Poll: LDS church is true, but everyone is false?

[LDS Watchman]

Saying that the Lord witnessed your lie is not taking the Lord's name in vain. This apparently is yet another thing that you have no understanding of.

Just look at how you lie, it's sad and I'm embarrassed for you. It seems like you just say whatever you want and claim that you already said it.
LDSW lie.1.JPG

I sincerely hope that you have people close to you that love you.

Man, you're piece of work.

Have you ever heard of context? What was I saying before I said that the temple had been completed?

Here's the first response I made to your claim that the church was rejected over failing to complete the Nauvoo temple.

The requirement was to build a temple with a baptismal font and move the ordinance of baptism for the dead into the temple. This was done before Joseph's death.

You are the one who is lying and making false accusations. End of story.

For your own sake, I suggest you stop it.

34 Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell. (2 Nephi 9)

Wow, you go back and forth to whatever suits you. Ok, now that you are going to push this point over the other ones, I hope you stick with it this time: even if you are grasping at straws. The ironic thing is that your point is narrow and misses the major portions of the point. You highlight a lesser part of the purpose; a part of the lesser priesthood. Do you not know the purpose of the Temple? Truthfully, your lack of respect for the House of the Lord and priesthood ordinances is astonishing for a TBM apologist.

The temple was for higher purposes, higher ordinances than only baptisms for the dead. They were instructed:
"38...to build a house in the land of promise, that those ordinances might be revealed which had been hid from before the world was...
39 for the beginning of the revelations and foundation of Zion, and for the glory, honor, and endowment of all her municipals, are ordained by the ordinance of my holy house, which my people are always commanded to build unto my holy name.
40 And verily I say unto you, let this house be built unto my name, that I may reveal mine ordinances therein unto my people;
41 For I deign to reveal unto my church things which have been kept hid from before the foundation of the world, things that pertain to the dispensation of the fulness of times.
42 And I will show unto my servant Joseph all things pertaining to this house, and the priesthood thereof..."

"44 If ye labor with all your might, I will consecrate that spot that it shall be made holy."
80% is not laboring with all one's might. unless you disagree. And this is precisely why 80% is not good enough...

It was meant to be a dwelling place, the House of the Lord, a Holy House where the Lord can teach and restore:
" 27...build a house to my name, for the Most High to dwell therein. 28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood."

Where the higher ordinances revealed by Joseph Smith in the Red Brick Store administered in the dedicated Nauvoo Temple?

Yes or no?

[Shawn Henry]

You should stay posting under a new account, because you have trashed the reputation of this one.

I think he has already done this, if I'm reading old threads correctly.

[Shawn Henry]

As for the interior not be finished all of the way, this principle applies:

49 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that when I give a commandment to any of the sons of men to do a work unto my name, and those sons of men go with all their might and with all they have to perform that work, and cease not their diligence, and their enemies come upon them and hinder them from performing that work, behold, it behooveth me to require that work no more at the hands of those sons of men, but to accept of their offerings. (D&C 124)

This principle would apply, if they had met its criteria.

Did they "go with all their might"? Did they "cease not their diligence"? No!!!!

Not even close. They had finished 5 Masonic lodges while the temple was still unfinished. The 12 finished their personal houses before the temple was finished.

Not to mention also that Joseph charged some of the 12 with misappropriating the building donations. Why do you think BY didn't stamp that out in his quorum? Maybe because they were following his orders?

[Reluctant Watchman]

You should stay posting under a new account, because you have trashed the reputation of this one.

I think he has already done this, if I'm reading old threads correctly.

He’s on his fourth account… that we know of.

[Shawn Henry]

Where the higher ordinances revealed by Joseph Smith in the Red Brick Store administered in the dedicated Nauvoo Temple?

This just opens up a whole new weakness in your argument. The Lord is quite clear that his House had to be built in order to reveal his ordinances, but the Red Brick store completely undermines that. Not only were they revealed in the Red Brick store, but they were carried out and executed there as well. Why stop at the 12 and the anointed quorum? If they could get their endowments there, why even have a temple? It clearly wasn't necessary. Is the temple for the masses and the Red Brick store for the elite?

[Shawn Henry]

He’s on his fourth account… that we know of.

It's like an apologetic addiction, I guess.

I'm not sure why honesty simply can't prevail. Would it be so hard to say, yes, it looks like the saints didn't meet the conditions in section 124, but I trust that they did.

Or how about simply saying, I agree that 'build a house' means a completed house, but I trust the Lord showed mercy.

[LDS Watchman]

You should stay posting under a new account, because you have trashed the reputation of this one.

I think he has already done this, if I'm reading old threads correctly.

He’s on his fourth account… that we know of.

I just have one account. But your obsession with trying to make me look bad is simply fascinating.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I wish his recent account name started with an “O”. Then we could just use the acronym: LMAO

[LDS Watchman]

He’s on his fourth account… that we know of.

It's like an apologetic addiction, I guess.

I'm not sure why honesty simply can't prevail. Would it be so hard to say, yes, it looks like the saints didn't meet the conditions in section 124, but I trust that they did.

Or how about simply saying, I agree that 'build a house' means a completed house, but I trust the Lord showed mercy.

I think I've made it abundantly clear that I believe that even though the temple was not completely finished on the inside that God accepted the Saints offering. And I've given my reasons why.

I understand why the likes of Watcher, Denver Snuffer, etc. claim that the church was rejected for not completely finishing the temple. And I also understand why people listen to these alternative voices. On the surface their argument sounds plausible. I have actually seriously considered their argument in the past. But after digging a little bit deeper I have concluded that this argument just doesn't hold water for lots of reasons.

Is that honest enough for you?

[Chris]

In essence, I understand "true" to refer to priesthood authority, and "living" to mean continuing revelation to and direction through the Lord's servants.

How do you know if someone is truly serving God?
Isn’t talk cheap - “faith without works dead”?
By their fruits ye shall know them.

Deuteronomy 14:28-29 (conveniently ignored in lds curriculums) states that tithing collectors are to give at least 1/3 of TITHES to those in need. Christ asked those who can, to give much more.

While we are often pressured and shamed into giving “honest tithes,” church leaders keep money dark and secret, though Oaks did admit no tithes go to the poor. Funds intended for the poor go to the corporate empire of mormon leaders and we have no clue or say in how it’s spent. We do know the church had some fancy malls built, and a list of greedy wordly companies using the name of Jesus Christ in vain. Meanwhile, about 1,000,000,000 of our brothers and sisters are starving.

Grand ribon-cutting opening by for another mall built using the name of Jesus Christ...






Even if you designated fast offerings - the church leaders now say it’s their money and they can use it as they want...

You know i am getting really sick of this argument. Why didnt the lord save all the hungry starving people when he was alive and ministering?? He didnt even save all the people in each town he went too?? Why

How about you? Are there any hungry people on your street? Your city or county. If so seems like you arent doing your duty.

Stop being a hypocrite and casting stones as judas did complaining on how the lord spends his money.

I happen to think they are very good stewards.

[The Red Pill]

In essence, I understand "true" to refer to priesthood authority, and "living" to mean continuing revelation to and direction through the Lord's servants.

How do you know if someone is truly serving God?
Isn’t talk cheap - “faith without works dead”?
By their fruits ye shall know them.

Deuteronomy 14:28-29 (conveniently ignored in lds curriculums) states that tithing collectors are to give at least 1/3 of TITHES to those in need. Christ asked those who can, to give much more.

While we are often pressured and shamed into giving “honest tithes,” church leaders keep money dark and secret, though Oaks did admit no tithes go to the poor. Funds intended for the poor go to the corporate empire of mormon leaders and we have no clue or say in how it’s spent. We do know the church had some fancy malls built, and a list of greedy wordly companies using the name of Jesus Christ in vain. Meanwhile, about 1,000,000,000 of our brothers and sisters are starving.

Grand ribon-cutting opening by for another mall built using the name of Jesus Christ...






Even if you designated fast offerings - the church leaders now say it’s their money and they can use it as they want...

Stop being a hypocrite and casting stones as judas did complaining on how the lord spends his money.

I happen to think they are very good stewards.

The Lord spends his money????

Good stewards????

Seriously....

The Lord has nothing to do with the 150 billion tithing slush fund...or a paid ministry that gets $152K base plus perks...FALLIBLE IMPERFECT MEN DO.

Don't try to pin this crap on the Lord.

...and the Lord had NOTHING to do with the deadly-jab "urging" either.

[Shawn Henry]

Is that honest enough for you?

That is a lot better, and it is appreciated. Thanks!

[Shawn Henry]

I just have one account.

This is not though. Now you are back to purposeful misdirect. He didn't say you have 4 accounts, he said you are on your fourth.

[ransomme]

Saying that the Lord witnessed your lie is not taking the Lord's name in vain. This apparently is yet another thing that you have no understanding of.

Just look at how you lie, it's sad and I'm embarrassed for you. It seems like you just say whatever you want and claim that you already said it.
LDSW lie.1.JPG

I sincerely hope that you have people close to you that love you.

Man, you're piece of work.

Have you ever heard of context? What was I saying before I said that the temple had been completed?

Here's the first response I made to your claim that the church was rejected over failing to complete the Nauvoo temple.

The requirement was to build a temple with a baptismal font and move the ordinance of baptism for the dead into the temple. This was done before Joseph's death.

You are the one who is lying and making false accusations. End of story.

For your own sake, I suggest you stop it.

34 Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell. (2 Nephi 9)

Wow, you go back and forth to whatever suits you. Ok, now that you are going to push this point over the other ones, I hope you stick with it this time: even if you are grasping at straws. The ironic thing is that your point is narrow and misses the major portions of the point. You highlight a lesser part of the purpose; a part of the lesser priesthood. Do you not know the purpose of the Temple? Truthfully, your lack of respect for the House of the Lord and priesthood ordinances is astonishing for a TBM apologist.

The temple was for higher purposes, higher ordinances than only baptisms for the dead. They were instructed:
"38...to build a house in the land of promise, that those ordinances might be revealed which had been hid from before the world was...
39 for the beginning of the revelations and foundation of Zion, and for the glory, honor, and endowment of all her municipals, are ordained by the ordinance of my holy house, which my people are always commanded to build unto my holy name.
40 And verily I say unto you, let this house be built unto my name, that I may reveal mine ordinances therein unto my people;
41 For I deign to reveal unto my church things which have been kept hid from before the foundation of the world, things that pertain to the dispensation of the fulness of times.
42 And I will show unto my servant Joseph all things pertaining to this house, and the priesthood thereof..."

"44 If ye labor with all your might, I will consecrate that spot that it shall be made holy."
80% is not laboring with all one's might. unless you disagree. And this is precisely why 80% is not good enough...

It was meant to be a dwelling place, the House of the Lord, a Holy House where the Lord can teach and restore:
" 27...build a house to my name, for the Most High to dwell therein. 28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood."

Where the higher ordinances revealed by Joseph Smith in the Red Brick Store administered in the dedicated Nauvoo Temple?

Yes or no?

You can interpret what the Lord said for yourself. Obviously he had something in mind.

[ransomme]

Where the higher ordinances revealed by Joseph Smith in the Red Brick Store administered in the dedicated Nauvoo Temple?

This just opens up a whole new weakness in your argument. The Lord is quite clear that his House had to be built in order to reveal his ordinances, but the Red Brick store completely undermines that. Not only were they revealed in the Red Brick store, but they were carried out and executed there as well. Why stop at the 12 and the anointed quorum? If they could get their endowments there, why even have a temple? It clearly wasn't necessary. Is the temple for the masses and the Red Brick store for the elite?

Yeah and the several instances of Joseph telling them take their garnets off including instruction at least once to destroy them naked one go, hmmm

[ransomme]

You should stay posting under a new account, because you have trashed the reputation of this one.

I think he has already done this, if I'm reading old threads correctly.

He’s on his fourth account… that we know of.

You must have gotten under his skin, since he named himself after you

[ransomme]

In essence, I understand "true" to refer to priesthood authority, and "living" to mean continuing revelation to and direction through the Lord's servants.

How do you know if someone is truly serving God?
Isn’t talk cheap - “faith without works dead”?
By their fruits ye shall know them.

Deuteronomy 14:28-29 (conveniently ignored in lds curriculums) states that tithing collectors are to give at least 1/3 of TITHES to those in need. Christ asked those who can, to give much more.

While we are often pressured and shamed into giving “honest tithes,” church leaders keep money dark and secret, though Oaks did admit no tithes go to the poor. Funds intended for the poor go to the corporate empire of mormon leaders and we have no clue or say in how it’s spent. We do know the church had some fancy malls built, and a list of greedy wordly companies using the name of Jesus Christ in vain. Meanwhile, about 1,000,000,000 of our brothers and sisters are starving.

Grand ribon-cutting opening by for another mall built using the name of Jesus Christ...






Even if you designated fast offerings - the church leaders now say it’s their money and they can use it as they want...

You know i am getting really sick of this argument. Why didnt the lord save all the hungry starving people when he was alive and ministering?? He didnt even save all the people in each town he went too?? Why

How about you? Are there any hungry people on your street? Your city or county. If so seems like you arent doing your duty.

Stop being a hypocrite and casting stones as judas did complaining on how the lord spends his money.

I happen to think they are very good stewards.

I think that they can do whatever they want with it, and that they will have to give an account of it.

It's also why I've reevaluated how I tithe.

Personally, I don't think that promoting consumerism and Babylon is good use of tithing funds

[jreuben]

The church began to fall into apostasy circa 1890 and has continued to descend at a gradually accelerated pace since. Those who say Brigham Young and those that followed murdered brother Joseph are without fact or standing in this. Wilford Woordruff tried to play the devil at his own game and was killed by the luciferians in the end after, still with good intentions, but ultimately inadvertently leading the church into the wide and filthy path of babylon.

[ransomme]

The church began to fall into apostasy circa 1890 and has continued to descend at a gradually accelerated pace since. Those who say Brigham Young and those that followed murdered brother Joseph are without fact or standing in this. Wilford Woordruff tried to play the devil at his own game and was killed by the luciferians in the end after, still with good intentions, but ultimately inadvertently leading the church into the wide and filthy path of babylon.

As far as I can tell, it started in earnest with the secret chamber and spiritual wifey.

[Luke]

The church began to fall into apostasy circa 1890 and has continued to descend at a gradually accelerated pace since. Those who say Brigham Young and those that followed murdered brother Joseph are without fact or standing in this. Wilford Woordruff tried to play the devil at his own game and was killed by the luciferians in the end after, still with good intentions, but ultimately inadvertently leading the church into the wide and filthy path of babylon.

As far as I can tell, it started in earnest with the secret chamber and spiritual wifey.

When they abandoned polygamy… not when it was started.

[Reluctant Watchman]

You should stay posting under a new account, because you have trashed the reputation of this one.

I think he has already done this, if I'm reading old threads correctly.

He’s on his fourth account… that we know of.

You must have gotten under his skin, since he named himself after you

I can’t take any credit for his new name. He has a blog by that name that he created well before I joined the forum as RW.

I did find out (via private message) that he wasn’t too fond of my recent sarcastic comment about making up an acronym for his past names on the forum. Some people take this forum way too serious.

[LDS Watchman]

I just have one account.

This is not though. Now you are back to purposeful misdirect. He didn't say you have 4 accounts, he said you are on your fourth.

My previous accounts have all been rolled into one account. And you guys have no idea why I have had multiple accounts. It has nothing to do with being a "professional apologist."

If you want to know why the reason for why I have had multiple accounts over the years, send me a PM and I'll explain it.

[LDS Watchman]

Man, you're piece of work.

Have you ever heard of context? What was I saying before I said that the temple had been completed?

Here's the first response I made to your claim that the church was rejected over failing to complete the Nauvoo temple.



You are the one who is lying and making false accusations. End of story.

For your own sake, I suggest you stop it.

34 Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell. (2 Nephi 9)

Wow, you go back and forth to whatever suits you. Ok, now that you are going to push this point over the other ones, I hope you stick with it this time: even if you are grasping at straws. The ironic thing is that your point is narrow and misses the major portions of the point. You highlight a lesser part of the purpose; a part of the lesser priesthood. Do you not know the purpose of the Temple? Truthfully, your lack of respect for the House of the Lord and priesthood ordinances is astonishing for a TBM apologist.

The temple was for higher purposes, higher ordinances than only baptisms for the dead. They were instructed:
"38...to build a house in the land of promise, that those ordinances might be revealed which had been hid from before the world was...
39 for the beginning of the revelations and foundation of Zion, and for the glory, honor, and endowment of all her municipals, are ordained by the ordinance of my holy house, which my people are always commanded to build unto my holy name.
40 And verily I say unto you, let this house be built unto my name, that I may reveal mine ordinances therein unto my people;
41 For I deign to reveal unto my church things which have been kept hid from before the foundation of the world, things that pertain to the dispensation of the fulness of times.
42 And I will show unto my servant Joseph all things pertaining to this house, and the priesthood thereof..."

"44 If ye labor with all your might, I will consecrate that spot that it shall be made holy."
80% is not laboring with all one's might. unless you disagree. And this is precisely why 80% is not good enough...

It was meant to be a dwelling place, the House of the Lord, a Holy House where the Lord can teach and restore:
" 27...build a house to my name, for the Most High to dwell therein. 28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood."

Where the higher ordinances revealed by Joseph Smith in the Red Brick Store administered in the dedicated Nauvoo Temple?

Yes or no?

You can interpret what the Lord said for yourself. Obviously he had something in mind.

Why are you dodging the question?

Where the higher ordinances revealed by Joseph Smith in the Red Brick Store administered in the dedicated Nauvoo Temple?

Yes or no?

[LDS Watchman]

Where the higher ordinances revealed by Joseph Smith in the Red Brick Store administered in the dedicated Nauvoo Temple?

This just opens up a whole new weakness in your argument. The Lord is quite clear that his House had to be built in order to reveal his ordinances, but the Red Brick store completely undermines that. Not only were they revealed in the Red Brick store, but they were carried out and executed there as well. Why stop at the 12 and the anointed quorum? If they could get their endowments there, why even have a temple? It clearly wasn't necessary. Is the temple for the masses and the Red Brick store for the elite?

Does the Lord know the end from the beginning? Did he know that Joseph would be killed before the temple walls were more than halfway up? He most certainly did.

Just like he temporarily accepted baptisms for the dead outside of the temple, he temporarily allowed the endowment and sealings to be performed outside the temple until the temple could be completed and dedicated (which it was).

And in regards to the interior not being finished all of the way, this doesn't invalidate the temple or the ordinances that were adminstered once it was dedicated. The temple in Jerusalem in Jesus' day was still under construction, yet it was clearly accepted by the the Savior as legitimately being his Father's house with valid ordinances.

[ransomme]

Wow, you go back and forth to whatever suits you. Ok, now that you are going to push this point over the other ones, I hope you stick with it this time: even if you are grasping at straws. The ironic thing is that your point is narrow and misses the major portions of the point. You highlight a lesser part of the purpose; a part of the lesser priesthood. Do you not know the purpose of the Temple? Truthfully, your lack of respect for the House of the Lord and priesthood ordinances is astonishing for a TBM apologist.

The temple was for higher purposes, higher ordinances than only baptisms for the dead. They were instructed:
"38...to build a house in the land of promise, that those ordinances might be revealed which had been hid from before the world was...
39 for the beginning of the revelations and foundation of Zion, and for the glory, honor, and endowment of all her municipals, are ordained by the ordinance of my holy house, which my people are always commanded to build unto my holy name.
40 And verily I say unto you, let this house be built unto my name, that I may reveal mine ordinances therein unto my people;
41 For I deign to reveal unto my church things which have been kept hid from before the foundation of the world, things that pertain to the dispensation of the fulness of times.
42 And I will show unto my servant Joseph all things pertaining to this house, and the priesthood thereof..."

"44 If ye labor with all your might, I will consecrate that spot that it shall be made holy."
80% is not laboring with all one's might. unless you disagree. And this is precisely why 80% is not good enough...

It was meant to be a dwelling place, the House of the Lord, a Holy House where the Lord can teach and restore:
" 27...build a house to my name, for the Most High to dwell therein. 28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood."

Where the higher ordinances revealed by Joseph Smith in the Red Brick Store administered in the dedicated Nauvoo Temple?

Yes or no?

You can interpret what the Lord said for yourself. Obviously he had something in mind.

Why are you dodging the question?

Where the higher ordinances revealed by Joseph Smith in the Red Brick Store administered in the dedicated Nauvoo Temple?

Yes or no?

I am not dodging the question, but you ask the wrong question. A better question is was what Joseph Smith taught in the Red Brick everything that the Lord said he wanted to teach and do in His House?

Do you not take accept the Lord's word when He says plainly to build a House in His name because, "...there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood." (D&C 124:28)?

The Lord said to build a place, but they didn't. We have not fully received what he intended for us.