Coffee use

For discussion of liberty, freedom, government and politics.
blitzinstripes
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2294

Re: Coffee use

Post by blitzinstripes »

Mamabear wrote: October 26th, 2022, 3:24 pm
FoxMammaWisdom wrote: October 6th, 2022, 12:53 am
Artaxerxes wrote: October 6th, 2022, 12:22 am You already know that it's true. If someone is commits a burglary and a murder, and they're convicted and sentenced to prison for both, it's absolutely true to say that they were sent to prison for a burglary, because they were. They were also sent to prison for something else.

As the minute entry shows, he was excommunicated for violating the WoW, and for other things as well.

And again, the argument was over the assertion that "The prohibition of coffee and tea by the church is yet more evidence of institutional apostasy." Bringing church discipline against David Whitmer for violating the WoW, whether or not other charges were also brought, is absolutely relevant to discussing this assertion.
.....when people try to tell me what they think I know.... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

OK welp so this is still a lie you tried to shame people here with: "David Whitmer was excommunicated for drinking coffee under Joseph's administration" and you still don't seem to want to support your own argument or correct it. Just here for the argue, it seems. :lol:

David didn't get exed for coffee. You have ignored every other charge on the list. Ok then. The rest of us can read. :)
Remember when Jesus was excommunicated for drinking fermented wine?

“For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!” Luke 7:33-34
You never disappoint me, Mamabear. 😊

Mamabear
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3351

Re: Coffee use

Post by Mamabear »

blitzinstripes wrote: October 26th, 2022, 6:17 pm
Mamabear wrote: October 26th, 2022, 3:24 pm
FoxMammaWisdom wrote: October 6th, 2022, 12:53 am
Artaxerxes wrote: October 6th, 2022, 12:22 am You already know that it's true. If someone is commits a burglary and a murder, and they're convicted and sentenced to prison for both, it's absolutely true to say that they were sent to prison for a burglary, because they were. They were also sent to prison for something else.

As the minute entry shows, he was excommunicated for violating the WoW, and for other things as well.

And again, the argument was over the assertion that "The prohibition of coffee and tea by the church is yet more evidence of institutional apostasy." Bringing church discipline against David Whitmer for violating the WoW, whether or not other charges were also brought, is absolutely relevant to discussing this assertion.
.....when people try to tell me what they think I know.... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

OK welp so this is still a lie you tried to shame people here with: "David Whitmer was excommunicated for drinking coffee under Joseph's administration" and you still don't seem to want to support your own argument or correct it. Just here for the argue, it seems. :lol:

David didn't get exed for coffee. You have ignored every other charge on the list. Ok then. The rest of us can read. :)
Remember when Jesus was excommunicated for drinking fermented wine?

“For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!” Luke 7:33-34
You never disappoint me, Mamabear. 😊
Blitz, methinks you’re the only one. 😂😘

User avatar
Being There
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2868

Re: Coffee use

Post by Being There »

Artaxerxes wrote: October 6th, 2022, 12:22 am
Jules wrote: October 6th, 2022, 12:15 am
Artaxerxes wrote: October 5th, 2022, 11:40 pm
Jules wrote: October 5th, 2022, 7:45 pm

What the heck are you smoking with your Postum :?: :!: :lol: :lol:

Where's your sources?
Your story that "David Whitmer was excommunicated for drinking coffee under Joseph's administration", is getting muddy. Where can I see your claim here about David, so I can compare it with what Joseph Smith said, and then what David Whitmer said here after that:

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... book-2/135

I see a LIST that happens to start with WOW, but includes other more serious charges.

Also, those charges need to be considered within the context of David's position with the church - which is not relevant to ANYONE on this forum - as David was in high leadership, claimed to be a witness of the plates, etc. So even IF he was exed for the sin of coffee (which you have yet to show), he was in a completely different position than most others in the church, and judged with much different consideration.

Please show me where there is a record of anybody in the entire history of the church, getting excommunicated ONLY for the sin of DRINKING COFFEE - with NO other offenses, NO other foibles, NO other sins or struggles of ANY KIND.... JUST got exed for the coffee - as you first claimed David Whitmer did. I really really really want to see that citation so I can read their story please please :D .
Of course there were other bases. But that doesn't change the fact that they viewed I drinking coffee to be a sin, otherwise it wouldn't have been included in the list.

You seem to have misread what I said. I did not say that everyone should view a violation of the WoW to be an excommunicatable offense. I did say that they view it as a commandment during Joseph's day, contra someone else's argument that our view of it as a commandment.
You said "David Whitmer was excommunicated for drinking coffee under Joseph's administration".

You still haven't provided any reference for that claim, but you keep arguing and changing what you said but still no record that actually happened. I'm sure if anyone cares they can read for themself - I left the link twice- it includes what David said afterward.

Ima go have an evening dessert coffee (decaff of course) and move over to another thread :lol:
You already know that it's true. If someone is commits a burglary and a murder, and they're convicted and sentenced to prison for both, it's absolutely true to say that they were sent to prison for a burglary, because they were. They were also sent to prison for something else.

As the minute entry shows, he was excommunicated for violating the WoW, and for other things as well.

And again, the argument was over the assertion that "The prohibition of coffee and tea by the church is yet more evidence of institutional apostasy." Bringing church discipline against David Whitmer for violating the WoW, whether or not other charges were also brought, is absolutely relevant to discussing this assertion.
lol.
what a bunch of BS - as usual.

The Word of Wisdom wasn't a revelation - it was "A Word of Wisdom".

to quote myself -
The Word of Wisdom is just that ( a word of wisdom)
This was not a revelation.

it's funny how Mormon\s can make such a fuss over coffee or even tea,
while so many Mormons guzzle down Coke or energy drinks, and eat sugar
and artificial everything like it was nothing.
Not to mention the deadly prescription drugs that so many members are so fond of
and some even so addicted to that you can't even compare anything to how bad they are for you.
There's no question which is worse.
Yet it's ok, they get their pass to the temple,
but if you have a cup of coffee - no way.
RIDICULOUS !

lds.org
Section 89
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, February 27, 1833.
As a consequence of the early brethren using tobacco in their meetings, the Prophet was led to ponder upon the matter; consequently, he inquired of the Lord concerning it.
This revelation, known as the Word of Wisdom, was the result.


This was not a revelation.
Section 89 of the D&C came about because of this - as described below

"The situation that arose to evoke the revelation started with a combination of the efforts of the Kirtland Temperance Society (founded in 1830 and predominantly non Mormon), who were opposed to alcohol, tobacco and eating too much meat; and Smith training men in his ‘School of Elders' every day, meeting in a small smoke filled room above Emma's kitchen, with tobacco juice being spit all over the floor. Emma had the job of cleaning up following the meetings."

"Thus Emma, faced almost daily with “having to clean so filthy a floor” as was left by the men chewing tobacco, spoke to Joseph about the matter. Davis Whitmer's account supports Brigham Young's description. “Some of the men were excessive chewers of the filthy weed, and their disgusting slobbering and spitting caused Mrs. Smith … to make the ironical remark that ‘It would be a good thing if a revelation could be had declaring the use of tobacco a sin, and commanding it's suppression.' The matter was taken up and joked about, one of the brethren suggested that the revelation should also provide for a total abstinence from tea and coffee drinking, intending this as a counter ‘dig' at the sisters.” Sure enough the subject was afterward taken up in dead earnest, and the ‘Word of Wisdom' was the result.
(David Whitmer). (Des Moines Daily News, 16 Oct 1886:20 c. in: Newell & Avery 1994:47, also c: An Historical Analysis of the Word of Wisdom, Paul H. Peterson - Masters Thesis, [no location provided]; Also: c. in Tanner 1987:406. See also Tanner 1987: Ch. 26 for excellent coverage). (Emphasis added). "

"Section 89 of the D&C is one of many sections written to appear, not just as inspired words but rather, as if it was direct from the mouth of the Lord, as verse 4 includes “…thus saith the Lord unto you…”

also
"The Mormon Church forbids the use of tea, but according to Joseph Smith's Diary, March 11, 1843, Smith was fond of strong tea: “…in the office Joseph said he had tea with his breakfast. his wife asked him if [it] was good. he said if it was a little stronger he should like it better, when Mother Granger remarked, ‘It is so strong, and good, I should think it would answer Both for drink, and food.'”
This was entirely omitted in the History of the Church (see Vol. 5, page 302)."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

***
D&C 101
37 Therefore, care not for the body, neither the life of the body; but care for the soul, and for the life of the soul.

Matthew 10
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


the Lord has said
D&C 29:

34 Wherefore, verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual, and not at ANY TIME have I given unto you a law which was temporal; neither any man, nor the children of men; neither Adam, your father, whom I created.

35 Behold, I gave unto him that he should be an agent unto himself;
and I gave unto him commandment, but no temporal commandment
gave I unto him, for my commandments are spiritual;
they are not natural nor temporal, neither carnal nor sensual.


Matthew 15
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth,
this defileth a man.

Artaxerxes
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2298

Re: Coffee use

Post by Artaxerxes »

Being There wrote: October 26th, 2022, 6:41 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: October 6th, 2022, 12:22 am
Jules wrote: October 6th, 2022, 12:15 am
Artaxerxes wrote: October 5th, 2022, 11:40 pm

Of course there were other bases. But that doesn't change the fact that they viewed I drinking coffee to be a sin, otherwise it wouldn't have been included in the list.

You seem to have misread what I said. I did not say that everyone should view a violation of the WoW to be an excommunicatable offense. I did say that they view it as a commandment during Joseph's day, contra someone else's argument that our view of it as a commandment.
You said "David Whitmer was excommunicated for drinking coffee under Joseph's administration".

You still haven't provided any reference for that claim, but you keep arguing and changing what you said but still no record that actually happened. I'm sure if anyone cares they can read for themself - I left the link twice- it includes what David said afterward.

Ima go have an evening dessert coffee (decaff of course) and move over to another thread :lol:
You already know that it's true. If someone is commits a burglary and a murder, and they're convicted and sentenced to prison for both, it's absolutely true to say that they were sent to prison for a burglary, because they were. They were also sent to prison for something else.

As the minute entry shows, he was excommunicated for violating the WoW, and for other things as well.

And again, the argument was over the assertion that "The prohibition of coffee and tea by the church is yet more evidence of institutional apostasy." Bringing church discipline against David Whitmer for violating the WoW, whether or not other charges were also brought, is absolutely relevant to discussing this assertion.
lol.
what a bunch of BS - as usual.

The Word of Wisdom wasn't a revelation - it was "A Word of Wisdom".

to quote myself -
The Word of Wisdom is just that ( a word of wisdom)
This was not a revelation.

it's funny how Mormon\s can make such a fuss over coffee or even tea,
while so many Mormons guzzle down Coke or energy drinks, and eat sugar
and artificial everything like it was nothing.
Not to mention the deadly prescription drugs that so many members are so fond of
and some even so addicted to that you can't even compare anything to how bad they are for you.
There's no question which is worse.
Yet it's ok, they get their pass to the temple,
but if you have a cup of coffee - no way.
RIDICULOUS !

lds.org
Section 89
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, February 27, 1833.
As a consequence of the early brethren using tobacco in their meetings, the Prophet was led to ponder upon the matter; consequently, he inquired of the Lord concerning it.
This revelation, known as the Word of Wisdom, was the result.


This was not a revelation.
Section 89 of the D&C came about because of this - as described below

"The situation that arose to evoke the revelation started with a combination of the efforts of the Kirtland Temperance Society (founded in 1830 and predominantly non Mormon), who were opposed to alcohol, tobacco and eating too much meat; and Smith training men in his ‘School of Elders' every day, meeting in a small smoke filled room above Emma's kitchen, with tobacco juice being spit all over the floor. Emma had the job of cleaning up following the meetings."

"Thus Emma, faced almost daily with “having to clean so filthy a floor” as was left by the men chewing tobacco, spoke to Joseph about the matter. Davis Whitmer's account supports Brigham Young's description. “Some of the men were excessive chewers of the filthy weed, and their disgusting slobbering and spitting caused Mrs. Smith … to make the ironical remark that ‘It would be a good thing if a revelation could be had declaring the use of tobacco a sin, and commanding it's suppression.' The matter was taken up and joked about, one of the brethren suggested that the revelation should also provide for a total abstinence from tea and coffee drinking, intending this as a counter ‘dig' at the sisters.” Sure enough the subject was afterward taken up in dead earnest, and the ‘Word of Wisdom' was the result.
(David Whitmer). (Des Moines Daily News, 16 Oct 1886:20 c. in: Newell & Avery 1994:47, also c: An Historical Analysis of the Word of Wisdom, Paul H. Peterson - Masters Thesis, [no location provided]; Also: c. in Tanner 1987:406. See also Tanner 1987: Ch. 26 for excellent coverage). (Emphasis added). "

"Section 89 of the D&C is one of many sections written to appear, not just as inspired words but rather, as if it was direct from the mouth of the Lord, as verse 4 includes “…thus saith the Lord unto you…”

also
"The Mormon Church forbids the use of tea, but according to Joseph Smith's Diary, March 11, 1843, Smith was fond of strong tea: “…in the office Joseph said he had tea with his breakfast. his wife asked him if [it] was good. he said if it was a little stronger he should like it better, when Mother Granger remarked, ‘It is so strong, and good, I should think it would answer Both for drink, and food.'”
This was entirely omitted in the History of the Church (see Vol. 5, page 302)."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

***
D&C 101
37 Therefore, care not for the body, neither the life of the body; but care for the soul, and for the life of the soul.

Matthew 10
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


the Lord has said
D&C 29:

34 Wherefore, verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual, and not at ANY TIME have I given unto you a law which was temporal; neither any man, nor the children of men; neither Adam, your father, whom I created.

35 Behold, I gave unto him that he should be an agent unto himself;
and I gave unto him commandment, but no temporal commandment
gave I unto him, for my commandments are spiritual;
they are not natural nor temporal, neither carnal nor sensual.


Matthew 15
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth,
this defileth a man.
It wasn't a revelation? Lol! That would be news to Joseph Smith.

User avatar
Being There
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2868

Re: Coffee use

Post by Being There »

Artaxerxes wrote: October 26th, 2022, 7:47 pm
Being There wrote: October 26th, 2022, 6:41 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: October 6th, 2022, 12:22 am
Jules wrote: October 6th, 2022, 12:15 am
You said "David Whitmer was excommunicated for drinking coffee under Joseph's administration".

You still haven't provided any reference for that claim, but you keep arguing and changing what you said but still no record that actually happened. I'm sure if anyone cares they can read for themself - I left the link twice- it includes what David said afterward.

Ima go have an evening dessert coffee (decaff of course) and move over to another thread :lol:
You already know that it's true. If someone is commits a burglary and a murder, and they're convicted and sentenced to prison for both, it's absolutely true to say that they were sent to prison for a burglary, because they were. They were also sent to prison for something else.

As the minute entry shows, he was excommunicated for violating the WoW, and for other things as well.

And again, the argument was over the assertion that "The prohibition of coffee and tea by the church is yet more evidence of institutional apostasy." Bringing church discipline against David Whitmer for violating the WoW, whether or not other charges were also brought, is absolutely relevant to discussing this assertion.
lol.
what a bunch of BS - as usual.

The Word of Wisdom wasn't a revelation - it was "A Word of Wisdom".

to quote myself -
The Word of Wisdom is just that ( a word of wisdom)
This was not a revelation.

it's funny how Mormon\s can make such a fuss over coffee or even tea,
while so many Mormons guzzle down Coke or energy drinks, and eat sugar
and artificial everything like it was nothing.
Not to mention the deadly prescription drugs that so many members are so fond of
and some even so addicted to that you can't even compare anything to how bad they are for you.
There's no question which is worse.
Yet it's ok, they get their pass to the temple,
but if you have a cup of coffee - no way.
RIDICULOUS !

lds.org
Section 89
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, February 27, 1833.
As a consequence of the early brethren using tobacco in their meetings, the Prophet was led to ponder upon the matter; consequently, he inquired of the Lord concerning it.
This revelation, known as the Word of Wisdom, was the result.


This was not a revelation.
Section 89 of the D&C came about because of this - as described below

"The situation that arose to evoke the revelation started with a combination of the efforts of the Kirtland Temperance Society (founded in 1830 and predominantly non Mormon), who were opposed to alcohol, tobacco and eating too much meat; and Smith training men in his ‘School of Elders' every day, meeting in a small smoke filled room above Emma's kitchen, with tobacco juice being spit all over the floor. Emma had the job of cleaning up following the meetings."

"Thus Emma, faced almost daily with “having to clean so filthy a floor” as was left by the men chewing tobacco, spoke to Joseph about the matter. Davis Whitmer's account supports Brigham Young's description. “Some of the men were excessive chewers of the filthy weed, and their disgusting slobbering and spitting caused Mrs. Smith … to make the ironical remark that ‘It would be a good thing if a revelation could be had declaring the use of tobacco a sin, and commanding it's suppression.' The matter was taken up and joked about, one of the brethren suggested that the revelation should also provide for a total abstinence from tea and coffee drinking, intending this as a counter ‘dig' at the sisters.” Sure enough the subject was afterward taken up in dead earnest, and the ‘Word of Wisdom' was the result.
(David Whitmer). (Des Moines Daily News, 16 Oct 1886:20 c. in: Newell & Avery 1994:47, also c: An Historical Analysis of the Word of Wisdom, Paul H. Peterson - Masters Thesis, [no location provided]; Also: c. in Tanner 1987:406. See also Tanner 1987: Ch. 26 for excellent coverage). (Emphasis added). "

"Section 89 of the D&C is one of many sections written to appear, not just as inspired words but rather, as if it was direct from the mouth of the Lord, as verse 4 includes “…thus saith the Lord unto you…”

also
"The Mormon Church forbids the use of tea, but according to Joseph Smith's Diary, March 11, 1843, Smith was fond of strong tea: “…in the office Joseph said he had tea with his breakfast. his wife asked him if [it] was good. he said if it was a little stronger he should like it better, when Mother Granger remarked, ‘It is so strong, and good, I should think it would answer Both for drink, and food.'”
This was entirely omitted in the History of the Church (see Vol. 5, page 302)."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

***
D&C 101
37 Therefore, care not for the body, neither the life of the body; but care for the soul, and for the life of the soul.

Matthew 10
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


the Lord has said
D&C 29:

34 Wherefore, verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual, and not at ANY TIME have I given unto you a law which was temporal; neither any man, nor the children of men; neither Adam, your father, whom I created.

35 Behold, I gave unto him that he should be an agent unto himself;
and I gave unto him commandment, but no temporal commandment
gave I unto him, for my commandments are spiritual;
they are not natural nor temporal, neither carnal nor sensual.


Matthew 15
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth,
this defileth a man.
It wasn't a revelation? Lol! That would be news to Joseph Smith.
maybe, maybe not - seeing as though he couldn't tell the difference sometimes
what was revelation and what was his own thoughts.


I think this may be a good time bring this out -
about the D&C.

Like I commented to someone else -

"I guess the real question is, is it really all revelation.
I for one do not believe it was all from direct revelation.
And if it is, some things have been added and taken out -
been changed and modified, according to the desires of those men who did it.
Over the years church authorities have made hundreds of changes to our scriptures -
and to many other things - just look at all the changes made over the years
with things to do with the temple and the endowment alone.

Some things in the D&C contradicts many other scriptures we have in the Bible and Book of Mormon.
Just look at the controversy over section 132 alone - over polygamy.

Many scholars of the D&C have stated there are sections that are questionable as to whether or not
they were actual revelation from the Lord, or from man.


quote

III. It is the Same: God’s Words versus Man’s Words

Good men and inspired servants sent of the Lord do their best to quote God’s words as accurately as possible,
not adding to or taking away anything from them. These servants point to God as our source light and truth, not
themselves. Contrast this imperfect and corrupt men who seek the praise of the world and financial support from
others. God defines this as “priestcraft” (2 Ne. 26:29). Such live on the accolades of men and filthy lucre. They
raise themselves up as a light in replacement of God. Our Savior stated that He is the light we are look to, and
the things He does as our example (3 Ne. 18:24).

Thus Saith the Lord God’s words are powerful and important, much more so than those of any man. God
often introduces His word by using some variation of the phrase “Thus saith the Lord.” They alert us that we
should pay close attention to what follows. The Doctrine and Covenants has many such phrases. They include,
“Hearken unto me, saith the Lord your God" (Section 51); “Behold, I am God; give heed unto my word”
(Section 13); “Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your redeemer, the Great I AM” (section 29); "Listen to
the voice of the Lord your God, Even Alpha and Omega" (section 35), and so on.

Some things we read are not God’s words. An example of a so-called "revelation" from God in the Doctrine and
Covenants that did not come from Him is portions of Section 20. Elder James. E. Talmage read its first few
verses, believing that they were the words of Christ, or at least those given to Joseph Smith by Him. He believed
they were also tied to the Lord’s birth date. With this assumption, Elder Talmage added his own statements
about this probability in His book Jesus the Christ, stating that April 6th was most likely the Lord’s birthday.
This book statement is believed to have started our April 6th tradition for Christ’s birthday. In the Joseph Smith
Paper’s project, we have since learned that the words in the first few verses of D&C 20 are not those of the
Lord, nor those of a sent angel from His throne, nor those of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Instead, they are added
words of John Whitmer, Joseph Smith’s scribe at the time, used to introduce the reader to the rest of the section.
Elder Talmage’s mistaken belief that they were the Lord’s words has led to a now fully entrenched LDS
“tradition” that they also reveal our Lord’s birthdate (see the paper, “The LDS April 6th Tradition”).

God’s Words versus Man’s Words The introductory paragraph to D&C 20 (above it) states that it is a
“revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet,” yet this introduction, along with the first few verses of
Section 20 were written by a committee that compiled that particular edition of the scriptures in 1981. Nowhere
in this section does our Lord Jesus Christ identify these words as coming from Him.

We now know, thanks largely to the Joseph Smith Papers project, that section 20 is a hodgepodge of statements
thrown together by as many as six different early Church leaders, who did so in a hurry to get it ready for
publication. Joseph Smith the Prophet may have been among them, but the original document also shows other
“voices” that are not our Lord’s. This is especially true of the first few verses of D&C 20, which we now know
were written by John Whtimer, Joseph Smith’s scribe at the time. Additional verses in Section 20 may be
written by Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, or Sidney Rigdon, among others.

More importantly, many today assume these “servants” and others (like our General Authorities) are the
“servants” God referred to in verse 38 of Section 1 of the D&C, where the Lord states, “Whether it be by mine
own voice, or by the voice of my servants it is the same.” Many times they are not the same. We should
understand the context of this statement by God, and what He means by “his servants.” The voices in writing in
D&C 20, and many others today are not "the same voice” as God's, nor those of His chosen “angels” – those
sent from His throne who are His “servants” sent to quote Him directly, doing so accurately - word for word.
Thus, we should also be careful in how we use the word “servant” today and how we interpret D&C 1:38. We
should pay close attention to those servants sent of God who quote God’s words accurately. Statements by men
are much less important, not matter how well-meaning or eloquent they might be.

Does this mean that section 20 should be ignored? No. It contains many patterns for governing the operations of
the church. But some of those patterns were created by men (some believe they suggest a Campbellite
influence), and not necessarily the pattern laid out by God Himself for the Church.

Take for example, section 27, a revelation given in the voice of one of God's servants – this time an angel. One
day Joseph set out to buy some wine for the sacrament. On the way he was stopped by an angel, who warned
him he was about to purchase wine from his enemies, and that he might want to think twice about doing so in
case it was poisoned. The angel didn’t warn Joseph in his own words, adding His own commentary, but instead
saying, “Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your Lord, your God, and your redeemer, whose word is quick and
powerful.” From there the angel quoted God directly, delivering the message he was sent to deliver, accurately
and without embellishment. He recited it word for word just as if it had come from the mouth of God Himself.
He then departed. That is what it really means in D&C 1:38 when God said, “Whether it be by mine own voice,
or by the voice of my servants it is the same.”

In the October General Conferences of 2010 and 2014 a leader stood and quoted this verse of scripture, implying
that what followed would be the same as the Lord’s own words. It is was the Lord’s words, quoted exactly as He
gave them, then “they are the same.” Certainly there were edifying words spoken by these leaders, but this verse
in D&C 1 doesn’t necessarily mean the words of leaders past, present, or future are the words of Christ, unless
they are exactly His, or if they speaking under the power of the Holy Ghost (who is one with God and bears of
the truth of all things). Only then is one speaking with “the tongue of angels.”

We often place too much trust in “the arm of flesh.” This is one of the biggest problems in our current culture.
Where possible, we should verify all things said or written as God’s word by way of the Spirit. We read in 3
Nephi 19:8 about the Twelve Apostles at Bountiful and how they taught most effectively. “And when they had
ministered those same words which Jesus had spoken – nothing varying from the words which Jesus had
spoken – behold, they knelt again and prayed to the Father in the name of Jesus.” Here His servants spoke the
same words as Jesus, the people knowing that they were His. Then is the meaning of D&C 1:38 fulfilled,
“Whether it be by mine own voice, or by the voice of my servants it is the same.” Note verses 36 through 38 of
D&C 1 hereafter. The whole section is the Lord’s introduction to His own words that are to go forth to the world. He states:

37 Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in
them shall all be fulfilled.
38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the
earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the
voice of my servants, it is the same.
39 For behold, and lo, the Lord is God, and the Spirit beareth record, and the record is true, and the truth
abideth forever and ever. Amen.

Note the Lord is counseling us to search these commandments - the ones in the revelations of this particular
book – that ARE HIS! No reference is made in this section to anything a Church leader might one day say in
the future. This is important in understanding the next verse, "What I the Lord have spoken I have spoken, and I
excuse not myself." They are His words, not mans. Our Lord is God. He makes no apologies for the precise
predictions He has made. Note that God is speaking in the past tense. What He has spoken He has spoken. This
is not a reference about what a future leader of the Church may say. He's referencing His own words here, and
His words alone. "And though the heavens and the earth may pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall
all be fulfilled." If our powerful God said it, then we can be sure it will happen.

The key question is, "what is the same" as His words, what is the same as His voice? He is talking about His
word as revealed in this book – the Doctrine and Covenants where His prophecies, His predictions, and the
judgments He assures us will come to pass are found. The servants He is referring to are those men to whom
these particular revelations in the D&C were given to and recorded by. This list includes Joseph and Hyrum
Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon, John, David, and Peter Whitmer, etc. We should not miss the clear
reference in them in verse 6 - to "my servants" - the very ones instructed by Him to publish these words to the world.

Thus, in Section 1 of the D&C, His introduction to His words that follow, God is telling His people that all the
prophecies foretold in the sections that follow this introduction will come to pass. Why - because He spoke it,
"and I excuse not myself.” His words are quick and powerful and will be fulfilled! This is the context of the
Lord’s words, “Whether it be by mine own voice, or by the voice of my servants it is the same.” He is not saying
that future leaders words are or will be His. He is saying that the words He gave past prophets in the Bible, Book
of Mormon, and those given Joseph Smith and others in the D&C - relative to coming judgments in our day -
will be fulfilled, but He gave them to these men. They are His words, given in revelation! They are not prepared
talks by men, not matter how good and well-intended they may be. If the talks are given under the power of the
Holy Ghost, then they are comparable to His words, but not necessarily the same.

Last Thoughts on Section 27 In the original Book of Commandments, Section 27 was 13 verses shorter
than it is today, ending in verse 5, with the statement, “for the hour cometh that I will drink of the fruit of the
vine with you, on the earth, and with all those whom my Father hath given me out of the world.” We learn in the
Joseph Smith Papers project that Oliver Cowdery added the extra 13 verses beyond verse 5 – those of God’s
angel, starting with a statement he says was made by Moroni. We see this in the later part of verse 5 when the
angel seems to suddenly shift gears, stating, "I will drink of the fruit of the vine with you on the earth, and with
Moroni...”

Nothing Oliver Cowdery added in section 27 has the same status as that of, “by my voice or the voice of my
servant.” The angel appearing to Joseph Smith spoke for God, providing nothing more or less than His words.
Note the Lord’s words regarding the words He gave His chosen servant Joseph Smith to give us. God states,
“Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall
give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me” (D&C 21:4). An important qualification
for a true messenger is that the word of God they carry be as brief as possible, that it originate from God, and
that it is accurate.

Idolatry It is important that we quote God and angels often and accurately. And it is important that we
quote God more often than men – the arm of flesh, in our talks to one another. We have replaced too many of
God’s words with those of men. Too many talks quote General Authorities over and over rather than the words
of God. Leaders often quote each other. Sometimes they quote themselves from past talks. God has instead
spoken to us! His words are powerful. We should reference His words more frequently, doing so accurately. A
good second choice is to quote those chosen messengers that quote Him word for word, those who are “sent
ones” from His presence and throne. When a servant, chosen and sent by God states, “thus saith the Lord,” we
should pay close attention to what follows, then confirm that they are indeed the Lord’s words. We should then
follow them. In this way we can avoid idolatry and deception."

end quote

Artaxerxes
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2298

Re: Coffee use

Post by Artaxerxes »

Being There wrote: October 26th, 2022, 8:33 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: October 26th, 2022, 7:47 pm
Being There wrote: October 26th, 2022, 6:41 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: October 6th, 2022, 12:22 am

You already know that it's true. If someone is commits a burglary and a murder, and they're convicted and sentenced to prison for both, it's absolutely true to say that they were sent to prison for a burglary, because they were. They were also sent to prison for something else.

As the minute entry shows, he was excommunicated for violating the WoW, and for other things as well.

And again, the argument was over the assertion that "The prohibition of coffee and tea by the church is yet more evidence of institutional apostasy." Bringing church discipline against David Whitmer for violating the WoW, whether or not other charges were also brought, is absolutely relevant to discussing this assertion.
lol.
what a bunch of BS - as usual.

The Word of Wisdom wasn't a revelation - it was "A Word of Wisdom".

to quote myself -
The Word of Wisdom is just that ( a word of wisdom)
This was not a revelation.

it's funny how Mormon\s can make such a fuss over coffee or even tea,
while so many Mormons guzzle down Coke or energy drinks, and eat sugar
and artificial everything like it was nothing.
Not to mention the deadly prescription drugs that so many members are so fond of
and some even so addicted to that you can't even compare anything to how bad they are for you.
There's no question which is worse.
Yet it's ok, they get their pass to the temple,
but if you have a cup of coffee - no way.
RIDICULOUS !

lds.org
Section 89
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, February 27, 1833.
As a consequence of the early brethren using tobacco in their meetings, the Prophet was led to ponder upon the matter; consequently, he inquired of the Lord concerning it.
This revelation, known as the Word of Wisdom, was the result.


This was not a revelation.
Section 89 of the D&C came about because of this - as described below

"The situation that arose to evoke the revelation started with a combination of the efforts of the Kirtland Temperance Society (founded in 1830 and predominantly non Mormon), who were opposed to alcohol, tobacco and eating too much meat; and Smith training men in his ‘School of Elders' every day, meeting in a small smoke filled room above Emma's kitchen, with tobacco juice being spit all over the floor. Emma had the job of cleaning up following the meetings."

"Thus Emma, faced almost daily with “having to clean so filthy a floor” as was left by the men chewing tobacco, spoke to Joseph about the matter. Davis Whitmer's account supports Brigham Young's description. “Some of the men were excessive chewers of the filthy weed, and their disgusting slobbering and spitting caused Mrs. Smith … to make the ironical remark that ‘It would be a good thing if a revelation could be had declaring the use of tobacco a sin, and commanding it's suppression.' The matter was taken up and joked about, one of the brethren suggested that the revelation should also provide for a total abstinence from tea and coffee drinking, intending this as a counter ‘dig' at the sisters.” Sure enough the subject was afterward taken up in dead earnest, and the ‘Word of Wisdom' was the result.
(David Whitmer). (Des Moines Daily News, 16 Oct 1886:20 c. in: Newell & Avery 1994:47, also c: An Historical Analysis of the Word of Wisdom, Paul H. Peterson - Masters Thesis, [no location provided]; Also: c. in Tanner 1987:406. See also Tanner 1987: Ch. 26 for excellent coverage). (Emphasis added). "

"Section 89 of the D&C is one of many sections written to appear, not just as inspired words but rather, as if it was direct from the mouth of the Lord, as verse 4 includes “…thus saith the Lord unto you…”

also
"The Mormon Church forbids the use of tea, but according to Joseph Smith's Diary, March 11, 1843, Smith was fond of strong tea: “…in the office Joseph said he had tea with his breakfast. his wife asked him if [it] was good. he said if it was a little stronger he should like it better, when Mother Granger remarked, ‘It is so strong, and good, I should think it would answer Both for drink, and food.'”
This was entirely omitted in the History of the Church (see Vol. 5, page 302)."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

***
D&C 101
37 Therefore, care not for the body, neither the life of the body; but care for the soul, and for the life of the soul.

Matthew 10
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


the Lord has said
D&C 29:

34 Wherefore, verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual, and not at ANY TIME have I given unto you a law which was temporal; neither any man, nor the children of men; neither Adam, your father, whom I created.

35 Behold, I gave unto him that he should be an agent unto himself;
and I gave unto him commandment, but no temporal commandment
gave I unto him, for my commandments are spiritual;
they are not natural nor temporal, neither carnal nor sensual.


Matthew 15
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth,
this defileth a man.
It wasn't a revelation? Lol! That would be news to Joseph Smith.
maybe, maybe not - seeing as though he couldn't tell the difference sometimes
what was revelation and what was his own thoughts.


I think this may be a good time bring this out -
about the D&C.

Like I commented to someone else -

"I guess the real question is, is it really all revelation.
I for one do not believe it was all from direct revelation.
And if it is, some things have been added and taken out -
been changed and modified, according to the desires of those men who did it.
Over the years church authorities have made hundreds of changes to our scriptures -
and to many other things - just look at all the changes made over the years
with things to do with the temple and the endowment alone.

Some things in the D&C contradicts many other scriptures we have in the Bible and Book of Mormon.
Just look at the controversy over section 132 alone - over polygamy.

Many scholars of the D&C have stated there are sections that are questionable as to whether or not
they were actual revelation from the Lord, or from man.


quote

III. It is the Same: God’s Words versus Man’s Words

Good men and inspired servants sent of the Lord do their best to quote God’s words as accurately as possible,
not adding to or taking away anything from them. These servants point to God as our source light and truth, not
themselves. Contrast this imperfect and corrupt men who seek the praise of the world and financial support from
others. God defines this as “priestcraft” (2 Ne. 26:29). Such live on the accolades of men and filthy lucre. They
raise themselves up as a light in replacement of God. Our Savior stated that He is the light we are look to, and
the things He does as our example (3 Ne. 18:24).

Thus Saith the Lord God’s words are powerful and important, much more so than those of any man. God
often introduces His word by using some variation of the phrase “Thus saith the Lord.” They alert us that we
should pay close attention to what follows. The Doctrine and Covenants has many such phrases. They include,
“Hearken unto me, saith the Lord your God" (Section 51); “Behold, I am God; give heed unto my word”
(Section 13); “Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your redeemer, the Great I AM” (section 29); "Listen to
the voice of the Lord your God, Even Alpha and Omega" (section 35), and so on.

Some things we read are not God’s words. An example of a so-called "revelation" from God in the Doctrine and
Covenants that did not come from Him is portions of Section 20. Elder James. E. Talmage read its first few
verses, believing that they were the words of Christ, or at least those given to Joseph Smith by Him. He believed
they were also tied to the Lord’s birth date. With this assumption, Elder Talmage added his own statements
about this probability in His book Jesus the Christ, stating that April 6th was most likely the Lord’s birthday.
This book statement is believed to have started our April 6th tradition for Christ’s birthday. In the Joseph Smith
Paper’s project, we have since learned that the words in the first few verses of D&C 20 are not those of the
Lord, nor those of a sent angel from His throne, nor those of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Instead, they are added
words of John Whitmer, Joseph Smith’s scribe at the time, used to introduce the reader to the rest of the section.
Elder Talmage’s mistaken belief that they were the Lord’s words has led to a now fully entrenched LDS
“tradition” that they also reveal our Lord’s birthdate (see the paper, “The LDS April 6th Tradition”).

God’s Words versus Man’s Words The introductory paragraph to D&C 20 (above it) states that it is a
“revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet,” yet this introduction, along with the first few verses of
Section 20 were written by a committee that compiled that particular edition of the scriptures in 1981. Nowhere
in this section does our Lord Jesus Christ identify these words as coming from Him.

We now know, thanks largely to the Joseph Smith Papers project, that section 20 is a hodgepodge of statements
thrown together by as many as six different early Church leaders, who did so in a hurry to get it ready for
publication. Joseph Smith the Prophet may have been among them, but the original document also shows other
“voices” that are not our Lord’s. This is especially true of the first few verses of D&C 20, which we now know
were written by John Whtimer, Joseph Smith’s scribe at the time. Additional verses in Section 20 may be
written by Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, or Sidney Rigdon, among others.

More importantly, many today assume these “servants” and others (like our General Authorities) are the
“servants” God referred to in verse 38 of Section 1 of the D&C, where the Lord states, “Whether it be by mine
own voice, or by the voice of my servants it is the same.” Many times they are not the same. We should
understand the context of this statement by God, and what He means by “his servants.” The voices in writing in
D&C 20, and many others today are not "the same voice” as God's, nor those of His chosen “angels” – those
sent from His throne who are His “servants” sent to quote Him directly, doing so accurately - word for word.
Thus, we should also be careful in how we use the word “servant” today and how we interpret D&C 1:38. We
should pay close attention to those servants sent of God who quote God’s words accurately. Statements by men
are much less important, not matter how well-meaning or eloquent they might be.

Does this mean that section 20 should be ignored? No. It contains many patterns for governing the operations of
the church. But some of those patterns were created by men (some believe they suggest a Campbellite
influence), and not necessarily the pattern laid out by God Himself for the Church.

Take for example, section 27, a revelation given in the voice of one of God's servants – this time an angel. One
day Joseph set out to buy some wine for the sacrament. On the way he was stopped by an angel, who warned
him he was about to purchase wine from his enemies, and that he might want to think twice about doing so in
case it was poisoned. The angel didn’t warn Joseph in his own words, adding His own commentary, but instead
saying, “Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your Lord, your God, and your redeemer, whose word is quick and
powerful.” From there the angel quoted God directly, delivering the message he was sent to deliver, accurately
and without embellishment. He recited it word for word just as if it had come from the mouth of God Himself.
He then departed. That is what it really means in D&C 1:38 when God said, “Whether it be by mine own voice,
or by the voice of my servants it is the same.”

In the October General Conferences of 2010 and 2014 a leader stood and quoted this verse of scripture, implying
that what followed would be the same as the Lord’s own words. It is was the Lord’s words, quoted exactly as He
gave them, then “they are the same.” Certainly there were edifying words spoken by these leaders, but this verse
in D&C 1 doesn’t necessarily mean the words of leaders past, present, or future are the words of Christ, unless
they are exactly His, or if they speaking under the power of the Holy Ghost (who is one with God and bears of
the truth of all things). Only then is one speaking with “the tongue of angels.”

We often place too much trust in “the arm of flesh.” This is one of the biggest problems in our current culture.
Where possible, we should verify all things said or written as God’s word by way of the Spirit. We read in 3
Nephi 19:8 about the Twelve Apostles at Bountiful and how they taught most effectively. “And when they had
ministered those same words which Jesus had spoken – nothing varying from the words which Jesus had
spoken – behold, they knelt again and prayed to the Father in the name of Jesus.” Here His servants spoke the
same words as Jesus, the people knowing that they were His. Then is the meaning of D&C 1:38 fulfilled,
“Whether it be by mine own voice, or by the voice of my servants it is the same.” Note verses 36 through 38 of
D&C 1 hereafter. The whole section is the Lord’s introduction to His own words that are to go forth to the world. He states:

37 Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in
them shall all be fulfilled.
38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the
earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the
voice of my servants, it is the same.
39 For behold, and lo, the Lord is God, and the Spirit beareth record, and the record is true, and the truth
abideth forever and ever. Amen.

Note the Lord is counseling us to search these commandments - the ones in the revelations of this particular
book – that ARE HIS! No reference is made in this section to anything a Church leader might one day say in
the future. This is important in understanding the next verse, "What I the Lord have spoken I have spoken, and I
excuse not myself." They are His words, not mans. Our Lord is God. He makes no apologies for the precise
predictions He has made. Note that God is speaking in the past tense. What He has spoken He has spoken. This
is not a reference about what a future leader of the Church may say. He's referencing His own words here, and
His words alone. "And though the heavens and the earth may pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall
all be fulfilled." If our powerful God said it, then we can be sure it will happen.

The key question is, "what is the same" as His words, what is the same as His voice? He is talking about His
word as revealed in this book – the Doctrine and Covenants where His prophecies, His predictions, and the
judgments He assures us will come to pass are found. The servants He is referring to are those men to whom
these particular revelations in the D&C were given to and recorded by. This list includes Joseph and Hyrum
Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon, John, David, and Peter Whitmer, etc. We should not miss the clear
reference in them in verse 6 - to "my servants" - the very ones instructed by Him to publish these words to the world.

Thus, in Section 1 of the D&C, His introduction to His words that follow, God is telling His people that all the
prophecies foretold in the sections that follow this introduction will come to pass. Why - because He spoke it,
"and I excuse not myself.” His words are quick and powerful and will be fulfilled! This is the context of the
Lord’s words, “Whether it be by mine own voice, or by the voice of my servants it is the same.” He is not saying
that future leaders words are or will be His. He is saying that the words He gave past prophets in the Bible, Book
of Mormon, and those given Joseph Smith and others in the D&C - relative to coming judgments in our day -
will be fulfilled, but He gave them to these men. They are His words, given in revelation! They are not prepared
talks by men, not matter how good and well-intended they may be. If the talks are given under the power of the
Holy Ghost, then they are comparable to His words, but not necessarily the same.

Last Thoughts on Section 27 In the original Book of Commandments, Section 27 was 13 verses shorter
than it is today, ending in verse 5, with the statement, “for the hour cometh that I will drink of the fruit of the
vine with you, on the earth, and with all those whom my Father hath given me out of the world.” We learn in the
Joseph Smith Papers project that Oliver Cowdery added the extra 13 verses beyond verse 5 – those of God’s
angel, starting with a statement he says was made by Moroni. We see this in the later part of verse 5 when the
angel seems to suddenly shift gears, stating, "I will drink of the fruit of the vine with you on the earth, and with
Moroni...”

Nothing Oliver Cowdery added in section 27 has the same status as that of, “by my voice or the voice of my
servant.” The angel appearing to Joseph Smith spoke for God, providing nothing more or less than His words.
Note the Lord’s words regarding the words He gave His chosen servant Joseph Smith to give us. God states,
“Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall
give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me” (D&C 21:4). An important qualification
for a true messenger is that the word of God they carry be as brief as possible, that it originate from God, and
that it is accurate.

Idolatry It is important that we quote God and angels often and accurately. And it is important that we
quote God more often than men – the arm of flesh, in our talks to one another. We have replaced too many of
God’s words with those of men. Too many talks quote General Authorities over and over rather than the words
of God. Leaders often quote each other. Sometimes they quote themselves from past talks. God has instead
spoken to us! His words are powerful. We should reference His words more frequently, doing so accurately. A
good second choice is to quote those chosen messengers that quote Him word for word, those who are “sent
ones” from His presence and throne. When a servant, chosen and sent by God states, “thus saith the Lord,” we
should pay close attention to what follows, then confirm that they are indeed the Lord’s words. We should then
follow them. In this way we can avoid idolatry and deception."

end quote
Joseph couldn't tell what was a revelation and what wasn't?
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JandD6572
captain of 100
Posts: 292

Re: Coffee use

Post by JandD6572 »

FoxMammaWisdom wrote: October 5th, 2022, 1:50 pm
tribrac wrote: October 5th, 2022, 12:56 pm I'm sorry. Church is hard. And so many people can't handle a little authority, even with their good intentions.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
No the hard thing was getting myself to realize I can start making my own choices like a grown woman without asking some guy in a suit across a desk reading a manual a multi-gajillion-dollar-corporation wrote, hoping the church authority being his authority, making his decisions for him, gives him a pat on the back - if I can have a smoothie. But once I took that leap I found that I had the freedom to use my agency all along without asking permission like someone's "sub" or something, if I can have a smoothie.

If I utilize the agency we all have and choose with my own grown-lady-mind to have a coffee smoothie today (I prefer decaff since I only show up for the taste not the caffeine) - then I get to suffer the buffetings of Satan and spend 15 extra minutes on the toilet. But OOOOOOOHHHHHHH that coffee was goooooodddd!! And wowsers guess what? I didn't have to ask some corporation permission at age one-half-a-century-old, to have a smoothie! :idea:

right there with you sister, I got tired of being told I could not see God, because I drank coffee. the whole word of wisdom has been a issue for me, for instance, again, "THE" church teaches God is the same yesterday, today and forever, unless of course, he changes his mind lol. just as the word of wisdom for one thing. first, it's given as a choice, an option, but later, it's like, oh, sorry, never mind, I was wrong, now it's a commandment? I say hogwash. My own intuition is that it is nothing but control.

FoundMyEden
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1240

Re: Coffee use

Post by FoundMyEden »

HVDC wrote: October 26th, 2022, 4:52 pm
FoundMyEden wrote: October 26th, 2022, 4:18 pm
Niemand wrote: October 8th, 2022, 4:27 pm
Silver Pie wrote: October 8th, 2022, 2:08 pm

Where did you get this information?
Numerous medical texts and personal experience in the case of insomnia, skyhigh anxiety and arrhythmia. I don't haven't had these since giving up coffee which is one reason I'm sympathetic to the WoW or at least its interpretation. I do still get some caffeine out of soft drinks, but a fraction of when I was drinking coffee...I go days without doing so (at least a week or two since I last did )

Also watching a mate of mine jerking around on the floor after three or four cups of it. He hsd no history of it. It used to give me some kind of epileptiform attack as well — flashes of light.
Here’s a funny story…I have a history of anemia, heart arrhythmia, anxiety, and sleep deprivation and low blood sugar. This was all before coffee. Don’t ask me why but after coffee became a staple, everything improved.

I guess I’m an anomaly.
I had serious stomach pain for weeks.

Nothing worked.

Doctors say nothing wrong.

Prayed what to do.

"Drink decafe"

Tried it (Much to everyone's disapproval)

Several weeks later.

No more pain.

Spirit say.

Stop now.

So I stopped.

Evil H.
Right. I believe where the spirit leads you, you should go. Very good.

User avatar
Obrien
Up, up and away.
Posts: 4951

Re: Coffee use

Post by Obrien »

FoxMammaWisdom wrote: October 5th, 2022, 11:14 am Depends on the bishop 100%. I had a bishop who was extremely offended by coffee. So after I admitted I had lusted after and consumed a Starbuck's Frappaccino smoothie, he wouldn't even interview me for a minimum of six months after that - just held my recommend.
Now I just enjoy my coffee.
Try it black. That's how coffee should be enjoyed. :)

User avatar
FoxMammaWisdom
The Heretic
Posts: 3778
Location: I think and I know things.

Re: Coffee use

Post by FoxMammaWisdom »

Obrien wrote: October 30th, 2022, 11:26 am
FoxMammaWisdom wrote: October 5th, 2022, 11:14 am Depends on the bishop 100%. I had a bishop who was extremely offended by coffee. So after I admitted I had lusted after and consumed a Starbuck's Frappaccino smoothie, he wouldn't even interview me for a minimum of six months after that - just held my recommend.
Now I just enjoy my coffee.
Try it black. That's how coffee should be enjoyed. :)
Yes please from my french press!
(Don't do Starbucks anymore, them and their coffee are poison.)
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So good to see you and your balloon avatar again Obrien :)

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Pazooka
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5222
Location: FEMA District 8

Re: Coffee use

Post by Pazooka »

The fact that coffee grounds make the absolute best addition to a compost pile must be because it’s so bad for your health.

And coffee enemas aren’t one of the best ways to help your liver detoxify. That’s just an anti-faith promoting rumor.

Mamabear
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3351

Re: Coffee use

Post by Mamabear »

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Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13997

Re: Coffee use

Post by Niemand »

Pazooka wrote: October 30th, 2022, 3:06 pm The fact that coffee grounds make the absolute best addition to a compost pile must be because it’s so bad for your health.

And coffee enemas aren’t one of the best ways to help your liver detoxify. That’s just an anti-faith promoting rumor.
Coffee grounds are excellent for keeping ants out.

And coffee plants poison the ground around them for many other plants to grow.

So we can spin it both ways.

I'll pass on the enema, no pun intended.

User avatar
Obrien
Up, up and away.
Posts: 4951

Re: Coffee use

Post by Obrien »

FoxMammaWisdom wrote: October 30th, 2022, 2:09 pm
Obrien wrote: October 30th, 2022, 11:26 am
FoxMammaWisdom wrote: October 5th, 2022, 11:14 am Depends on the bishop 100%. I had a bishop who was extremely offended by coffee. So after I admitted I had lusted after and consumed a Starbuck's Frappaccino smoothie, he wouldn't even interview me for a minimum of six months after that - just held my recommend.
Now I just enjoy my coffee.
Try it black. That's how coffee should be enjoyed. :)
Yes please from my french press!
(Don't do Starbucks anymore, them and their coffee are poison.)
coffee.gif
So good to see you and your balloon avatar again Obrien :)
JBalm made that balloon avatar for me back in 2015ish. It's one of my most prized digital objects. Hope you are well. ❤

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