Need help with Ether 3:17

[DJB]

I’m compiling scriptures about seeing the Lord with spiritual sight vs physical sight.

I’m having a hard time wrapping my brain around this verse. Ether 3:17

And now, as I, Moroni, said I could not make a full account of these things which are written, therefore it sufficeth me to say that Jesus showed himself unto this man in the spirit, even after the manner and in the likeness of the same body even as he showed himself unto the Nephites.

Is this scripture saying they witnessed Christ with their spiritual sight? Any thoughts or interpretations?

I’m confused in the fact that most if not all scriptures denote that the Father and the Son cannot be seen with the natural sight/mind..

D&C 67:10-12
​And again, verily I say unto you that it is your privilege, and a ​​​promise​ I give unto you that have been ordained unto this ministry, that inasmuch as you ​​​strip​ yourselves from ​​​jealousies​ and ​​​fears​, and ​​​humble​ yourselves before me, for ye are not sufficiently humble, the ​​​veil​ shall be rent and you shall ​​​see​ me and know that I am—not with the carnal neither natural mind, but with the spiritual.
​​​11 ​For no ​​​man​ has seen God at any time in the flesh, except quickened by the Spirit of God.
​​​12 ​Neither can any ​​​natural man​ abide the presence of God, neither after the carnal mind.

Another question

How were the apostles able to see Christ in the flesh after his resurrection after considering the above scripture? Any thoughts?

Why am I asking for help?

My many encounters with Jesus Christ and angels have been with my spiritual sight excluding one experience which I won’t go into, but I was able to feel their spirit bodies with mine. Trying to make sense of seeing with the spirit vs the natural sight.

Thanks in advance

[ransomme]

IMO it was with physical eyes, the reference to Spirit is because the Lord had not yet come to earth and taken a body yet, so he appeared as a spirit that looked like his future mortal self.

[DJB]

IMO it was with physical eyes, the reference to Spirit is because the Lord had not yet come to earth and taken a body yet, so he appeared as a spirit that looked like his future mortal self.

Ether 3:6
And it came to pass that when the brother of Jared had said these words, behold, the Lord stretched forth his hand and touched the stones one by one with his finger. And the veil was taken from off the eyes of the brother of Jared, and he saw the finger of the Lord; and it was as the finger of a man, like unto flesh and blood; and the brother of Jared fell down before the Lord, for he was struck with fear.

From other scriptures and this It denotes the brother of Jared saw which his spiritual sight, because the veil was taken from his eyes. The veil is the physical body.

My question is did the Nephites view the saviour with natural or spiritual sight at Bountiful?

[Bronco73idi]

IMO it was with physical eyes, the reference to Spirit is because the Lord had not yet come to earth and taken a body yet, so he appeared as a spirit that looked like his future mortal self.

Ether 3:6
And it came to pass that when the brother of Jared had said these words, behold, the Lord stretched forth his hand and touched the stones one by one with his finger. And the veil was taken from off the eyes of the brother of Jared, and he saw the finger of the Lord; and it was as the finger of a man, like unto flesh and blood; and the brother of Jared fell down before the Lord, for he was struck with fear.

From other scriptures and this It denotes the brother of Jared saw which his spiritual sight, because the veil was taken from his eyes. The veil is the physical body.

My question is did the Nephites view the saviour with natural or spiritual sight at Bountiful?

The brother of Jared saw the lord’s finger, not his whole personage.

The Nephites in 3 Nephi 11 Jesus appears to them in his body as he appeared to his apostles in Jerusalem.

[BenMcCrea]

Humans cannot see spirits, radio waves, electricity, gasses - lots of things made up of finer matter. Our visual spectrum is quite narrow. We can’t actually see an awful lot of things. The Brother of Jared had the veil taken from his eyes and was able to see the Lord as a Spirit. We don’t know how that was done but we do know that the Lord would have been able to command the individual particles that made up the man’s eye to reorganise to enable him to see.

When Christ came as a resurrected physical being he would have been seen by humans with their normal eyes. We can see other physical beings. The Lord obviously didn’t come in his full glory. That would have overpowered the humans and probably destroyed them. We are corrupt, fallen beings. We cannot stand the glory and power of celestial beings.

[DJB]

IMO it was with physical eyes, the reference to Spirit is because the Lord had not yet come to earth and taken a body yet, so he appeared as a spirit that looked like his future mortal self.

Ether 3:6
And it came to pass that when the brother of Jared had said these words, behold, the Lord stretched forth his hand and touched the stones one by one with his finger. And the veil was taken from off the eyes of the brother of Jared, and he saw the finger of the Lord; and it was as the finger of a man, like unto flesh and blood; and the brother of Jared fell down before the Lord, for he was struck with fear.

From other scriptures and this It denotes the brother of Jared saw which his spiritual sight, because the veil was taken from his eyes. The veil is the physical body.

My question is did the Nephites view the saviour with natural or spiritual sight at Bountiful?

The brother of Jared saw the lord’s finger, not his whole personage.

The Nephites in 3 Nephi 11 Jesus appears to them in his body as he appeared to his apostles in Jerusalem.

But Ether 3:13 says otherwise right?

And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.

[DJB]

Humans cannot see spirits, radio waves, electricity, gasses - lots of things made up of finer matter. Our visual spectrum is quite narrow. We can’t actually see an awful lot of things. The Brother of Jared had the veil taken from his eyes and was able to see the Lord as a Spirit. We don’t know how that was done but we do know that the Lord would have been able to command the individual particles that made up the man’s eye to reorganise to enable him to see.

When Christ came as a resurrected physical being he would have been seen by humans with their normal eyes. We can see other physical beings. The Lord obviously didn’t come in his full glory. That would have overpowered the humans and probably destroyed them. We are corrupt, fallen beings. We cannot stand the glory and power of celestial beings.

I agree, we see what resonates on the same frequency, or something close within that spectrum of light. Most likely able to interact with the same also.

Why do the scriptures say we cannot view God with our natural eyes then?

This is where I’m having trouble understanding. Scriptures say one thing but we have the apostles eating and drinking with the resurrected Lord.

Ether 3:17 seems to denote that Christ visited the Nephites at Bountiful with his spirit body, not resurrected body.

Moses 1:11

But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him.

Moses 1:14

For behold, I could not look upon God, except his glory should come upon me, and I were transfigured before him. But I can look upon thee in the natural man. Is it not so, surely?

[abijah]

Moroni 7
48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.

[ransomme]

IMO it was with physical eyes, the reference to Spirit is because the Lord had not yet come to earth and taken a body yet, so he appeared as a spirit that looked like his future mortal self.

Ether 3:6
And it came to pass that when the brother of Jared had said these words, behold, the Lord stretched forth his hand and touched the stones one by one with his finger. And the veil was taken from off the eyes of the brother of Jared, and he saw the finger of the Lord; and it was as the finger of a man, like unto flesh and blood; and the brother of Jared fell down before the Lord, for he was struck with fear.

From other scriptures and this It denotes the brother of Jared saw which his spiritual sight, because the veil was taken from his eyes. The veil is the physical body.

My question is did the Nephites view the saviour with natural or spiritual sight at Bountiful?

The brother of Jared saw the lord’s finger, not his whole personage.

The Nephites in 3 Nephi 11 Jesus appears to them in his body as he appeared to his apostles in Jerusalem.

He showed his whole self, read Ether 3: 9-13 again

9And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?
10And he answered: Nay; Lord, show thyself unto me.
11And the Lord said unto him: Believest thou the words which I shall speak?
12And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie.
13And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.

[DJB]

IMO it was with physical eyes, the reference to Spirit is because the Lord had not yet come to earth and taken a body yet, so he appeared as a spirit that looked like his future mortal self.

Ether 3:6
And it came to pass that when the brother of Jared had said these words, behold, the Lord stretched forth his hand and touched the stones one by one with his finger. And the veil was taken from off the eyes of the brother of Jared, and he saw the finger of the Lord; and it was as the finger of a man, like unto flesh and blood; and the brother of Jared fell down before the Lord, for he was struck with fear.

From other scriptures and this It denotes the brother of Jared saw which his spiritual sight, because the veil was taken from his eyes. The veil is the physical body.

My question is did the Nephites view the saviour with natural or spiritual sight at Bountiful?

The brother of Jared saw the lord’s finger, not his whole personage.

The Nephites in 3 Nephi 11 Jesus appears to them in his body as he appeared to his apostles in Jerusalem.

He showed his whole self, read Ether 3: 9-13 again

9And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?
10And he answered: Nay; Lord, show thyself unto me.
11And the Lord said unto him: Believest thou the words which I shall speak?
12And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie.
13And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.

Yes, misunderstanding. I only wrote that because I thought you were saying he only saw his finger and not his whole body.

[ransomme]

Humans cannot see spirits, radio waves, electricity, gasses - lots of things made up of finer matter. Our visual spectrum is quite narrow. We can’t actually see an awful lot of things. The Brother of Jared had the veil taken from his eyes and was able to see the Lord as a Spirit. We don’t know how that was done but we do know that the Lord would have been able to command the individual particles that made up the man’s eye to reorganise to enable him to see.

When Christ came as a resurrected physical being he would have been seen by humans with their normal eyes. We can see other physical beings. The Lord obviously didn’t come in his full glory. That would have overpowered the humans and probably destroyed them. We are corrupt, fallen beings. We cannot stand the glory and power of celestial beings.

I agree, we see what resonates on the same frequency, or something close within that spectrum of light. Most likely able to interact with the same also.

Why do the scriptures say we cannot view God with our natural eyes then?

This is where I’m having trouble understanding. Scriptures say one thing but we have the apostles eating and drinking with the resurrected Lord.

Ether 3:17 seems to denote that Christ visited the Nephites at Bountiful with his spirit body, not resurrected body.

Moses 1:11

But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him.

Moses 1:14

For behold, I could not look upon God, except his glory should come upon me, and I were transfigured before him. But I can look upon thee in the natural man. Is it not so, surely?

I would disagree, these were face to face experiences.

They may have been temporarily quickened by the Spirit, but the Nephites had a physical experience.

3 Nephi 11
14Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.
15And it came to pass that the multitude went forth, and thrust their hands into his side, and did feel the prints of the nails in his hands and in his feet; and this they did do, going forth one by one until they had all gone forth, and did see with their eyes and did feel with their hands, and did know of a surety and did bear record, that it was he, of whom it was written by the prophets, that should come.
16And when they had all gone forth and had witnessed for themselves, they did cry out with one accord, saying:
17Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did worship him.

[nightlight]

IMO it was with physical eyes, the reference to Spirit is because the Lord had not yet come to earth and taken a body yet, so he appeared as a spirit that looked like his future mortal self.

Ether 3:6
And it came to pass that when the brother of Jared had said these words, behold, the Lord stretched forth his hand and touched the stones one by one with his finger. And the veil was taken from off the eyes of the brother of Jared, and he saw the finger of the Lord; and it was as the finger of a man, like unto flesh and blood; and the brother of Jared fell down before the Lord, for he was struck with fear.

From other scriptures and this It denotes the brother of Jared saw which his spiritual sight, because the veil was taken from his eyes. The veil is the physical body.

My question is did the Nephites view the saviour with natural or spiritual sight at Bountiful?

The brother of Jared saw the lord’s finger, not his whole personage.

The Nephites in 3 Nephi 11 Jesus appears to them in his body as he appeared to his apostles in Jerusalem.

No....if you keep reading.........he sees his whole personage. It's kinda the whole point of the exchange.

And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me aflesh and blood; and never has man come before me with bsuch exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?

10 And he answered: Nay; Lord, ashow thyself unto me.

11 And the Lord said unto him: aBelievest thou the words which I shall speak?

12 And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and acanst not lie.

13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord ashowed himself unto him, and said: bBecause thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my cpresence; therefore I show myself unto you.

[nightlight]

Humans cannot see spirits, radio waves, electricity, gasses - lots of things made up of finer matter. Our visual spectrum is quite narrow. We can’t actually see an awful lot of things. The Brother of Jared had the veil taken from his eyes and was able to see the Lord as a Spirit. We don’t know how that was done but we do know that the Lord would have been able to command the individual particles that made up the man’s eye to reorganise to enable him to see.

When Christ came as a resurrected physical being he would have been seen by humans with their normal eyes. We can see other physical beings. The Lord obviously didn’t come in his full glory. That would have overpowered the humans and probably destroyed them. We are corrupt, fallen beings. We cannot stand the glory and power of celestial beings.

I agree, we see what resonates on the same frequency, or something close within that spectrum of light. Most likely able to interact with the same also.

Why do the scriptures say we cannot view God with our natural eyes then?

This is where I’m having trouble understanding. Scriptures say one thing but we have the apostles eating and drinking with the resurrected Lord.

Ether 3:17 seems to denote that Christ visited the Nephites at Bountiful with his spirit body, not resurrected body.

Moses 1:11

But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him.

Moses 1:14

For behold, I could not look upon God, except his glory should come upon me, and I were transfigured before him. But I can look upon thee in the natural man. Is it not so, surely?

They literally feel his body

You simply are not understanding the scriptures you are referencing.

[Bronco73idi]

This is a perfect example of remembering bits and pieces. Thank you for the correction. Needless to say I don’t have the answer

[DJB]

Humans cannot see spirits, radio waves, electricity, gasses - lots of things made up of finer matter. Our visual spectrum is quite narrow. We can’t actually see an awful lot of things. The Brother of Jared had the veil taken from his eyes and was able to see the Lord as a Spirit. We don’t know how that was done but we do know that the Lord would have been able to command the individual particles that made up the man’s eye to reorganise to enable him to see.

When Christ came as a resurrected physical being he would have been seen by humans with their normal eyes. We can see other physical beings. The Lord obviously didn’t come in his full glory. That would have overpowered the humans and probably destroyed them. We are corrupt, fallen beings. We cannot stand the glory and power of celestial beings.

I agree, we see what resonates on the same frequency, or something close within that spectrum of light. Most likely able to interact with the same also.

Why do the scriptures say we cannot view God with our natural eyes then?

This is where I’m having trouble understanding. Scriptures say one thing but we have the apostles eating and drinking with the resurrected Lord.

Ether 3:17 seems to denote that Christ visited the Nephites at Bountiful with his spirit body, not resurrected body.

Moses 1:11

But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him.

Moses 1:14

For behold, I could not look upon God, except his glory should come upon me, and I were transfigured before him. But I can look upon thee in the natural man. Is it not so, surely?

They literally feel his body

You simply are not understanding the scriptures you are referencing.

Read Ether 3:17 again and wouldn’t you think it’s saying that Christ visited the Nephites in the same manner as he did the brother of Jared?

When your in the spirit you can feel another spirit.

I believe Christ was in his resurrected body when visiting his disciples in the New Testament, but I’m just wondering about these scriptures that say we cannot see God in the flesh unless being quickened

Quickened allows us to see, feel with our spiritual sight/body

[ransomme]

Humans cannot see spirits, radio waves, electricity, gasses - lots of things made up of finer matter. Our visual spectrum is quite narrow. We can’t actually see an awful lot of things. The Brother of Jared had the veil taken from his eyes and was able to see the Lord as a Spirit. We don’t know how that was done but we do know that the Lord would have been able to command the individual particles that made up the man’s eye to reorganise to enable him to see.

When Christ came as a resurrected physical being he would have been seen by humans with their normal eyes. We can see other physical beings. The Lord obviously didn’t come in his full glory. That would have overpowered the humans and probably destroyed them. We are corrupt, fallen beings. We cannot stand the glory and power of celestial beings.

I agree, we see what resonates on the same frequency, or something close within that spectrum of light. Most likely able to interact with the same also.

Why do the scriptures say we cannot view God with our natural eyes then?

This is where I’m having trouble understanding. Scriptures say one thing but we have the apostles eating and drinking with the resurrected Lord.

Ether 3:17 seems to denote that Christ visited the Nephites at Bountiful with his spirit body, not resurrected body.

Moses 1:11

But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him.

Moses 1:14

For behold, I could not look upon God, except his glory should come upon me, and I were transfigured before him. But I can look upon thee in the natural man. Is it not so, surely?

They literally feel his body

You simply are not understanding the scriptures you are referencing.

Read Ether 3:17 again and wouldn’t you think it’s saying that Christ visited the Nephites in the same manner as he did the brother of Jared?

When your in the spirit you can feel another spirit.

I believe Christ was in his resurrected body when visiting his disciples in the New Testament, but I’m just wondering about these scriptures that say we cannot see God in the flesh unless being quickened

Quickened allows us to see, feel with our spiritual sight/body

No it's a change to the physical body, like a temporary translation. A transfiguration.