“At that time I knew it was the real thing. Oh, boy, did I!” Hugh Nibley, the Endowment

[kirtland r.m.]

What Similarities Are There Between Egyptian and Israelite Temples?
By Jeffrey M. Bradshaw · April 6, 2022

Here is a sample as some of the Egyptian "endowment" and other Temple information are explained.

A notable student ancient and modern temple ordinances in our day was Hugh W. Nibley, a Brigham Young University professor and internationally respected scholar of ancient cultures. Speaking of his own endowment in 1927, he remembered: “I was very serious about it … And the words of the initiatory [part of the endowment] — I thought those were the most magnificent words I have ever heard spoken.”[xxxiii] Admitting that his first visit to the temple had left him “in something of a daze,” his return to the temple after his mission was an overwhelming experience: “At that time I knew it was the real thing. Oh, boy, did I!”[xxxiv]

Nibley’s delight in knowing that the ordinances he received were the “real thing” was not only because he felt and understood the power of the temple personally but also because he recognized that many of the teachings and forms used in modern ordinances resonated with what he already knew about ancient temple worship. Nibley remained a devoted participant and student of the temple throughout his life. His writings drew on his extensive knowledge of the ancient world and illuminated many aspects of restored temple ordinances. He was particularly enthralled with tracing Egyptian rites backward to their earliest surviving traces:[xxxv]

Latter-day Saints believe that their temple ordinances are as old as the human race and represent a primordial revealed religion that has passed through alternate phases of apostasy and restoration which have left the world littered with the scattered fragments of the original structure, some more and some less recognizable, but all badly damaged and out of proper context . . . it is perfectly clear by now that the same sort of thing has been going on for a very long time and in virtually all parts of the world. ((Nibley, The Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri: An Egyptian Endowment, xxvii))

“I can only attribute to his genius or daemons his uncanny recovery of elements in ancient Jewish theurgy that had ceased to be available either to Judaism or to Christianity, and that had survived only in esoteric traditions unlikely to have touched(Joseph) Smith directly” (Harold Bloom, The American Religion, 101).


The following is from Early Christian and Jewish Rituals Related to Temple Practices
by John A. Tvedtnes

In early Christianity, following the apostasy, temple initiation eventually merged with the baptismal initiation, which included both washing and anointing with oil, along with donning of white clothing and sometimes the reception of a new name.8 Thus, in Acts of Thomas 157, we read that the apostle instructed one Mygdonia to unclothe her sisters and put “girdles” on them, after which he blessed the oil and anointed one of the sisters, then had Mygdonia anoint the others. He then led them into the water and baptized them.9 In another passage (Acts of Thomas 5), the apostle anoints the top of his head, his nostrils, his ears, his teeth, and the area around his heart.10

Especially significant in this respect are the five catechetical lectures delivered by the fourth-century bishop St. Cyril to newly-baptized Christians, comprising lectures 19-23 in the collection. In the first lecture (19:10-11), he speaks of the converts being “clothed in the garment of salvation, even Jesus Christ.” And reminds them that “these things were done in the outer chamber. But if God will, when in the succeeding lectures on the Mysteries we have entered into the Holy of Holies, we shall there know the symbolical meaning of the things which are there performed.”11 In the second lecture (20:2-4), he reminds his listeners that “those things, which were done by you in the inner chamber, were symbolical. As soon, then, as ye entered, ye put off your tunic; and this was an image of putting off the old man with his deeds. Having stripped yourselves, ye were naked . . . Then, when ye were stripped, ye were anointed with exorcised oil, from the very hairs of your head to your feet, and were made partakers of the good olive-tree, Jesus Christ . . . After these things, ye were led to the holy pool of Divine Baptism.”12 In the third lecture (21:3-4, 6), he explains that the ointment is symbolically applied to the forehead and “thy other senses; and while the body is anointed with the visible ointment, the soul is sanctified by Holy and life-giving Spirit. And ye were first anointed on the forehead . . . Then on your ears; that ye might receive the ears which are quick to hear the Divine Mysteries . . . Then on the nostrils . . . Afterwards on your breast,” then he notes that the anointing is for the high priest and king, suggesting that the initiate becomes a priest and king.13 In the fourth lecture (22:8), Cyril cites Ecclesiastes 9:8 (“Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment”) and adds, “But now, having put off thy old garments, and put on those which are spiritually white, thou must be continually robed in white: of course we mean not this, that thou art always to wear white raiment; but thou must be clad in the garments that are truly white and shining and spiritual.”14https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/con ... -practices



The exercise can be carried back to the Pyramid Texts, the oldest large body of religious writings to survive. This large and disorganized collection does not allow for a neat overall comparison, but all the main themes are there — and no others — indicating that the story begins as it ends, with the same plot and characters.https://latterdaysaintmag.com/what-simi ... e-temples/

There is so much lying and dishonesty, and misinformation out there from anti church sources about the Book of Abraham. This is a bit long, but packed with interesting info.. An Egyptian Endowment a summery of Hugh Nibley"s The message of the Joseph Smith Papyri: An Egyptian Endowment by Dr. Kelly Ogden professor of the Jerusalem Center, Israelhttps://www.scribd.com/document/4721078 ... ith-Papyri


I have posted much more on this on this forum, for starters, search for Egyptian Endowment. Also this threadviewtopic.php?p=1212689#p1212689

Also this.viewtopic.php?p=1208422#p1208422

Temple Rituals Pre-Date Joseph Smith’s 1842 Involvement With Masons.viewtopic.php?p=926198&hilit=egyptian+endowment#p926198

[kirtland r.m.]

I noticed a protest sign outside Temple Square one conference, it said that the Lord no longer appears in temples(after Biblical times). We know better. It is also a widely held Christian belief that after the Temple Veil was torn, at the time of our Savior's resurrection, from this time forward there would be no need for any temples.
However, here is some history. ...In all of this it can be seen that the first-century disciples of Jesus Christ attended the temple often, experienced purification rites there, prayed there, taught there, and received revelation from the resurrected Lord there. Notice that all of these things happened AFTER the tearing of the temple veil, which occurred during the crucifixion. It is obvious that the destruction of that particular curtain did not signal to the first-century Christians that the temple had become obsolete and should therefore be abandoned. Matthew B. Brown
When Dr. Einar C. Erickson's son was going through the Temple for his own endowment, he told his father that he had already known almost all of the information he was given there by studying the ancient documents his father had been sharing with him.

[gruden2.0]

And yet, the Mormon leadership keeps changing and tweaking the temple ceremony every so often. If you compare what is done now vs. 100 years ago when Nibley partook, there's a very wide divergence. Why do you suppose there's any reason to change an ancient ceremony? Can we say we have an ancient ceremony at all with so many changes having been made?

I would think if you believe in the efficacy of the temple ritual and they are of ancient date, that you would be very upset that they keep getting changed. Didn't the Lord warn against adding or subtracting from His Word? I find it ironic that Adam (accidentally) did this very thing himself and that's how the serpent was able to get leverage over Eve, which is (still?) depicted in the ceremony. It's right in front of us yet we refuse to see.

[DaysOfNoah]

And yet, the Mormon leadership keeps changing and tweaking the temple ceremony every so often. If you compare what is done now vs. 100 years ago when Nibley partook, there's a very wide divergence. Why do you suppose there's any reason to change an ancient ceremony? Can we say we have an ancient ceremony at all with so many changes having been made?

I would think if you believe in the efficacy of the temple ritual and they are of ancient date, that you would be very upset that they keep getting changed. Didn't the Lord warn against adding or subtracting from His Word? I find it ironic that Adam (accidentally) did this very thing himself and that's how the serpent was able to get leverage over Eve, which is (still?) depicted in the ceremony. It's right in front of us yet we refuse to see.

How did Adam do this accidentally? Not sure what you're referencing.

[kirtland r.m.]

What Similarities Are There Between Egyptian and Israelite Temples?

Some nice tidbits from this article.

Hugh Nibley taught that the Egyptian rites “are a parody, an imitation, but, as such, not to be despised”[xii] because they were “good imitations” and undertaken in some cases with a degree of righteous intent. For example, we read in Abraham 1:26-27 that “Pharaoh, being a righteous man,” sought “earnestly to imitate that order established by the fathers in the first generations, in the days of the first patriarchal reign,” for he “would fain claim” the priesthood.

Similar comparisons, of course, could be made with permanent Egyptian and Israelite temple structures. For example, John Gee has written a study comparing the Tabernacle of Exodus with the Egyptian temple of Edfu. He concluded that there must be “some connection between an early form of the [Egyptian] Book of the Temple and the book of Exodus.”[xvii]

The similarities reach beyond the ground plan: At Abu Simbel Ramesses II’s cartouche, in the inner tent, is flanked on either side by a representation of the winged falcon god Horus; the birds’ wings cover the pharaoh’s golden throne. In the innermost room of the Tabernacle, the wings of two cherubim cover Yahweh’s golden throne.

Nibley’s delight in knowing that the ordinances he received were the “real thing” was not only because he felt and understood the power of the temple personally but also because he recognized that many of the teachings and forms used in modern ordinances resonated with what he already knew about ancient temple worship. Nibley remained a devoted participant and student of the temple throughout his life. His writings drew on his extensive knowledge of the ancient world and illuminated many aspects of restored temple ordinances. He was particularly enthralled with tracing Egyptian rites backward to their earliest surviving traces:[xxxv]

The exercise can be carried back to the Pyramid Texts, the oldest large body of religious writings to survive. This large and disorganized collection does not allow for a neat overall comparison, but all the main themes are there — and no others — indicating that the story begins as it ends, with the same plot and characters. If we take all the topic headings assigned to the various Pyramid Texts by Raymond Faulkner in 1969, we find that they fall readily and completely into six main categories: namely, (1) the importance of a primordial written document on which the rites are based; (2) purification (including anointing, lustration, and clothing texts); (3) creation (the common resurrection and awakening texts); (4) garden (including tree and ritual-meal motifs); (5) travel (protection, “ferryman,” combat, and Osirian texts); and (6) what Faulkner calls “ascension” texts (including victory, coronation, admission to the heavenly company, and Horus texts). These six themes are basic to the mysteries everywhere.

Figures 9a, b. “First comes the washing or baptism, then (in another room) the bestowal of crown and throne.” [xxxvi]

Question: Hugh W. Nibley and other LDS scholars have written at length about Egyptian temple rites. What similarities are there between Egyptian and Israelite temples?

Summary: Temple rituals in the ancient Near East may seem in some respects far removed from current LDS teachings and ritual practices. However, what resemblances exist may be of significance to a people who claim that divine revelation about the ordinances go back to the beginning of mankind. Predating, as they do, the Israelite Tabernacle by more than a millennium, such resemblances may be “an embarrassment to exclusivistic readings of religion.”[iii] However, to Mormons they represent “a kind of confirmation and vindication.”[iv] Thus, Egyptian and other ancient temples should be better understood by Latter-day Saints. For although, as Hugh Nibley observed, “the Egyptian endowment was but an imitation, it was still a good one, and we may be able to learn much from it.”[v]

The Know

Among other works of scripture, the book of Exodus is exceptionally rich — so rich that it can be studied profitably from several different perspectives. For instance, in a previous article in this series, I explored some of the issues and findings relating to the historical setting of Exodus. Additional scholars have focused attention on different issues such as typology — how authors and editors elsewhere in the Bible and the Book of Mormon later “liken[ed]”[vi] their own situations to the story of captivity and deliverance in the book of Exodus.[vii] Yet others have explored implications of the magnificent literary unity of Exodus (in its current form) from diverse angles.[viii]

However, it would be nothing short of irresponsible to discuss the book of Exodus without commenting on its many temple themes. Several chapters of Exodus are taken up in describing the architecture and furnishings of the Tabernacle. In addition, there is a lengthy account of Israel at the foot of Mount Sinai, a “temple” of God’s own making.[ix]

The Antiquity of Temple Ordinances

Joseph Smith taught that the origins of modern temple ordinances go back beyond the foundation of the world. For example in 1835, as the Saints prepared to receive the ordinances that would be available to them in the Kirtland Temple, the Prophet stated:[x]

The order of the house of God has been, and ever will be, the same, even after Christ comes; and after the termination of the thousand years it will be the same; and we shall finally enter into the celestial kingdom of God, and enjoy it forever.

While, as Joseph Smith taught, the “order of the house of God”[xi] must remain unchanged, the Lord has permitted authorized Church leaders to make adaptations of the ordinances to meet the needs of different times, cultures, and practical circumstances. Latter-day Saints understand that the primary intent of temple ordinances is to teach and bless the participants, not to provide precise matches to texts, symbols, and modes of presentation from other times. Because this is so, we would expect to find Joseph Smith’s restored ritual deviating at times from the wording and symbolism of ancient ordinances in the interest of clarity and relevance to modern disciples. Similarly, we would expect various adaptations in the presentation of the ordinances to mirror changes in culture and practical circumstances.

Other innovations and adaptations of temple ceremonies have been made under conditions of lesser inspiration. For example, Hugh Nibley taught that the Egyptian rites “are a parody, an imitation, but, as such, not to be despised”[xii] because they were “good imitations” and undertaken in some cases with a degree of righteous intent. For example, we read in Abraham 1:26-27 that “Pharaoh, being a righteous man,” sought “earnestly to imitate that order established by the fathers in the first generations, in the days of the first patriarchal reign,” for he “would fain claim” the priesthood.

Of course, we cannot hope to do justice to the topic in the few pages of this article. The hope is to introduce a small sampling of general affinities between Egyptian and Israelite temple architecture and ritual — realizing of course that significant details varied over the centuries.

Figure 2. Ramesses II’s war camp at the Battle of Kadesh as reconstructed from a relief on the north wall of the Great Hall at the Abu Simbel Temple. The camp is surrounted by leather shields and is oriented eastward. Note the throne Tent of Ramesses II at right. In the sanctuary, winged Horus falcons flank the cartouche containing the pharaoh’s name, recalling the cherubim atop the Ark of the Covenant.[xiii]

Figure 3. Ramesses II’s war camp as depicted on a pylon at the Luxor Temple[xiv]

Egyptian Parallels to Tabernacle Layout, Architecture and Functions

Ramesses II’s war camp at the Battle of Kadesh. We begin with a close look at the Egyptian war camp scenes at the Battle of Kadesh. Michael M. Homan describes the scenes shown above as follows:

All four reliefs depict Ramesses’ camp as rectangular, its perimeter lined with large leather shields standing side by side. At the center of the camp is a rectangular tent. In the courtyard horses are being harnessed to chariots, soldiers are being fed, and the wounded are being treated. In the lower-right-hand corner of the camp as it is depicted in the Abu Simbel relief, a captive who falsified reports concerning the position of the Hittite forces is being beaten; the Hittite chariotry is shown breaking into the camp immediately above.

An unprecedented effort at realism characterizes these pictorial records—perhaps owing to the indelible impression left by such a narrowly averted military and political disaster. For example, each relief depicts Ramesses’ pet lion relaxing outside the tent in the center of camp. Even more striking, the images of the soldiers in the pharaoh’s army, in contrast to typical Egyptian battle scenes, are no larger than the images of their enemies. Similarly, while the pharaoh himself is not depicted, the pharaoh’s cartouche, displayed in the pharaoh’s tent in the Abu Simbel relief, is no larger than the warriors. As the distinguished Egyptologist Gaballa Ali Gaballa wrote, “The scenes of the battle of Qadesh constitute, undoubtedly, the zenith of all … attempts and ventures of the Egyptian artist [up to that time] to give a specific rendition of a specific event.”

Figure 4. Interior Courtyard of the Temple of Horus at Edfu.

Photograph by Stephen T. Whitlock.

Resemblances to the camp and Tabernacle. Of significance for the topic of the present article are the findings of scholars such as Homan[xv] and Myung Soo Suh,[xvi] that the layout of the camp and war tent of pharaoh closely resembled the camp and tabernacle of Israel. Similar comparisons, of course, could be made with permanent Egyptian and Israelite temple structures. For example, John Gee has written a study comparing the Tabernacle of Exodus with the Egyptian temple of Edfu. He concluded that there must be “some connection between an early form of the [Egyptian] Book of the Temple and the book of Exodus.”[xvii]

Figure 5. Comparison of the Layout and Proportions of Ramesses II’s Camp, the Tabernacle, and the Temple of Solomon[xviii]

Although tents with similar purposes are not unknown elsewhere in the ancient Near East,[xix] Egyptian war tent resemblances to the Tabernacle are the most striking.[xx] Writes Homan:[xxi]

The parallels between Ramesses’ camp and the biblical Tabernacle, beginning with the dimensions, are striking. In each of the reliefs, Ramesses’ camp forms a rectangular courtyard twice as long as it is wide. The main entrance to the courtyard is located in the middle of one of the short walls. A road leads from this entrance to the first of two adjacent tents, the so-called reception tent, the entrance to which lies directly in the middle of the courtyard. The length of the reception tent is twice its width (and, judging from the Abu Simbel relief, its height). The reception tent leads into the pharaoh’s throne tent, which is square, each side being equal to the width of the reception tent. The tent and the camp lie on an east-west axis, with the entrance to the east. Although the orientation is not clear in the reliefs, an inscription at the Ramesseum records that the Hittite chariots pursued the Egyptian princes to the west end of the camp, that is, the camp’s back side.

How does this compare with the desert Tabernacle? The Tabernacle is encompassed by a rectangular courtyard 100 cubits in length and 50 in width, mirroring the 2:1 ratio found at Ramesses’ camp. Like the Egyptian camp, the Tabernacle is oriented east-west, with the entrance to the courtyard in the middle of the eastern wall. The Tabernacle entrance lies directly at the center of the courtyard. The first room consists of a forechamber, the length of which is twice its height and width. The second room, the holy of holies, is a cube, the measurement of each side equaling the width of the forechamber.

The similarities reach beyond the ground plan: At Abu Simbel Ramesses II’s cartouche, in the inner tent, is flanked on either side by a representation of the winged falcon god Horus; the birds’ wings cover the pharaoh’s golden throne. In the innermost room of the Tabernacle, the wings of two cherubim cover Yahweh’s golden throne.

The military function of the Tabernacle. The parallel between the Pharaoh’s war tent and the Israelite Tabernacle may seem strange until one realizes that the Tabernacle “not only functions as a cultic device but also as a military headquarters and the ark is both a palladium for holy war and a cultic object.”[xxii] In a book-length study, Myung Soo Suh gives many examples of why this parallel makes sense, but here we will cite just one example, an example that may clarify a difficult-to-understand detail of the Exodus story:[xxiii]

The despoiling of the Egyptians during the exodus always seems to be a strange motif if one stops reading after the great events of the exodus. Focusing on the Tabernacle, Suh demonstrates that the metal spoils taken from the Egyptians provide the material basis for constructing the Tabernacle. The golden calf, however, was the wrong way to use the jewelry taken from the Egyptians;[xxiv] hence this important episode was placed between the instructions to build the Tabernacle and the Ark in Exodus 25:31 and the execution of these instructions in Exodus 35:40. Suh discovers an antitypal parallel between Exodus 25:31 and Exodus 32.

Figure 6. Reproduction of the barque (boat) shrine in the innermost sanctum of the Temple of Horus at Edfu, the Egyptian equivalent of the Israelite Holy of Holies. Behind the Barque is the shrine where a golden statue of Horus was kept. Each year during the annual festival, the statue of Horus would be placed in his Barque to join the Barque of Hathor in a celebration of their sacred wedding. Photograph by Stephen T. Whitlock

Parallels between the barque and the Srk. Going one step further than Homan’s analysis of the Tabernacle itself, Scott B. Noegel[xxv] has shown:[xxvi]

parallels between the Levite priests’ description of their Ark of the Covenant and Egyptian barks. Though barks are boats, these barks were rarely set in water. They were rather carried in processions. They were sacred ritual objects. Like the ark that the Levites carry in Israel, the barks were sometimes gold-plated, many were decorated with winged cherubs or birds, they were carried on poles by priests, and they served as a throne and footstool. Noegel concluded that “the bark served as a model, which the Israelites adapted for their own needs.”[xxvii]

Figure 7. Protective cherubim decorate the barque shrine of the Temple of Horus at Edfu[xxviii]

Of course, Noegel recognized that to the Israelites, the Ark of the Covenant was not, in fact, a barque:[xxix]

The Israelites conceived of the Ark not as an Egyptian boat with a prow and stern and oars, but as a rectangular object, more akin to the riverine boat that informs the shape of Noah’s Ark.[xxx] Nevertheless, some of the bark’s other aspects remained meaningful in Israelite priestly culture. It still represented a throne and a footstool and so it still served as a symbol of the divine presence. It continued to be a sacred object that one could consult for oracles, and its maintenance continued to be the exclusive privilege of the priests.

Figure 8. Drawing of an Initiation Sequence from a temple at Karnak, ca. 320 BCE. “This sequence … shows how the royal initiation culminated in ritual embraces. In each scene the words of instruction are written over the heads of the speakers.”[xxxi] Photograph by Stephen T. Whitlock[xxxii]

Egyptian Temple Ritual

A notable student ancient and modern temple ordinances in our day was Hugh W. Nibley, a Brigham Young University professor and internationally respected scholar of ancient cultures. Speaking of his own endowment in 1927, he remembered: “I was very serious about it … And the words of the initiatory [part of the endowment] — I thought those were the most magnificent words I have ever heard spoken.”[xxxiii] Admitting that his first visit to the temple had left him “in something of a daze,” his return to the temple after his mission was an overwhelming experience: “At that time I knew it was the real thing. Oh, boy, did I!”[xxxiv]

Nibley’s delight in knowing that the ordinances he received were the “real thing” was not only because he felt and understood the power of the temple personally but also because he recognized that many of the teachings and forms used in modern ordinances resonated with what he already knew about ancient temple worship. Nibley remained a devoted participant and student of the temple throughout his life. His writings drew on his extensive knowledge of the ancient world and illuminated many aspects of restored temple ordinances. He was particularly enthralled with tracing Egyptian rites backward to their earliest surviving traces:[xxxv]

The exercise can be carried back to the Pyramid Texts, the oldest large body of religious writings to survive. This large and disorganized collection does not allow for a neat overall comparison, but all the main themes are there — and no others — indicating that the story begins as it ends, with the same plot and characters. If we take all the topic headings assigned to the various Pyramid Texts by Raymond Faulkner in 1969, we find that they fall readily and completely into six main categories: namely, (1) the importance of a primordial written document on which the rites are based; (2) purification (including anointing, lustration, and clothing texts); (3) creation (the common resurrection and awakening texts); (4) garden (including tree and ritual-meal motifs); (5) travel (protection, “ferryman,” combat, and Osirian texts); and (6) what Faulkner calls “ascension” texts (including victory, coronation, admission to the heavenly company, and Horus texts). These six themes are basic to the mysteries everywhere.

Referring the readers curious for more detail to the extensive explanations of Nibley, here we will give brief, published descriptions of the Karnak sequence without further comment.

Figures 9a, b. “First comes the washing or baptism, then (in another room) the bestowal of crown and throne.” [xxxvi] Photograph by Stephen T. Whitlock

If, then, the endowment is ancient and genuine, could Joseph Smith have derived it from gathering together bits of lore from Egypt and elsewhere? Nibley gives his own answer, and mine, to the question as follows:[xliii]

There are, in fact, countless tribes, sects, societies, and orders from which he might have picked up this and that, had he known of their existence. The Near East in particular is littered with the archaeological and living survivals of practices and teachings which an observant Mormon may find suggestively familiar. The Druzes would have been a gold mine for Smith. He has actually been charged with plundering some of the baggage brought to the West by certain fraternal orders during the Middle Ages — as if the Prophet must rummage in a magpie’s nest to stock a king’s treasury! Among the customs and religions of mankind there are countless parallels, many of them very instructive, to what the Mormons do. But there is a world of difference between Ginzberg’s Legends of the Jews and the book of Isaiah, or between the Infancy Gospels and the real Gospels, no matter how many points of contact one may detect between them. The Latter-day Saint endowment was not built up of elements brought together by chance, custom, or long research; it is a single, perfectly consistent, organic whole, conveying its message without the aid of rationalizing, spiritualizing, allegorizing, or moralizing interpretations.https://latterdaysaintmag.com/what-simi ... e-temples/

[SempiternalHarbinger]

It's good to still see folks taking interest in Hugh Nibley's ancient history works even though President Dallin H Oaks has done everything in his power over the last 30+ years to cancel/erase him. Look at that, the church beat the world in cancel culture. lol.

[TheDuke]

Well, I don't really think anciently the endowment was as it is today. I have been reading Nibley's book on this "Old Testament and Related Studies". It is pretty good. I have also been following his links as much as possible through the apochraphal documents that I can find on line. It shows some things are there, but it is limited to stuff like saying, there was a circle in prayer with the leader in the center (pagans are the same btw) and there were "ordinances" which is his word for covenants and such, and stories. I see only things that say there were secret ceremonies (not in any temple setting) that had some elements, obviously no topics, words, or stories at all. So, while I don't doubt the temple covenants are of the Lord, I don't take Nibley's personal words of alignment very direct. I do like his general assessment that things can align, but to say they really do or say that he felt the endowment was real when he recognized the similarities seems backward. Anyone that has their covenants and doesn't learn by the spirit they are true, has a weak testimony if it is based on weak, ancient, apochraphal history. IMO.

[TheDuke]

BTW I think Nibley does a great job of talking about life on the earth before Adam and Eve with men or other living beings, as well as discussing evolution (he believes in it but not in earthly timelines for man), but discussing mapping DNA to this world and teachings of the creation where day's are not timelines but in god's time where there is no mention of what time means until Adam leaves GoE. Stuff like that I find compelling and a good mapping between science, history and JS. But, his exuberance for mapping the current (JS/BY version anyway) of the endowment to ancient times is quite weak. IMO>

[kirtland r.m.]

BTW I think Nibley does a great job of talking about life on the earth before Adam and Eve with men or other living beings, as well as discussing evolution (he believes in it but not in earthly timelines for man), but discussing mapping DNA to this world and teachings of the creation where day's are not timelines but in god's time where there is no mention of what time means until Adam leaves GoE. Stuff like that I find compelling and a good mapping between science, history and JS. But, his exuberance for mapping the current (JS/BY version anyway) of the endowment to ancient times is quite weak. IMO>

I have lot's of clarifying additional information on this topic. Here is a bit of it. Recent scholarly developments may help us understand further these three stages seen by Nephi. A volume of Gnostic writings from early Christianity, newly translated by Bentley Layton, was published in 1987 by Doubleday. It gives many texts analyzed several years ago by Hugh Nibley in The World and the Prophets and Since Cumorah, showing ways in which early Christian doctrines changed under the influences of Hellenistic philosophy and mystic religion.1 Today there is considerable evidence that secret and sacred covenants of early Christianity were lost early. Baptism for the dead, the use of prayer circles, and the sacrament itself underwent transformation, if not elimination. Similarly, asceticism and celibacy entered Christianity at an early stage to distort the meaning of the covenant of marriage and many passages in the Bible.[1]

John W. Welch, "The Plain and Precious Parts," in Reexploring the Book of Mormon, edited by John W. Welch (Provo, Utah: FARMS, 1992), Chapter 10.

...Conventional Christianity, following Augustine, has always denied that there was any significant teaching of Christ not included in the New Testament, for to admit such would be to admit serious gaps in their own knowledge. Yet Augustine labors to show line by line that the hymn is not heretical (as the Bishops of Nicaea found it 350 years later) but that each statement can be duplicated somewhere in the scriptures.4 The further back we go the more prominent becomes the rite in the church.

The actual performance of such a rite is described in a very old text, attributed to Clement of Rome and preserved in a seventh-century Syriac translation entitled “The Testament of our Lord Jesus Christ as delivered orally by him to us the Apostles after his Resurrection following his death.”5 In celebrating the sacrificial death of the Lord (Pulver calls his study “The Round Dance and the Crucifixion”), the bishop would

...make the sacrifice, the veil of the gate being drawn aside as a sign of the straying of the former people; he would make the offering within the veil along with priests, deacons, authorized widows, subdeacons, deaconesses, readers and such as were endowed with spiritual gifts. As leader the Bishop stands in the middle . . . [the men and women are assigned their places, north, south, east and west, around him]. Then all give each other the sign of peace. Next, when absolute silence is established, the deacon says: “Let your hearts be to heaven. If anyone has any ill feeling towards his neighbor, let him be reconciled. If anyone has any hesitation or mental reservations [doubts] let him make it known; if anyone finds any of the teachings incongenial, let him withdraw [etc.]. For the Father of Lights is our witness with the Son and visiting angels. Take care lest you have aught against your neighbor . . . .

A sort of antiphonal follows with the people in the ring responding to the words of the bishop. Then the bishop begins the prayer proper, the people repeating these same things, praying. He thanks God for the Plan of Salvation, by which “thou hast fulfilled thy purposes by preparing a holy people, hast stretched forth thy hands in suffering, that they who have faith in thee might be freed from such suffering and from the corruption of death.” 7

The identical idea is expressed in the prayer circle so fully described by Bishop Cyril of Jerusalem (ca. A.D. 350) which we have discussed elsewhere.

The Syriac prayer ends: “Grant, therefore, O God, that all those be united with thee who participate in these sacred ordinances” And the people say amen. Bishop: “Give us unity of mind in the Holy Ghost, and heal our spirits . . . that we may live in thee throughout all eternity!” Then certain ordinances are explained to those in the circle: “It is he who gave Adam . . . a garment and the promise that after death he might live again and return to heaven.” It is explained how Christ by the crucifixion reversed the blows of death, “according to the Plan of the Eternal Father laid down before the foundations of the earth.”10

Still older are some documents designated as the Gospel of Bartholomew, belonging to that growing corpus of very early writings believed to contain instructions and teachings given to the Apostles in secret by the Lord after his resurrection.

The prayer spoken in the circle differs every time; it is not strictly prescribed. The one leading the prayer expresses himself as the Spirit moves him, and the others either repeat each line after him (which would not be necessary if they all knew it by heart)

In the Pistis Sophia also, the Lord, having formed the apostles and their wives in a circle around him and “taking the place of Adam at the altar, called upon the Father three times in an unknown tongue.”4

...Then Abraham, according to an old and highly respected source, “rebuilt the altar of Adam in order to bring a sacrifice to the Eternal One,” as he had been instructed by an angel, he raised his voice in prayer, saying: “El, El, El! El Jaoel! [the last meaning Jehovah] . . . receive the words of my prayer! Receive the sacrifice which I have made at thy command! Have mercy, show me, teach me, give to thy servant the light and knowledge thou hast promised to send him!” 45

Abraham was following the example of Adam, who prayed to God for three days, repeating three times the prayer: “May the words of my mouth be heard! God, do not withdraw thyself from my supplication! .

What H. Leclercq calls “that magnificent gesture” of raising both hands high above the head with which those in the prayer circle began their prayer was, as he notes, a natural gesture both of supplication and submission. 50

The prayer asks for light and knowledge as well as other aid, and the answer is a teaching situation. Thus the angels who came down in answer to Adam’s three-fold appeal, “May the words of my mouth be heard!” etc., came with a book, and comforted Adam and taught him.62 Or, in another version, when Adam and Eve prayed at their altar three messengers were sent down to instruct them.63

Indeed, in various accounts Satan tries to get in on the act. We have seen how he smote Adam, interrupting his lessons at the altar. And when Abraham prayed at his altar, “Have mercy, show me, teach me, give to thy servant light and knowledge thou hast promised to send him!” Satan promptly appears on the scene with an insolent “Here I am!” And as he began to teach Abraham, a true messenger from God arrived and cast Satan out and proceeded with the proper instructions.96

As to the teacher, sometimes it is Jaoel or Jehovah as “the heavenly choirmaster,” and sometimes it is Michael or Gabriel. As often as not it is three Sent Ones.100 But of course all the knowledge is sent down from God.

It is Joseph Smith’s prayer circle that puts it all together. Not only did he produce an awesome mass of purportedly ancient writings of perfect inner consistency, but at every point where his contribution is tested—and since he affects to give us concrete historical material as well as theology and cosmology it can be tested at countless points—it is found to agree with other ancient records, most of which are now coming to light for the first time. The prayer circle is one example of that; we may not discuss his version too freely, but we have seen enough of the early Christian prayer circle to justify some important conclusions:

1. It always appears as a solemn ordinance, a guarded secret and a “mystery” for initiates only. This does not express a desire to mystify but the complete concentration and unity of the participants that requires the shutting out of the trivial and distractions of the external world.

2. It always takes place in a special setting—the temple. Even in Christian churches of later time there is a conscious attempt to reproduce as nearly as possible the original temple situation.

3. The words and gestures do not always make sense to outsiders—only “he who has ears to hear” may hear, and only “he who joins in the circle knows what is going on.” This because the prayer circles are integral parts of a longer series of ordinances that proceed and follow them; taken out of that context they necessarily seem puzzling.

4. Though private prayer circles would seem to be out of the question (quackery, magic, and witchcraft made use of them), the members of the circle are never those of a special social rank, family, guild, or profession—they are ordinary men and women of the church, with a high priest presiding.
https://publications.mi.byu.edu/fullscr ... 04&index=4

[In] the Pistis Sophia, a very early Christian writing, written in the third century but sounding as if it belongs to the forty-day literature [we learn more]. When the Lord spoke to the disciples after the resurrection, he formed a prayer circle: his disciples, men and women, stood around behind Jesus, who himself stood at the altar, thus facing, as it were, the four corners of the world, with his disciples who were all clothed in garments of linen (quoting the disciples). Jesus proceeded to give the prayer. The Pistis Sophia claims to be derived from 2 Jeu, a book allegedly written by Enoch and then hidden up in the cleft of a rock. Second Jeu says: "All the apostles were clothed in linen garments, . . . their feet were placed together and they turned themselves to the four corners of the world." And Jesus, taking the place of Adam, proceeded to instruct them in all the necessary ordinances. The point is that when they formed a prayer circle, they always mentioned "clothed in their garments" or "clothed in white linen."

Next comes the passage I cited from Cyril of Jerusalem; it is the fullest description we have, the only definite mention of particular garments. We see why it was not well known and was not followed through: "Yesterday, . . . immediately upon entering you removed your street clothes. And that was the image of putting off the old man and his works. . . . And may that garment, once put off, never be put on again!" "As Christ after his baptism . . . went forth to confront the Adversary, so you after your holy baptism and mystic anointing [the washing and anointing] were clothed in the armor of the Holy Ghost [a protective garment], to stand against the opposing . . . power." "Having put off the old man's garment of sorrow, you now celebrate as you put on the garment of the Lord Jesus Christ." "Having been baptized in Christ and having put on Christ (cf. Gal. 3:27) [notice the imagery that follows: you put on Christ, you put on the new man, you put on the new body; this is very closely connected with the putting on of clothes], like a garment, you come to resemble (symmorphoi gegonate) the Son of God."

The next day Cyril continues, "After you have put off the old garments and put on those of spiritual white, you should keep them always thus spotless white. This is not to say you must always go around in white clothes [these clothes were real; furthermore, we know of the baptismal garments, for we have references to them], but rather that you should always [be] clothed in what is really white and glorious." Then he cites Is. 61:10: "Let my soul exult in the Lord, for he hath clothed me in a robe of salvation and clothing of rejoicing."

From the time of Adam and Eve what was being shared during past gospel dispensations? A lot! For their deliverance came three men, who called upon Adam to rise from the sleep of death and submit to instruction ... When Adam and Eve had heard the words of the three men ... the Creator, who is identical with the God of the Old Testament, caused a darkness to come over their eyes, http://liftapi.com/restoration/for/ligh ... -NH01.html
The garment, sacred marks.(byu published). Amazing ancient information bearing witness of the restoration, enjoy.http://www.templestudy.com/2008/03/21/e ... yum-egypt/witness
Here is more, this time on ancient christian prayer circles.Initiates often repeat the words of the prayer or say "amen" at the end of each line. In another text, Adam is portrayed as the model for all suppliants as he prays with uplifted arms at an altar. Other literature describes the early Christian practices of helping the dead through saving ordinances and of placing names on the prayer altar as a way to devote special prayers to those people. Extensive and varied ancient sources generally state that prayer circles are solemn ordinances designed to introduce initiates to the sacred mysteries of the kingdom; that prayer circles always take place within the temple or a similar setting; that the words and gestures integral to the prayer circle make sense to participants in the context of the circle, but not to outsiders; and that participants in the circle are ordinary church members, with a high priest presiding. The prayer circle as introduced by Joseph Smith provides a perfect consistency between historical materials and theology.(The Early Christian Prayer Circle, BYU Studies 19, no 1(1978): 41–78.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFTXhsMNzBs and part twohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7DHwb5YJO0and part threehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7nr_sACoto

[TheDuke]

Like I said, lots to similarities but nothing to really match the current endowment, let alone the other parts of the ordinances (marriage, washings, etc...). Illusions to similarities. I haven't read all the gnostic stuff, but maybe half of what was linked by Nibley and it was, as I said nice, but when I read the real stuff, it came up short of conclusive. He (and other LDS apologists) have to take liberties with words.

But, Like I said, I have seen Sci Fi movies with Satanic rituals that meet all of those same elements mentioned but they are Holywood..........

BTW, I don't see the gnostics having all that much truth. They seem to have pointers to truths that previously existed but if you truly follow their texts, you will see the seem closer to Hindi or something as the gnostics have no acceptance of eternal elements having anything physical, like bodies, etc... so their rituals (if like the temple) make no sense as they would be for some spiritual plane, not celestial bodied beings. or gods that are evolving, etc... that is counter to gnostic principals. Which is why I have a hard time truly accepting anything directly from them. Sort of like finding deep Catholic truths that map to JS but end up requiring baby baptisms or something. It is a type of picking and choosing. Accepting 2 sentences from a 20 page manuscript. likely more truth and quotes from Nibley in Shakespeare than here.

[gruden2.0]

And yet, the Mormon leadership keeps changing and tweaking the temple ceremony every so often. If you compare what is done now vs. 100 years ago when Nibley partook, there's a very wide divergence. Why do you suppose there's any reason to change an ancient ceremony? Can we say we have an ancient ceremony at all with so many changes having been made?

I would think if you believe in the efficacy of the temple ritual and they are of ancient date, that you would be very upset that they keep getting changed. Didn't the Lord warn against adding or subtracting from His Word? I find it ironic that Adam (accidentally) did this very thing himself and that's how the serpent was able to get leverage over Eve, which is (still?) depicted in the ceremony. It's right in front of us yet we refuse to see.

How did Adam do this accidentally? Not sure what you're referencing.

Just look at what God told Adam about eating the apple versus what Adam told Eve. The message was not the same, that's how the serpent was able to get leverage.

[EvanLM]

what Nibley and others thought was related to our temples were actually pagan worship as well as human sacrafice and orgy places and satan worship.

I have seen the rectangular foundations in cuscos . . so america and other places that are claimed to be baptismal fonts. Not so.

they are public bath houses where young boys were raped by pedophile satan worshippers with other places around the bath house that match human sacrafice and pagan worship.

Montezuma was a drug addicted, immoral, human sacraficer. the spainards did not need an army cuz everyone was so drugged out and busy with pagan worship that it was easy for the spanish explorers to just kill them all. The american indian put on a tougher fight. I suppose MOST people in so america are from european descent and NOT native indians or lamanites.

Same in Egypt. . . . not Christian at all but rather places of human sacraficial worship. The scriptures that are canonized,, support this for the whole world, not just COJCLDS. Oh, we are so bored in church that we want to glamorize every worship into it.

Even the House of Israel had a hard time quitting their pagan worship. It was so much more exciting and the law of moses and god's laws which are pretty boring . No great dancing or orgies.

Endowment was totally restored . . not pagan at all

[EvanLM]

oh yeah and did I mention the pottery musuem at cuscos that has a whole room of the most devious sexual rituals shown on millions of clay jars and plates and bowls, etc. the room makes one sick just walking through it.

I'm gonna bet there is really no trace of temples anywhere or ordinances that match ours today and not preserved anciently. Nibley and ya'all are just seeing the babylon rendition and mental manufacturing that satan wants you to see.