Patrick Mason's Planted (2015)

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Jashon
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Patrick Mason's Planted (2015)

Post by Jashon »

A few months ago a member of my ward gave me this book, since he thought it would help. I read most of it.

One thing that struck me was that at the end of the intro, Mason quoted from the Communist Manifesto (page 10, note 13, 16th printing, paperback).

He also wrote about how he didn't get a calling for a while in a ward around 2012, when Mitt was running for president, because the bishopric thought he would bring his politics into his church service.

Mason is now about 46 and "holds the Leonard J. Arrington Chair of Mormon History and Culture at USU." He's a leftist, and he might be a Marxist. He holds the post Philip Barlow used to hold. Barlow wrote Mormons and the Bible in the 1990s, an Oxford book. I've read some of that book. And I also read an article a few years ago, by Stanford Carmack, which shows how Barlow wrongly wrote in both editions of his Oxford book that Joseph Smith had messed up the Jacobean language he was trying to imitate when he dictated the Book of Mormon. It is shown in this article and elsewhere that Barlow apparently didn't know much about Jacobean language, beyond being acquainted with KJV idiom, and he didn't care that he got this important observation wrong. He could have even corrected this error for the second edition, had he bothered to look at any of Royal Skousen's critical text work.

Mason probably holds similar views on Mormon scripture like the Book of Mormon, and no doubt he's increasingly comfortable in our church, and pleased at the changes, as it shifts to the left.

So, I'm supposed to be helped by a book written by a leftist who's happy with the church shifting with the culture. Good grief.

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pjbrownie
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Re: Patrick Mason's Planted (2015)

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What makes you think he was a leftist? I went with high school with him. He is friends with Nathan Oman. I was friendly with him and Nate, and while were weren't close friends, we were friendly in the halls with one another, since the nerds seems to stick together.

I recall that he was a pretty milquetoast Republican back then, center-right. People can change their views, but that was my view of his positions.

Atrasado
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Re: Patrick Mason's Planted (2015)

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pjbrownie wrote: October 30th, 2022, 10:59 am What makes you think he was a leftist? I went with high school with him. He is friends with Nathan Oman. I was friendly with him and Nate, and while were weren't close friends, we were friendly in the halls with one another, since the nerds seems to stick together.

I recall that he was a pretty milquetoast Republican back then, center-right. People can change their views, but that was my view of his positions.
Which nowadays unfortunately means that he's a socialist whether he knows it or not, both in terms of distribution of goods and services and in terms of the rights of the people versus the prerogatives of government.
Last edited by Atrasado on October 30th, 2022, 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jashon
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Re: Patrick Mason's Planted (2015)

Post by Jashon »

pjbrownie wrote: October 30th, 2022, 10:59 am What makes you think he was a leftist? I went with high school with him. He is friends with Nathan Oman. I was friendly with him and Nate, and while were weren't close friends, we were friendly in the halls with one another, since the nerds seems to stick together.

I recall that he was a pretty milquetoast Republican back then, center-right. People can change their views, but that was my view of his positions.
I doubt he would've got that academic post at USU without being a leftist.

But there is more evidence in the book. On page 152, he writes that 10 years ago and more his political views didn't match most of those held by ward members. He also says he had to endure many talks that sounded like they were taken from a party platform. It's likely to be R, not D. I don't know any details, but he might have shifted his views leftward while at university or in grad school. The vast majority of academics are left-leaning or leftists. Very few, relatively speaking, are conservative or very conservative.

But things in the church have shifted over the last 10 years. I have little doubt that he is finding himself more and more at home in his ward, as members have been shifting their thinking to the progressive side.

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pjbrownie
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Re: Patrick Mason's Planted (2015)

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Jashon wrote: October 30th, 2022, 12:55 pm
pjbrownie wrote: October 30th, 2022, 10:59 am What makes you think he was a leftist? I went with high school with him. He is friends with Nathan Oman. I was friendly with him and Nate, and while were weren't close friends, we were friendly in the halls with one another, since the nerds seems to stick together.

I recall that he was a pretty milquetoast Republican back then, center-right. People can change their views, but that was my view of his positions.
I doubt he would've got that academic post at USU without being a leftist.

But there is more evidence in the book. On page 152, he writes that 10 years ago and more his political views didn't match most of those held by ward members. He also says he had to endure many talks that sounded like they were taken from a party platform. It's likely to be R, not D. I don't know any details, but he might have shifted his views leftward while at university or in grad school. The vast majority of academics are left-leaning or leftists. Very few, relatively speaking, are conservative or very conservative.

But things in the church have shifted over the last 10 years. I have little doubt that he is finding himself more and more at home in his ward, as members have been shifting their thinking to the progressive side.
Yeah I get that. Unless one went to BYU or a few other conservative universities, it's difficult getting through the gauntlet without turning left.

When I see Patrick Mason, one of the premier neo-apologists, I wonder on where my roads could have taken me, since Patrick and I diverged in high school. I went to BYU, but I certainly did not have the ambitions many had at Skyline High School on the east side. I was just a poor kid from Kearns who was lucky to go to Skyline. But I could stand toe to toe with many of those kids back in those days on all sorts of issues. I was the lone conservative in a sea of liberals and moderates.

Rubicon
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Re: Patrick Mason's Planted (2015)

Post by Rubicon »

pjbrownie wrote: October 30th, 2022, 10:59 am What makes you think he was a leftist? I went with high school with him. He is friends with Nathan Oman. I was friendly with him and Nate, and while were weren't close friends, we were friendly in the halls with one another, since the nerds seems to stick together.

I recall that he was a pretty milquetoast Republican back then, center-right. People can change their views, but that was my view of his positions.
This was only about a month ago from Nate Oman.

https://nateoman.substack.com/p/a-weldi ... -some-kind

Oman and Mason are two of the popular (in some circles) LDS professors pushing for progressive changes in policy, doctrine, and practice.

Jashon
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Re: Patrick Mason's Planted (2015)

Post by Jashon »

Rubicon wrote: October 31st, 2022, 6:43 am
pjbrownie wrote: October 30th, 2022, 10:59 am What makes you think he was a leftist? I went with high school with him. He is friends with Nathan Oman. I was friendly with him and Nate, and while were weren't close friends, we were friendly in the halls with one another, since the nerds seems to stick together.

I recall that he was a pretty milquetoast Republican back then, center-right. People can change their views, but that was my view of his positions.
This was only about a month ago from Nate Oman.

https://nateoman.substack.com/p/a-weldi ... -some-kind

Oman and Mason are two of the popular (in some circles) LDS professors pushing for progressive changes in policy, doctrine, and practice.
Yes, the only way forward for them are same-sex sealings. They know the Bible is wrong and that God's creation of humans isn't to be respected.

Severed Lips
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Re: Patrick Mason's Planted (2015)

Post by Severed Lips »

I’ve heard him speak and read some of his stuff. While I don’t agree with everything he says, he is pretty reasonable on most stuff. I highly doubt he is a marxist. I definitely wouldn’t dismiss his contributions to our faith just because he may be more liberal than me.

Rubicon
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Re: Patrick Mason's Planted (2015)

Post by Rubicon »

Patrick Mason (and Nate Oman) are non-literalists, which is an increasing and troubling trend (to me) among LDS professors, intellectuals, and influencers. They think that they are avoiding attacks on the scriptures by taking the "ammo" away, but if the Bible or Book of Mormon didn't actually happen (the people, places, and events didn't really exist), that doesn't paper anything over. Who appeared to Joseph Smith if there wasn't a Moroni? Was he deluded, insane, or a liar?

We are tied to history, and it's a good thing, in my book. It gives our stories real power --- if they are true.

Jashon
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Re: Patrick Mason's Planted (2015)

Post by Jashon »

Rubicon wrote: October 31st, 2022, 1:15 pm Patrick Mason (and Nate Oman) are non-literalists, which is an increasing and troubling trend (to me) among LDS professors, intellectuals, and influencers. They think that they are avoiding attacks on the scriptures by taking the "ammo" away, but if the Bible or Book of Mormon didn't actually happen (the people, places, and events didn't really exist), that doesn't paper anything over. Who appeared to Joseph Smith if there wasn't a Moroni? Was he deluded, insane, or a liar?

We are tied to history, and it's a good thing, in my book. It gives our stories real power --- if they are true.
This approach will eventually collapse belief, although they will say it won't. The slippery slope will be denied, even if it is likely.

They have apparently chosen to appeal to the academic mind, even though it is destructive of any Christian church, including their own.

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The Red Pill
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Re: Patrick Mason's Planted (2015)

Post by The Red Pill »

Jashon wrote: October 31st, 2022, 1:58 pm
Rubicon wrote: October 31st, 2022, 1:15 pm Patrick Mason (and Nate Oman) are non-literalists, which is an increasing and troubling trend (to me) among LDS professors, intellectuals, and influencers. They think that they are avoiding attacks on the scriptures by taking the "ammo" away, but if the Bible or Book of Mormon didn't actually happen (the people, places, and events didn't really exist), that doesn't paper anything over. Who appeared to Joseph Smith if there wasn't a Moroni? Was he deluded, insane, or a liar?

We are tied to history, and it's a good thing, in my book. It gives our stories real power --- if they are true.
This approach will eventually collapse belief, although they will say it won't. The slippery slope will be denied, even if it is likely.

They have apparently chosen to appeal to the academic mind, even though it is destructive of any Christian church, including their own.
True

Reminds me of Robert Conquest’s Three Laws of Politics:

1. Everyone is conservative about what he knows best.
2. Any organization not explicitly right-wing sooner or later becomes left-wing.
3.The simplest way to explain the behavior of any bureaucratic organization is to assume that it is controlled by a cabal of its enemies.

The LDS church could be used as a case study on law number 2.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Patrick Mason's Planted (2015)

Post by Shawn Henry »

Rubicon wrote: October 31st, 2022, 1:15 pm Patrick Mason (and Nate Oman) are non-literalists, which is an increasing and troubling trend (to me) among LDS professors, intellectuals, and influencers. They think that they are avoiding attacks on the scriptures by taking the "ammo" away, but if the Bible or Book of Mormon didn't actually happen (the people, places, and events didn't really exist), that doesn't paper anything over. Who appeared to Joseph Smith if there wasn't a Moroni? Was he deluded, insane, or a liar?

We are tied to history, and it's a good thing, in my book. It gives our stories real power --- if they are true.
This was my understanding of him as well.

He's one of those who thinks the spiritual lessons of the BoM are inspired, but it's historicity is fiction.

There's a life paradigm guaranteed to bring failure.

Christianlee
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Re: Patrick Mason's Planted (2015)

Post by Christianlee »

Rubicon wrote: October 31st, 2022, 6:43 am
pjbrownie wrote: October 30th, 2022, 10:59 am What makes you think he was a leftist? I went with high school with him. He is friends with Nathan Oman. I was friendly with him and Nate, and while were weren't close friends, we were friendly in the halls with one another, since the nerds seems to stick together.

I recall that he was a pretty milquetoast Republican back then, center-right. People can change their views, but that was my view of his positions.
This was only about a month ago from Nate Oman.

https://nateoman.substack.com/p/a-weldi ... -some-kind


Oman and Mason are two of the popular (in some circles) LDS professors pushing for progressive changes in policy, doctrine, and practice.
Is it Oman or Onan?
Last edited by Christianlee on October 31st, 2022, 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Rubicon
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Re: Patrick Mason's Planted (2015)

Post by Rubicon »

Jashon wrote: October 31st, 2022, 1:58 pm
This approach will eventually collapse belief, although they will say it won't. The slippery slope will be denied, even if it is likely.

They have apparently chosen to appeal to the academic mind, even though it is destructive of any Christian church, including their own.
Completely agree. Worst case, people completely lose their belief in the Restoration (and the atonement, resurrection, etc. The baby gets thrown out with the bath water). At minimum, this approach is going to lead to a big drop in enthusiasm and commitment. We can see this in everything from what happened to the RLDS to every other Christian denomination, other than conservative fundamentalist ones.

Rubicon
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Re: Patrick Mason's Planted (2015)

Post by Rubicon »

Shawn Henry wrote: October 31st, 2022, 2:41 pm
This was my understanding of him as well.

He's one of those who thinks the spiritual lessons of the BoM are inspired, but it's historicity is fiction.

There's a life paradigm guaranteed to bring failure.
I enjoy asking these types (who insist that they think the Book of Mormon is still inspired and inspiring, even if it's complete fiction and never happened) for examples of what they find to be most inspiring out of the Book of Mormon. Crickets. They don't really find it to be inspiring, they just want to remain cultural Mormons and not overtly attack the Church. They want to lead the Church towards being socially and intellectually acceptable to intelligentsia and progressive society, but they don't personally feel power and inspiration from any of the elements that embarrass them.

Christianlee
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Re: Patrick Mason's Planted (2015)

Post by Christianlee »

When I was at BYU in the late 80s, almost everyone in my humanities graduate program believed the Book of Mormon was inspired fiction. It must be hard for BYU to find faithful professors.

Rubicon
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Re: Patrick Mason's Planted (2015)

Post by Rubicon »

Christianlee wrote: October 31st, 2022, 4:55 pm When I was at BYU in the late 80s, almost everyone in my humanities graduate program believed the Book of Mormon was inspired fiction. It must be hard for BYU to find faithful professors.
For sure.

Luckily, top Church leadership has always been and still remains solidly literalist. It drives progressives nuts that President Nelson, despite being a heart surgeon, is very literalist/traditional/conservative in his views on evolution, historicity, etc.

And, the only thing that has appeared in Church magazines on the Flood at all remains the Donald Parry article that insists on a literal, global flood. That drives the "nuance" people nuts! Nowadays, the Church won't touch things like that with a ten-foot pole, either way.

Things like this are sooooooo embarrassing to the Patrick Mason/Nate Oman -types.

Jashon
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Re: Patrick Mason's Planted (2015)

Post by Jashon »

Christianlee wrote: October 31st, 2022, 4:55 pm When I was at BYU in the late 80s, almost everyone in my humanities graduate program believed the Book of Mormon was inspired fiction. It must be hard for BYU to find faithful professors.
They don't try to find faithful professors anymore. They try to find 'enlightened' professors who believe, half-heartedly, that the Book of Mormon is inspired fiction. Those are the ones who can publish in the worldwide academic journals.

Jashon
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Re: Patrick Mason's Planted (2015)

Post by Jashon »

Rubicon wrote: October 31st, 2022, 5:43 pm
Christianlee wrote: October 31st, 2022, 4:55 pm When I was at BYU in the late 80s, almost everyone in my humanities graduate program believed the Book of Mormon was inspired fiction. It must be hard for BYU to find faithful professors.
For sure.

Luckily, top Church leadership has always been and still remains solidly literalist. It drives progressives nuts that President Nelson, despite being a heart surgeon, is very literalist/traditional/conservative in his views on evolution, historicity, etc.

And, the only thing that has appeared in Church magazines on the Flood at all remains the Donald Parry article that insists on a literal, global flood. That drives the "nuance" people nuts! Nowadays, the Church won't touch things like that with a ten-foot pole, either way.

Things like this are sooooooo embarrassing to the Patrick Mason/Nate Oman -types.
Eventually they will put warning flags on the old articles that aren't nuanced, like they have already done with old articles that speak approvingly of forms of patriarchy.

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pho·to·syn·the·sis
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Re: Patrick Mason's Planted (2015)

Post by pho·to·syn·the·sis »

Jashon wrote: November 1st, 2022, 7:25 am
Rubicon wrote: October 31st, 2022, 5:43 pm
Christianlee wrote: October 31st, 2022, 4:55 pm When I was at BYU in the late 80s, almost everyone in my humanities graduate program believed the Book of Mormon was inspired fiction. It must be hard for BYU to find faithful professors.
For sure.

Luckily, top Church leadership has always been and still remains solidly literalist. It drives progressives nuts that President Nelson, despite being a heart surgeon, is very literalist/traditional/conservative in his views on evolution, historicity, etc.

And, the only thing that has appeared in Church magazines on the Flood at all remains the Donald Parry article that insists on a literal, global flood. That drives the "nuance" people nuts! Nowadays, the Church won't touch things like that with a ten-foot pole, either way.

Things like this are sooooooo embarrassing to the Patrick Mason/Nate Oman -types.
Eventually they will put warning flags on the old articles that aren't nuanced, like they have already done with old articles that speak approvingly of forms of patriarchy.
I feel the term “nuanced” is overused in our modern social and political vernacular. It is used to explain or detract everything. I could see them placing a flag on writing deemed “non-nuanced”

Rubicon
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Re: Patrick Mason's Planted (2015)

Post by Rubicon »

Jashon wrote: November 1st, 2022, 7:25 am
Eventually they will put warning flags on the old articles that aren't nuanced, like they have already done with old articles that speak approvingly of forms of patriarchy.
I'm interested in any examples anyone has of old articles that have been "flagged" or "tagged" with explanatory comments that seek to place them in context with shifting and contradictory social changes.

I think the Church is so averse to drawing attention -- in either direction -- that I have a hard time seeing notes like this. The "gospel topics essays" studiously seek not to take firm positions on anything (e.g., no position on BoA, while outlining various theory options; reasons given for the priesthood ban "disavowed," but no attempt at "authoritative" explanations; etc.).

I think the Church is content to leave the old articles as is, to appeal to the traditionalists, while allowing progressives to seek out their own reinforcement through podcasts, blogs, and articles from other progressives and "intellectuals." Win-win, from the Church's perspective, because it stays out of the fray.

Jashon
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Re: Patrick Mason's Planted (2015)

Post by Jashon »

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... e?lang=eng
2022-11-01 15_04_29-Strengthening the Patriarchal Order in the Home - Brave.jpg
2022-11-01 15_04_29-Strengthening the Patriarchal Order in the Home - Brave.jpg (191.95 KiB) Viewed 261 times

Rubicon
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Re: Patrick Mason's Planted (2015)

Post by Rubicon »

Jashon wrote: November 1st, 2022, 1:05 pm https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... e?lang=eng2022-11-01 15_04_29-Strengthening the Patriarchal Order in the Home - Brave.jpg
Thanks! I hadn't seen anything like that before.

ETA: Wow, from 50 years ago. I've been trying to find when the Church stopped talking about women working* and things like that. As near as I can tell, the last high-profile mention was in the late 1980s. On many issues like that (or starting families early and having as many kids as possible), the Church has simply stopped talking and let social and economic trends take their course. The demographic changes in the Church (less marriages, marriages much later in life when they happen, huge drop in children born in the Church, etc.) haven't been encouraged by the Church, but the Church hasn't tried to stop them, either.

*I realize that economic conditions are a strong factor in both parents working, even when children are very young. But, I also believe that it is possible to provide for families and have mom be home with the kids in their crucial formative years --- especially with faith. I just see the Church waving the white flag on many issues, rather than exhorting and being ignored or counsel unheeded. The counsel is no longer really given.

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pjbrownie
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Re: Patrick Mason's Planted (2015)

Post by pjbrownie »

Rubicon wrote: October 31st, 2022, 1:15 pm Patrick Mason (and Nate Oman) are non-literalists, which is an increasing and troubling trend (to me) among LDS professors, intellectuals, and influencers. They think that they are avoiding attacks on the scriptures by taking the "ammo" away, but if the Bible or Book of Mormon didn't actually happen (the people, places, and events didn't really exist), that doesn't paper anything over. Who appeared to Joseph Smith if there wasn't a Moroni? Was he deluded, insane, or a liar?

We are tied to history, and it's a good thing, in my book. It gives our stories real power --- if they are true.
We are also tied to prophecy and the future. The Book of Mormon predicts the Lamanites return to help build Zion. How does that work if there really are no Lamanites?

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