Make not gods of your prophets

[LDS Watchman]

The OP directly addressed how we should approach those who are truly anointed.

So why do you keep trying to use RMN, a man who you don't believe is truly anointed to try and bolster your claims in the OP?

Why not use Joseph Smith, since you keep saying you believe he taught falsehoods, including in his revelations?

[abijah]

I”m not just talking about “false” prophets. The scriptures are plentiful about those. So is this record btw. Lots of info on false prophets. The OP directly addressed how we should approach those who are truly anointed.

lol no one in the ancient world ever worshipped prophets as gods nor regarded them as idol images. as ive been saying, the mere concept of doing anything like that would've been an utterly bizarre, alien idea to them. because this fabricated nemenhah text is addressing a modern paradigm and phenomenon, not an ancient one. Rather, the purpose of any prophet ('true', or 'false') is to direct worship to a particular god/deity, and capable of channeling/revealing the will of said deity by speaking as its mouthpiece.

No one worshipped prophets. Literally ever. Though many fell into idolatrous worshipped because of false prophets, who's object was/is to divert one's devotion & allegiance to strange, foreign gods. for example, like the pagan prophets of elijah's day --->

1 Kings 18
And Elijah answered, “I have not troubled Israel, but you have, and your father's house, because you have abandoned the commandments of the LORD and followed the Baals.
Now therefore send and gather all Israel to me at Mount Carmel, and the 450 prophets of Baal and the 400 prophets of Asherah, who eat at Jezebel's table."
So Ahab sent to all the people of Israel and gathered the prophets together at Mount Carmel.
And Elijah came near to all the people and said, “How long will you go limping between two different opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Baal, then follow him.” And the people did not answer him a word.
Then Elijah said to the people, “I, even I only, am left a prophet of the LORD, but Baal's prophets are 450 men..
And you call upon the name of your god, and I will call upon the name of the LORD, and the God who answers by fire, he is God.” And all the people answered, “It is well spoken.”

[Reluctant Watchman]

I”m not just talking about “false” prophets. The scriptures are plentiful about those. So is this record btw. Lots of info on false prophets. The OP directly addressed how we should approach those who are truly anointed.

lol no one in the ancient world ever worshipped prophets as gods nor regarded them as idol images. as ive been saying, the mere concept of doing anything like that would've been an utterly bizarre, alien idea to them. because this fabricated nemenhah text is addressing a modern paradigm and phenomenon, not an ancient one. Rather, the purpose of any prophet ('true', or 'false') is to direct worship to a particular god/deity, and capable of channeling/revealing the will of said deity by speaking as its mouthpiece.

No one worshipped prophets. Literally ever. Though many fell into idolatrous worshipped because of false prophets, who's object was/is to divert one's devotion & allegiance to strange, foreign gods. for example, like the pagan prophets of elijah's day --->

1 Kings 18
And Elijah answered, “I have not troubled Israel, but you have, and your father's house, because you have abandoned the commandments of the LORD and followed the Baals.
Now therefore send and gather all Israel to me at Mount Carmel, and the 450 prophets of Baal and the 400 prophets of Asherah, who eat at Jezebel's table."
So Ahab sent to all the people of Israel and gathered the prophets together at Mount Carmel.
And Elijah came near to all the people and said, “How long will you go limping between two different opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Baal, then follow him.” And the people did not answer him a word.
Then Elijah said to the people, “I, even I only, am left a prophet of the LORD, but Baal's prophets are 450 men..
And you call upon the name of your god, and I will call upon the name of the LORD, and the God who answers by fire, he is God.” And all the people answered, “It is well spoken.”

Have you read the Nemenhah Record?

[abijah]

Have you read the Nemenhah Record?

Just what's been pasted in this thread. Valuable time i won't get back im afraid.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Have you read the Nemenhah Record?

Just what's been pasted in this thread. Valuable time i won't get back im afraid.

Funny you keep wasting your valuable time by responding.

[abijah]

Funny you keep wasting your valuable time by responding.

bruh im all about the drama

[Joan7]

Have you read the Nemenhah Record?

Just what's been pasted in this thread. Valuable time i won't get back im afraid.

Funny you keep wasting your valuable time by responding.

Reluctant, why do you keep trying to reason with people that are not willing to listen? There comes a point, when God probably gives you permission to get off that wall, so that you don't have to get arrows and stones thrown at you any more. So many threads on this site end in a useless cycle rehashing the same things over and over. It doesn't help you, it doesn't help them. Study new things and introduce new topics, to perhaps a different group of readers. Then, maybe there will be someone new come along and find a precious truth that will help them.

[ransomme]

But that wasn't the claim.

This was the OP quote: “ 40) The Prophet of the Peacemaker is given great gifts of the Holy Ghost. Yea, he may speak with the tongues of Angels and with them, and, if he has the gift of the seer, he may translate strange languages.”

Your claim: “… there was an interesting mistake in the portion you quoted. A Seer isn't a translator.”

The BoM: “ 13 Now Ammon said unto him: I can assuredly tell thee, O king, of a man that can translate the records; for he has wherewith that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date; and it is a gift from God.
14 And behold, the king of the people who are in the land of Zarahemla is the man that is commanded to do these things, and who has this high gift from God.“ Then he goes on the describe this gift that is given to a “seer.”

He is literally talking about the gift of translation that is given to a seer.

If you don’t see it that way, whatever.

I believe you're misunderstanding the scripture. The gift is the ability to translate. You don't have to be a Seer in order to translate. You are conflating the two.

The Urim and Thummin are literally called seer stones, interpreters and it is specifically listed in parallel with "gift" and "seer".

I must say that you are being thick on this one.

[Robin Hood]

But that wasn't the claim.

This was the OP quote: “ 40) The Prophet of the Peacemaker is given great gifts of the Holy Ghost. Yea, he may speak with the tongues of Angels and with them, and, if he has the gift of the seer, he may translate strange languages.”

Your claim: “… there was an interesting mistake in the portion you quoted. A Seer isn't a translator.”

The BoM: “ 13 Now Ammon said unto him: I can assuredly tell thee, O king, of a man that can translate the records; for he has wherewith that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date; and it is a gift from God.
14 And behold, the king of the people who are in the land of Zarahemla is the man that is commanded to do these things, and who has this high gift from God.“ Then he goes on the describe this gift that is given to a “seer.”

He is literally talking about the gift of translation that is given to a seer.

If you don’t see it that way, whatever.

I believe you're misunderstanding the scripture. The gift is the ability to translate. You don't have to be a Seer in order to translate. You are conflating the two.

The Urim and Thummin are literally called seer stones, interpreters and it is specifically listed in parallel with "gift" and "seer".

I must say that you are being thick on this one.

The Urim & Thummim are not the same thing as seer stones. We have Joseph's seer stone in SLC. But the U&T were with the plates and were returned to Moroni. They came to America via the Jaredites and were found by the Nephites. (see Lost 116 Pages - Bradley).
Joseph's seer stone had absolutely nothing to do with the Urim & Thummin.
I won't accuse you of being thick, but this is basic Mormonism 101.

[ransomme]

I”m not just talking about “false” prophets. The scriptures are plentiful about those. So is this record btw. Lots of info on false prophets. The OP directly addressed how we should approach those who are truly anointed.

lol no one in the ancient world ever worshipped prophets as gods nor regarded them as idol images. as ive been saying, the mere concept of doing anything like that would've been an utterly bizarre, alien idea to them. because this fabricated nemenhah text is addressing a modern paradigm and phenomenon, not an ancient one. Rather, the purpose of any prophet ('true', or 'false') is to direct worship to a particular god/deity, and capable of channeling/revealing the will of said deity by speaking as its mouthpiece.

No one worshipped prophets. Literally ever. Though many fell into idolatrous worshipped because of false prophets, who's object was/is to divert one's devotion & allegiance to strange, foreign gods. for example, like the pagan prophets of elijah's day --->

1 Kings 18
And Elijah answered, “I have not troubled Israel, but you have, and your father's house, because you have abandoned the commandments of the LORD and followed the Baals.
Now therefore send and gather all Israel to me at Mount Carmel, and the 450 prophets of Baal and the 400 prophets of Asherah, who eat at Jezebel's table."
So Ahab sent to all the people of Israel and gathered the prophets together at Mount Carmel.
And Elijah came near to all the people and said, “How long will you go limping between two different opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Baal, then follow him.” And the people did not answer him a word.
Then Elijah said to the people, “I, even I only, am left a prophet of the LORD, but Baal's prophets are 450 men..
And you call upon the name of your god, and I will call upon the name of the LORD, and the God who answers by fire, he is God.” And all the people answered, “It is well spoken.”

I think your definition of worship is too narrow, especially considering modern idolatry.

Not to mention there are different levels of idolization and "worship". RMN is easily held up as an idol, even a replacement for God, "Come follow (not Me/Christ) the prophet".

[Jonesy]

Is there a free e-copy of this book somewhere?

[ransomme]

This was the OP quote: “ 40) The Prophet of the Peacemaker is given great gifts of the Holy Ghost. Yea, he may speak with the tongues of Angels and with them, and, if he has the gift of the seer, he may translate strange languages.”

Your claim: “… there was an interesting mistake in the portion you quoted. A Seer isn't a translator.”

The BoM: “ 13 Now Ammon said unto him: I can assuredly tell thee, O king, of a man that can translate the records; for he has wherewith that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date; and it is a gift from God.
14 And behold, the king of the people who are in the land of Zarahemla is the man that is commanded to do these things, and who has this high gift from God.“ Then he goes on the describe this gift that is given to a “seer.”

He is literally talking about the gift of translation that is given to a seer.

If you don’t see it that way, whatever.

I believe you're misunderstanding the scripture. The gift is the ability to translate. You don't have to be a Seer in order to translate. You are conflating the two.

The Urim and Thummin are literally called seer stones, interpreters and it is specifically listed in parallel with "gift" and "seer".

I must say that you are being thick on this one.

The Urim & Thummim are not the same thing as seer stones. We have Joseph's seer stone in SLC. But the U&T were with the plates and were returned to Moroni. They came to America via the Jaredites and were found by the Nephites. (see Lost 116 Pages - Bradley).
Joseph's seer stone had absolutely nothing to do with the Urim & Thummin.
I won't accuse you of being thick, but this is basic Mormonism 101.

Sorry for the confusion, but yes and no. Although, I think you must be acting dense on purpose. I was not referencing those other stones.

I'll explain further...

The interpreters, aka The Urim and Thummin (D&C 17), spoken of in Mosiah came from the 16 STONES that the brother of Jared had the Lord touch. Those interpreters are STONES that were only to be used by a Seer. Mosiah was a Seer and Joseph was a Seer. The STONES or interpreters or Urim and Thummin that those two Seers used can reasonably be called seer stones colloquially. Sorry that you couldn't put two and two together. Maybe that's Mormonism 201

[Robin Hood]

I believe you're misunderstanding the scripture. The gift is the ability to translate. You don't have to be a Seer in order to translate. You are conflating the two.

The Urim and Thummin are literally called seer stones, interpreters and it is specifically listed in parallel with "gift" and "seer".

I must say that you are being thick on this one.

The Urim & Thummim are not the same thing as seer stones. We have Joseph's seer stone in SLC. But the U&T were with the plates and were returned to Moroni. They came to America via the Jaredites and were found by the Nephites. (see Lost 116 Pages - Bradley).
Joseph's seer stone had absolutely nothing to do with the Urim & Thummin.
I won't accuse you of being thick, but this is basic Mormonism 101.

Sorry for the confusion, but yes and no. Although, I think you must be acting dense on purpose. I was not referencing those other stones.

I'll explain further...

The interpreters, aka The Urim and Thummin (D&C 17), spoken of in Mosiah came from the 16 STONES that the brother of Jared had the Lord touch. Those interpreters are STONES that were only to be used by a Seer. Mosiah was a Seer and Joseph was a Seer. The STONES or interpreters or Urim and Thummin that those two Seers used can reasonably be called seer stones colloquially. Sorry that you couldn't put two and two together. Maybe that's Mormonism 201

A seer does not need stones.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Is there a free e-copy of this book somewhere?

There are free versions online, but I'll send you some information later today in a PM.

[Reluctant Watchman]

A seer does not need stones.

RH, in Mosiah 8, the "interpreters" are specifically referenced in conjunction with the capacity of a seer to translate:

"13 Now Ammon said unto him: I can assuredly tell thee, O king, of a man that can translate the records; for he has wherewith that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date; and it is a gift from God. And the things are called interpreters (U&T), and no man can look in them except he be commanded, lest he should look for that he ought not and he should perish. And whosoever is commanded to look in them, the same is called seer."

A seer uses interpreters as part of the gift of translation. Ransomme was referring to these interpreters.

In the OP, neither a stone nor an interpreter is alluded to but is simply referenced as a gift from God. So either way, especially according to your logic, the OP is correct:

"40) The Prophet of the Peacemaker is given great gifts of the Holy Ghost. Yea, he may speak with the tongues of Angels and with them, and, if he has the gift of the seer, he may translate strange languages."

[Reluctant Watchman]

Reluctant, why do you keep trying to reason with people that are not willing to listen? There comes a point, when God probably gives you permission to get off that wall, so that you don't have to get arrows and stones thrown at you any more. So many threads on this site end in a useless cycle rehashing the same things over and over. It doesn't help you, it doesn't help them. Study new things and introduce new topics, to perhaps a different group of readers. Then, maybe there will be someone new come along and find a precious truth that will help them.

Often my intended audience is not them, but other people who are reading. I don't mind doing a bit of framing from a variety of angles to try and clarify a concept. And sure, I highly doubt they care about my reasoning. And I did stop responding to one poster above because he kept repeating the same question, but was trying to twist my words, even after I gave a clear answer previously. I do subscribe to the tenets presented in D&C 121, although I'm deficient in a few of these principles:

41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—

43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;

[ransomme]

The Urim and Thummin are literally called seer stones, interpreters and it is specifically listed in parallel with "gift" and "seer".

I must say that you are being thick on this one.

The Urim & Thummim are not the same thing as seer stones. We have Joseph's seer stone in SLC. But the U&T were with the plates and were returned to Moroni. They came to America via the Jaredites and were found by the Nephites. (see Lost 116 Pages - Bradley).
Joseph's seer stone had absolutely nothing to do with the Urim & Thummin.
I won't accuse you of being thick, but this is basic Mormonism 101.

Sorry for the confusion, but yes and no. Although, I think you must be acting dense on purpose. I was not referencing those other stones.

I'll explain further...

The interpreters, aka The Urim and Thummin (D&C 17), spoken of in Mosiah came from the 16 STONES that the brother of Jared had the Lord touch. Those interpreters are STONES that were only to be used by a Seer. Mosiah was a Seer and Joseph was a Seer. The STONES or interpreters or Urim and Thummin that those two Seers used can reasonably be called seer stones colloquially. Sorry that you couldn't put two and two together. Maybe that's Mormonism 201

A seer does not need stones.

So you are saying that Joseph wasn't a Seer. That is exactly what you are saying.

Go back and look how many times Joseph used the interpreter stones, the Urim and the Thummin to ask and receive answers. Go count how many revelations came by those same stones.

Mormonism 101, it's quite elementary

[Luke]

“Dec. 27, 1841: I met with the Twelve at Brother Joseph’s. He conversed with us in a familiar manner on a variety of subjects, and explained to us the Urim and Thummim which he found with the plates, called in the Book of Mormon the Interpreters. He said that every man who lived on the earth was entitled to a seer stone, and should have one, but they are kept from them in consequence of their wickedness, and most of those who do find one make an evil use of it; he showed us his seer stone.” (Manuscript History of Brigham Young, 27 December 1841, CHL)

[Reluctant Watchman]

A few weeks ago I was reading with the kids and the language used to create the original records was referenced. I'm going off of memory here, but the author said that these people wrote in their native language, which was easier to both be written and understood. Whereas he said some of the records from the people in the South (Nephites) were written in a different language than their native tongue, which we know today as Reformed Egyptian. There is a reason this record doesn't read exactly like the BoM or the Bible.

[JLHPROF]

All of those words, yet you still can’t find another written text that explains it so plainly. Still… waiting…

This is what the real scriptures say about false prophets -

Jeremiah 23
And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err...
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.

Deuteronomy 18
But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

And btw, your only argument that this is a modern text is because you think it is. That doesn’t fly in my book.

im still 100% correct, irregardless what you think

I”m not just talking about “false” prophets. The scriptures are plentiful about those. So is this record btw. Lots of info on false prophets. The OP directly addressed how we should approach those who are truly anointed.

Helaman 13:26 Behold ye are worse than they; for as the Lord liveth, if a prophet come among you and declareth unto you the word of the Lord, which testifieth of your sins and iniquities, ye are angry with him, and cast him out and seek all manner of ways to destroy him; yea, you will say that he is a false prophet, and that he is a sinner, and of the devil, because he testifieth that your deeds are evil.

Matt 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Helaman 13:26 Behold ye are worse than they; for as the Lord liveth, if a prophet come among you and declareth unto you the word of the Lord, which testifieth of your sins and iniquities, ye are angry with him, and cast him out and seek all manner of ways to destroy him; yea, you will say that he is a false prophet, and that he is a sinner, and of the devil, because he testifieth that your deeds are evil.

Matt 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

I'm so glad we have "true" prophets to guide us along and follow "wise and thoughtful" government leaders. Thank you for this reminder. I feel very safe now. A very effective message indeed.

Since you obviously find great joy deep inside your soul through quoting scripture, I figured I should add my own:

Jeremiah 23
20 The anger of the Lord shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.

21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Wouldn't you know it, Jeremiah just keeps going, and going, and going...

22 But if they (that's special code language for prophets) had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings. (Please also note the words "if" and "had" in this verse, those are significant.)

23 Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off?

24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.

25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies (I don't think he's using that term in a positive light here.) in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.

26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart; (Ouch, that one kind of hits close to home.)

27 Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.

28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the Lord.

29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that steal my words every one from his neighbour. (Good thing the church leaders today quote the Savior more than they like to quote RMN... oh, wait...)

31 Behold, I am against the prophets, (I don't think he realy meant that, he was just joking) saith the Lord, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.

32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the Lord, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the Lord. (Oh, maybe he did mean what he said earlier)

33 ¶ And when this people, or the prophet, or a priest, shall ask thee, saying, What is the burden of the Lord? thou shalt then say unto them, What burden? I will even forsake you, saith the Lord.

34 And as for the prophet, and the priest, and the people, that shall say, The burden of the Lord, I will even punish that man and his house.

35 Thus shall ye say every one to his neighbour, and every one to his brother, What hath the Lord answered? and, What hath the Lord spoken?

36 And the burden of the Lord shall ye mention no more: for every man’s word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the Lord of hosts our God.

37 Thus shalt thou say to the prophet, What hath the Lord answered thee? and, What hath the Lord spoken?

38 But since ye say, The burden of the Lord; therefore thus saith the Lord; Because ye say this word, The burden of the Lord, and I have sent unto you, saying, Ye shall not say, The burden of the Lord;

39 Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence:

40 And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten. (That doesn't sound very safe. Where's my safe place?)

[JLHPROF]

Helaman 13:26 Behold ye are worse than they; for as the Lord liveth, if a prophet come among you and declareth unto you the word of the Lord, which testifieth of your sins and iniquities, ye are angry with him, and cast him out and seek all manner of ways to destroy him; yea, you will say that he is a false prophet, and that he is a sinner, and of the devil, because he testifieth that your deeds are evil.

Matt 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

I'm so glad we have "true" prophets to guide us along

The irony of this sarcastic statement from someone quoting the Nemenhah books as scripture is huge.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Helaman 13:26 Behold ye are worse than they; for as the Lord liveth, if a prophet come among you and declareth unto you the word of the Lord, which testifieth of your sins and iniquities, ye are angry with him, and cast him out and seek all manner of ways to destroy him; yea, you will say that he is a false prophet, and that he is a sinner, and of the devil, because he testifieth that your deeds are evil.

Matt 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

I'm so glad we have "true" prophets to guide us along

The irony of this sarcastic statement from someone quoting the Nemenhah books as scripture is huge.

Do you find any error in the OP?

Do you believe the LDS church leadership can never lead you astray? Do you put your complete trust in these 15 men? If you don’t, then you are an apostate.

[JLHPROF]

Helaman 13:26 Behold ye are worse than they; for as the Lord liveth, if a prophet come among you and declareth unto you the word of the Lord, which testifieth of your sins and iniquities, ye are angry with him, and cast him out and seek all manner of ways to destroy him; yea, you will say that he is a false prophet, and that he is a sinner, and of the devil, because he testifieth that your deeds are evil.

Matt 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

I'm so glad we have "true" prophets to guide us along

The irony of this sarcastic statement from someone quoting the Nemenhah books as scripture is huge.

Do you find any error in the OP?

Just its provenance.