The original 1840s temple endowment

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XEmilyX
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The original 1840s temple endowment

Post by XEmilyX »

Does anyone know where I can find this transcript? I've been searching and can find 1930s but not this early. I feel like it's truly very different than what we have now. I wanted to know about the washing of feet as well. I think this is a very sacred ordinance and I don't know why they got rid of it for the general public. Anyway, thanks!

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Luke
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Re: The original 1840s temple endowment

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There are plenty of Brigham-era and John Taylor-era ones available, but I don’t know of any 1840s ones. The Cutlerites still practice it but they do not share it with anyone.

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Niemand
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Re: The original 1840s temple endowment

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1846
http://www.ldsendowment.org/emeline.html

1847
http://www.ldsendowment.org/vandusen.html

You may be able to piece it together from these two accounts

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XEmilyX
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Re: The original 1840s temple endowment

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Of course we don't have the original endowment.....great.

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Niemand
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Re: The original 1840s temple endowment

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XEmilyX wrote: November 2nd, 2021, 5:47 am Of course we don't have the original endowment.....great.
I believe it could take up to five hours. It wasn't like the version ten years ago where you could do several a day. So if it does exist out there it must be very long!

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Re: The original 1840s temple endowment

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Luke wrote: October 30th, 2021, 2:24 pm There are plenty of Brigham-era and John Taylor-era ones available, but I don’t know of any 1840s ones. The Cutlerites still practice it but they do not share it with anyone.
Luke, it seems you were aware that no record of Joseph's original endowment exists.

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Re: The original 1840s temple endowment

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Does anyone know of any record of Joseph's original endowment?

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Mindfields
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Re: The original 1840s temple endowment

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 29th, 2022, 6:12 pm Does anyone know of any record of Joseph's original endowment?
No such thing. Entirely the invention of Brigham and his polygamist/masonic cronies.

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Re: The original 1840s temple endowment

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 29th, 2022, 6:12 pm Does anyone know of any record of Joseph's original endowment?
Here's one:

Letter from Heber C Kimball to Parley P. Pratt

Nauvoo. June the 17 1842

Dear Brother and sister <Pratt> Sister Ollive not forgoten by me. no I remember old friends. all though I have not writen to you fore some time, it has been on the acount of much buisness. I am well my family are tolerable fare. it is a time of helth in the City of Nauvoo. the Emegration is great here. they are coming in here from most Evry State in the union this place has grone half. since I got home the Temple is geting on well. all seem to be interested in the concern. thare is a great menny Brick buildings going up this season. thare is 7 or 8 Brick yards in this place. some have burnt thier kills this season. and men stand Ready to take evry brick as soon as they are cool. Brother Joseph feels as well as I Ever see him. one reason is he has got a small company. that he feels safe in thare hads. and that is not all he can open his bosom to and feel him self safe. I wish you was here so as to feel and hear fore your self. we have recieved some pressious things through the Prophet on the preast hood that would caus your Soul to rejoice I can not give them to you on paper fore they are not to be riten. So you must come and get them fore your self.—We have organised a Lodge here. of Masons. since we obtained a charter. that was in March since that thare has near two hundred been made masons[.] Br Joseph and Sidny was the first that was Recieved in to the Lodg. all of the twelve have become members Except Orson P. he Hangs back. he will wake up soon, thare is a similarity.of preast Hood in masonry. Br Joseph ses masonary was taken from preast Hood but has become degennated. but menny things are perfect. we have a prosession on the 24 of June which is cold by Masons St Johns day in this country. I think I think it will result in good. the Lord is with us and we are prosperd concidering all things. Money is scarce but provisions plen<ty> and cheap. the saints that come from England- have all got in to buisness , and the grater part of them have got places. those that have means to by with. by Lots. those that have not go and take up lots on a disputed tract of land that lays in the limets of the city. it cost nothing.fore them.proberly they will not be troubled fore sevrel years[.] they go on to the Island. whare they get thare timber to build with and burn. this land lays on the banck of the River. and store plenty by picking up. So what more can they ask but at the same time thare is <menny that finds falt and are ready to denigh the Lord and turn traters to thare Brethren Somm have found falt becaus we had no Housses fore them to go in when they got here. Some becaus we did not make more of them and invite them Home and provide fore them[.] we would be glad if they could know we have as much as <we> can do to live our selvs we are thronged all the day Long[.] we would Esteem it a pleasure to retire from the seas and rest our warry souls fore a time but this will not do. we must fite. Dear Br I can tell you our battle will be chort. and others will have to front the battle my dear wife send much love to you and wife, you have my best wishes. you have my pains. there is much Excitement in this county on the acount of our Election. we have nominated our own of Officers. and no doubt we shall Elect them this makes the delve made and I am glad. so amen. I am as Ever
Heber C. Kimball

Mr Parly P Pratt
Manchester
or Liverpool

http://jared.pratt-family.org/letter-to ... -1842.html

After receiving his endowment from Joseph Smith, Heber C. Kimball wrote a letter to Parley P. Pratt, who was serving a mission in England, telling him about his experience and urging him to come and receive this ordinance for himself. Heber described the endowment he had received from Joseph as follows: "I wish you [were] here so as to feel and hear for yourself. We have received some precious things through the Prophet on the priesthood that would cause your soul to rejoice. I cannot give them to you on paper for they are not to be written. So you must come and get them for yourself."

Notice how Heber said that he wished Parley were there so he could "feel and hear" for himself. Hmm, I wonder what it was that Heber "heard" and "felt?" Could it be the signs and tokens of the priesthood? I think so.

Just like the endowment today, "these precious things" about "the priesthood" were not to be written down, but must be received for one's self.

Heber also added "that there is a similarity in <the> priesthood [endowment ordinance] [and] masonry" and that "Joseph said <that> masonry was taken from priesthood [endowment ordinance] but has become degenerated, but many things are perfect."

Joseph was the one who introduced the "Masonic" endowment in Nauvoo. This same endowment was then adminstered to the general body of the saints by Brigham Young and the Twelve in the Nauvoo temple, and this same endowment (although changed somewhat over the years) is still adminstered in LDS temples today.

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Luke
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Re: The original 1840s temple endowment

Post by Luke »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 29th, 2022, 6:11 pm
Luke wrote: October 30th, 2021, 2:24 pm There are plenty of Brigham-era and John Taylor-era ones available, but I don’t know of any 1840s ones. The Cutlerites still practice it but they do not share it with anyone.
Luke, it seems you were aware that no record of Joseph's original endowment exists.
No complete record. We have references to it in letters, sermons, journals, exposes, etc.

I was half-wrong here. There are records of Joseph’s endowment. Not entirely complete, but decent enough.

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ransomme
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Re: The original 1840s temple endowment

Post by ransomme »

Niemand wrote: October 30th, 2021, 3:14 pm 1846
http://www.ldsendowment.org/emeline.html

1847
http://www.ldsendowment.org/vandusen.html

You may be able to piece it together from these two accounts
A few things come to mind upon reading these accounts which come two to three years after Joseph's death:

* The first temple ordinances, held in the upper room/Joseph's office in the Red Brick Store, could not have contained all the theatrics of those accounts
-So how much was added later?
-BY was known for flair and shall I say being over the top...
-We know that the creation story was a part of it, and the idea of progression and making AP and MP covenants

* The washing and anointings performed by Joseph and in Kirtland were different

* We know that BY added many things after Joseph died
-All the stuff about Joseph and Mormons
-The blood oath stuff, especially the anti-US stuff
-Adam-God Theory
-Really for all we know, everything outside of the core ceremonies and ideas was the product of BY
Last edited by ransomme on October 30th, 2022, 7:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The original 1840s temple endowment

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ransomme wrote: October 30th, 2022, 6:42 am
Niemand wrote: October 30th, 2021, 3:14 pm 1846
http://www.ldsendowment.org/emeline.html

1847
http://www.ldsendowment.org/vandusen.html

You may be able to piece it together from these two accounts
A few things come to mind reading upon these accounts which come two to three years after Joseph's death:

* The first temple ordinances, held in the upper room/Joseph's office in the Red Brick Store, could not have contained all the theatrics of those accounts
-So how much was added later?
-BY was known for flair and shall I say being over the top...
-We know that the creation story was a part of it, and the idea of progression and making AP and MP covenants

* The washing and anointings performed by Joseph and in Kirtland were different

* We know that BY added many things after Joseph died
-All the stuff about Joseph and Mormons
-The blood oath stuff, especially the anti-US stuff
-Adam-God Theory
-Really for all we know, everything outside of the core ceremonies and ideas was the product of BY
The signs and tokens and other "masonic" elements were clearly in the original endowment administered by Joseph Smith.

And this is what RW is trying to deny.

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ransomme
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Re: The original 1840s temple endowment

Post by ransomme »

LDS Watchman wrote: October 30th, 2022, 7:03 am
ransomme wrote: October 30th, 2022, 6:42 am
Niemand wrote: October 30th, 2021, 3:14 pm 1846
http://www.ldsendowment.org/emeline.html

1847
http://www.ldsendowment.org/vandusen.html

You may be able to piece it together from these two accounts
A few things come to mind reading upon these accounts which come two to three years after Joseph's death:

* The first temple ordinances, held in the upper room/Joseph's office in the Red Brick Store, could not have contained all the theatrics of those accounts
-So how much was added later?
-BY was known for flair and shall I say being over the top...
-We know that the creation story was a part of it, and the idea of progression and making AP and MP covenants

* The washing and anointings performed by Joseph and in Kirtland were different

* We know that BY added many things after Joseph died
-All the stuff about Joseph and Mormons
-The blood oath stuff, especially the anti-US stuff
-Adam-God Theory
-Really for all we know, everything outside of the core ceremonies and ideas was the product of BY
The signs and tokens and other "masonic" elements were clearly in the original endowment administered by Joseph Smith.

And this is what RW is trying to deny.
I am not referring to those. I put those in the core portion. I don't think those signs and tokens are or need to be specifically one thing. They aren't magical, they are for instruction. Physical ordinances profit nothing on their own anyhow.

BY's blood atonement penalties on the other hand.... all BY.

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Re: The original 1840s temple endowment

Post by LDS Watchman »

ransomme wrote: October 30th, 2022, 7:27 am
LDS Watchman wrote: October 30th, 2022, 7:03 am
ransomme wrote: October 30th, 2022, 6:42 am
Niemand wrote: October 30th, 2021, 3:14 pm 1846
http://www.ldsendowment.org/emeline.html

1847
http://www.ldsendowment.org/vandusen.html

You may be able to piece it together from these two accounts
A few things come to mind reading upon these accounts which come two to three years after Joseph's death:

* The first temple ordinances, held in the upper room/Joseph's office in the Red Brick Store, could not have contained all the theatrics of those accounts
-So how much was added later?
-BY was known for flair and shall I say being over the top...
-We know that the creation story was a part of it, and the idea of progression and making AP and MP covenants

* The washing and anointings performed by Joseph and in Kirtland were different

* We know that BY added many things after Joseph died
-All the stuff about Joseph and Mormons
-The blood oath stuff, especially the anti-US stuff
-Adam-God Theory
-Really for all we know, everything outside of the core ceremonies and ideas was the product of BY
The signs and tokens and other "masonic" elements were clearly in the original endowment administered by Joseph Smith.

And this is what RW is trying to deny.
I am not referring to those. I put those in the core portion. I don't think those signs and tokens are or need to be specifically one thing. They aren't magical, they are for instruction. Physical ordinances profit nothing on their own anyhow.

BY's blood atonement penalties on the other hand.... all BY.
You don't know that the penalty signs were all BY. That's an assumption on your part.

Plus RW is claiming that the signs and tokens, which clearly came from Joseph are connected to the penalty signs.

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Re: The original 1840s temple endowment

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

I think I may have found a kindred spirit in this woman. From the first link:

[This early description of the endowment was written by a former Nauvoo Mormon signing herself "Emeline." Emeline left Mormonism apparently because she was revolted by polygamy and disillusioned by the endowment, which she did not find as spiritually meaningful as she had hoped she would.]

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Niemand
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Re: The original 1840s temple endowment

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I agree with the comment above that the brick store version was probably less theatrical for purely practical reasons.

Not sure about the rest.

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inho
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Re: The original 1840s temple endowment

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XEmilyX wrote: November 2nd, 2021, 5:47 am Of course we don't have the original endowment.....great.
Joseph didn't write it down, it was transmitted only orally. So there are only exposées, and they were usually written down some time after the experience.

The word in the street is that Cutlerite endowment has remained unchanged. Since they branched as part of the succession crisis, that would really mean they have the original ceremony. There aren't many of them left, so the original endowment might get lost forever. It is also said that they haven't written it down either, so when the last Cutlerite dies no transcipt is left behind either.

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Re: The original 1840s temple endowment

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

inho wrote: October 30th, 2022, 9:26 am
XEmilyX wrote: November 2nd, 2021, 5:47 am Of course we don't have the original endowment.....great.
Joseph didn't write it down, it was transmitted only orally. So there are only exposées, and they were usually written down some time after the experience.

The word in the street is that Cutlerite endowment has remained unchanged. Since they branched as part of the succession crisis, that would really mean they have the original ceremony. There aren't many of them left, so the original endowment might get lost forever. It is also said that they haven't written it down either, so when the last Cutlerite dies no transcipt is left behind either.
Did anyone else think of the telephone game when discussing the Cutlerite's version of the endowment?

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inho
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Re: The original 1840s temple endowment

Post by inho »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 30th, 2022, 9:31 am
inho wrote: October 30th, 2022, 9:26 am Joseph didn't write it down, it was transmitted only orally. So there are only exposées, and they were usually written down some time after the experience.

The word in the street is that Cutlerite endowment has remained unchanged. Since they branched as part of the succession crisis, that would really mean they have the original ceremony. There aren't many of them left, so the original endowment might get lost forever. It is also said that they haven't written it down either, so when the last Cutlerite dies no transcipt is left behind either.
Did anyone else think of the telephone game when discussing the Cutlerite's version of the endowment?
Yes, especially now when the remaining few members are old. Even if they would get more converts, I wonder if the old people still accurately remember it. When there were more of them, they probably could together piece it together more reliably.

Anyway, the main point is that they do not trace their endowment through the Brighamite tradition, so even if a broken telephone, it is closer to the original than any script of any version of LDS endowment which we have.

If anyone is thinking of infiltrating Cutlerite church, that would be a long operation. They don't administrate the endowment unless you have been a faithful member already for years.

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Re: The original 1840s temple endowment

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I feel the core laws should be openly taught to our children from the time they are young. Little to nothing should be "secret" in the temple. The only worthiness questions should be, "Do you accept Christ as your Lord and Savior?" and "Now that you have been taught the laws and ordinances (in great detail I might add), are you willing to make a covenant to follow them?" The washing/anointing takes place, and then all the Laws and Ordinances are rehearsed again, questions are asked, clarity is sought, and the Spirit of God is invited to witness to truth. And, I would add the caveat that the laws and ordinances need to be taught in their purity. There is much lacking in the current endowment.

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Re: The original 1840s temple endowment

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 30th, 2022, 9:51 am I feel the core laws should be openly taught to our children from the time they are young. Little to nothing should be "secret" in the temple. The only worthiness questions should be, "Do you accept Christ as your Lord and Savior?" and "Now that you have been taught the laws and ordinances (in great detail I might add), are you willing to make a covenant to follow them?" The washing/anointing takes place, and then all the Laws and Ordinances are rehearsed again, questions are asked, clarity is sought, and the Spirit of God is invited to witness to truth. And, I would add the caveat that the laws and ordinances need to be taught in their purity. There is much lacking in the current endowment.
There is much scriptual precedent to disagree with parts of this. Moses on the mount, Christ and Peter, James and John on the Mount of Transfiguration, Joseph and Oliver behind the veil in the temple, Joseph in the grove, Christ's meetings with the Apostles - his sermons were public, his establishment of the ordinances were private.
Many things are attended to privately or with select groups of individuals and not public knowledge.

You're right that all should be allowed to know the temple "secrets". And they are, as soon as they are spiritually mature enough. That's why they aren't public. Not everyone who accepts Christ has reached the required preparedness. Even the devils recognize Christ as the Lord.

“The communications I made to this council were of things spiritual, and to be received only by the spiritual minded: and there was nothing made known to these men but what will be made known to all the Saints of the last days, so soon as they are prepared to receive, and a proper place is prepared to communicate them, even to the weakest of the Saints;" Joseph Smith

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Re: The original 1840s temple endowment

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

JLHPROF wrote: October 30th, 2022, 11:05 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 30th, 2022, 9:51 am I feel the core laws should be openly taught to our children from the time they are young. Little to nothing should be "secret" in the temple. The only worthiness questions should be, "Do you accept Christ as your Lord and Savior?" and "Now that you have been taught the laws and ordinances (in great detail I might add), are you willing to make a covenant to follow them?" The washing/anointing takes place, and then all the Laws and Ordinances are rehearsed again, questions are asked, clarity is sought, and the Spirit of God is invited to witness to truth. And, I would add the caveat that the laws and ordinances need to be taught in their purity. There is much lacking in the current endowment.
There is much scriptual precedent to disagree with parts of this. Moses on the mount, Christ and Peter, James and John on the Mount of Transfiguration, Joseph and Oliver behind the veil in the temple, Joseph in the grove, Christ's meetings with the Apostles - his sermons were public, his establishment of the ordinances were private.
Many things are attended to privately or with select groups of individuals and not public knowledge.

You're right that all should be allowed to know the temple "secrets". And they are, as soon as they are spiritually mature enough. That's why they aren't public. Not everyone who accepts Christ has reached the required preparedness. Even the devils recognize Christ as the Lord.

“The communications I made to this council were of things spiritual, and to be received only by the spiritual minded: and there was nothing made known to these men but what will be made known to all the Saints of the last days, so soon as they are prepared to receive, and a proper place is prepared to communicate them, even to the weakest of the Saints;" Joseph Smith
The core laws (4/5) should be taught to our children from their youth. Few, if any, members even know them today.

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Re: The original 1840s temple endowment

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XEmilyX wrote: October 30th, 2021, 2:19 pm Does anyone know where I can find this transcript? I've been searching and can find 1930s but not this early. I feel like it's truly very different than what we have now. I wanted to know about the washing of feet as well. I think this is a very sacred ordinance and I don't know why they got rid of it for the general public. Anyway, thanks!
Doesn't exist because it was not from YHWH through JS, but made up by Brigham Young with the help of other occult cultures.

Yes, yes, I know we can find ceremonies like those in LDS temples being done historically around the world. But that does not mean any of them were from God. Mystery Babylon has spread around the world. The ceremonies being performed in LDS / Brighamite temples are of the occult, which is of Mystery Babylon, and not of God. We can see how the works of darkness spread all over.

Helaman (LDS 6:28) (RLDS 2:154) … And it was that same being who led on the people who came from that tower into this land; who spread the works of darkness and abominations over all the face of the land, until he dragged the people down to an entire destruction, and to an everlasting hell.

If you ask me Joseph Smith was in the process of gathering evidence against Brigham Young to excommunicate him for his sins and crimes, which is why Brigham Young helped plan Joseph Smith’s murder, which is talked about in The Exoneration of Emma, Joseph & Hyrum: Part One along with “The Carthage Conspiracy” and Joseph Smith Was Murdered By Freemasons. (Knowing this I find verse Helaman (LDS 6:19) (RLDS 2:128) very telling, especially considering what is being described before and after it, not to mention Helaman (LDS 6:21) (RLDS 2:145).) When that was rooted out of me many other things started to make sense.

Helaman (LDS 6:19) (RLDS 2:128) And it was they [those with secret signs and words] who did murder the chief judge Cezoram [Joseph and Hyrum Smith], and his son [successor, Samuel Smith], while in the judgment-seat; and behold, they were not found.

If Helaman (LDS 6:22-27) (RLDS 2:146-152) does not sound like what happens in LDS Temples along with what members in politics and the law do to protecting the LDS / Brighamite church, and how and why many courts of love [of power] are conducted I don’t know what does. (see McKenna Denson a force for good for examples and Bishops are JUDGEs of Israel for explanation)

Helaman (LDS 6:22-27) (RLDS 2:146-152)
22 And it came to pass that they did have their SIGNS, yea, their SECRET SIGNS, and their SECRET WORDS; and this that they might DISTINGUISH a brother who had ENTERED into the COVENANT, that whatsoever wickedness his brother should do he SHOULD NOT BE INJURED BY HIS BROTHER [upholding their kingdom], nor by those who did belong to his band, who had taken this COVENANT. 23 And thus they might murder, and plunder, and steal, and commit WHOREDOMS and all manner of wickedness, CONTRARY to the LAWS of their COUNTRY and also the LAWS of their GOD. 24 And whosoever of those who BELONGED to their band should REVEAL unto the WORLD of their WICKEDNESS and their ABOMINATIONS, should be TRIED, not according to the laws of their country, BUT ACCORDING TO THE LAWS OF THEIR WICKEDNESS, which had been given by Gadianton and Kishkumen. 25 Now behold, it is these SECRET OATHS and COVENANTS which Alma commanded his son should not go forth unto the world, lest they should be a means of bringing down the people unto DESTRUCTION. 26 Now behold, those SECRET OATHS and COVENANTS did not come forth unto Gadianton from the records which were delivered unto Helaman; but behold, they were put into the heart of Gadianton by that same being who did entice our first parents to partake of the forbidden fruit— 27 Yea, that same being who did plot with Cain, that if he would murder his brother Abel it should not be known unto the world. And he did plot with Cain and his followers from that time forth.

Not to mention that the temple ceremonies that the sons of Aaron performed in the tabernacle, which later was done in the temple, were sacred but not secret as they written in the first five books of the Bible which are also known as the Torah.

https://seekingyhwh.org/2019/06/09/the- ... -the-same/

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Re: The original 1840s temple endowment

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

SJR3t2 wrote: October 31st, 2022, 2:41 pm Doesn't exist because it was not from YHWH through JS, but made up by Brigham Young with the help of other occult cultures.
If taught correctly, the four core laws are beautiful. I believe there is sufficient evidence to believe that some sort of temple endowment was occurring. I think simply stating that "nothing happen, it all originated with BY" is dismissing a lot of pretty verifiable church history.

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Re: The original 1840s temple endowment

Post by SJR3t2 »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 31st, 2022, 3:17 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: October 31st, 2022, 2:41 pm Doesn't exist because it was not from YHWH through JS, but made up by Brigham Young with the help of other occult cultures.
If taught correctly, the four core laws are beautiful. I believe there is sufficient evidence to believe that some sort of temple endowment was occurring. I think simply stating that "nothing happen, it all originated with BY" is dismissing a lot of pretty verifiable church history.
We disagree as there is much in the Brighamite temple ceremony that contradicts Torah and even the Sermon on the Mount / at the Temple.

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