Why human sacrifice?

[darknesstolight]

Because Jesus was a man who experienced mortality like we did and when He was alone He felt alone. He felt pain. He was not impervious to human suffering. He had moments of doubt and moments of sadness and moments where He felt weak and abandoned and that was all experienced as a mortal man experiences it.

Jesus is not a human sacrifice and that isn't how and why you get "saved" because you were able to magically transfer your sins to another God.

...

Magic?

Me being cleansed through the blood of the Lamb is magic compared to you cleaning yourself?

You think your repentance process is somehow more than mine?

You think I whip Jesus by confession?

Lol what? you think you're more sorry than one who goes to God for recompense than looking to oneself

You are not enough to wash yourself.

If not for Jesus... you'd need to pay yourself, which would cause you to bleed out and die. Yes Jesus was a man, but the manner of man is beyond anything you could without the man Jesus.... hence me not calling you Master.

I worship Jesus. The being. If He came to me right now...I'd bow at His feet.

Do you bow to a mirror?

"These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

'O then ye unbelieving, turn ye unto the Lord; cry mightily unto the Father in the name of Jesus, that perhaps ye may be found spotless, pure, fair, and white, having been cleansed by the blood of the Lamb, at that great and last day."
-------------

You're not debating me....take it up with the ink

Your whole post is a bunch of virtue signaling and you just ignored the issues in your particular idol worship that I pointed out. Not sure why you think your Jesus idol has magical powers to transfer guilt from you to IT by you worshipping ITs murder.

The idol you worship is an object not a God or even a man.

...

I don't worship God and I'm just virtue signaling? What an asinine thing to say to me. You have the streak of abuser and accuser... Should I claim that you worship Satan?

You think you can wash your own sins away. It's nonsense. But I wouldn't go as far to think I know that you worship God or not.

What a toddler like thing for you to say lol

Because you don't understand something...doesn't make it magic, little guy.

Because I believe the guy who would raise people from the dead, cause the blind to see, made the crippled whole.... Has power to forgive my sins.

AND you claim "magic"

Lol get over yourself , little man.
Calling me a "Murderer!!".

Nightlight you can get angry and say or do whatever you want and it will not have any affect in a way to alter what I have said as being true. So because I pointed out that your particular belief system at the end of the day is worshipping the idol of Jesus and I pointed out how by desiring your idol to be murdered and tortured so you can be "saved" you end up worshipping the murder of your idol and your idol turns out to be an object not a real person and pointing this out makes you angry.

Worshipping Jesus the idol is different than worshipping Christ. Nobody can save themselves without Christ.

Getting a dopamine hit from virtue signaling is a sorry excuse for the Holy Spirit.

...

[nightlight]

Magic?

Me being cleansed through the blood of the Lamb is magic compared to you cleaning yourself?

You think your repentance process is somehow more than mine?

You think I whip Jesus by confession?

Lol what? you think you're more sorry than one who goes to God for recompense than looking to oneself

You are not enough to wash yourself.

If not for Jesus... you'd need to pay yourself, which would cause you to bleed out and die. Yes Jesus was a man, but the manner of man is beyond anything you could without the man Jesus.... hence me not calling you Master.

I worship Jesus. The being. If He came to me right now...I'd bow at His feet.

Do you bow to a mirror?

"These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

'O then ye unbelieving, turn ye unto the Lord; cry mightily unto the Father in the name of Jesus, that perhaps ye may be found spotless, pure, fair, and white, having been cleansed by the blood of the Lamb, at that great and last day."
-------------

You're not debating me....take it up with the ink

Your whole post is a bunch of virtue signaling and you just ignored the issues in your particular idol worship that I pointed out. Not sure why you think your Jesus idol has magical powers to transfer guilt from you to IT by you worshipping ITs murder.

The idol you worship is an object not a God or even a man.

...

I don't worship God and I'm just virtue signaling? What an asinine thing to say to me. You have the streak of abuser and accuser... Should I claim that you worship Satan?

You think you can wash your own sins away. It's nonsense. But I wouldn't go as far to think I know that you worship God or not.

What a toddler like thing for you to say lol

Because you don't understand something...doesn't make it magic, little guy.

Because I believe the guy who would raise people from the dead, cause the blind to see, made the crippled whole.... Has power to forgive my sins.

AND you claim "magic"

Lol get over yourself , little man.
Calling me a "Murderer!!".

Nightlight you can get angry and say or do whatever you want and it will not have any affect in a way to alter what I have said as being true. So because I pointed out that your particular belief system at the end of the day is worshipping the idol of Jesus and I pointed out how by desiring your idol to be murdered and tortured so you can be "saved" you end up worshipping the murder of your idol and your idol turns out to be an object not a real person and pointing this out makes you angry.

Worshipping Jesus the idol is different than worshipping Christ. Nobody can save themselves without Christ.

Getting a dopamine hit from virtue signaling is a sorry excuse for the Holy Spirit.

...

You can try to put me in a box if you want.

I cannot deny the power of Jesus Christ in my life.... And I will continue to express it.
You can call it virtue signaling if you want

I am a Son of Jesus Christ. Go ahead and tell me what I'm not...but it's just chaff in the wind.

The New age religion tries to separate Jesus from Christ, but it won't change the man from appearing in glory to the

2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

3 And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.

4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?

6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house

[gruden2.0]

I take it you haven't read Isaiah 53. He is "like a lamb led to slaughter."

To that end, the Passover Lamb ritual symbolizes Christ and His sacrificial death. It's reasonable to conclude Jesus' death was part of His sacrifice as well. "He made his life an offering for guilt." (v.10)

Yes, that is true, though I don't agree with your conclusion. Just because God gave the true prophecy and the act of similitude, doesn't mean He wanted it to happen that way. The Father didn't require a murderous death. He obviously knew it was going to happen and allowed it. However, the crucifixion was an evil act that the Father did not approve of, otherwise all the darkness, death and destruction would not have occurred afterward.

Do you think God actually wanted people to kill His Son? Do you think those people will be held accountable for the murder of Jesus, if unrepentant? If God actually required it, then how could it be a sin to carry out the Father's will? After all, they had been killing Jesus symbolically for thousands of years. Why would Jesus ask God to forgive them for it, then?

This was actually the conclusion Caiaphas came to through prophecy. Maybe He was just doing the Father's will.

John 11
49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

Or maybe, just maybe, that ordinance was to teach them what not to do. Maybe what God really wanted was for people to love Jesus and accept his message, to learn to love one another and live in peace and harmony together.

Would the atonement truly not be complete if the people had actually chosen a more righteous way? I, personally, don't think so.

God didn't want to flood the earth, but what was happening here made it necessary. God does what needs to be done and is fully justified, whether it is preferred or desired in many ways is besides the point. The agency of man drives the means to the outcome, but because God is in charge the outcome is the best possible.

Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower and he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit and the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one and stoned another. Again he sent other servants, more than the first and they did likewise to them. Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him. “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?” They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.” Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone. This was the Lord’s doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes?’

Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it and whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder. Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them, but when they sought to lay hands on Him, they feared the multitudes, because they took Him for a prophet.

Quoting this prophecy, it was clear from the beginning the savior would be slain, but it was also clear Jesus would win in the end. Jesus was sent to a world that would crucify its savior, it was known from the beginning, so it seems like splitting hairs discussing "what if's". All prophecy pointed to the outcome that was realized, so I don't see the point. You could argue as well, what if Adam and Eve chose differently? You can spend a lot of time on "what if's" and most the time it won't get you far.

[blitzinstripes]

I saw something a little while ago that talked about no matter how you look at it, Christianity is based on human sacrifice, because we believe that Christ had to die as a sacrifice. I couldn’t dispute that fact. I believe Christ to be my Savior and that He atoned for us because of His love for us. However, why was a human sacrifice required?

I have read How the Atonement Works by Cleon Skousen, and I think that gives as good an explanation as anything, but I don’t think it’s very clear in our scriptures or theology, outside of that talk, why Christ’s sacrifice would cleanse us of our sins. I’m wondering if anyone has any insights because isn’t it a little strange that we teach our kids from birth that someone has to die for them? We couch it in love, but the concept is kind of morbid when you start to think about it.

CS Lewis actually taught this principle very well in his timeless series "The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe", which was nothing more than a parable to help young Christian readers understand Christianity and the atonement through symbolism.

Eternal laws which God himself abides, demanded that mankind be punished for sin, and the punishment is death. Both physical and spiritual. The devil and his legion of demons had a very valid claim on each of our souls due to our own sins and uncleanliness. However when Jesus Christ offered himself as a proxy sacrifice for us, they eagerly accepted the chance to impose all the pain and misery and the depths of hell upon him, truly believing, in my opinion, that they would DESTROY him, and claim a mighty victory in the process. Just as the Witch believed when they slew the willing Aslan, the Lion.

Interestingly, this scenario seems to play out in almost every action movie, etc. The forces of evil capture a family member of the hero. The hero convinces the villain to let the captive go and take the Hero instead. After all, He is the one they truly want to kill. Usually these have happy endings. The hero escapes and defeats the villains.

I honestly think that Satan believed that they would destroy Jesus. That his soul couldn't possibly withstand that degree of pain and suffering. They gave him every ounce of what they had, and He took it, every stripe. Only a God could do what He did.

[innocentoldguy]

I saw something a little while ago that talked about no matter how you look at it, Christianity is based on human sacrifice, because we believe that Christ had to die as a sacrifice. I couldn’t dispute that fact. I believe Christ to be my Savior and that He atoned for us because of His love for us. However, why was a human sacrifice required?

I have read How the Atonement Works by Cleon Skousen, and I think that gives as good an explanation as anything, but I don’t think it’s very clear in our scriptures or theology, outside of that talk, why Christ’s sacrifice would cleanse us of our sins. I’m wondering if anyone has any insights because isn’t it a little strange that we teach our kids from birth that someone has to die for them? We couch it in love, but the concept is kind of morbid when you start to think about it.

I haven't read How the Atonement Works, but Cleon Skousen gave a talk about it that I thought was compelling. You can find the audio CD here: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NJADE7O?ps ... yp_imgToDp

[Thinker]

At the end of the day, what matters are the fruits - or effects - of a belief.

Would God - who created us as works in progress - punish us for being as God created us? How do I act if I worship a god like that?

Would God, who commanded “Thou shalt not kill” require killing to be appeased? How is my character molded if I believe that?

If the story of Jesus taking on extra sins has truth, and if I “liken” it to myself - would I shift responsibility to try to make another pay… or would I bear afflictions well so that I might even be able to help others besides myself?

[darknesstolight]

Your whole post is a bunch of virtue signaling and you just ignored the issues in your particular idol worship that I pointed out. Not sure why you think your Jesus idol has magical powers to transfer guilt from you to IT by you worshipping ITs murder.

The idol you worship is an object not a God or even a man.

...

I don't worship God and I'm just virtue signaling? What an asinine thing to say to me. You have the streak of abuser and accuser... Should I claim that you worship Satan?

You think you can wash your own sins away. It's nonsense. But I wouldn't go as far to think I know that you worship God or not.

What a toddler like thing for you to say lol

Because you don't understand something...doesn't make it magic, little guy.

Because I believe the guy who would raise people from the dead, cause the blind to see, made the crippled whole.... Has power to forgive my sins.

AND you claim "magic"

Lol get over yourself , little man.
Calling me a "Murderer!!".

Nightlight you can get angry and say or do whatever you want and it will not have any affect in a way to alter what I have said as being true. So because I pointed out that your particular belief system at the end of the day is worshipping the idol of Jesus and I pointed out how by desiring your idol to be murdered and tortured so you can be "saved" you end up worshipping the murder of your idol and your idol turns out to be an object not a real person and pointing this out makes you angry.

Worshipping Jesus the idol is different than worshipping Christ. Nobody can save themselves without Christ.

Getting a dopamine hit from virtue signaling is a sorry excuse for the Holy Spirit.

...

You can try to put me in a box if you want.

I cannot deny the power of Jesus Christ in my life.... And I will continue to express it.
You can call it virtue signaling if you want

I am a Son of Jesus Christ. Go ahead and tell me what I'm not...but it's just chaff in the wind.

The New age religion tries to separate Jesus from Christ, but it won't change the man from appearing in glory to the

2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

3 And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.

4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?

6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house

I have pointed to the truth and your reaction is revealing about you and not me.

Explain the mechanism by which your guilt and the consequences for your sins get transferred to another man and they suffer for your sins rather than you?

What allows such an injustice to become justice?

Saying that when I am feeling guilt and shame I can go harm the man Jesus because He can take it and then I will be without guilt or shame or without responsibility for my sins is a description of magic. And the idea that you get to repeat this transfer of guilt and shame and consequences to another man who is completely innocent, repeatedly over and over, through out your whole life is wicked and sadistic.

Blaming others for your weakness is evil. Expecting someone else innocent to suffer for your weakness is sadistic and wicked. Desiring the torture and murder of a man so you can be saved is twisted and evil.

I am describing a reality for anyone who subscribes to what I call the Jesus Idol Worship.

We are all responsible and accountable for the boxes we exist in. No one else is responsible for your choices but you and nobody else is responsible for my choices but me, unless I'm a child without responsibility.

...

[nightlight]

I don't worship God and I'm just virtue signaling? What an asinine thing to say to me. You have the streak of abuser and accuser... Should I claim that you worship Satan?

You think you can wash your own sins away. It's nonsense. But I wouldn't go as far to think I know that you worship God or not.

What a toddler like thing for you to say lol

Because you don't understand something...doesn't make it magic, little guy.

Because I believe the guy who would raise people from the dead, cause the blind to see, made the crippled whole.... Has power to forgive my sins.

AND you claim "magic"

Lol get over yourself , little man.
Calling me a "Murderer!!".

Nightlight you can get angry and say or do whatever you want and it will not have any affect in a way to alter what I have said as being true. So because I pointed out that your particular belief system at the end of the day is worshipping the idol of Jesus and I pointed out how by desiring your idol to be murdered and tortured so you can be "saved" you end up worshipping the murder of your idol and your idol turns out to be an object not a real person and pointing this out makes you angry.

Worshipping Jesus the idol is different than worshipping Christ. Nobody can save themselves without Christ.

Getting a dopamine hit from virtue signaling is a sorry excuse for the Holy Spirit.

...

You can try to put me in a box if you want.

I cannot deny the power of Jesus Christ in my life.... And I will continue to express it.
You can call it virtue signaling if you want

I am a Son of Jesus Christ. Go ahead and tell me what I'm not...but it's just chaff in the wind.

The New age religion tries to separate Jesus from Christ, but it won't change the man from appearing in glory to the

2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

3 And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.

4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?

6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house

I have pointed to the truth and your reaction is revealing about you and not me.

Explain the mechanism by which your guilt and the consequences for your sins get transferred to another man and they suffer for your sins rather than you?

What allows such an injustice to become justice?

Saying that when I am feeling guilt and shame I can go harm the man Jesus because He can take it and then I will be without guilt or shame or without responsibility for my sins is a description of magic. And the idea that you get to repeat this transfer of guilt and shame and consequences to another man who is completely innocent, repeatedly over and over, through out your whole life is wicked and sadistic.

Blaming others for your weakness is evil. Expecting someone else innocent to suffer for your weakness is sadistic and wicked. Desiring the torture and murder of a man so you can be saved is twisted and evil.

I am describing a reality for anyone who subscribes to what I call the Jesus Idol Worship.

We are all responsible and accountable for the boxes we exist in. No one else is responsible for your choices but you and nobody else is responsible for my choices but me, unless I'm a child without responsibility.

...

Jesus already paid for me before I was born. He has power to forgive sin. If you want to call His power "magic"....go ahead

I don't blame God for my weaknesses. I came here so that He could make weak things strong.
I take responsibility for my wrongdoings... And I experience the same godly anguish that you or any aware human being does.

But I understand that the thing that makes me whole is Jesus Christ.
My sin and death is swallowed up in His love for me.

Without the man Jesus.... Justice would have claim on me. And me feeling super bad and sorry would not appease Justice.

You are not your advocate.

2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

3 And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.

4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?

6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house

[Thinker]

Jesus already paid for me before I was born. He has power to forgive sin. If you want to call His power "magic"....go ahead…

Without the man Jesus.... Justice would have claim on me. And me feeling super bad and sorry would not appease Justice.

You are not your advocate…

“…6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house”

^Interesting scripture. At the root of sin is incorrect thought which precedes feeling & state or action. Incorrect thought is known to affect us physically (placebo or nocebo effects). This scripture, to me, teaches this fact, as well as how we may sometimes correct or heal thoughts which then heal one’s body.

You cannot do this for me, nor can I do this for you. Nobody can take your free agency away - especially thoughts are under your own jurisdiction.

Deeper (meatier) ideas are
1) Taking responsibility for our thoughts, including how we are so quick to believe scriptures corrupted by Eusebius like human sacrifice scapegoating. Both are evil - deep down you know that. But the dogmatic tradition is so strong that the evil is ignored.
2) Likening scripture to us, ESPECIALLY, those godly scriptures about Christ. Do you really think they are a literal history lesson? No way! This is deeper - this is meant to be personalized. Maybe initially one sees it as external, but gradually - & ideally, one sees that Christ was not the great exception but the great example that we try to follow.

That’s not to suggest we should all become martyrs but rather liken the symbolism of Christ to ourselves… Eg., Bear our own crosses/burdens well - not by trying to shift blame - but by faith in God & trusting that God will strengthen us, making it easier to bear & so we even sometimes help bear others’ burdens too.

Life is suffering - we all lose people we love, & I may get out of this world alive, or die trying. Sometimes it feels as if life is unfair, especially if you’ve been abused, betrayed and otherwise treated unfairly. Consider what Christ represents… a good person nailed up on a cross UNFAIRLY, betrayed by his family & friends. And yet, he kept his integrity, Spirit & love despite it. That’s an encouraging, desperately needed example.

See especially abt: 3:00 - 7:00… Christ is a fitting symbol for what we all experience
https://youtu.be/-IejKIjC6hw

[darknesstolight]

Nightlight you can get angry and say or do whatever you want and it will not have any affect in a way to alter what I have said as being true. So because I pointed out that your particular belief system at the end of the day is worshipping the idol of Jesus and I pointed out how by desiring your idol to be murdered and tortured so you can be "saved" you end up worshipping the murder of your idol and your idol turns out to be an object not a real person and pointing this out makes you angry.

Worshipping Jesus the idol is different than worshipping Christ. Nobody can save themselves without Christ.

Getting a dopamine hit from virtue signaling is a sorry excuse for the Holy Spirit.

...

You can try to put me in a box if you want.

I cannot deny the power of Jesus Christ in my life.... And I will continue to express it.
You can call it virtue signaling if you want

I am a Son of Jesus Christ. Go ahead and tell me what I'm not...but it's just chaff in the wind.

The New age religion tries to separate Jesus from Christ, but it won't change the man from appearing in glory to the

2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

3 And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.

4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?

6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house

I have pointed to the truth and your reaction is revealing about you and not me.

Explain the mechanism by which your guilt and the consequences for your sins get transferred to another man and they suffer for your sins rather than you?

What allows such an injustice to become justice?

Saying that when I am feeling guilt and shame I can go harm the man Jesus because He can take it and then I will be without guilt or shame or without responsibility for my sins is a description of magic. And the idea that you get to repeat this transfer of guilt and shame and consequences to another man who is completely innocent, repeatedly over and over, through out your whole life is wicked and sadistic.

Blaming others for your weakness is evil. Expecting someone else innocent to suffer for your weakness is sadistic and wicked. Desiring the torture and murder of a man so you can be saved is twisted and evil.

I am describing a reality for anyone who subscribes to what I call the Jesus Idol Worship.

We are all responsible and accountable for the boxes we exist in. No one else is responsible for your choices but you and nobody else is responsible for my choices but me, unless I'm a child without responsibility.

...

Jesus already paid for me before I was born. He has power to forgive sin. If you want to call His power "magic"....go ahead

I don't blame God for my weaknesses. I came here so that He could make weak things strong.
I take responsibility for my wrongdoings... And I experience the same godly anguish that you or any aware human being does.

But I understand that the thing that makes me whole is Jesus Christ.
My sin and death is swallowed up in His love for me.

Without the man Jesus.... Justice would have claim on me. And me feeling super bad and sorry would not appease Justice.

You are not your advocate.

2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

3 And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.

4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?

6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house

Repeating what you believe doesn't address the issues with your particular type of idol worship.

I am calling your belief of the atonement magic. The real atonement is not magic.

I am asking you to describe the process by which you can sin and then someone who is innocent suffers the same consequences for a sin they didn't commit and how this removes your guilt or somehow makes it like you didn't do it? And how does this injustice become justice?

Your description and answer to how your guilt gets transferred to a a completely innocent person and how this can somehow cause you to be clean from sins has always been, "it's magic". So if it's not magic describe the processes and principles involved that makes real and truthful an idea that adheres to something more than, "magic"?

...

[nightlight]

Jesus already paid for me before I was born. He has power to forgive sin. If you want to call His power "magic"....go ahead…

Without the man Jesus.... Justice would have claim on me. And me feeling super bad and sorry would not appease Justice.

You are not your advocate…

“…6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house”

^


Deeper (meatier) ideas are
1) Taking responsibility for our thoughts, including how we are so quick to believe scriptures corrupted by Eusebius like human sacrifice scapegoating. Both are evil - deep down you know that. But the dogmatic tradition is so strong that the evil is ignored.
2) Likening scripture to us, ESPECIALLY, those godly scriptures about Christ. Do you really think they are a literal history lesson? No way!

With all due respect...

You're not debating the reality of the resurrected Jesus Christ with someone who hasn't seen Him and touched Him.

You may try to reason with yourself that maybe I'm delusional.... Or that people can create their own spiritual experience....etc

But that's not a me thing. That's a you thing.

It's like a blind person telling me that colors don't exist when you claim the resurrected Jesus is not a real thing

There was man born 2,000 years ago among the Jews. He did the things we claim

I don't know what else to say.

6 He is not here: for he is risen

[darknesstolight]

Jesus already paid for me before I was born. He has power to forgive sin. If you want to call His power "magic"....go ahead…

Without the man Jesus.... Justice would have claim on me. And me feeling super bad and sorry would not appease Justice.

You are not your advocate…

“…6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house”

^


Deeper (meatier) ideas are
1) Taking responsibility for our thoughts, including how we are so quick to believe scriptures corrupted by Eusebius like human sacrifice scapegoating. Both are evil - deep down you know that. But the dogmatic tradition is so strong that the evil is ignored.
2) Likening scripture to us, ESPECIALLY, those godly scriptures about Christ. Do you really think they are a literal history lesson? No way!

With all due respect...

You're not debating the reality of the resurrected Jesus Christ with someone who hasn't seen Him and touched Him.

You may try to reason with yourself that maybe I'm delusional.... Or that people can create their own spiritual experience....etc

But that's not a me thing. That's a you thing.

It's like a blind person telling me that colors don't exist when you claim the resurrected Jesus is not a real thing

There was man born 2,000 years ago among the Jews. He did the things we claim

I don't know what else to say.

6 He is not here: for he is risen

I know you don't know what to say because what you are saying is nonsense. I suspect you are responding the only way you can because there is no way for you to explain what you believe other than to simply assert you are right and others are wrong.

I can describe to you why the atonement works and why it doesn't work on the principle of needing to celebrate the torture and murder of another man.

Again your post focuses on virtue signaling and showing how loyal you are to your idol.

I do know what to say to you but you think I'm blind and you are not so you already know that the atonement works by magic.

Edit: You are lying when you assert that I don't believe in the resurrected Jesus the Christ. I have never made the claim you
say I have made. That's a convenient and dishonest way to dismiss an idea you don't want to deal with.

...

[nightlight]

You can try to put me in a box if you want.

I cannot deny the power of Jesus Christ in my life.... And I will continue to express it.
You can call it virtue signaling if you want

I am a Son of Jesus Christ. Go ahead and tell me what I'm not...but it's just chaff in the wind.

The New age religion tries to separate Jesus from Christ, but it won't change the man from appearing in glory to the

2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

3 And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.

4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?

6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house

I have pointed to the truth and your reaction is revealing about you and not me.

Explain the mechanism by which your guilt and the consequences for your sins get transferred to another man and they suffer for your sins rather than you?

What allows such an injustice to become justice?

Saying that when I am feeling guilt and shame I can go harm the man Jesus because He can take it and then I will be without guilt or shame or without responsibility for my sins is a description of magic. And the idea that you get to repeat this transfer of guilt and shame and consequences to another man who is completely innocent, repeatedly over and over, through out your whole life is wicked and sadistic.

Blaming others for your weakness is evil. Expecting someone else innocent to suffer for your weakness is sadistic and wicked. Desiring the torture and murder of a man so you can be saved is twisted and evil.

I am describing a reality for anyone who subscribes to what I call the Jesus Idol Worship.

We are all responsible and accountable for the boxes we exist in. No one else is responsible for your choices but you and nobody else is responsible for my choices but me, unless I'm a child without responsibility.

...

Jesus already paid for me before I was born. He has power to forgive sin. If you want to call His power "magic"....go ahead

I don't blame God for my weaknesses. I came here so that He could make weak things strong.
I take responsibility for my wrongdoings... And I experience the same godly anguish that you or any aware human being does.

But I understand that the thing that makes me whole is Jesus Christ.
My sin and death is swallowed up in His love for me.

Without the man Jesus.... Justice would have claim on me. And me feeling super bad and sorry would not appease Justice.

You are not your advocate.

2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

3 And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.

4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?

6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house

Repeating what you believe doesn't address the issues with your particular type of idol worship.

I am calling your belief of the atonement magic. The real atonement is not magic.

I am asking you to describe the process by which you can sin and then someone who is innocent suffers the same consequences for a sin they didn't commit and how this removes your guilt or somehow makes it like you didn't do it? And how does this injustice become justice?

Your description and answer to how your guilt gets transferred to a a completely innocent person and how this can somehow cause you to be clean from sins has always been, "it's magic". So if it's not magic describe the processes and principles involved that makes real and truthful an idea that adheres to something more than, "magic"?

...

I can't teach you to understand things that you won't understand

You lack the foundational understanding of what Justice & Mercy are.

You being super sorry is not enough to appease Justice. Your sorry without faith in the merits of Jesus Christ would mean that Justice would require your death and your soul

Everybody who is forgiven is sorry/humbled/ready to make what they can right..... when they go to God in repentance. But it's only through the infinite and eternal sacrifice of Jesus Christ that one is made clean

A light bulb is magic to a caveman

Here is a good explanation. There's many more in the scriptures. Pick them up

8 And now, behold, I will testify unto you of myself that these things are true. Behold, I say unto you, that I do know that Christ shall come among the children of men, to take upon him the transgressions of his people, and that he shall atone for the sins of the world; for the Lord God hath spoken it.

9 For it is expedient that an atonement should be made; for according to the great plan of the Eternal God there must be an atonement made, or else all mankind must unavoidably perish; yea, all are hardened; yea, all are fallen and are lost, and must perish except it be through the atonement which it is expedient should be made.

10 For it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice; yea, not a bsacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl; for it shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be an infinite and eternal esacrifice.

11 Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay.

12 But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world.

13 Therefore, it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice, and then shall there be, or it is expedient there should be, a stop to the shedding of blood; then shall the claw of Moses be fulfilled; yea, it shall be all fulfilled, every jot and tittle, and none shall have passed away.

14 And behold, this is the whole ameaning of the blaw, every whit cpointing to that great and last sacrifice; and that great and last sacrifice will be the Son of God, yea, infinite and eternal.

15 And thus he shall bring salvation to all those who shall believe on his name; this being the intent of this last sacrifice, to bring about the bowels of mercy, which overpowereth justice, and bringeth about means unto men that they may have faith unto repentance.

16 And thus mercy can satisfy the demands of justice, and encircles them in the arms of safety, while he that exercises no faith unto repentance is exposed to the whole law of the demands of justice; therefore only unto him that has faith unto repentance is brought about the great and eternal plan of redemption.

17 Therefore may God grant unto you, my brethren, that ye may begin to exercise your faith unto repentance, that ye begin to call upon his holy name, that he would have mercy upon you;

18 Yea, cry unto him for mercy; for he is mighty to save.

[nightlight]

Jesus already paid for me before I was born. He has power to forgive sin. If you want to call His power "magic"....go ahead…

Without the man Jesus.... Justice would have claim on me. And me feeling super bad and sorry would not appease Justice.

You are not your advocate…

“…6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house”

^


Deeper (meatier) ideas are
1) Taking responsibility for our thoughts, including how we are so quick to believe scriptures corrupted by Eusebius like human sacrifice scapegoating. Both are evil - deep down you know that. But the dogmatic tradition is so strong that the evil is ignored.
2) Likening scripture to us, ESPECIALLY, those godly scriptures about Christ. Do you really think they are a literal history lesson? No way!

With all due respect...

You're not debating the reality of the resurrected Jesus Christ with someone who hasn't seen Him and touched Him.

You may try to reason with yourself that maybe I'm delusional.... Or that people can create their own spiritual experience....etc

But that's not a me thing. That's a you thing.

It's like a blind person telling me that colors don't exist when you claim the resurrected Jesus is not a real thing

There was man born 2,000 years ago among the Jews. He did the things we claim

I don't know what else to say.

6 He is not here: for he is risen

I know you don't know what to say because what you are saying is nonsense. I suspect you are responding the only way you can because there is no way for you to explain what you believe other than to simply assert you are right and others are wrong.

I can describe to you why the atonement works and why it doesn't work on the principle of needing to celebrate the torture and murder of another man.

Again your post focuses on virtue signaling and showing how loyal you are to your idol.

I do know what to say to you but you think I'm blind and you are not so you already know that the atonement works by magic.

Edit: You are lying when you assert that I don't believe in the resurrected Jesus the Christ. I have never made the claim you
say I have made. That's a convenient and dishonest way to dismiss an idea you don't want to deal with.

...

Well lol ..its a good thing I was talking to Thinker and not you.

Try looking before posting

[darknesstolight]

^


Deeper (meatier) ideas are
1) Taking responsibility for our thoughts, including how we are so quick to believe scriptures corrupted by Eusebius like human sacrifice scapegoating. Both are evil - deep down you know that. But the dogmatic tradition is so strong that the evil is ignored.
2) Likening scripture to us, ESPECIALLY, those godly scriptures about Christ. Do you really think they are a literal history lesson? No way!

With all due respect...

You're not debating the reality of the resurrected Jesus Christ with someone who hasn't seen Him and touched Him.

You may try to reason with yourself that maybe I'm delusional.... Or that people can create their own spiritual experience....etc

But that's not a me thing. That's a you thing.

It's like a blind person telling me that colors don't exist when you claim the resurrected Jesus is not a real thing

There was man born 2,000 years ago among the Jews. He did the things we claim

I don't know what else to say.

6 He is not here: for he is risen

I know you don't know what to say because what you are saying is nonsense. I suspect you are responding the only way you can because there is no way for you to explain what you believe other than to simply assert you are right and others are wrong.

I can describe to you why the atonement works and why it doesn't work on the principle of needing to celebrate the torture and murder of another man.

Again your post focuses on virtue signaling and showing how loyal you are to your idol.

I do know what to say to you but you think I'm blind and you are not so you already know that the atonement works by magic.

Edit: You are lying when you assert that I don't believe in the resurrected Jesus the Christ. I have never made the claim you
say I have made. That's a convenient and dishonest way to dismiss an idea you don't want to deal with.

...

Well lol ..its a good thing I was talking to Thinker and not you.

Try looking before posting

Oh good point. My bad!

...

[Thinker]

…Deeper (meatier) ideas are
1) Taking responsibility for our thoughts, including how we are so quick to believe scriptures corrupted by Eusebius like human sacrifice scapegoating. Both are evil - deep down you know that. But the dogmatic tradition is so strong that the evil is ignored.
2) Likening scripture to us, ESPECIALLY, those godly scriptures about Christ. Do you really think they are a literal history lesson? No way!
…

With all due respect...

You're not debating the reality of the resurrected Jesus Christ with someone who hasn't seen Him and touched Him.

You may try to reason with yourself that maybe I'm delusional.... Or that people can create their own spiritual experience....etc

But that's not a me thing. That's a you thing.

It's like a blind person telling me that colors don't exist when you claim the resurrected Jesus is not a real thing

There was man born 2,000 years ago among the Jews. He did the things we claim

I don't know what else to say.

6 He is not here: for he is risen

With all due respect...
You are not the only one who has made an idol feel so real but all based on personification of subjective ideas of spirituality.

Eg…
“In our prayers we, as Hindus, know that we were addressing the one and only god, the creator of the universe and all in it, and that Ganesh and the other gods are but manifestations of God….”


Hindus having NDE and other spiritual experiences interpreted through THEIR dogma (as you have)… https://near-death.com/hinduism/


Which god?
https://youtu.be/QhMO5SSmiaA

[TheChristian]

I was in deep thought onetime, there appeared before me a venerable looking spirit person, he looked old and wise, had a long beard and dressed in a manner like those of the Bible times.
He spoke ever so gently and quietly to me, he quoted scripture and explained them to me in such a educated and reasoned manner, his words, his voice and his appeal to logic and his visual appearance all give forth the impression of a very pious and gentle religious man that had great learning and spiritual wisdom at his command, indeed he spoke like the ancient philosophers......
All the while he sought with great but gentle earnest to convince me that Jesus was not the Son of God, that His death apon the Cross availed mankind nothing..........
Yet this Spirit being had no glory, no light around him, but was in a grey mist and enamating from him was a great drearyness and misery, that he himself was filled with said drearyness and misery.
I told Him "Jesus was the Son of God and that he died apon the cross for me and all mankind"
At this the Spirit person slowly but surely dissapeared from before my eyes, taking with him his drearyness and his misery............

[nightlight]

…Deeper (meatier) ideas are
1) Taking responsibility for our thoughts, including how we are so quick to believe scriptures corrupted by Eusebius like human sacrifice scapegoating. Both are evil - deep down you know that. But the dogmatic tradition is so strong that the evil is ignored.
2) Likening scripture to us, ESPECIALLY, those godly scriptures about Christ. Do you really think they are a literal history lesson? No way!
…

With all due respect...

You're not debating the reality of the resurrected Jesus Christ with someone who hasn't seen Him and touched Him.

You may try to reason with yourself that maybe I'm delusional.... Or that people can create their own spiritual experience....etc

But that's not a me thing. That's a you thing.

It's like a blind person telling me that colors don't exist when you claim the resurrected Jesus is not a real thing

There was man born 2,000 years ago among the Jews. He did the things we claim

I don't know what else to say.

6 He is not here: for he is risen

With all due respect...
You are not the only one who has made an idol feel so real but all based on personification of subjective ideas of spirituality.

Eg…
“In our prayers we, as Hindus, know that we were addressing the one and only god, the creator of the universe and all in it, and that Ganesh and the other gods are but manifestations of God….”


Hindus having NDE and other spiritual experiences interpreted through THEIR dogma (as you have)… https://near-death.com/hinduism/


Which god?
https://youtu.be/QhMO5SSmiaA

Quis ut Deus?

[Jonesy]

Satan uses human sacrifice as a way of controlling the world. Satan tried to make Jesus into a human sacrifice. It didn't work. Satan could not kill Jesus. Satan was defeated when He put Jesus on the cross. This is why Moses put the serpent on the pole... to remind us that Satan will be defeated by Jesus. The Satanists put Jesus on the pole, but Jesus put the snake on the pole. It was a battle that Jesus won fair and square. Everyone will confess that Jesus is more powerful than the powers of darkness. There is no excuse for serving the devil thinking he has power over death...not when you could believe in Jesus and be saved. Those who participate in human sacrifice and have heard the gospel of Jesus Christ, taught with love and not with compulsion... so they understand it... will go to outer darkness until they repent. Because no one is forced to participate in human sacrifice. No matter how much Satan tries to coerce people to participate in that stuff, Jesus showed He was the one with the keys to death, not Satan. Now, we choose whom we serve.

Sincere questions…

For those of you that believe this line of thought, are you saying that the death on the cross was not necessary? Only the sufferings in the garden of Gethsemane? Did Jesus not pay for our sins of our past and instead we will each pay for all our own sins? Why do you say human sacrifice when Jesus was the only begotten of the Father? He didn’t die until it was finished.

[Wondering Wendy]

Satan uses human sacrifice as a way of controlling the world. Satan tried to make Jesus into a human sacrifice. It didn't work. Satan could not kill Jesus. Satan was defeated when He put Jesus on the cross. This is why Moses put the serpent on the pole... to remind us that Satan will be defeated by Jesus. The Satanists put Jesus on the pole, but Jesus put the snake on the pole. It was a battle that Jesus won fair and square. Everyone will confess that Jesus is more powerful than the powers of darkness. There is no excuse for serving the devil thinking he has power over death...not when you could believe in Jesus and be saved. Those who participate in human sacrifice and have heard the gospel of Jesus Christ, taught with love and not with compulsion... so they understand it... will go to outer darkness until they repent. Because no one is forced to participate in human sacrifice. No matter how much Satan tries to coerce people to participate in that stuff, Jesus showed He was the one with the keys to death, not Satan. Now, we choose whom we serve.

Sincere questions…

For those of you that believe this line of thought, are you saying that the death on the cross was not necessary? Only the sufferings in the garden of Gethsemane? Did Jesus not pay for our sins of our past and instead we will each pay for all our own sins? Why do you say human sacrifice when Jesus was the only begotten of the Father? He didn’t die until it was finished.

I believe the death on the cross was unnecessary. His death was necessary; in order for our resurrection, Jesus needed to overcome death.

The crucifixion took place because the people rejected his message. All they had to do was choose him and he would have been set free. God foresaw and prophesied his death, even commanding teaching ordinances of the event, and allowed it to happen, just as he allowed the women and children to die in Alma 14.

10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene? Therefore let us stretch forth our hands, and exercise the power of God which is in us, and save them from the flames.

11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day.

I believe what he experienced in the garden was the results of our sins. Meaning, he experienced the pain of the victims of our sins. By "becoming" our victims, he alone now has the universal power to forgive and grant mercy, as only our victims truly have the power to forgive us.

There are many scriptures of this:

D&C 42:38 For inasmuch as ye do it unto the least of these, ye do it unto me.

Jesus did not take upon himself our sins, punishments. He took upon himself our sins, victims.

This is the idea in very simple terms. The Atonement book goes into this in great detail, citing many, many scriptures and some personal revelation. It is well worth reading and prayerfully pondering.

[Enoch]

Christ suffering as a victim of our sins - makes the loving God that Jesus taught about more congruent in character for me

The idea that God would punish his innocent son unjustly, steals justice from Gods character - when you have a law/rule, and someone infringes it and there is no consequence - it makes the law invalid or useless, inefective..?

Its even worse when the punishment as a consequence for that rule/law is placed upon an innocent soul - now its injustice

Alma 42
[11] Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay.

[abijah]

Jesus already paid for me before I was born. He has power to forgive sin. If you want to call His power "magic"....go ahead

You are not your advocate.

Edit:

Rev 13
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world .

Exodus 13
1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Sanctify unto me all the firstborn, whatsoever openeth the womb among the children of Israel, both of man and of beast: it is mine.

Jeremiah 1
4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.