I'm confused;

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ransomme
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Re: I'm confused;

Post by ransomme »

cab wrote: October 29th, 2022, 12:27 am
LDS Watchman wrote: October 28th, 2022, 10:47 pm
HereWeGo wrote: October 28th, 2022, 9:03 pm
Nevervaxxed wrote: October 28th, 2022, 4:16 pm Thanks all, I can't even tell what "Art" is talking about in his last couple of posts, but it is obvious that he thinks being snide will win those of us struggling with the CHURCH, not the gospel of Christ, back. Does Art always have to be right, and get the last word? Seems that way...
Art, I get it, I need to pray. Thanks for the advice, and as I've already stated I have been and will continue to do so. I recommend you do likewise - you can never pray to much! But Art, you do not come across as caring or trying to help in any way. You come across as a judgmental and uncaring? Do you happen to be a lefty?? Perhaps so many on this board would find you more tolerable if you got off your high horse. Now, ate you humble enough to endure criticism? We shall see...
Welcome, Nevervaxxed. You have met one of the 5-6 diehard Church apologists now. Your assessment is pretty good. These posters are All Church, All Defense, All of the Time. You will immediately be able to recognize them when you meet them. Some people call them Trolls because of their debating techniques--judgmental, confrontational, have to have the last word, derail the discussion if it isn't going their way, etc. The best way to deal with them when they become this way is to just ignore their posts and don't respond to them. It only feeds them and they will continue with their tactics until you feel crazy or begin to ignore them. Some here think they are paid Church Employees. They act like Jesus needs someone to defend His church against anyone who isn't repeating the Church talking points. Their eyes are not open yet.

Most of us on here were true blue Mormons for most of our lives. We started waking up like you and went through the same things you are experiencing. We understand the few Apologists here because we were once like them. The Apologists cant understand the rest of us because they lack experience with going through what we have gone through. Many of us pray that their eyes may be opened but know that unless they are open to the possibility that they have been deceived, they will not see.

Let the Spirit help you to listen to the people who will help you with your journey. Stay close to the Lord. Seek his direct guidance.
This is a very inaccurate and unfair breakdown of the "apologists."

I can't speak for everyone else who defends the church, but I most definitely have been were many of those of you who are now very critical of the church and it's leaders are.

But the more I studied, the more I realized that things are not nearly as bad as what all of the angry and bitter voices on the internet would have me believe. The church is still the Lord's one and only true church, warts and all. The Lord still expects us to keep the covenants we have made with him in the temple.

As for the "all defense all the time" charge, the vast majority of attacks against the church on this forum are either completely outrageous and false or alternatively blown way out of proportion. I try to be a voice of reason to help keep people from being led astray as best as I can. And I know what I'm talking about because I was once just like many of you and it wasn't very long ago. And if you don't believe me, I would suggest that you read my posts from when I first came on this forum.

But when people are bitter and angry they see what they want to see I guess. I don't expect that I will change the minds of the most ardent critics of the church on here. I post mainly for lurkers and those who are on the fence. And I understand that my efforts are frustrating for the die hard critics who are trying to convert people to their point of view or who would like this forum to be an echo chamber of constant criticism of the church.
Interesting. You are a rare data point.

I know, for me personally, I can not unsee what I have seen. And I could never deny what I believe the Lord has shown me about where we are as a people. And I’d never want to unsee it, for my relationship with and understanding of Him and His purposes has blossomed as a result.

I’ll be dead honest. I don’t know anyone who has begun to see the problematic aspects of our history and current day floundering in light of the cyclical nature of scriptural apostasy cycles and been able to revert back to believe the simplistic “one and only true church” narrative, while staying honest with themselves and others.

True, most that begin to have their shelf broken end up throwing away everything…. But that’s just because their foundation was sandy in the first place….

My question for most people is this…. Why do we deal in such extremes? Why do we, as a people, somehow think all is lost if this institution fails to be the “one and only true church”? Do we not see another explanation in light of all the people who fell short in ages past?
For me or seems like business as usual, the Lord's people falling short. This is why we need the Savior. It also pushed me to not be complacent and to seek and ask in an attempt to grow. I also see that there is a prophesied hope and I look towards that brighter day.

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Re: I'm confused;

Post by LDS Watchman »

cab wrote: October 29th, 2022, 12:27 am
I know, for me personally, I can not unsee what I have seen. And I could never deny what I believe the Lord has shown me about where we are as a people. And I’d never want to unsee it, for my relationship with and understanding of Him and His purposes has blossomed as a result.
For me it's really not a matter of "unseeing what I have seen" or "denying what I believe the Lord has shown me about where we are as a people." For me it's about continuing to seek and search and recognizing that the way I interpreted things I've seen or think I've been shown was flawed because I was working under incomplete information and influenced by the conclusions of others.

It's really no different then how you would view a TBM "waking up" to your perspective. Would you consider such a person to be unseeing the good fruits they've seen in the church or denying what they believe the Lord had previously shown them about the church being his one true church? No, of course not. You would say that they had previously been working under incomplete information and were heavily influenced by the teachings and beliefs of others, but are now beginning to see things more clearly, right?
cab wrote: October 29th, 2022, 12:27 am I’ll be dead honest. I don’t know anyone who has begun to see the problematic aspects of our history and current day floundering in light of the cyclical nature of scriptural apostasy cycles and been able to revert back to believe the simplistic “one and only true church” narrative, while staying honest with themselves and others.
I definitely haven't reverted back to looking at the church in the simplistic way I did before I woke up 7 years ago. But the "one and only true church" narrative is nevertheless true. If the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith are true, then The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's one and all true church upon the face of the whole earth.

Or alternatively, if it has been completely rejected by God and is no longer his church, then we're back in the same state as we were in during the Great Apostasy, where all churches are false and no one has any authority to administer the ordinances of the gospel. In my opinion this second option, really isn't an option if the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith are true. And if the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith aren't true, then this is all a mute point because we'd be contending over a false religion to begin with.
cab wrote: October 29th, 2022, 12:27 am True, most that begin to have their shelf broken end up throwing away everything…. But that’s just because their foundation was sandy in the first place….
I don't think that those who end up throwing away everything necessarily had their foundation built on sand in the first place. I think Satan is just really good at what he does. Deception and personal apostasy are real and all too common. This has been the case since the beginning of time.

And I would argue that the person who spends all day blasting the church and many of the true teachings of God, but still professes a belief in Christ and some of his teachings, isn't much better than those who have thrown everything away. Just look at the apostates in Joseph Smith's day. They all still professed a belief in Christ as they blasted Joseph Smith for being a false or fallen prophet. And I might add that there were quite a few people who apostitized to one degree or another who came back to believing in the truthfulness of the restored gospel and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord's one true church.
cab wrote: October 29th, 2022, 12:27 am My question for most people is this…. Why do we deal in such extremes? Why do we, as a people, somehow think all is lost if this institution fails to be the “one and only true church”? Do we not see another explanation in light of all the people who fell short in ages past?
A guess my question for you would be why the Lord deals in such extremes? It's not like people just made up the idea that there is only one true church and that this is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This is what the Lord said. And he has never said that this has changed.

This doesn't mean that church hasn't fallen short and that there aren't serious problems within the church, most notably the rampant worldliness and lack of true commitment to Christ from so many of the members. But falling short, doesn't equal failing.

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cab
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Re: I'm confused;

Post by cab »

LDS Watchman wrote: October 29th, 2022, 6:54 am
cab wrote: October 29th, 2022, 12:27 am
I know, for me personally, I can not unsee what I have seen. And I could never deny what I believe the Lord has shown me about where we are as a people. And I’d never want to unsee it, for my relationship with and understanding of Him and His purposes has blossomed as a result.
For me it's really not a matter of "unseeing what I have seen" or "denying what I believe the Lord has shown me about where we are as a people." For me it's about continuing to seek and search and recognizing that the way I interpreted things I've seen or think I've been shown was flawed because I was working under incomplete information and influenced by the conclusions of others.

It's really no different then how you would view a TBM "waking up" to your perspective. Would you consider such a person to be unseeing the good fruits they've seen in the church or denying what they believe the Lord had previously shown them about the church being his one true church? No, of course not. You would say that they had previously been working under incomplete information and were heavily influenced by the teachings and beliefs of others, but are now beginning to see things more clearly, right?
cab wrote: October 29th, 2022, 12:27 am I’ll be dead honest. I don’t know anyone who has begun to see the problematic aspects of our history and current day floundering in light of the cyclical nature of scriptural apostasy cycles and been able to revert back to believe the simplistic “one and only true church” narrative, while staying honest with themselves and others.
I definitely haven't reverted back to looking at the church in the simplistic way I did before I woke up 7 years ago. But the "one and only true church" narrative is nevertheless true. If the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith are true, then The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's one and all true church upon the face of the whole earth.

Or alternatively, if it has been completely rejected by God and is no longer his church, then we're back in the same state as we were in during the Great Apostasy, where all churches are false and no one has any authority to administer the ordinances of the gospel. In my opinion this second option, really isn't an option if the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith are true. And if the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith aren't true, then this is all a mute point because we'd be contending over a false religion to begin with.
cab wrote: October 29th, 2022, 12:27 am True, most that begin to have their shelf broken end up throwing away everything…. But that’s just because their foundation was sandy in the first place….
I don't think that those who end up throwing away everything necessarily had their foundation built on sand in the first place. I think Satan is just really good at what he does. Deception and personal apostasy are real and all too common. This has been the case since the beginning of time.

And I would argue that the person who spends all day blasting the church and many of the true teachings of God, but still professes a belief in Christ and some of his teachings, isn't much better than those who have thrown everything away. Just look at the apostates in Joseph Smith's day. They all still professed a belief in Christ as they blasted Joseph Smith for being a false or fallen prophet. And I might add that there were quite a few people who apostitized to one degree or another who came back to believing in the truthfulness of the restored gospel and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord's one true church.
cab wrote: October 29th, 2022, 12:27 am My question for most people is this…. Why do we deal in such extremes? Why do we, as a people, somehow think all is lost if this institution fails to be the “one and only true church”? Do we not see another explanation in light of all the people who fell short in ages past?
A guess my question for you would be why the Lord deals in such extremes? It's not like people just made up the idea that there is only one true church and that this is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This is what the Lord said. And he has never said that this has changed.

This doesn't mean that church hasn't fallen short and that there aren't serious problems within the church, most notably the rampant worldliness and lack of true commitment to Christ from so many of the members. But falling short, doesn't equal failing.

I'm not going to go back and forth with you on this. Your path is your path and you seem to be a rare data point. The only thing I'll directly address is that I take serious exception with your last statement. Where do you believe the Lord declared that the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS to be the one and only true church?

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Re: I'm confused;

Post by LDS Watchman »

cab wrote: October 29th, 2022, 7:11 am
I'm not going to go back and forth with you on this.
I don't expect you to go back and forth with me. You expressed a serious misunderstanding of my beliefs and position by suggesting that because my perspective has changed from being similar to yours to being less so, that I'm unseeing what I have seen, denying what I believe the Lord has shown me, and reverting back to my previously held overly simplistic views.

None of this the case.

If you don't really care to understand my perspective and what I believe and why I believe it, that's fine. I don't expect you to. But when you misrepresent it and try to make me out to be some anomaly who has chosen to put his head back in the sand, I feel inclined to set the record straight.

And I really think that if you are interested in the truth and open to new information, that you should take a long hard look at my perspective and the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith I support it with, instead of writing me off as an anomaly. But that's up to you.
cab wrote: October 29th, 2022, 7:11 am The only thing I'll directly address is that I take serious exception with your last statement. Where do you believe the Lord declared that the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS to be the one and only true church?
1 The rise of the Church of Christ in these last days, being one thousand eight hundred and thirty years since the coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the flesh, it being regularly organized and established agreeable to the laws of our country, by the will and commandments of God, in the fourth month, and on the sixth day of the month which is called April (D&C 20)

29 And after having received the record of the Nephites, yea, even my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., might have power to translate through the mercy of God, by the power of God, the Book of Mormon.
30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually
(D&C 1)

3 And also unto my faithful servants who are of the high council of my church in Zion, for thus it shall be called, and unto all the elders and people of my Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, scattered abroad in all the world;
4 For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
.(D&C 115)

These declarations about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints being the Lord's one true church are quite plain. The Lord has never rescinded what he declared nor redefined what he meant by his church in the last days. All references to the Lord's church in the last days, of which there are many, must be viewed in the context of these declarations by the Lord and the similar declarations made by Joseph Smith.

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cab
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Re: I'm confused;

Post by cab »

LDS Watchman wrote: October 29th, 2022, 7:51 am
cab wrote: October 29th, 2022, 7:11 am
I'm not going to go back and forth with you on this.
I don't expect you to go back and forth with me. You expressed a serious misunderstanding of my beliefs and position by suggesting that because my perspective has changed from being similar to yours to being less so, that I'm unseeing what I have seen, denying what I believe the Lord has shown me, and reverting back to my previously held overly simplistic views.

None of this the case.

If you don't really care to understand my perspective and what I believe and why I believe it, that's fine. I don't expect you to. But when you misrepresent it and try to make me out to be some anomaly who has chosen to put his head back in the sand, I feel inclined to set the record straight.

And I really think that if you are interested in the truth and open to new information, that you should take a long hard look at my perspective and the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith I support it with, instead of writing me off as an anomaly. But that's up to you.
cab wrote: October 29th, 2022, 7:11 am The only thing I'll directly address is that I take serious exception with your last statement. Where do you believe the Lord declared that the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS to be the one and only true church?
1 The rise of the Church of Christ in these last days, being one thousand eight hundred and thirty years since the coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the flesh, it being regularly organized and established agreeable to the laws of our country, by the will and commandments of God, in the fourth month, and on the sixth day of the month which is called April (D&C 20)

29 And after having received the record of the Nephites, yea, even my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., might have power to translate through the mercy of God, by the power of God, the Book of Mormon.
30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually
(D&C 1)

3 And also unto my faithful servants who are of the high council of my church in Zion, for thus it shall be called, and unto all the elders and people of my Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, scattered abroad in all the world;
4 For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
.(D&C 115)

These declarations about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints being the Lord's one true church are quite plain. The Lord has never rescinded what he declared nor redefined what he meant by his church in the last days. All references to the Lord's church in the last days, of which there are many, must be viewed in the context of these declarations by the Lord and the similar declarations made by Joseph Smith.
That’s very fair. And I truly didn’t mean to accuse you of sticking your head in the sand. I sincerely meant to say that I currently know zero people that have gotten to where I’m at, and then been able to go back to their previous held perspective about the church being “true”…. In my view, the “true church” idea is very full of nuance and widely misunderstood….

For example in D&C 1, it’s clear (to me) that this was not a pronouncement of what had happened, but rather an invitation for the church to come out of the obscurity and put on “the beautiful garments” of the true church. But in no way a pronouncement that it had achieved this status indefinitely…

As you could, I could likewise share countless scriptures of why I believe the apostasy of the Gentile church set up by Joseph was both a possibility and even a likely outcome…. And I’m sure you have seen all of those. Likewise I’m sure I’ve seen all quotes by Joseph, or attributed to Joseph, and scriptures that you would share with me.

That’s where I don’t want to go back and forth…

I am however interested in your own personal story, and how you were able to overcome but you have seen in order to keep your confidence in the church…. That, my friend, is where you seem anomalous to me…
I am very open to new perspectives… That’s what’s got me in the pickle I find myself today ha ha

I won’t have much more time today to post… I have an unbelievably crazy day with the kids and my wife is out of town…. And I worked the night shift last night…. But I’ll circle back when I can

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Re: I'm confused;

Post by Artaxerxes »

ransomme wrote: October 29th, 2022, 5:31 am
Artaxerxes wrote: October 28th, 2022, 11:04 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: October 28th, 2022, 9:21 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: October 28th, 2022, 7:48 pm Fullness completeness. Without one of the ordinances, they were incomplete. As it says. Pretty darn clearly.
No that's just dumb! The fulness of the priesthood is the Melchizidek Priesthood.

The loss of the priesthood is also in section 113.

He had reference to those whom God should call in the last days, who should hold the power of priesthood to bring again Zion, and the redemption of Israel; and to put on her strength is to put on the authority of the priesthood, which she, Zion, has a right to by lineage; also to return to that power which she had lost.

What sense does it make to lose an Aaronic priesthood ordinance while keeping the MP ones? That make do damn sense!
Nope. The word fullness in the scriptures comes from pleroma, which doesn't mean what you claim at all.
https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicon ... eroma.html

It makes sense for the exact reason that Section 124 says. I don't know why you keep looking outside of it. It says perfectly clearly what was lost, why it was lost, and how they can get it back.
The fulness of the priesthood its not what you are promoting.

We are in the wilderness.

JST Genesis 14:25-32
D&C 76:54,67,71,94,102
D&C 84:23-27
D&C 121:39-46
The oath of the priesthood

"If a man gets a fullness of the priesthood of God, he has to get it in the same way that Jesus Christ obtained it, and that was by keeping all the commandments and obeying all the ordinances of the house of the Lord." (History of the Church, 5:423-424, also teachings, p.308)
Yeah. Keep the commandments and you'll be fine. You don't need to worry about other people.

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David13
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Re: I'm confused;

Post by David13 »

Artaxerxes wrote: October 27th, 2022, 5:10 pm
Nevervaxxed wrote: October 27th, 2022, 4:39 pm I have been active LDS virtually my entire life. I've been in Bishoprics, been YM Pres, EQ Pres, High Councilman, etc... but when the 1st presidency began urging membership to get the clot shot, followed by many of the brethren declaring these killer jabs as "safe & effective", I was deeply disturbed, and it's only gotteen worse, especially as I've seen friends and family die and/or have serious health problems from them. Since then, my eyes have been opened, and I'm more confused than ever. It seems like a lot of if not most of church h leadership have become "woke". We seen large donations of tithes and offerings going to woke (Satanic) organizations like the UN. I hear brethren basically regurgitating leftist talking points, especially about non-existent "racism", such as what happened at BYU Women's volleyball, where none of what was accussed happened. I'm bewildered. Things about the church that never bothered me before are now very disconcerting, such as the similarities between our temple ordinances & signs and the Masonic lodge. Now I'm seeing multiple accusations toward the church as being part of a CIA mind control program called Monarch, and accusations of long term physical and serial abuse of children as part of this program. I'm hearing about the "Left hand of God" within the LDS church, and many of those making the allegations don't appear to have much to gain by doing so. I'm truly confused.

While I still have a strong testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as of right now I have zero faith in the church as an organization. Has the church h "fallen"? If so, how long ago? Or are many of the leaders being deceived? Am I being deceived? How can I pay tithes that are given to satanic organization?

Bottom line; it is indeed a hard time, where evil is declared good, and vice versa. I'm hoping joining this forum and listening to those on this board can help me find peace, whether in the church, or outside it but still within the gospel of Christ.
It sounds like the church hasn't changed, but you have. That happens to lots of folk. If the Lord told you before that this was His church, then it still is. If He hasn't, then you need to ask if it is.

Not only has the church changed, it continues to change on a daily basis.
dc

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David13
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Re: I'm confused;

Post by David13 »

EmmaLee wrote: October 28th, 2022, 5:48 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: October 28th, 2022, 4:51 pm I'm a conservative.

Governor He/Him Caillou Cocks, Egg McMuffin, and Mitt Delecto Romney claim to be "conservative", too. All liars and pretenders, of course.

"Well, I'm a conservative, ... but ... "
dc

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Chip
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Re: I'm confused;

Post by Chip »

Artaxerxes wrote: October 28th, 2022, 11:54 am
Chip wrote: October 27th, 2022, 10:15 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: October 27th, 2022, 5:10 pm
Nevervaxxed wrote: October 27th, 2022, 4:39 pm I have been active LDS virtually my entire life. I've been in Bishoprics, been YM Pres, EQ Pres, High Councilman, etc... but when the 1st presidency began urging membership to get the clot shot, followed by many of the brethren declaring these killer jabs as "safe & effective", I was deeply disturbed, and it's only gotteen worse, especially as I've seen friends and family die and/or have serious health problems from them. Since then, my eyes have been opened, and I'm more confused than ever. It seems like a lot of if not most of church h leadership have become "woke". We seen large donations of tithes and offerings going to woke (Satanic) organizations like the UN. I hear brethren basically regurgitating leftist talking points, especially about non-existent "racism", such as what happened at BYU Women's volleyball, where none of what was accussed happened. I'm bewildered. Things about the church that never bothered me before are now very disconcerting, such as the similarities between our temple ordinances & signs and the Masonic lodge. Now I'm seeing multiple accusations toward the church as being part of a CIA mind control program called Monarch, and accusations of long term physical and serial abuse of children as part of this program. I'm hearing about the "Left hand of God" within the LDS church, and many of those making the allegations don't appear to have much to gain by doing so. I'm truly confused.

While I still have a strong testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as of right now I have zero faith in the church as an organization. Has the church h "fallen"? If so, how long ago? Or are many of the leaders being deceived? Am I being deceived? How can I pay tithes that are given to satanic organization?

Bottom line; it is indeed a hard time, where evil is declared good, and vice versa. I'm hoping joining this forum and listening to those on this board can help me find peace, whether in the church, or outside it but still within the gospel of Christ.
It sounds like the church hasn't changed, but you have. That happens to lots of folk. If the Lord told you before that this was His church, then it still is. If He hasn't, then you need to ask if it is.

Nevervaxxed, beware of this troll. He/she/it is downright evil much of the time. Don't let its words cause you to second-guess your instincts.
Yes, just keep going with your feelings and don't pray about it.

I certainly appreciate you fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah 5:20.

It's curious that both you and Subcomandante have accused me of fulfilling Isaiah 5:20:

Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter.


The two of you are the most wilful frustrators of truth on this forum. It's like you're continuously channeling the minds of the $#!%libs at MSNBC. All that rancorous noise is going to come to an abrupt end at some point in the future. Sensible people are looking forward to that day.

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HereWeGo
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Re: I'm confused;

Post by HereWeGo »

LDS Watchman wrote: October 28th, 2022, 10:47 pm
HereWeGo wrote: October 28th, 2022, 9:03 pm
Nevervaxxed wrote: October 28th, 2022, 4:16 pm Thanks all, I can't even tell what "Art" is talking about in his last couple of posts, but it is obvious that he thinks being snide will win those of us struggling with the CHURCH, not the gospel of Christ, back. Does Art always have to be right, and get the last word? Seems that way...
Art, I get it, I need to pray. Thanks for the advice, and as I've already stated I have been and will continue to do so. I recommend you do likewise - you can never pray to much! But Art, you do not come across as caring or trying to help in any way. You come across as a judgmental and uncaring? Do you happen to be a lefty?? Perhaps so many on this board would find you more tolerable if you got off your high horse. Now, ate you humble enough to endure criticism? We shall see...
Welcome, Nevervaxxed. You have met one of the 5-6 diehard Church apologists now. Your assessment is pretty good. These posters are All Church, All Defense, All of the Time. You will immediately be able to recognize them when you meet them. Some people call them Trolls because of their debating techniques--judgmental, confrontational, have to have the last word, derail the discussion if it isn't going their way, etc. The best way to deal with them when they become this way is to just ignore their posts and don't respond to them. It only feeds them and they will continue with their tactics until you feel crazy or begin to ignore them. Some here think they are paid Church Employees. They act like Jesus needs someone to defend His church against anyone who isn't repeating the Church talking points. Their eyes are not open yet.

Most of us on here were true blue Mormons for most of our lives. We started waking up like you and went through the same things you are experiencing. We understand the few Apologists here because we were once like them. The Apologists cant understand the rest of us because they lack experience with going through what we have gone through. Many of us pray that their eyes may be opened but know that unless they are open to the possibility that they have been deceived, they will not see.

Let the Spirit help you to listen to the people who will help you with your journey. Stay close to the Lord. Seek his direct guidance.
This is a very inaccurate and unfair breakdown of the "apologists."

I can't speak for everyone else who defends the church, but I most definitely have been were many of those of you who are now very critical of the church and it's leaders are.

But the more I studied, the more I realized that things are not nearly as bad as what all of the angry and bitter voices on the internet would have me believe. The church is still the Lord's one and only true church, warts and all. The Lord still expects us to keep the covenants we have made with him in the temple.

As for the "all defense all the time" charge, the vast majority of attacks against the church on this forum are either completely outrageous and false or alternatively blown way out of proportion. I try to be a voice of reason to help keep people from being led astray as best as I can. And I know what I'm talking about because I was once just like many of you and it wasn't very long ago. And if you don't believe me, I would suggest that you read my posts from when I first came on this forum.

But when people are bitter and angry they see what they want to see I guess. I don't expect that I will change the minds of the most ardent critics of the church on here. I post mainly for lurkers and those who are on the fence. And I understand that my efforts are frustrating for the die hard critics who are trying to convert people to their point of view or who would like this forum to be an echo chamber of constant criticism of the church.
Thank you for your kind response. I appreciate it when people with an apposing view can express it without being rude or confrontive.

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ransomme
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Re: I'm confused;

Post by ransomme »

Artaxerxes wrote: October 29th, 2022, 9:33 am
ransomme wrote: October 29th, 2022, 5:31 am
Artaxerxes wrote: October 28th, 2022, 11:04 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: October 28th, 2022, 9:21 pm
No that's just dumb! The fulness of the priesthood is the Melchizidek Priesthood.

The loss of the priesthood is also in section 113.

He had reference to those whom God should call in the last days, who should hold the power of priesthood to bring again Zion, and the redemption of Israel; and to put on her strength is to put on the authority of the priesthood, which she, Zion, has a right to by lineage; also to return to that power which she had lost.

What sense does it make to lose an Aaronic priesthood ordinance while keeping the MP ones? That make do damn sense!
Nope. The word fullness in the scriptures comes from pleroma, which doesn't mean what you claim at all.
https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicon ... eroma.html

It makes sense for the exact reason that Section 124 says. I don't know why you keep looking outside of it. It says perfectly clearly what was lost, why it was lost, and how they can get it back.
The fulness of the priesthood is not what you are promoting.

We are in the wilderness.

JST Genesis 14:25-32
D&C 76:54,67,71,94,102
D&C 84:23-27
D&C 121:39-46
The oath of the priesthood

"If a man gets a fullness of the priesthood of God, he has to get it in the same way that Jesus Christ obtained it, and that was by keeping all the commandments and obeying all the ordinances of the house of the Lord." (History of the Church, 5:423-424, also teachings, p.308)
Yeah. Keep the commandments and you'll be fine. You don't need to worry about other people.
Ok, so you are promoting the way of Cain? "Am I my brother’s keeper?"

For clarity's sake, I desire to understand and for other people to understand truth. What you have said above about what was lost and the fullness of the priesthood does not seem to be correct. Adding more credence to what Shawn Henry and I had put forward here, see what Joseph Smith in his journal said on the first day he was, "...instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of the Melchisedek Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the Ancient of Days, and all those plans and principles by which any one is enabled to secure the fullness of those blessings which have been prepared for the Church of the First Born, and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim in the eternal worlds. In this council was instituted the ancient order of things for the first time in these last days." - Joseph Smith, May 4, 1842

So reading what Joseph said here in context with these verses, things come more into focus (call me a skeptic, but I have doubts that you read them):

JST Genesis 14:25-32
D&C 76:54,67,71,94,102
D&C 84:23-27
D&C 113:7-8
D&C 121:39-46
The oath of the priesthood

Nevervaxxed
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Re: I'm confused;

Post by Nevervaxxed »

Just a clarification of my perspective; I am here on this forum to learn; most of my closest friends are STILL members of the church, and virtually every person that I hold in high esteem are members. These are people I love and trust. I hold zero anger or bitterness toward the church, and I can understand, from a logical perspective, why the brethren have made some of the decisions they've made - but I can't see how the savior would have made or been supportive of those decisions. Our savior ALWAYS stood against the "powers that be", regardless of consequence. "Do what is right let the consequence follow". What happened to that principle??

I am heart sick right now, not bitter. I have zero desire to leave the church, but I can't in good faith continue to support a church that IS supporting the Satanic overthrow of our beloved nation, founded "UNDER GOD". What is my OP "Subject"? "I'm confused"!! I'm trying to find my way to what God wants me to do. I'm truly torn in half. For now, I've stopped attending church and paying tithing, but I miss my friends and fellowship with the church. I'm heart sick, but NOT bitter nor angry. I just want the truth. And I'm doing everything I can do to find it. And that includes a lot of prayer. So far, I don't feel I've made the wrong decision to stop supporting this woke church, with all that implies...

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ransomme
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Posts: 4013

Re: I'm confused;

Post by ransomme »

Nevervaxxed wrote: October 30th, 2022, 6:41 am Just a clarification of my perspective; I am here on this forum to learn; most of my closest friends are STILL members of the church, and virtually every person that I hold in high esteem are members. These are people I love and trust. I hold zero anger or bitterness toward the church, and I can understand, from a logical perspective, why the brethren have made some of the decisions they've made - but I can't see how the savior would have made or been supportive of those decisions. Our savior ALWAYS stood against the "powers that be", regardless of consequence. "Do what is right let the consequence follow". What happened to that principle??

I am heart sick right now, not bitter. I have zero desire to leave the church, but I can't in good faith continue to support a church that IS supporting the Satanic overthrow of our beloved nation, founded "UNDER GOD". What is my OP "Subject"? "I'm confused"!! I'm trying to find my way to what God wants me to do. I'm truly torn in half. For now, I've stopped attending church and paying tithing, but I miss my friends and fellowship with the church. I'm heart sick, but NOT bitter nor angry. I just want the truth. And I'm doing everything I can do to find it. And that includes a lot of prayer. So far, I don't feel I've made the wrong decision to stop supporting this woke church, with all that implies...
Well my heart goes out to you. You definitely aren't alone.

I would say that fellowshipping
with and attending your local congregation is still a good idea. After all you can't practice the Gospel of Jesus Christ in a vacuum. And look at the Saviors example, despite the ancient Jewish Church being in apostasy he still would teach in their synagogues. In fact, in all ages and places where the Lord's Church was in apostasy generally, faithful members still existed and did what they could in service of their God and themselves. Remember that you still need to progress and move forward. So find ways to not become stagnant and regress.

As far as tithing, I would considering paying directly to those in need. Pray for opportunities. I'm my experience God will send them if you desire.

Your brother in Christ

LDS Watchman
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Re: I'm confused;

Post by LDS Watchman »

Nevervaxxed wrote: October 30th, 2022, 6:41 am Just a clarification of my perspective; I am here on this forum to learn; most of my closest friends are STILL members of the church, and virtually every person that I hold in high esteem are members. These are people I love and trust. I hold zero anger or bitterness toward the church, and I can understand, from a logical perspective, why the brethren have made some of the decisions they've made - but I can't see how the savior would have made or been supportive of those decisions. Our savior ALWAYS stood against the "powers that be", regardless of consequence. "Do what is right let the consequence follow". What happened to that principle??

I am heart sick right now, not bitter. I have zero desire to leave the church, but I can't in good faith continue to support a church that IS supporting the Satanic overthrow of our beloved nation, founded "UNDER GOD". What is my OP "Subject"? "I'm confused"!! I'm trying to find my way to what God wants me to do. I'm truly torn in half. For now, I've stopped attending church and paying tithing, but I miss my friends and fellowship with the church. I'm heart sick, but NOT bitter nor angry. I just want the truth. And I'm doing everything I can do to find it. And that includes a lot of prayer. So far, I don't feel I've made the wrong decision to stop supporting this woke church, with all that implies...
Jesus said to render unto Cesaer what is Cesaer's and that his kingdom was not of this world. There is no record of him challenging the authority and policies of Rome or the 'powers that be.'

My advice is to go back to church and pay your tithing while you work things out. You'll feel a lot better.

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ransomme
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Re: I'm confused;

Post by ransomme »

LDS Watchman wrote: October 30th, 2022, 7:11 am
Nevervaxxed wrote: October 30th, 2022, 6:41 am Just a clarification of my perspective; I am here on this forum to learn; most of my closest friends are STILL members of the church, and virtually every person that I hold in high esteem are members. These are people I love and trust. I hold zero anger or bitterness toward the church, and I can understand, from a logical perspective, why the brethren have made some of the decisions they've made - but I can't see how the savior would have made or been supportive of those decisions. Our savior ALWAYS stood against the "powers that be", regardless of consequence. "Do what is right let the consequence follow". What happened to that principle??

I am heart sick right now, not bitter. I have zero desire to leave the church, but I can't in good faith continue to support a church that IS supporting the Satanic overthrow of our beloved nation, founded "UNDER GOD". What is my OP "Subject"? "I'm confused"!! I'm trying to find my way to what God wants me to do. I'm truly torn in half. For now, I've stopped attending church and paying tithing, but I miss my friends and fellowship with the church. I'm heart sick, but NOT bitter nor angry. I just want the truth. And I'm doing everything I can do to find it. And that includes a lot of prayer. So far, I don't feel I've made the wrong decision to stop supporting this woke church, with all that implies...
Jesus said to render unto Cesaer what is Cesaer's and that his kingdom was not of this world. There is no record of him challenging the authority and policies of Rome or the 'powers that be.'

My advice is to go back to church and pay your tithing while you work things out. You'll feel a lot better.
Yes Jesus after all picked Matthew as a disciple. He must have supported his work as a tax collector.

Not to mention that is a very shallow interpretation of render unto Cesar what is Cesar's.

This is a good start
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Re: I'm confused;

Post by LDS Watchman »

ransomme wrote: October 30th, 2022, 7:43 am
LDS Watchman wrote: October 30th, 2022, 7:11 am
Nevervaxxed wrote: October 30th, 2022, 6:41 am Just a clarification of my perspective; I am here on this forum to learn; most of my closest friends are STILL members of the church, and virtually every person that I hold in high esteem are members. These are people I love and trust. I hold zero anger or bitterness toward the church, and I can understand, from a logical perspective, why the brethren have made some of the decisions they've made - but I can't see how the savior would have made or been supportive of those decisions. Our savior ALWAYS stood against the "powers that be", regardless of consequence. "Do what is right let the consequence follow". What happened to that principle??

I am heart sick right now, not bitter. I have zero desire to leave the church, but I can't in good faith continue to support a church that IS supporting the Satanic overthrow of our beloved nation, founded "UNDER GOD". What is my OP "Subject"? "I'm confused"!! I'm trying to find my way to what God wants me to do. I'm truly torn in half. For now, I've stopped attending church and paying tithing, but I miss my friends and fellowship with the church. I'm heart sick, but NOT bitter nor angry. I just want the truth. And I'm doing everything I can do to find it. And that includes a lot of prayer. So far, I don't feel I've made the wrong decision to stop supporting this woke church, with all that implies...
Jesus said to render unto Cesaer what is Cesaer's and that his kingdom was not of this world. There is no record of him challenging the authority and policies of Rome or the 'powers that be.'

My advice is to go back to church and pay your tithing while you work things out. You'll feel a lot better.
Yes Jesus after all picked Matthew as a disciple. He must have supported his work as a tax collector.

Not to mention that is a very shallow interpretation of render unto Cesar what is Cesar's.

This is a good start
Let's not move the goal posts. I didn't say that Christ supported everything Cesar and the Romans were doing. But he there's no evidence whatsoever that he "stood against" them and encouraged others to flaunt what they were requiring them to do.

Artaxerxes
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2298

Re: I'm confused;

Post by Artaxerxes »

ransomme wrote: October 30th, 2022, 5:55 am
Artaxerxes wrote: October 29th, 2022, 9:33 am
ransomme wrote: October 29th, 2022, 5:31 am
Artaxerxes wrote: October 28th, 2022, 11:04 pm

Nope. The word fullness in the scriptures comes from pleroma, which doesn't mean what you claim at all.
https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicon ... eroma.html

It makes sense for the exact reason that Section 124 says. I don't know why you keep looking outside of it. It says perfectly clearly what was lost, why it was lost, and how they can get it back.
The fulness of the priesthood is not what you are promoting.

We are in the wilderness.

JST Genesis 14:25-32
D&C 76:54,67,71,94,102
D&C 84:23-27
D&C 121:39-46
The oath of the priesthood

"If a man gets a fullness of the priesthood of God, he has to get it in the same way that Jesus Christ obtained it, and that was by keeping all the commandments and obeying all the ordinances of the house of the Lord." (History of the Church, 5:423-424, also teachings, p.308)
Yeah. Keep the commandments and you'll be fine. You don't need to worry about other people.
Ok, so you are promoting the way of Cain? "Am I my brother’s keeper?"

For clarity's sake, I desire to understand and for other people to understand truth. What you have said above about what was lost and the fullness of the priesthood does not seem to be correct. Adding more credence to what Shawn Henry and I had put forward here, see what Joseph Smith in his journal said on the first day he was, "...instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of the Melchisedek Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the Ancient of Days, and all those plans and principles by which any one is enabled to secure the fullness of those blessings which have been prepared for the Church of the First Born, and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim in the eternal worlds. In this council was instituted the ancient order of things for the first time in these last days." - Joseph Smith, May 4, 1842

So reading what Joseph said here in context with these verses, things come more into focus (call me a skeptic, but I have doubts that you read them):

JST Genesis 14:25-32
D&C 76:54,67,71,94,102
D&C 84:23-27
D&C 113:7-8
D&C 121:39-46
The oath of the priesthood
That isn't what I said. We should certainly help others. But other people's unrighteousness isn't on us.

No, that quote is exactly what I'm talking about. The fullness/completeness/being filled up that is meant by the scriptural use of pleroma does not mean that there is one single thing that represents this completeness. That's why he lists ALL of those things as constituting and bring part of the fullness. ALL of the ordinances are required for the fullness. Missing any ordinances, like baptisms for the dead, would mean there is not a completeness.

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ransomme
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Posts: 4013

Re: I'm confused;

Post by ransomme »

LDS Watchman wrote: October 30th, 2022, 7:51 am
ransomme wrote: October 30th, 2022, 7:43 am
LDS Watchman wrote: October 30th, 2022, 7:11 am
Nevervaxxed wrote: October 30th, 2022, 6:41 am Just a clarification of my perspective; I am here on this forum to learn; most of my closest friends are STILL members of the church, and virtually every person that I hold in high esteem are members. These are people I love and trust. I hold zero anger or bitterness toward the church, and I can understand, from a logical perspective, why the brethren have made some of the decisions they've made - but I can't see how the savior would have made or been supportive of those decisions. Our savior ALWAYS stood against the "powers that be", regardless of consequence. "Do what is right let the consequence follow". What happened to that principle??

I am heart sick right now, not bitter. I have zero desire to leave the church, but I can't in good faith continue to support a church that IS supporting the Satanic overthrow of our beloved nation, founded "UNDER GOD". What is my OP "Subject"? "I'm confused"!! I'm trying to find my way to what God wants me to do. I'm truly torn in half. For now, I've stopped attending church and paying tithing, but I miss my friends and fellowship with the church. I'm heart sick, but NOT bitter nor angry. I just want the truth. And I'm doing everything I can do to find it. And that includes a lot of prayer. So far, I don't feel I've made the wrong decision to stop supporting this woke church, with all that implies...
Jesus said to render unto Cesaer what is Cesaer's and that his kingdom was not of this world. There is no record of him challenging the authority and policies of Rome or the 'powers that be.'

My advice is to go back to church and pay your tithing while you work things out. You'll feel a lot better.
Yes Jesus after all picked Matthew as a disciple. He must have supported his work as a tax collector.

Not to mention that is a very shallow interpretation of render unto Cesar what is Cesar's.

This is a good start
Let's not move the goal posts. I didn't say that Christ supported everything Cesar and the Romans were doing. But he there's no evidence whatsoever that he "stood against" them and encouraged others to flaunt what they were requiring them to do.
That is not moving the goal post, nothing of the sort. That is sarcasm.

Also don't try to pigeonhole this into a strawman that you prefer.

His first mission was primarily spiritual, as he was about his Father's business. Despite that you need to understand what Christ taught better according to the world view at the time.

He was meek, not weak. Turn the other cheek for instance does not mean to let yourself to be hit again, rather it means to stand up as an equal. It's a stance of humble courage, even defiance.

In addition, see more what the prophets taught, especially in the Book of Mormon which was prepared for our day.

Again this is a good start. It's by a church member. Give it a read.
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ransomme
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Re: I'm confused;

Post by ransomme »

Artaxerxes wrote: October 30th, 2022, 8:33 am
ransomme wrote: October 30th, 2022, 5:55 am
Artaxerxes wrote: October 29th, 2022, 9:33 am
ransomme wrote: October 29th, 2022, 5:31 am

The fulness of the priesthood is not what you are promoting.

We are in the wilderness.

JST Genesis 14:25-32
D&C 76:54,67,71,94,102
D&C 84:23-27
D&C 121:39-46
The oath of the priesthood

"If a man gets a fullness of the priesthood of God, he has to get it in the same way that Jesus Christ obtained it, and that was by keeping all the commandments and obeying all the ordinances of the house of the Lord." (History of the Church, 5:423-424, also teachings, p.308)
Yeah. Keep the commandments and you'll be fine. You don't need to worry about other people.
Ok, so you are promoting the way of Cain? "Am I my brother’s keeper?"

For clarity's sake, I desire to understand and for other people to understand truth. What you have said above about what was lost and the fullness of the priesthood does not seem to be correct. Adding more credence to what Shawn Henry and I had put forward here, see what Joseph Smith in his journal said on the first day he was, "...instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of the Melchisedek Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the Ancient of Days, and all those plans and principles by which any one is enabled to secure the fullness of those blessings which have been prepared for the Church of the First Born, and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim in the eternal worlds. In this council was instituted the ancient order of things for the first time in these last days." - Joseph Smith, May 4, 1842

So reading what Joseph said here in context with these verses, things come more into focus (call me a skeptic, but I have doubts that you read them):

JST Genesis 14:25-32
D&C 76:54,67,71,94,102
D&C 84:23-27
D&C 113:7-8
D&C 121:39-46
The oath of the priesthood
That isn't what I said. We should certainly help others. But other people's unrighteousness isn't on us.

No, that quote is exactly what I'm talking about. The fullness/completeness/being filled up that is meant by the scriptural use of pleroma does not mean that there is one single thing that represents this completeness. That's why he lists ALL of those things as constituting and bring part of the fullness. ALL of the ordinances are required for the fullness. Missing any ordinances, like baptisms for the dead, would mean there is not a completeness.
So you are saying...

It is achieving the end goals, the design, the purpose of the Holy Priesthood, after the Order of the Son of God. Its completeness.

The completeness of this order, which is given by God by His Oath is when we "receive it", which is to say, "...sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies. They become the sons of Moses and of Aaron and the seed of Abraham, and the church and kingdom, and the elect of God (aka the Church of the Firstborn) . And also all they who receive this priesthood receive me, saith the Lord; For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me; And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father; And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him." (D&C 84:33-38)

aka
Fulness of the Father, Fulness of his grace, Fulness of His glory, etc.

"the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father" (DC76:71)

"They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace;" (DC76:94)

"76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fullness.
77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.
86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;" (DC76:76-77,86 - important for context)

"And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first. And I, John, bear record, and lo, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him, and there came a voice out of heaven saying: This is my beloved Son. And I, John, bear record that he received a fulness of the glory of the Father; And he received all power, both in heaven and on earth, and the glory of the Father was with him, for he dwelt in him. And it shall come to pass, that if you are faithful you shall receive the fulness of the record of John I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fullness. For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace. And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn; And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn." (DC93:14-22)

"To have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the mediator of the new covenant." (DC107:19 (see D&C 84:19-23))

"He had reference to those whom God should call in the last days, who should hold the power of priesthood to bring again Zion, and the redemption of Israel; and to put on her strength is to put on the authority of the priesthood, which she, Zion, has a right to by lineage; also to return to that power which she had lost." (DC113:8)


Melchizedek and his people also achieved Zion, and became a part of the Assembly of the Firstborn. This is why the priesthood is able to bear the name Melchizedek as a substitute for the Son of God.
JST Genesis 14:25-40
25 And Melchizedek lifted up his voice and blessed Abram.
26 Now Melchizedek was a man of faith, who wrought righteousness; and when a child, he feared God, and stopped the mouths of lions, and quenched the violence of fire.
27 And thus, having been approved of God, he was ordained a high priest after the order of the covenant which God made with Enoch,
28 It being after the order of the Son of God, which order came not by man, nor the will of man, neither by father nor mother, neither by beginning of days nor end of years, but of God.
29 And it was delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice, according to his own will, unto as many as believed on his name--
30 For God, having sworn unto Enoch and unto his seed with an oath by himself that everyone being ordained after this order and calling should have power, by faith, to break mountains, to divide the seas, to dry up waters, to turn them out of their course,
31 To put at defiance the armies of nations, to divide the earth, to break every band, to stand in the presence of God, to do all things according to his will, according to his command, subdue principalities and powers; and this by the will of the Son of God which was from before the foundation of the world.
32 And men having this faith, coming up unto this order of God, were translated and taken up into heaven.
33 And now, Melchizedek was a priest of this order; therefore, he obtained peace in Salem and was called the prince of peace.
34 And his people wrought righteousness, and obtained heaven, and sought for the city of Enoch which God had before taken, separating it from the earth, having reserved it unto the latter days, or the end of the world,
35 And hath said, and sworn with an oath, that the heavens and the earth should come together and the sons of God should be tried so as by fire.
36 And this Melchizedek, having thus established righteousness, was called the king of heaven by his people, or, in other words, the king of peace.
37 And he lifted up his voice, and he blessed Abram, being the high priest and the keeper of the storehouse of God,
38 Him whom God had appointed to receive tithes for the poor.
39 Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.
40 And it came to pass that God blessed Abram and gave unto him riches, and honor, and lands for an everlasting possession, according to the covenant which he had made and according to the blessing wherewith Melchizedek had blessed him.


And the 1828 Websters definition since these come from the JST and D&C
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Artaxerxes
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Posts: 2298

Re: I'm confused;

Post by Artaxerxes »

ransomme wrote: October 30th, 2022, 11:02 am
Artaxerxes wrote: October 30th, 2022, 8:33 am
ransomme wrote: October 30th, 2022, 5:55 am
Artaxerxes wrote: October 29th, 2022, 9:33 am

Yeah. Keep the commandments and you'll be fine. You don't need to worry about other people.
Ok, so you are promoting the way of Cain? "Am I my brother’s keeper?"

For clarity's sake, I desire to understand and for other people to understand truth. What you have said above about what was lost and the fullness of the priesthood does not seem to be correct. Adding more credence to what Shawn Henry and I had put forward here, see what Joseph Smith in his journal said on the first day he was, "...instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of the Melchisedek Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the Ancient of Days, and all those plans and principles by which any one is enabled to secure the fullness of those blessings which have been prepared for the Church of the First Born, and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim in the eternal worlds. In this council was instituted the ancient order of things for the first time in these last days." - Joseph Smith, May 4, 1842

So reading what Joseph said here in context with these verses, things come more into focus (call me a skeptic, but I have doubts that you read them):

JST Genesis 14:25-32
D&C 76:54,67,71,94,102
D&C 84:23-27
D&C 113:7-8
D&C 121:39-46
The oath of the priesthood
That isn't what I said. We should certainly help others. But other people's unrighteousness isn't on us.

No, that quote is exactly what I'm talking about. The fullness/completeness/being filled up that is meant by the scriptural use of pleroma does not mean that there is one single thing that represents this completeness. That's why he lists ALL of those things as constituting and bring part of the fullness. ALL of the ordinances are required for the fullness. Missing any ordinances, like baptisms for the dead, would mean there is not a completeness.
So you are saying...

It is achieving the end goals, the design, the purpose of the Holy Priesthood, after the Order of the Son of God. Its completeness.

The completeness of this order, which is given by God by His Oath is when we "receive it", which is to say, "...sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies. They become the sons of Moses and of Aaron and the seed of Abraham, and the church and kingdom, and the elect of God (aka the Church of the Firstborn) . And also all they who receive this priesthood receive me, saith the Lord; For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me; And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father; And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him." (D&C 84:33-38)

aka
Fulness of the Father, Fulness of his grace, Fulness of His glory, etc.

"the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father" (DC76:71)

"They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace;" (DC76:94)

"76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fullness.
77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.
86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;" (DC76:76-77,86 - important for context)

"And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first. And I, John, bear record, and lo, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him, and there came a voice out of heaven saying: This is my beloved Son. And I, John, bear record that he received a fulness of the glory of the Father; And he received all power, both in heaven and on earth, and the glory of the Father was with him, for he dwelt in him. And it shall come to pass, that if you are faithful you shall receive the fulness of the record of John I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fullness. For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace. And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn; And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn." (DC93:14-22)

"To have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the mediator of the new covenant." (DC107:19 (see D&C 84:19-23))

"He had reference to those whom God should call in the last days, who should hold the power of priesthood to bring again Zion, and the redemption of Israel; and to put on her strength is to put on the authority of the priesthood, which she, Zion, has a right to by lineage; also to return to that power which she had lost." (DC113:8)


Melchizedek and his people also achieved Zion, and became a part of the Assembly of the Firstborn. This is why the priesthood is able to bear the name Melchizedek as a substitute for the Son of God.
JST Genesis 14:25-40
25 And Melchizedek lifted up his voice and blessed Abram.
26 Now Melchizedek was a man of faith, who wrought righteousness; and when a child, he feared God, and stopped the mouths of lions, and quenched the violence of fire.
27 And thus, having been approved of God, he was ordained a high priest after the order of the covenant which God made with Enoch,
28 It being after the order of the Son of God, which order came not by man, nor the will of man, neither by father nor mother, neither by beginning of days nor end of years, but of God.
29 And it was delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice, according to his own will, unto as many as believed on his name--
30 For God, having sworn unto Enoch and unto his seed with an oath by himself that everyone being ordained after this order and calling should have power, by faith, to break mountains, to divide the seas, to dry up waters, to turn them out of their course,
31 To put at defiance the armies of nations, to divide the earth, to break every band, to stand in the presence of God, to do all things according to his will, according to his command, subdue principalities and powers; and this by the will of the Son of God which was from before the foundation of the world.
32 And men having this faith, coming up unto this order of God, were translated and taken up into heaven.
33 And now, Melchizedek was a priest of this order; therefore, he obtained peace in Salem and was called the prince of peace.
34 And his people wrought righteousness, and obtained heaven, and sought for the city of Enoch which God had before taken, separating it from the earth, having reserved it unto the latter days, or the end of the world,
35 And hath said, and sworn with an oath, that the heavens and the earth should come together and the sons of God should be tried so as by fire.
36 And this Melchizedek, having thus established righteousness, was called the king of heaven by his people, or, in other words, the king of peace.
37 And he lifted up his voice, and he blessed Abram, being the high priest and the keeper of the storehouse of God,
38 Him whom God had appointed to receive tithes for the poor.
39 Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.
40 And it came to pass that God blessed Abram and gave unto him riches, and honor, and lands for an everlasting possession, according to the covenant which he had made and according to the blessing wherewith Melchizedek had blessed him.


And the 1828 Websters definition since these come from the JST and D&C
No. I'm not sure what that all is meant to say, but fulness and completeness means totality. If one part is missing, then there is no fullness. So when baptisms for the dead is missing, there is no fullness.

mtmom
captain of 100
Posts: 228

Re: I'm confused;

Post by mtmom »

Fred wrote: October 27th, 2022, 5:28 pm Well, Nevervaxxed. Congratulations on remaining clean. I was never in the Bishopric, but I was in the clerks office. I felt like you for a long time and would have defended the church as much as the trolls on this forum. I had a few instances that led me to follow Christ as opposed to the Brethren. Even after it first appeared to me that the Q15 were following satan, I made excuses in my mind about them having to keep the church together in spite of evil.

But sooner or later, one has to call evil out for what it is. One does not excuse a child rapist for mitigating circumstances. Neither should one forgive a serial murderer. When God told Nephi to chop off Laban's head, He did not say and go kill at random a few extra ten thousand for good measure.

If it was only one thing, then we might be mistaken for not knowing the complete circumstances. But it is thousands of things. Joining the UN after ETB clearly labeled it a purely satanic organization is one thing. Following the WEF to create a situation where there is one world leader named satan that sits on the throne is another. Then there are the millions in donations to the totally satanic violent group called Black Lives Matter. Then NAACP. Then refusing to do Trump's genealogy. Then telling people to vote for the Mutt Romney. Then praising Biden. Then closing the temples. Then requiring a satanic emblem be worn on the face to attend church. Then requiring stricter restrictions than the government during covid. Then urging members to get jabbed. Then after science proved the shot was dangerous, they doubled down. Not necessarily in the right order, but there are many, many, more. What would Jesus do? NONE of the above!
Well said.

Jashon
captain of 100
Posts: 501

Re: I'm confused;

Post by Jashon »

Shawn Henry wrote: October 28th, 2022, 4:51 pm
Nevervaxxed wrote: October 27th, 2022, 4:39 pm Has the church "fallen"? If so, how long ago?
In May of 1834, Jospeh presided at a conference where Christ's name was removed from the church. It was changed from the Church of Christ to The Church of Latter Day Saints, fulfilling Christ's warnings in the BoM when a church is not called by his name. This began the fulfilment of Isaish's words that the eyes of the Seers would be closed because of the wickedness of the people.
I'd be interested in reading about that name change. Do you have a link on that you could share? And when did they re-insert Jesus Christ in the name?

Jashon
captain of 100
Posts: 501

Re: I'm confused;

Post by Jashon »

A big issue with maintaining full activity in the church, as presently constituted, is that the leaders turn us to the left, even though leftism is anti-Christian and anti-family. So are we supposed to stay in and give up our agency, little by little, and adapt to centralization of political power and tyranny?

Nevervaxxed
captain of 100
Posts: 239

Re: I'm confused;

Post by Nevervaxxed »

Christ did stand against the powers of his day - the Sanhedran - and although he did not stand against Rome directly, had he been willing to bow to the Jewish leaders of his day, Herrod would not have ordered his death. Herrod did everything he could to stop Christ's crucifixion, even giving the Jewish hiarchy the chose of freeing Christ or a murderer/criminal.
Christ REFUSED to bow to these evil rulers of the Jewish people, and he, better than anyone, knew what the consequences would be!
I never said I would stop paying my taxes (render unto Caesar), I just can't support the church supporting the NWO and all the woke, Satanic crap they give money too.

I've already been donating large sums to the Jan 6th prisoners, Lindell, Revolver, and donating time & money to local good people running for office. If you're in District 26, please vote for Quinn Kotter, he's a true conservative and good man, 1st time running for office! His opponent is a career Pol being very deceptive of what she truly stands for, offering tax reduction she has no intention or ability to deliver, while being fully supportive of CRT, etc...

I am also the precinct committee chair and a delegate for MAG0005, a delegate, and I donate monthly to our local republican party. I am part of the "precinct strategy" espoused by Bannon on Warroom, so I am certainly rendering unto Caesar. I'm doing everything I can think of to stop the overthrow of our Republic, so I WILL NOT donate to the NWO, thru the church, to defeat what I believe in. But I may well return to church meetings, per some of your recommendations. Thanks,

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Fred
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Location: Zion

Re: I'm confused;

Post by Fred »

Jashon wrote: October 30th, 2022, 1:29 pm A big issue with maintaining full activity in the church, as presently constituted, is that the leaders turn us to the left, even though leftism is anti-Christian and anti-family. So are we supposed to stay in and give up our agency, little by little, and adapt to centralization of political power and tyranny?
Democrats are disciples of satan. No exceptions. The democratic party platform is exactly satan's agenda. Even allowing a democrat into the temple should be an excommunicable offense. But when the leadership are leftists, it means that their god is actually satan.

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