baneemy's Organ, Vol. 3:52-53, July 1853
.

Following that came the order to "burn it".

It?

Following that came the order to "discard and destroy" it.

It?

Following that, well, it doesn't get any better, it only gets worse.

It? It?

Shhhhhhh!......it! They don't want people talking about it.
According to William Marks, he said that. But I don’t believe he did.
Your call.

But from someone who has paid an unsolicited visit to the next world(s), I'd humbly suggest you rethink your position.

I’d love to hear more about the experience you are speaking of

innocentoldguy
captain of 100
Posts: 265

Re: Women and Polygamy

Post by innocentoldguy »

Alexander wrote: November 8th, 2022, 6:33 am
innocentoldguy wrote: November 7th, 2022, 11:37 pm
Alexander wrote: November 7th, 2022, 11:32 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 7th, 2022, 10:46 pm

Probably in that link I gave you that you had to step over to respond twice, and the three volumes related to it.
Lmao dude I’ve already read those books.
You may wish to work on your reading comprehension then.
Your old prat thinks Lucy Mack Smith said Joseph and Hyrum were polygamous and can’t cite it.
<sigh> Friends' Weekly Intelligencer, September 19, 1846 & October 3, 1846. During the interview, she admits that Joseph practiced polygamy and that it continued to evolve after he died. Just like the temple endowment, he got it started but didn't have a chance to perfect it.

innocentoldguy
captain of 100
Posts: 265

Re: Women and Polygamy

Post by innocentoldguy »

Luke wrote: November 8th, 2022, 7:21 am
ithink wrote: November 8th, 2022, 6:55 am
Luke wrote: August 1st, 2022, 10:29 am Voices in Harmony is a good book. Testimonies from plural wives about the Principle.

Everyone here has different opinions on Joseph Smith and polygamy. The main three lines are:

1. He was a polygamist and this was right (I believe this)
2. He was a polygamist and this was wrong
3. He was not a polygamist
No need for debate. Joseph tells us himself. "I have been deceived".
Hiding in the annals of LDS Church history is a small but very important
confession from Joseph Smith. The following admission was related by William
Marks, Nauvoo Stake President from 1839 until just after Joseph's martyrdom.
President Marks stated the following:
“About the first of June, 1844 (situated as I was at that time, being the
Presiding Elder of the Stake at Nauvoo, and by appointment the
Presiding Officer of the High Council), I had a very good opportunity
to know the affairs of the Church, and my convictions at that time
were, that the Church in a great measure had departed from the pure
principles and doctrines of Jesus Christ. I felt much troubled in mind
about the condition of the Church. I prayed earnestly to my Heavenly
Father to show me something in regard to it, when I was wrapt in
vision, and it was shown me by the Spirit, that the top or branches had
overcome the root, in sin and wickedness, and the only way to cleanse
and purify it was, to disorganize it, and in due time, the Lord would
reorganize it again. There were many things suggested to my mind,
but the lapse of time has erased them from my memory. A few days
after this occurrence I met with Brother Joseph. He said that he
wanted to converse with me on the affairs of the church, and we
retired by ourselves. I will give his words verbatim, for they are
indelibly stamped upon my mind. He said he had desired for a long
time to have a talk with me on the subject of polygamy. He said it
eventually would prove the overthrow of the church, and we should
soon be obliged to leave the United States, unless it could be speedily
put down. He was satisfied that it was a cursed doctrine, and that
there must be every exertion made to put it down. He said that he
would go before the congregation and proclaim against it, and I must
go into the High Council, and he would prefer charges against those in
transgression, and I must sever them from the church, unless they
made ample satisfaction. There was much more said, but this was the
substance. The mob commenced to gather about Carthage in a few
days after, therefore there was nothing done concerning it. After the
Prophet’s death, I made mention of this conversation to several,
hoping and believing that it would have a good effect; but to my great
disappointment, it was soon rumored about that Brother Marks was
about to apostatize, and that all that he said about the conversation
with the Prophet was a tissue of lies.”493
“During my administration in the Church [at Nauvoo] I saw and
heard of many things that were practiced and taught that I did not
believe to be of God…. Therefore when the doctrine of polygamy was
introduced into the Church as a principle of exaltation, I took a
decided stand against it; which stand rendered me quite unpopular
with many of the leading ones of the church. I was also witness of the
introduction (secretly) of a kingly form of government, in which
Joseph suffered himself to be ordained a king, to reign over the house
of Israel forever…. Joseph, however, became convinced before his
death that he had done wrong; for about three weeks before his death,
I met him one morning in the street, and he said to me, ‘Brother
Marks, I have something to communicate to you.’ We retired to a by
place, and sat down together, when he said: ‘We are a ruined people.’ I
asked how so? He said: ‘This doctrine of polygamy, or spiritual wife
system, that has been taught and practiced among us, will prove our
destruction and overthrow. I have been deceived,' said he, 'in reference
to its practice; it is wrong; it is a curse to mankind, and we shall have
to leave the United States soon, unless it can be put down, and its
practice stopped in the Church.’ ”494 (A Burnt Child)

William Marks, Zion's Harbinger and Baneemy's Organ, Vol. 3:52-53, July 1853
.

Following that came the order to "burn it".

It?

Following that came the order to "discard and destroy" it.

It?

Following that, well, it doesn't get any better, it only gets worse.

It? It?

Shhhhhhh!......it! They don't want people talking about it.
According to William Marks, he said that. But I don’t believe he did.
William Marks left the church and ended up in the RLDS church, which is where this quote comes from. They disavowed polygamy and spent years trying to pretend Joseph Smith didn't practice it.

User avatar
Alexander
the Great
Posts: 4590
Location: amongst the brotherhood of the Black Robed Regiment; cocked hat and cocked rifle

Re: Women and Polygamy

Post by Alexander »

innocentoldguy wrote: November 8th, 2022, 11:53 am
Alexander wrote: November 8th, 2022, 6:33 am
innocentoldguy wrote: November 7th, 2022, 11:37 pm
Alexander wrote: November 7th, 2022, 11:32 pm

Lmao dude I’ve already read those books.
You may wish to work on your reading comprehension then.
Your old prat thinks Lucy Mack Smith said Joseph and Hyrum were polygamous and can’t cite it.
<sigh> Friends' Weekly Intelligencer, September 19, 1846 & October 3, 1846. During the interview, she admits that Joseph practiced polygamy and that it continued to evolve after he died. Just like the temple endowment, he got it started but didn't have a chance to perfect it.
Had a hunch this would be what you pull up.

No she didn’t. Nowhere in that article does “she admit that Joseph practiced polygamy”. You’re lying *again*.

innocentoldguy
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Re: Women and Polygamy

Post by innocentoldguy »

Alexander wrote: November 8th, 2022, 12:27 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 8th, 2022, 11:53 am
Alexander wrote: November 8th, 2022, 6:33 am
innocentoldguy wrote: November 7th, 2022, 11:37 pm

You may wish to work on your reading comprehension then.
Your old prat thinks Lucy Mack Smith said Joseph and Hyrum were polygamous and can’t cite it.
<sigh> Friends' Weekly Intelligencer, September 19, 1846 & October 3, 1846. During the interview, she admits that Joseph practiced polygamy and that it continued to evolve after he died. Just like the temple endowment, he got it started but didn't have a chance to perfect it.
Had a hunch this would be what you pull up.

No she didn’t. Nowhere in that article does “she admit that Joseph practiced polygamy”. You’re lying *again*.
Sure it does. If it wasn't "perfected until after Joseph's death," then who instituted it while he was still alive. Was he the prophet and leader of the church or not?

Of course, you're also ignoring the myriad other accounts that Joseph Smith did indeed engage in polygamy, so I'm not surprised you'd be dismissive of this one too. You're welcome to be as wrong as you want to be though.

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Re: Women and Polygamy

Post by Alexander »

innocentoldguy wrote: November 8th, 2022, 12:32 pm
Alexander wrote: November 8th, 2022, 12:27 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 8th, 2022, 11:53 am
Alexander wrote: November 8th, 2022, 6:33 am

Your old prat thinks Lucy Mack Smith said Joseph and Hyrum were polygamous and can’t cite it.
<sigh> Friends' Weekly Intelligencer, September 19, 1846 & October 3, 1846. During the interview, she admits that Joseph practiced polygamy and that it continued to evolve after he died. Just like the temple endowment, he got it started but didn't have a chance to perfect it.
Had a hunch this would be what you pull up.

No she didn’t. Nowhere in that article does “she admit that Joseph practiced polygamy”. You’re lying *again*.
Sure it does. If it wasn't "perfected until after Joseph's death," then who instituted it while he was still alive. Was he the prophet and leader of the church or not?

Of course, you're also ignoring the myriad other accounts that Joseph Smith did indeed engage in polygamy, so I'm not surprised you'd be dismissive of this one too. You're welcome to be as wrong as you want to be though.
No it doesn't.
Image

"She said this system ["Spiritual Wife System"] was not perfectly developed until after Joseph's death, and that she did not think that he would have approved of it had he lived longer; and that previously to their starting for the West, many poor, deluded females were shut up in the Temple with these "Saintly" deceivers, under the name of performing various religious ceremonies, but which, it is believed, ended in most gross immoralities. She mentioned many families that had been entirely broken up, and made desolate, --- wives leaving in some cases their husbands and children, --- husbands bringing other women inter families, forming a complete harem, --- and young girls sacrificing themselves, in the belief that it insured their salvation to become the handmaids of the "Saints". The picture which was drawn was a sad one, and she seemed to feel it deeply. "

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Re: Women and Polygamy

Post by innocentoldguy »

Alexander wrote: November 8th, 2022, 4:12 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 8th, 2022, 12:32 pm
Alexander wrote: November 8th, 2022, 12:27 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 8th, 2022, 11:53 am

<sigh> Friends' Weekly Intelligencer, September 19, 1846 & October 3, 1846. During the interview, she admits that Joseph practiced polygamy and that it continued to evolve after he died. Just like the temple endowment, he got it started but didn't have a chance to perfect it.
Had a hunch this would be what you pull up.

No she didn’t. Nowhere in that article does “she admit that Joseph practiced polygamy”. You’re lying *again*.
Sure it does. If it wasn't "perfected until after Joseph's death," then who instituted it while he was still alive. Was he the prophet and leader of the church or not?

Of course, you're also ignoring the myriad other accounts that Joseph Smith did indeed engage in polygamy, so I'm not surprised you'd be dismissive of this one too. You're welcome to be as wrong as you want to be though.
No it doesn't.
Image

"She said this system ["Spiritual Wife System"] was not perfectly developed until after Joseph's death, and that she did not think that he would have approved of it had he lived longer; and that previously to their starting for the West, many poor, deluded females were shut up in the Temple with these "Saintly" deceivers, under the name of performing various religious ceremonies, but which, it is believed, ended in most gross immoralities. She mentioned many families that had been entirely broken up, and made desolate, --- wives leaving in some cases their husbands and children, --- husbands bringing other women inter families, forming a complete harem, --- and young girls sacrificing themselves, in the belief that it insured their salvation to become the handmaids of the "Saints". The picture which was drawn was a sad one, and she seemed to feel it deeply. "
Who developed the system that wasn't perfect before Joseph died?

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Re: Women and Polygamy

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Luke wrote: November 7th, 2022, 4:34 pm I don’t think that Brigham was on the same level as Joseph but I don’t think that he was “wrong”. What differences existed between Joseph and Brigham’s practise of polygamy?
Polygamy can ONLY be practiced by spiritually advanced individuals, and I mean patriarchs. Men who are in possession of all priesthood. Brigham Young was never this person.

Jacob reprimanded the Nephites for this practice because it is a higher law that, if practice by those who aren't capable of it, it will ruin them (and as he indicated, likely damage others in the process). Polygamy ruined David and Solomon, as he pointed out. David became unable to resist base desires. Solomon was introduced to foreign (pagan) practices. This obviously resulted in their downfall.

For Abraham and Israel, this was not the case. These were patriarchs who were spiritually advanced and capable of living higher laws. Abraham, for example, was called a friend of God. Israel was the father of the people of promise. There are others in the scriptures, upon careful reading, also shown to have practiced polygamy, but going into that will likely get this post deleted, so I'll leave that to be discovered by anyone interested in making the effort. In any case they were also spiritually advanced individuals, to say the least. What I am certain is that these men who did practice nevertheless did not have many wives. As far as I know they only had two at most, depending on how one considers concubines, in which case it was four. Also of note, they did not enter their practice of their own will, it was essentially put upon them by others. I suspect the same was true for Joseph. Can anyone say that of Brigham?

Compare that with Brigham Young, who had 56. What possible justification is there for that? There is none. This says to me Brigham had lustful motives, and it very likely led to his murder, if one looks at covered up history. Polygamy was likely the underpinnings of Joseph's death as well, but for different reasons that weren't his doing. While it was made clear to me Joseph did practice polygamy, it's unclear exactly who they were given how the Utah leadership muddied the waters so much, or if any of them were even consummated. Also, as I pointed out in a different thread recently, Joseph had different aims when it came to sealings which also makes it unclear what his intentions may have been in some instances. Some were just meant to be sealings (which could also include men), not marriages. The Utah leadership really didn't seem to understand what Joseph was doing, and more importantly, assumed they had the same privileges God never extended to them. If you want a difference, look what is stated in the Doctrine and Covenants. Privileges and rights were specifically granted to Joseph by name. Brigham and his successors were never named, and thus never received any authority that they took upon themselves. One instance I quoted in another thread from Section 124 stated that if the Saints fulfilled the commandment, that the fulness of the priesthood would be given to Joseph and Hyrum. Notice Brigham is not named.

Whatever one thinks of Section 132, it does have rules, and in many cases Brigham didn't bother to follow them, and his polyamorous buddies often failed as well. I had a mission president who had been an institute instructor, and he once told me that if one undertakes polygamy improperly, they will lose their soul. Given Jacob's strong wording, he's probably right. God holds back truth from us for which we're not ready as a mercy; advanced truths will exalt advanced souls, but can be the downfall of those not ready for them. In Brigham's case, his downfall led to polygamy, not the other way around.

I wonder what Jacob would have said if he saw what Brigham had done. I don't think he would have had any kind words for him either. How anyone can look at a man having 56 wives and think that was a good thing is certainly beyond me. None of the great men of the scriptures who finished well went anywhere near that extreme. Polygamy is a textbook example of what happens when spiritual laws are wrested by the carnally minded.

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ithink
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Re: Women and Polygamy

Post by ithink »

innocentoldguy wrote: November 8th, 2022, 12:04 pm
William Marks left the church and ended up in the RLDS church, which is where this quote comes from. They disavowed polygamy and spent years trying to pretend Joseph Smith didn't practice it.
Uh-huh. It is common, upon leaving one cult, to make or join another.

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FrankOne
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Re: Women and Polygamy

Post by FrankOne »

gruden2.0 wrote: November 9th, 2022, 3:33 am
Luke wrote: November 7th, 2022, 4:34 pm I don’t think that Brigham was on the same level as Joseph but I don’t think that he was “wrong”. What differences existed between Joseph and Brigham’s practise of polygamy?
Polygamy can ONLY be practiced by spiritually advanced individuals, and I mean patriarchs. Men who are in possession of all priesthood. Brigham Young was never this person.

Jacob reprimanded the Nephites for this practice because it is a higher law that, if practice by those who aren't capable of it, it will ruin them (and as he indicated, likely damage others in the process). Polygamy ruined David and Solomon, as he pointed out. David became unable to resist base desires. Solomon was introduced to foreign (pagan) practices. This obviously resulted in their downfall.

You often have used the term "advanced souls" as well as "downfall".

I am surmising that you believe in eternal progression, whether that means multiple mortal probations or advancement from kingdom to kingdom, it doesn't really matter.

using that premise, what does "downfall" really mean in an eternal scope? We fall for experience. and....then we get up.

Yes, no doubt, polygamy is only functional if practiced by "advanced souls", that is certain, but it's no different than learning in monogamy except the marriage relationship in polygamy is much more of a refiners fire for ALL parties involved.

The same argument can be made of monogamy as polygamy. Most monogamist marriages fail. Does that mean that their lives were failures? Of course not. We fall to learn. Then we get up. Are those that have bad marriages result in the "downfall" of these peoples souls? Are they damned forever? Of course not.

The entire concept of polygamy has been hyper-inflated into some dramatic subject of debate by those sitting in armchairs picking through scriptures to attack it or even defend it.

When practiced by consenting adults, it's just the refiners fire of monogamy X 10.

It's all in Gods plan. All of it. Eternal progression is real. Nothing can thwart the plan of God and he will see all of his children through their difficulties and education all the way back to him. <This is the good news of Jesus Christ. If truth doesn't set you free, then it is not truth.

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Re: Women and Polygamy

Post by ithink »

cab wrote: November 8th, 2022, 9:32 am
I’d love to hear more about the experience you are speaking of
It's on this site somewhere, and in my book which would provide better context.

Here it is:
viewtopic.php?p=1215355&hilit=depressio ... k#p1215355

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Re: Women and Polygamy

Post by gruden2.0 »

FrankOne wrote: November 9th, 2022, 8:41 am
gruden2.0 wrote: November 9th, 2022, 3:33 am
Luke wrote: November 7th, 2022, 4:34 pm I don’t think that Brigham was on the same level as Joseph but I don’t think that he was “wrong”. What differences existed between Joseph and Brigham’s practise of polygamy?
Polygamy can ONLY be practiced by spiritually advanced individuals, and I mean patriarchs. Men who are in possession of all priesthood. Brigham Young was never this person.

Jacob reprimanded the Nephites for this practice because it is a higher law that, if practice by those who aren't capable of it, it will ruin them (and as he indicated, likely damage others in the process). Polygamy ruined David and Solomon, as he pointed out. David became unable to resist base desires. Solomon was introduced to foreign (pagan) practices. This obviously resulted in their downfall.

You often have used the term "advanced souls" as well as "downfall".

I am surmising that you believe in eternal progression, whether that means multiple mortal probations or advancement from kingdom to kingdom, it doesn't really matter.
I do, but like polygamy, my view is a bit more nuanced on this topic. I have been given a few tidbits here and there that give me a little different view. There's so much more to this subject and we are but children discussing very big topics which is why I generally avoid threads on that topic. To say it doesn't really matter really trivializes it. Ask the Lord an interesting question about this subject and He might give you an interesting answer.
FrankOne wrote: November 9th, 2022, 8:41 am using that premise, what does "downfall" really mean in an eternal scope? We fall for experience. and....then we get up.
Well, you can always ask David. I'm sure he's enjoying his downfall immensely.
FrankOne wrote: November 9th, 2022, 8:41 am Yes, no doubt, polygamy is only functional if practiced by "advanced souls", that is certain, but it's no different than learning in monogamy except the marriage relationship in polygamy is much more of a refiners fire for ALL parties involved.

The same argument can be made of monogamy as polygamy. Most monogamist marriages fail. Does that mean that their lives were failures? Of course not. We fall to learn. Then we get up. Are those that have bad marriages result in the "downfall" of these peoples souls? Are they damned forever? Of course not.

The entire concept of polygamy has been hyper-inflated into some dramatic subject of debate by those sitting in armchairs picking through scriptures to attack it or even defend it.

When practiced by consenting adults, it's just the refiners fire of monogamy X 10.

It's all in Gods plan. All of it. Eternal progression is real. Nothing can thwart the plan of God and he will see all of his children through their difficulties and education all the way back to him. <This is the good news of Jesus Christ. If truth doesn't set you free, then it is not truth.
Everything is done by degrees, precept upon precept. Honestly, I find your response very superficial, it seems like Mormons fall to one side of the spectrum or another; the side that we have only one turn in this world which makes us more controllable and willing to submit to religious leaders out of great fear of mistakes, and the other end that is very laissez faire because it's just another probation, no big deal. We need to take a more balanced view. David's failures likely set him pretty far back, and probably same is true for Solomon. And some have done even worse than that. When Jesus says it would've been better for that person to have never been born, he means it. Things can get pretty serious if we're not careful, and polygamy is definitely one of those things one has to be careful about. David and Solomon should be huge cautionary tales in any case. Jacob thought it serious enough to really lay into the Nephites about this, do you know more than he?

As we approach Jesus' return, for most this is probably the last trip around the block. And for some of us, we only got one time around the block and that's it.

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Re: Women and Polygamy

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Re: Women and Polygamy

Post by FrankOne »

gruden2.0 wrote: November 9th, 2022, 9:18 am

Everything is done by degrees, precept upon precept. Honestly, I find your response very superficial, it seems like Mormons fall to one side of the spectrum or another; the side that we have only one turn in this world which makes us more controllable and willing to submit to religious leaders out of great fear of mistakes, and the other end that is very laissez faire because it's just another probation, no big deal. We need to take a more balanced view. David's failures likely set him pretty far back, and probably same is true for Solomon. And some have done even worse than that. When Jesus says it would've been better for that person to have never been born, he means it. Things can get pretty serious if we're not careful, and polygamy is definitely one of those things one has to be careful about. David and Solomon should be huge cautionary tales in any case. Jacob thought it serious enough to really lay into the Nephites about this, do you know more than he?

Some would consider my comments as very superficial and others, perhaps profound.

What I am conveying is similar to the scripture I've quoted here many times:

The words of Christ:

"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Some would find these words as pleasant or fanciful words. They are not. They are the most cutting and important that exist in all of scripture. The reason that they are relatively ignored is people want doctrine that they can nail up on a wall to qualify and quantify , to use to judge others and to identify their own prideful works . They want points which can be debated and argued. They want details within details and names of rungs on a ladder to heaven.

The above is the similitude of the ancient Jews and it is again, right here, right now.

Likely the greatest offense Christ could have given a stiff neck Jewish rabbi was that he needed to become as a little child. If one were to write down the attributes of a little child, they would find their own deficiencies which impede their entry to the Kingdom of God.

The work is within. The most profound teachings are the most simple. Dissection of qualifying works to gain heaven is a vain endeavor.

The Gospel is simple. The natural man is complex.

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Re: Women and Polygamy

Post by gruden2.0 »

FrankOne wrote: November 9th, 2022, 9:46 am Some would consider my comments as very superficial and others, perhaps profound.

What I am conveying is similar to the scripture I've quoted here many times:

The words of Christ:

"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Some would find these words as pleasant or fanciful words. They are not. They are the most cutting and important that exist in all of scripture. The reason that they are relatively ignored is people want doctrine that they can nail up on a wall to qualify and quantify , to use to judge others and to identify their own prideful works . They want points which can be debated and argued. They want details within details and names of rungs on a ladder to heaven.

The above is the similitude of the ancient Jews and it is again, right here, right now.

Likely the greatest offense Christ could have given a stiff neck Jewish rabbi was that he needed to become as a little child. If one were to write down the attributes of a little child, they would find their own deficiencies which impede their entry to the Kingdom of God.

The work is within. The most profound teachings are the most simple. Dissection of qualifying works to gain heaven is a vain endeavor.

The Gospel is simple. The natural man is complex.
If you say so. I leave you to it.

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Re: Women and Polygamy

Post by innocentoldguy »

ithink wrote: November 9th, 2022, 8:39 am
innocentoldguy wrote: November 8th, 2022, 12:04 pm
William Marks left the church and ended up in the RLDS church, which is where this quote comes from. They disavowed polygamy and spent years trying to pretend Joseph Smith didn't practice it.
Uh-huh. It is common, upon leaving one cult, to make or join another.
Meh.

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Re: Women and Polygamy

Post by Alexander »

innocentoldguy wrote: November 9th, 2022, 12:01 am
Alexander wrote: November 8th, 2022, 4:12 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 8th, 2022, 12:32 pm
Alexander wrote: November 8th, 2022, 12:27 pm

Had a hunch this would be what you pull up.

No she didn’t. Nowhere in that article does “she admit that Joseph practiced polygamy”. You’re lying *again*.
Sure it does. If it wasn't "perfected until after Joseph's death," then who instituted it while he was still alive. Was he the prophet and leader of the church or not?

Of course, you're also ignoring the myriad other accounts that Joseph Smith did indeed engage in polygamy, so I'm not surprised you'd be dismissive of this one too. You're welcome to be as wrong as you want to be though.
No it doesn't.
Image

"She said this system ["Spiritual Wife System"] was not perfectly developed until after Joseph's death, and that she did not think that he would have approved of it had he lived longer; and that previously to their starting for the West, many poor, deluded females were shut up in the Temple with these "Saintly" deceivers, under the name of performing various religious ceremonies, but which, it is believed, ended in most gross immoralities. She mentioned many families that had been entirely broken up, and made desolate, --- wives leaving in some cases their husbands and children, --- husbands bringing other women inter families, forming a complete harem, --- and young girls sacrificing themselves, in the belief that it insured their salvation to become the handmaids of the "Saints". The picture which was drawn was a sad one, and she seemed to feel it deeply. "
Who developed the system that wasn't perfect before Joseph died?
John Bennett, Willard Richards, Brigham Young, and other false brethren.

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Re: Women and Polygamy

Post by innocentoldguy »

Alexander wrote: November 10th, 2022, 6:32 am
innocentoldguy wrote: November 9th, 2022, 12:01 am
Alexander wrote: November 8th, 2022, 4:12 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 8th, 2022, 12:32 pm

Sure it does. If it wasn't "perfected until after Joseph's death," then who instituted it while he was still alive. Was he the prophet and leader of the church or not?

Of course, you're also ignoring the myriad other accounts that Joseph Smith did indeed engage in polygamy, so I'm not surprised you'd be dismissive of this one too. You're welcome to be as wrong as you want to be though.
No it doesn't.
Image

"She said this system ["Spiritual Wife System"] was not perfectly developed until after Joseph's death, and that she did not think that he would have approved of it had he lived longer; and that previously to their starting for the West, many poor, deluded females were shut up in the Temple with these "Saintly" deceivers, under the name of performing various religious ceremonies, but which, it is believed, ended in most gross immoralities. She mentioned many families that had been entirely broken up, and made desolate, --- wives leaving in some cases their husbands and children, --- husbands bringing other women inter families, forming a complete harem, --- and young girls sacrificing themselves, in the belief that it insured their salvation to become the handmaids of the "Saints". The picture which was drawn was a sad one, and she seemed to feel it deeply. "
Who developed the system that wasn't perfect before Joseph died?
John Bennett, Willard Richards, Brigham Young, and other false brethren.
Great! Now cite it. Also cite other examples of revelations that Joseph Smith didn't dive head first into himself before teaching the rest of the church.

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