Are Adam and Eve really that hated by some Christians?

[Reluctant Watchman]

I recently had a bit of a spat with a Christian woman on social media. She asked about which “plain and precious” truths were included in the BoM, but not the Bible. I cited a handful of doctrines, but the one that blew up was the idea that Adam and Eve partook of the fruit in their innocence so that mankind would enter mortality. Here are the verses I quoted from 2 Nephi 2:

19 And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth.
20 And they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth.
21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.
22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.
24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.
25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

Now this is where she flipped out. She believes that they sinned against God and this is the reason that we are all now born into a fallen world because of them and that we no longer live in the Garden of Eden, in a realm of glory. BUT, she went on to say that it was because of Adam and Eve’s poor decision that Christ was made to suffer. Adam and Eve were the reason for the Atonement, but it could have been prevented had they not been such bad people.

I was honestly dumbfounded. I asked repeatedly why there was a tree of knowledge of good and evil, but received no response. She then started calling me a snake and twisting a few concepts about why Satan was in the garden and how we shouldn’t listen to him (duh!)… weird stuff.

Anyway, I was just curious, how consistent is this belief held among Christian sects today that Adam and Eve were really bad people?

[Juliet]

Well, I kind of agree with her, minus the hatred. I think it's like having a divine DNA blueprint and then getting enticed into eating something that has the crispr editing gene in it. We have to learn how to create consciousness more powerful than the serpent seed. Jesus showed us that we can do it through following His instructions which, when we can not hear them directly, we still have the Holy Spirit to guide us. We have to chose love over hate. Even for the wrongs of Adam and Eve, and everyone that came after them. Isn't that why we do temple work?

[Reluctant Watchman]

Well, I kind of agree with her, minus the hatred. I think it's like having a divine DNA blueprint and then getting enticed into eating something that has the crispr editing gene in it. We have to learn how to create consciousness more powerful than the serpent seed. Jesus showed us that we can do it through following His instructions which, when we can not hear them directly, we still have the Holy Spirit to guide us. We have to chose love over hate. Even for the wrongs of Adam and Eve, and everyone that came after them. Isn't that why we do temple work?

So you disagree with 2 Nephi 2? Could we have entered mortality without them transgressing the law and partaking of the fruit.

[TheDuke]

do not the Catholics believe such? Their doctrine that little children will go to hell if not baptized, as I understand is based on Adam's sin?

[Reluctant Watchman]

do not the Catholics believe such? Their doctrine that little children will go to hell if not baptized, as I understand is based on Adam's sin?

Correct, children are born into Adam’s original transgression and must be cleansed. Hence Joseph’s clarification in AoF #2: We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

[Juliet]

Well, I kind of agree with her, minus the hatred. I think it's like having a divine DNA blueprint and then getting enticed into eating something that has the crispr editing gene in it. We have to learn how to create consciousness more powerful than the serpent seed. Jesus showed us that we can do it through following His instructions which, when we can not hear them directly, we still have the Holy Spirit to guide us. We have to chose love over hate. Even for the wrongs of Adam and Eve, and everyone that came after them. Isn't that why we do temple work?

So you disagree with 2 Nephi 2? Could we have entered mortality without them transgressing the law and partaking of the fruit.

Yes, I do. And the reason why I do, is because it's too easy use that ideology to justify satanic behavior. When I get my one on one with God, I will definitely ask him to explain it. But until then, ideology that says you have to partake of anything other that that which is good in order to progress... I have a problem with that. That's like a parent saying I want my child to be abused because it makes them stronger.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Well, I kind of agree with her, minus the hatred. I think it's like having a divine DNA blueprint and then getting enticed into eating something that has the crispr editing gene in it. We have to learn how to create consciousness more powerful than the serpent seed. Jesus showed us that we can do it through following His instructions which, when we can not hear them directly, we still have the Holy Spirit to guide us. We have to chose love over hate. Even for the wrongs of Adam and Eve, and everyone that came after them. Isn't that why we do temple work?

So you disagree with 2 Nephi 2? Could we have entered mortality without them transgressing the law and partaking of the fruit.

Yes, I do. And the reason why I do, is because it's too easy use that ideology to justify satanic behavior. When I get my one on one with God, I will definitely ask him to explain it. But until then, ideology that says you have to partake of anything other that that which is good in order to progress... I have a problem with that. That's like a parent saying I want my child to be abused because it makes them stronger.

Is there a difference between sin and transgression? I believe there is a very wide spectrum. We also have to consider that the whole garden experience is somewhat allegorical. By partaking of the fruit, they gained a gold-like attribute, that of knowing good from evil.

[Juliet]

Well, I kind of agree with her, minus the hatred. I think it's like having a divine DNA blueprint and then getting enticed into eating something that has the crispr editing gene in it. We have to learn how to create consciousness more powerful than the serpent seed. Jesus showed us that we can do it through following His instructions which, when we can not hear them directly, we still have the Holy Spirit to guide us. We have to chose love over hate. Even for the wrongs of Adam and Eve, and everyone that came after them. Isn't that why we do temple work?

So you disagree with 2 Nephi 2? Could we have entered mortality without them transgressing the law and partaking of the fruit.

Yes, I do. And the reason why I do, is because it's too easy use that ideology to justify satanic behavior. When I get my one on one with God, I will definitely ask him to explain it. But until then, ideology that says you have to partake of anything other that that which is good in order to progress... I have a problem with that. That's like a parent saying I want my child to be abused because it makes them stronger.

Is there a difference between sin and transgression? I believe there is a very wide spectrum. We also have to consider that the whole garden experience is somewhat allegorical. By partaking of the fruit, they gained a gold-like attribute, that of knowing good from evil.

Well, the idea with transgression, is Jesus felt it was worthy of atoning for... I don't think He would have died for people he felt were purposely trying to oppose God's will...but for those who were innocently deceived. Anything that causes death is a sin... but a sin committed without an evil intention, perhaps is a transgression.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Anything that causes death is a sin... but a sin committed without an evil intention, perhaps is a transgression.

I think that is quite a profound statement.

[Bronco73idi]

Another sour grape

Adam had to sin/transgress against God.

People desire perfection, so they come to the conclusion like this woman has. That is a sin in itself.

Elohim wanted Adam to sin so he can grow and know between good and evil, thus he can choose good.

Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man;

Adam = a man

[Juliet]

Another sour grape

Adam had to sin/transgress against God.

People desire perfection, so they come to the conclusion like this woman has. That is a sin in itself.

Elohim wanted Adam to sin so he can grow and know between good and evil, thus he can choose good.

Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man;

Adam = a man

Elohim wanted Adam to know between good and evil, which allowed the choice to sin. He did not have to give in to temptation. The temptation itself is enough to teach one to resist sin.

The sour grape is the fear God's love is limited by our's and other's mistakes, mistakes so awful they cause death! God's love is more powerful than the worst torture one could ever endure. The fear that it is not, the fear that the sin of a father could permanently curse the child, that is the sour grape. Even if a father sins, the child can still choose to walk in what is right, like Jesus did.

[Juliet]

Another sour grape

Adam had to sin/transgress against God.

People desire perfection, so they come to the conclusion like this woman has. That is a sin in itself.

Elohim wanted Adam to sin so he can grow and know between good and evil, thus he can choose good.

Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man;

Adam = a man

Adam being the beast... Wow, like when the flesh becomes subject to AI.

[blitzinstripes]

Another sour grape

Adam had to sin/transgress against God.

People desire perfection, so they come to the conclusion like this woman has. That is a sin in itself.

Elohim wanted Adam to sin so he can grow and know between good and evil, thus he can choose good.

Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man;

Adam = a man

According to the teachings of JS, this is an eternal pattern. This is how the Father became the Father. Temporal world's must be created spirit children must be given agency and a mortal probation. We cannot grow and develop without the experiences of learning and growing through trial and error. That could only happen in a fallen sphere, and the only way back (and forward) was through a redemptive sacrifice. The Father and Son knew Adam and Eve would partake just as every first man and woman did since the dawn of eternity. It had to happen. Living in a state of innocence within the garden and the presence of God would never allow for the kind of growth that is needed for eternal progression. If we were able to progress without the fall, none of us would be here.

[jreuben]

It's such a terrible tragedy that they have besmirched Father Adam's role as our Father and God. The clear teachings of brother Joseph and, more especially, the scriptures and ancient prophets, patriarchs and religions all have clear and present indications that Adam and the patriarchal order of Heaven are critical to our existence, power and organization. The church's attack on the "Adam-God Doctrine" is a travesty and tremendous evil since it is both true AND the foundation of our religion.

The ongoing attack upon Father Adam and Mother Eve are enormously evil and some of the near fights I've had with other "Christians" before about Mother Eve has made my blood boil.

[Reluctant Watchman]

It's such a terrible tragedy that they have besmirched Father Adam's role as our Father and God. The clear teachings of brother Joseph and, more especially, the scriptures and ancient prophets, patriarchs and religions all have clear and present indications that Adam and the patriarchal order of Heaven are critical to our existence, power and organization. The church's attack on the "Adam-God Doctrine" is a travesty and tremendous evil since it is both true AND the foundation of our religion.

The ongoing attack upon Father Adam and Mother Eve are enormously evil and some of the near fights I've had with other "Christians" before about Mother Eve has made my blood boil.

I can’t get behind the Adam-God theory. There’s sufficient doctrinal precedent to counter any suspicion. However we want to interpret early church history, it doesn’t jive w/ the scriptures. But even beyond that, the HG pushes me away from that teaching. But hey, if you want to go down that road, I hope you enjoy the ride.

[stormcloak]

I can’t get behind the Adam-God theory. There’s sufficient doctrinal precedent to counter any suspicion. However we want to interpret early church history, it doesn’t jive w/ the scriptures. But even beyond that, the HG pushes me away from that teaching. But hey, if you want to go down that road, I hope you enjoy the ride.

I've posted a lot of quotes on previous threads which show extremely strong doctrinal support both from Joseph Smith and the scriptures which supports the doctrine. Unlike you, the Holy Ghost pushes me towards that teaching ever so strongly. I can appreciate my Savior and His Father so much more strongly equipped with this understanding, far better than I ever could without it.

I'm so glad I'm no longer brainwashed under the yoke of the apostate modern brethren that have condemned and obfuscated this teaching beyond the reach of those who are too afraid to dig for the truth themselves. God alone is responsible for teaching me a fuller understanding of that doctrine.

[Serragon]

I recently had a bit of a spat with a Christian woman on social media. She asked about which “plain and precious” truths were included in the BoM, but not the Bible. I cited a handful of doctrines, but the one that blew up was the idea that Adam and Eve partook of the fruit in their innocence so that mankind would enter mortality. Here are the verses I quoted from 2 Nephi 2:

19 And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth.
20 And they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth.
21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.
22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.
24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.
25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

Now this is where she flipped out. She believes that they sinned against God and this is the reason that we are all now born into a fallen world because of them and that we no longer live in the Garden of Eden, in a realm of glory. BUT, she went on to say that it was because of Adam and Eve’s poor decision that Christ was made to suffer. Adam and Eve were the reason for the Atonement, but it could have been prevented had they not been such bad people.

I was honestly dumbfounded. I asked repeatedly why there was a tree of knowledge of good and evil, but received no response. She then started calling me a snake and twisting a few concepts about why Satan was in the garden and how we shouldn’t listen to him (duh!)… weird stuff.

Anyway, I was just curious, how consistent is this belief held among Christian sects today that Adam and Eve were really bad people?

The scripture you quote refers to Adam and what would have happened if he had not also taken the fruit after Eve took it.

I agree with her for the most part. It is rather ludicrous to me to believe that God's plan required disobedience and that it would have been frustrated by obedience. I have no doubt that if they had not followed Satan, God would have prepared them to take the fruit willingly and with eyes wide open when they were ready.

From your friend's perspective, Mormon teaching's on this topic are very anti-christian. We revere Eve's sinful act while at the same time deny God's power. To me, this is one teaching that can't really be reconciled with the creation scriptures and God's character.

[stormcloak]

A relevant, beautiful quote regarding the title of this thread from The Women of Mormondom by Edward W. Tullidge (this particular passage was likely authored by Eliza R. Snow):

Motherhood the same from the beginning even to the end! The love of motherhood passing all understanding! Thus read our Mormon sisters [regarding] the fall of their Mother.

And the serpent tempted the woman with the forbidden fruit.

Did woman hesitate a moment then? Did motherhood refuse the cup for her own sake, or did she, with infinite love, take it and drink for her children's sake? The Mother had plunged down, from the pinnacle of her celestial throne, to earth, to taste of death that her children might have everlasting life.

What! Should Eve ask Adam to partake of the elements of death first, in such a sacrament! T'would have outraged motherhood!

Eve partook of that supper of the Lord's death first. She ate of that body and drank of that blood.

Be it to Adam's eternal credit that he stood by and let our Mother—our ever blessed Mother Eve—partake of the sacrifice before himself. Adam followed the Mother's example, for he was great and grand—a Father worthy indeed of a world. He was wise, too; for the blood of life is the stream of mortality.

What a psalm of everlasting praise to woman, that Eve fell first!

A Goddess came down from her mansions of glory to bring the spirits of her children down after her, in their myriads of branches and their hundreds of generations!

She was again a mortal Mother now. The first person in the trinity of Mothers.

The Mormon sisterhood take up their themes of religion with their Mother Eve, and consent with her, at the very threshold of the temple, to bear the cross. Eve is ever with her daughters in the temple of the Lord their God.

The Mormon daughters of Eve have also in this eleventh hour come down to earth, like her, to magnify the divine office of motherhood. She came down from her resurrected, they from their spirit estate. Here, with her, in the divine providence of maternity, they begin to ascend the ladder to heaven, and to their exaltation in the courts of their Father and Mother God.

Who shall number the blasphemies of the sectarian churches against our first grand parents? [D. & C. 112:24-26] Ten thousand priests of the serpent have thundered anathemas upon the head of "accursed Adam." Appalling, often times, their pious rage. And Eve—the holiest, grandest of Mothers—has been made a very by-word to offset the frailties of the most wicked and abandoned.

Very different is Mormon theology! The Mormons exalt the grand parents of our race. Not even is the name of Christ more sacred to them than the names of Adam and Eve. It was to them the poetess and high priestess addressed her hymn of invocation; and Brigham's proclamation that Adam is our Father and God is like a hallelujah chorus to their everlasting names. The very earth shall yet take it up; all the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve shall yet shout it for joy, to the ends of the earth, in every tongue!

Eve stands, then, first—the God-Mother in the maternal trinity of this earth. Soon we shall meet Sarah, the Mother of the covenant, and in her daughters comprehend something of patriarchal marriage—"Mormon polygamy." But leave we awhile these themes of woman, and return to the personal thread of the sisters' lives.

(The Women of Mormondom, by Edward W. Tullidge [edited by Eliza R. Snow], pp. 198-200)

[Reluctant Watchman]

I can’t get behind the Adam-God theory. There’s sufficient doctrinal precedent to counter any suspicion. However we want to interpret early church history, it doesn’t jive w/ the scriptures. But even beyond that, the HG pushes me away from that teaching. But hey, if you want to go down that road, I hope you enjoy the ride.

I've posted a lot of quotes on previous threads which show extremely strong doctrinal support both from Joseph Smith and the scriptures which supports the doctrine. Unlike you, the Holy Ghost pushes me towards that teaching ever so strongly. I can appreciate my Savior and His Father so much more strongly equipped with this understanding, far better than I ever could without it.

I'm so glad I'm no longer brainwashed under the yoke of the apostate modern brethren that have condemned and obfuscated this teaching beyond the reach of those who are too afraid to dig for the truth themselves. God alone is responsible for teaching me a fuller understanding of that doctrine.

Yes, I of anyone here on the forum, has been “brainwashed under the yoke of the apostate modern brethren.” I am also afraid of my own shadow, so that does explain a lot.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I recently had a bit of a spat with a Christian woman on social media. She asked about which “plain and precious” truths were included in the BoM, but not the Bible. I cited a handful of doctrines, but the one that blew up was the idea that Adam and Eve partook of the fruit in their innocence so that mankind would enter mortality. Here are the verses I quoted from 2 Nephi 2:

19 And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth.
20 And they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth.
21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.
22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.
24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.
25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

Now this is where she flipped out. She believes that they sinned against God and this is the reason that we are all now born into a fallen world because of them and that we no longer live in the Garden of Eden, in a realm of glory. BUT, she went on to say that it was because of Adam and Eve’s poor decision that Christ was made to suffer. Adam and Eve were the reason for the Atonement, but it could have been prevented had they not been such bad people.

I was honestly dumbfounded. I asked repeatedly why there was a tree of knowledge of good and evil, but received no response. She then started calling me a snake and twisting a few concepts about why Satan was in the garden and how we shouldn’t listen to him (duh!)… weird stuff.

Anyway, I was just curious, how consistent is this belief held among Christian sects today that Adam and Eve were really bad people?

The scripture you quote refers to Adam and what would have happened if he had not also taken the fruit after Eve took it.

I agree with her for the most part. It is rather ludicrous to me to believe that God's plan required disobedience and that it would have been frustrated by obedience. I have no doubt that if they had not followed Satan, God would have prepared them to take the fruit willingly and with eyes wide open when they were ready.

From your friend's perspective, Mormon teaching's on this topic are very anti-christian. We revere Eve's sinful act while at the same time deny God's power. To me, this is one teaching that can't really be reconciled with the creation scriptures and God's character.

I don’t know… 2 Nephi 2 is pretty straight forward. Plain and precious if you ask me.

[stormcloak]

Yes, I of anyone here on the forum, has been “brainwashed under the yoke of the apostate modern brethren.” I am also afraid of my own shadow, so that does explain a lot.

I think that your aversion to the doctrine probably (if only indirectly) came from the cultural backlash against the Adam-God doctrine which virtually all of us inherited from even our youngest classes. There has been a push to stifle and quash any support of this doctrine since the early 20th-century and it has permeated into many curriculums that even children learn from. Unless you're much older than I think you are, you've likely been affected by this agenda as well, whether you realize it or not.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Yes, I of anyone here on the forum, has been “brainwashed under the yoke of the apostate modern brethren.” I am also afraid of my own shadow, so that does explain a lot.

I think that your aversion to the doctrine probably (if only indirectly) came from the cultural backlash against the Adam-God doctrine which virtually all of us inherited from even our youngest classes. There has been a push to stifle and quash any support of this doctrine since the early 20th-century and it has permeated into many curriculums that even children learn from. Unless you're much older than I think you are, you've likely been affected by this agenda as well, whether you realize it or not.

No, pretty much due to a direct contradiction of the scriptures and God speaking to my heart. I didn’t even know this was a thing until I dug into Brigham’s failed doctrines.

[stormcloak]

No, pretty much due to a direct contradiction of the scriptures and God speaking to my heart. I didn’t even know this was a thing until I dug into Brigham’s failed doctrines.

Exactly. That is what the brethren have been teaching for almost a century now. They've repeatedly claimed that the Adam-God doctrine is incompatible with our scriptures and thus you're actually precisely on their side of the fence in this argument. Go and read some of Bruce R. McConkie's, Mark E. Petersen's, Spencer W. Kimball's, or numerous other brethren's arguments against the doctrine. They claim that exact same line of argumentation, and they essentially stipulate that Brigham Young was not a prophet (in their eyes, his only real mission was to lead the pioneers out west so that they could establish their Rocky Mountain Empire).

The fact is, the doctrine did not originate with Brigham Young. It originated with Joseph Smith, and even beyond that, much support is found for it throughout the Bible. I won't rehash the arguments here which I've voluminously documented elsewhere on the forum, but these are the facts of the case. Your bias is coming from preconceived interpretations of the scriptures which you aren't realizing have been embedded into your psyche for a very long time. This was my experience as well, even back when I had consternations over whether the doctrine was true because of the apparent scriptural conundrums. Fortunately, these conundrums are only apparent and not real.

[Reluctant Watchman]

No, pretty much due to a direct contradiction of the scriptures and God speaking to my heart. I didn’t even know this was a thing until I dug into Brigham’s failed doctrines.

Exactly. That is what the brethren have been teaching for almost a century now. They've repeatedly claimed that the Adam-God doctrine is incompatible with our scriptures and thus you're actually precisely on their side of the fence in this argument. Go and read some of Bruce R. McConkie's, Mark E. Petersen's, Spencer W. Kimball's, or numerous other brethren's arguments against the doctrine. They claim that exact same line of argumentation, and they essentially stipulate that Brigham Young was not a prophet (in their eyes, his only real mission was to lead the pioneers out west so that they could establish their Rocky Mountain Empire).

The fact is, the doctrine did not originate with Brigham Young. It originated with Joseph Smith, and even beyond that, much support is found for it throughout the Bible. I won't rehash the arguments here which I've voluminously documented elsewhere on the forum, but these are the facts of the case. Your bias is coming from preconceived interpretations of the scriptures which you aren't realizing have been embedded into your psyche for a very long time. This was my experience as well, even back when I had consternations over whether the doctrine was true because of the apparent scriptural conundrums. Fortunately, these conundrums are only apparent and not real.

I said that my reason was due to the scriptures, not Brigham. Although Brigham did some horrific things.

[stormcloak]

I said that my reason was due to the scriptures, not Brigham.

And that's my point. The interpretation of scripture which tends towards an anti-Adam-God mindset is actually not natural, but has been subtly implanted into members' minds for generations, without their realizing it. The curricula / correlation-department writers have been extremely crafty and careful to embed these ideas into children's minds from a very young age, so that they see scriptural problems with such doctrines, where in reality there are none. Christianity at large has also been affected by this same type of agenda, but Mormons actually more so. It's mainly because certain brethren disbelieved the doctrine in the early 20th-century and wanted to make sure it no longer became influential in members' thinking any more.

Although Brigham did some horrific things.

So say many people about Joseph Smith, or even the Savior. You're free to have whatever opinions you want to about the man—I'm talking about doctrine.