Getting boatloads of B. of M. translation historical info., all showing faking was impossible.

[kirtland r.m.]

Kirtland, appreciate all the sources and your time putting this out there.

Any sources from real time (before 1830) about the Book of Mormon and the translation process? Anything that will evidence certain events. Again, I'm looking for sources that were recorded/printed from the time, not created later (such as Lucy Mack Smiths own diary).

I will see what I can do on this.

[kirtland r.m.]

Second Nephi 1:7 Wherefore, this land is consecrated unto him whom he shall bring. And if it so be that they shall serve him according to the commandments which he hath given, it shall be a land of liberty unto them; wherefore, they shall never be brought down into captivity; if so, it shall be because of iniquity; for if iniquity shall abound cursed shall be the land for their sakes, but unto the righteous it shall be blessed forever.

[kirtland r.m.]

I guess I will die before KRM posts his "boatloads" of information at this rate...

53 solid historical posts so far, I thought I was doing quite well. Are you trolling me?

[blitzinstripes]

The Smithsonian Institute along with others in the Federal Government have covered up findings for the last couple century's.

There is an abundance of old newspapers from the 1800's that detail discoveries of giant skeletons, some with extensive weapons and armor, metal working, etc. All through the heartland and the great lakes region. Puts quite a damper on the meso-America theorists, but the evidence was always there. Much of it was hauled off to the Smithsonian and hidden away. Others were destroyed through carelessness.

[simpleton]

I guess I will die before KRM posts his "boatloads" of information at this rate...

53 solid historical posts so far, I thought I was doing quite well. Are you trolling me?

You are doing well. Just not "boatloads"...

[blitzinstripes]

As I said earlier, this thread can go on for years, I have that much access to information, some little known, on this fascinating ancient scripture and the witnesses and evidence surrounding it. Before I get back to the Ontario post earlier which I full well plan to do, very early in this thread, I said i would post more on Cumorah. This is most interesting.

Not only did Cumorah have loads of battle evidence surrounding it, and for miles spread out in the surrounding areas as I have put up evidence, it also had close access to materials for Moroni to use for his stone box. I have put up evidence by those who say they had seen it. Now here is a bit more on Cumorah it's self.

"After discovering this cave, the Church had a contractor notified about fixing the hole. They came out to the location and put a large thick piece of steel over the hole, (see photo left) and then covered it with dirt. I have some friends who have since been back with detectors and can easily locate the location of where the piece of steel was buried.https://bookofmormonevidence.org/a-hole-in-cumorah/

The above link will also take you to this. About 10 years ago a friend of mine who worked in the Church Video department was on assignment at the Hill Cumorah for a project the Church was working on.

The west side of Hill Cumorah was being prepared for setting up the stage for the Hill Cumorah Pageant. A missionary couple had some guests on a tour showing them around this west facing hill Cumorah. After a time one of the families on tour noticed one of their children was missing from the group. A search for this young man began. After searching for a time the missionary couple and their guest family heard a yell for help several times. They came upon the missing young man who had fallen through an opening in the top west side of the Hill Cumorah.

The hole seemed to be 12-15 feet deep. Someone ran to their car and brought back some jumper cables to assist in bringing the young man up out of the hole.
Enlarge

After the rescue, my video friend was there with the others as they all looked at the hole which was very dark and hard to see anything. (See Photo left)
Enlarge (Notice stacked stone along the wall)

My friend put his camera with its light down the hole and snapped a few pictures. He was very surprised to see the appearance of a cave that was about 15 feet square. The cave was empty (Explained below). On the sides of the walls were stacked stones and there were some stones attached seemingly as shelves coming out from the stacked stones, which would mean the cave would have been man made.

What most people know about the hill Cumorah is that it is classified as a drumlin. “A drumlin, from the Irish word droimnín (“littlest ridge”), first recorded in 1833, and in the classical sense is an elongated hill in the shape of an inverted spoon or half-buried egg formed by glacial ice acting on underlying unconsolidated till or ground moraine.” Source: Wikipedia. Drumlins are created by a glacial drift with moving dirt and debris and won’t leave spaces for caves as other hills and mountains would. Interesting.

The cave was empty (Explained Here)

As you read in Mormon 4:23, “And now I, Mormon, seeing that the Lamanites were about to overthrow the land, therefore I did go to the hill Shim, and did take up all the records which Ammaron had hid up unto the Lord.” This would mean the plates from Shim were hid up in a place close to Hill Cumorah.

In one of Jonathan Nevilles blogs he speaks about how the Cave of all the Plates including the Sword of Laban and Liahona were taken from the Cave at Cumorah and probably taken back to the Hill Shim to hide them from people today. David Whitmer below also explains that possibility.

8. Edward Stevenson, Reminiscences of Joseph, the Prophet, 1877
In his book Reminiscences of Joseph, the Prophet, and the Coming Forth of the Book of Mormon,
Edward Stevenson relates an interview with David Whitmer in 1877:
It was likewise stated to me by David Whitmer in the year 1877 that Oliver Cowdery told him that the Prophet Joseph and himself had seen this room and that it was filled with treasure, and on a table therein were the breastplate and the sword of Laban, as well as the portion of gold plates not yet translated, and that these plates were bound by three small gold rings, and would also be translated, as was the first portion in the days of Joseph. When they are translated much useful information will be brought to light. But till that day arrives, no Rochester adventurers shall ever see them or the treasures,
although science.

9. David Whitmer, Deseret Evening News, 16 August 1878
In an interview with P. Wilhelm Poulson, David Whitmer gave another account of the cave:
[Poulson]: Where are the plates now?
[Whitmer]: In a cave, where the angel has hidden them up till the time arrives when the plates, which are sealed, shall be translated. God will yet raise up a mighty one, who shall do his work till it is finished and Jesus comes again.
[Poulson]: Where is that cave?
[Whitmer]: In the State of New York.
[Poulson]: In the Hill of Comorah?
[Whitmer]: No, but not far away from that place.

8 and 9 above from JOURNAL OF BOOK OF MORMON STUDIES 7-31-2004 Cumorah’s Cave by Cameron J. Packer Volume 13 Number 1 Article 6 Page 55

Much has been said of a cave at Cumorah by early Church leaders, I have posted on this topic on this forum. More coming soon.

I have also seen evidence at Cumorah with my own eyes. I was about 14 years old, along with my small quorum that had made the trip to see the pageant. We had some time to kill and went exploring in the woods There were about five of us who saw the same thing you describe. A church employee found us and chased us off before we were able to fully explore what we had found. As you stated when you described the geology, these hills are not naturally hollow. The hollows/ caves appear to be totally man made and reinforced inside with layered stone.

Interestingly, my father, several years before he even really knew of the church, before his conversion, had been staying with an uncle in the Palmyra area while he took a semester off of college. He often hunted for small game in the property that bordered the hill in the back side (east I believe). He told me of discovering another small cave opening and nearby the ancient remains of a small spring that had been shored up with stones laid in there for support. At the times he figured it was from early Indians, as we had seen such things further south in the mountains of Pennsylvania. He found several spear points and such in the immediate area.

cumorah-hole-1.jpg (346.58 KiB) Viewed 1230 times

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cumorah-hole-2.jpg (517.09 KiB) Viewed 1230 times

** Not my photos. These are from the same source you cited in your post, but I believe it to be the same location/ opening. But my experience happened around 1990 and the opening was smaller and not as immediately visible. We were playing around trying to reach in there, poking long sticks, etc. We couldn't see in very far due to no flashlight and this was pre-cellphone era. We were joking that we found Moroni's cave. A few years ago I found that post that you shared and it stopped me dead in my tracks and I got chills. Still do. I would love to go back and move the plate and explore, but I'm sure they would never let me do it.

I don't believe at this point in time there is anything too valuable left there (additional plates). I'm sure the Lord is guarding them until his due time. But it would be very cool to examine the ancient stonework and dig for artifacts that could prove beneficial to apologists.

On another trip we wondered if we had found the rounded stone that Joseph described. It seemed to us to fit the description, and location, but we were unable to move it. Wondering if the old stone box could still be intact at the least.

[kirtland r.m.]

What Command Syntax Tells Us About Book of Mormon Authorship
Stanford Carmack
Interpreter: A Journal of Latter-day Saint Faith and Scholarship

Abstract: The variety of command syntax found in the Book of Mormon is very different from what is seen in the King James Bible. Yet it is sophisticated and principled, evincing Early Modern English linguistic competence. Interestingly, the syntactic match between the 1829 text and a prominent text from the late 15th century is surprisingly good. All the evidence indicates that Joseph Smith would not have produced the structures found in the text using the King James Bible as a model, nor from his own language. The overall usage profile of command syntax seen in the Book of Mormon strongly supports the view that the Lord revealed specific words to Joseph Smith, not simply ideas.https://journal.interpreterfoundation.o ... uthorship/

[kirtland r.m.]

"When research starts on any given name in the Book of Mormon there is no telling where it will lead and just how much is imbedded in the names. Some are absolutely unique in the Book of Mormon, and to find them on clay tablets in Mesopotamia just blows the mind, but does wonders for the spirit! There is no way that these names and all the others could have been conjured up in less than three months, The Book of Mormon was composed and have the most intimate details substantiated by discoveries of little clay tablets and other inscriptions throughout Turkey, Mesopotamia, Palestine, Egypt and other Middle and Near Eastern countries." Dr. Einar C. Erickson, an expert in ancient documents, ie: Dead Sea Scrolls, Nag Hammadi, and Mandean.

Here is a link to his website.https://www.einarerickson.com/

[kirtland r.m.]

Kirtland, appreciate all the sources and your time putting this out there.

Any sources from real time (before 1830) about the Book of Mormon and the translation process? Anything that will evidence certain events. Again, I'm looking for sources that were recorded/printed from the time, not created later (such as Lucy Mack Smiths own diary).

Here is a good start and an overview of that translation process.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnkrQOEhuHA

I'll see what else I can find which was written early.

[kirtland r.m.]

The Book of Mormon does fit what we know of the ancient world. Its early account of Jerusalem just before the Babylonian captivity gains in plausibility as research continues to accumulate. 20 For example, the name of Lehi’s wife, Sariah, previously unknown outside the Book of Mormon, has been found in ancient Jewish documents from Egypt. 21 Likewise, the nonbiblical name Nephi belongs to the very time and place of the first Book of Mormon figure who bears it. 22 Nephi’s slaying of Laban and the justification given to him by the Lord for doing so can now be seen as instruction that focused on the culture of Nephi’s era. 23

The imagery in Nephi’s vision is deeply rooted in ancient Near Eastern symbolism with which Joseph Smith could not have been familiar. 24 Moreover, its predictions are strikingly accurate. Consider 1 Nephi 13:12 [1 Ne. 13:12], a passage generally applied to Christopher Columbus: “And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.”

Many have been accustomed to see in Columbus merely an adventurer seeking to open trade routes to the East Indies. But with the recent publication of Columbus’s private Book of Prophecies, we see how accurate the Book of Mormon’s description of him is. He said he was guided by the Holy Spirit, and he was eager not only to spread Christianity but to fulfill biblical prophecies. Among his favorite passages were John 10:16, with its reference to “other sheep,” and the passages of Isaiah concerning the people on the “isles of the sea.” 25 These are the very passages that the Book of Mormon applies to itself. 26

In his 1952 essay “Lehi in the Desert,” Hugh Nibley illuminated Lehi’s land journey from Jerusalem by placing it along the coast of the Arabian peninsula. 27 Since that time, Latter-day Saint scholars and explorers have refined our understanding of that route through actual visits and systematic surveys of the area, enabling us to identify likely Book of Mormon locations in Arabia. 28 The Book of Mormon account of Lehi’s Arabian sojourn is remarkably accurate to numerous specific geographic conditions, but no scholar in the 19th century, let alone Joseph Smith, could have known of it. 29

Lehi’s epic journey from Jerusalem to the New World endured in the memory of his descendants, who saw it as a signal instance of God’s miraculous power much like the Israelites’ earlier deliverance from Egyptian bondage. 30 In fact, careful modern readings show that the very terms in which Lehi’s journey was described and remembered derive from the biblical account of the Exodus. The literary crafting of the story is both very sophisticated and authentically Near Eastern. 31
An Old World Culture in a New World Setting

In its smallest details, the Book of Mormon reveals its roots in the ancient Near East. For example, the system of exchange set out in Alma 11:3–19 recalls ancient Babylonian economic legislation. 32 And, after Zemnarihah’s execution (3 Ne. 4:28), the tree upon which he had been hanged was ritually chopped down, just as ancient Jewish law required. 33 The oath of allegiance taken by Nephite soldiers in Alma 46:21–22 is almost identical in form to military oaths among ancient Israelite and Hittite warriors. 34 And the curse of speechlessness placed upon Korihor in Alma 30:49 finds striking ancient parallels. 35

King Benjamin’s classic address in Mosiah 2–5 occupies roughly 11 pages in the current English edition, which means that Joseph Smith may have dictated this doctrinally rich text of nearly 5,000 words in a little more than one day. Recent research shows that the sermon is intimately linked with the ancient Israelite Feast of Tabernacles and the Day of Atonement, as well as with archaic treaty and covenant formulas and early Near Eastern coronation festivals. 36 Even the physical setting of the speech—delivered while the king stood upon a tower (see Mosiah 2:7)—is ritually appropriate to the occasion. But the Prophet Joseph Smith could not have learned this from the English Bibles or any other books available to him. 37

Likewise, he could not have known that the ancient Hebrew term moshia’ signifies a champion of justice against oppression, appointed by God, whose mission it is to liberate a chosen people from oppression, especially by nonviolent means. The term does not occur in the English of the King James Bible. But such nonviolent deliverance is a major theme of the book of Mosiah. 38

The appearance of the two men named Alma in the Book of Mormon has occasioned much comment from critics. They observe that Alma is a woman’s name and Latin rather than Hebrew. (Many recognize the phrase alma mater, which means “beneficent mother” and refers to the school from which someone has graduated.) They are correct, of course. If Joseph Smith knew the name Alma at all in the early 19th century, he would have known it as a woman’s name in Latin. Recent documentary finds demonstrate, however, that Alma also occurs as a Semitic masculine personal name in the ancient Near East—just as it does in the Book of Mormon. 39

Alma 7:10 predicts that Jesus “shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers.” Is this a mistake? Everyone knows that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, not in Jerusalem. But it is now plain from modern evidence that Bethlehem could be, and indeed was, regarded anciently as a town in the “land of Jerusalem.”

A recently released text from the Dead Sea Scrolls, for example—a text claiming origin in Jeremiah’s days (and therefore in Lehi’s)—says that the Jews of that period were “taken captive from the land of Jerusalem.” 40 Joseph Smith could not have learned this from the Bible, though, for no such language appears in it.

The recent discovery in the Book of Mormon of its characteristically ancient literary structure or technique known as chiasmus—a rhetorical device overlooked by biblical scholarship until decades after Joseph Smith’s death—is another powerful indicator of the record’s antiquity. 41 The same literary structure has now been identified in pre-Columbian America. 42 An understanding of the chiastic construction of Alma 36 also impressively deepens our understanding of the Christ-centered character of that entire chapter and of the Book of Mormon’s witness as a whole.

Another intriguing example of chiasmus occurs in Helaman 6:10 [Hel. 6:10]. Here, the chiastic turning point rests on an equivalence between the word Lord and the royal name Zedekiah. But those words are only equivalent for readers who are aware that the term Lord probably stands (as it does in the King James Bible) for the divine name Jehovah or Yahweh, and that the -iah element in Zedekiah is the first portion of that same divine name. Also this chiasm works better in Hebrew than in English, which is an important and remarkable clue to the original language of the Book of Mormon. 43

Many such clues appear among the book’s place names. Jershon, for instance, designates a place that was given to the people of Anti-Nephi-Lehi as a “land … for an inheritance” (Alma 27:22). In Hebrew, Jershon means “a place of inheritance.” 44 Joseph Smith simply would not have known this in the late 1820s.

The allegory of the olive tree in Jacob 5 shows a clear knowledge of olive cultivation far beyond what Joseph Smith, growing up in the American Northeast, could have possessed. But it is entirely consistent, in impressive detail, with what we learn from ancient manuals on olive cultivation. 45 Likewise, the account of the great destruction given in 3 Nephi 8 [3 Ne. 8] finds remarkable parallels with what modern seismology and vulcanology show about cataclysmic geological events and with historical reports of such catastrophes. Yet Joseph Smith never saw a volcano and never experienced a significant earthquake, nor is it likely he had read any substantial literature on the subject. 46

Summing Up

As Latter-day Saints, we must never take the Book of Mormon for granted. Its sheer existence is astonishing. That it was produced by an almost completely uneducated young man constitutes a challenge to the entire world. Yet its historical narrative is sober and realistic. Its content is rich, profound, and subtly complex. 48 And though dictated at a rapid pace, it tells a highly consistent and very complex story involving scores of place and personal names and internal quotations. 49

Persons who choose to dismiss the Book of Mormon must find their own ideas for explaining it and the mounting evidence for its authenticity. And while we will never “prove” the Book of Mormon true, the trajectory of the evidence strongly suggests that it is exactly what it claims to be, a book worthy of our deep study, reflection, and serious personal prayer. Thousands of hours of research have produced the current blossoming of Book of Mormon studies that bless the lives of Latter-day Saints. They cannot be lightly brushed aside.

The conclusion of the matter is that much modern evidence supports the more powerful witness of the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is true. Joseph Smith, who translated it, had to be what he said he was, a prophet of God. The Church of Jesus Christ has been restored. Most important, the Book of Mormon and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints affirm that Jesus is the Christ, the divine Savior of the world, and that He will come someday in the future in the manner that the scriptures herald.
Here is the link in case you want to check out the footnotes[url]https://www.lds.org/ensign/2000/01/moun ... 01_000_006[/url

[kirtland r.m.]

Joseph Smith may have known that Hebrew was the language of Lehi, but how did he know of the huge cultural impact of Egypt on Israel in 600 B.C.? Lehi's descendants used "Reformed Egyptian" to write on the metal plates for brevity, and the 2 languages/cultures clearly influenced the Book of Mormon people. https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/evi ... uage/Names

[W]e [can now] test certain proper names in the Book of Mormon in the light of actual names from Lehi's world, unknown in the time of Joseph Smith. Not only do the names agree, but the variations follow the correct rules, and the names are found in correct statistical proportions, the Egyptian and Hebrew types being of almost equal frequency, along with a sprinkling of Hittite, Arabic, and Greek names. To reduce speculation to a minimum, the lesson is concerned only with highly distinctive and characteristic names, and to clearly stated and universally admitted rules. Even so, the reader must judge for himself. In case of doubt he is encouraged to correspond with recognized experts in the languages concerned. The combination of the names Laman and Lemuel, the absence of Baal names, the predominance of names ending in -iah—such facts as those need no trained philologist to point them out; they can be demonstrated most objectively, and they are powerful evidence in behalf of the Book of Mormon....

There is in the Book of Mormon, within one important family, a group of names beginning with Pa-. They are peculiar names and can be matched exactly in Egyptian. Names beginning with Pa- are by far the most common type in late Egyptian history, but what ties Pahoran's family most closely to Egypt is not the names but the activities in which the bearers of those names are engaged; for they sponsor the same institutions and engineer the same intrigues as their Egyptian namesakes did centuries before—and in so doing they give us to understand they are quite aware of the resemblance!
There is a tendency for Egyptian and Hebrew names in the Book of Mormon to turn up in the Elephantine region of Upper Egypt. It is now believed that when Jerusalem fell in Lehi's day a large part of the refugees fled to that region.
The most frequent "theophoric" element by far in the Book of Mormon names is Ammon. The same is true of late Egyptian names. The most common formative element in the Book of Mormon names is the combination Mor-, Mr-; in Egyptian the same holds true.
Egyptian names are usually compound and are formed according to certain rules. Book of Mormon names are mostly compound and follow the same rules of formation.
Mimation (ending with -m) predominated in Jaredite names, nunation (ending with -n) in Nephite and Lamanite names. This is strictly in keeping with the development of languages in the Old World, where mimation was everywhere succeeded by nunation around 2000 B.C., that is, well after the Jaredites had departed, but long before the Nephites.
A large proportion of Book of Mormon names end in -iah and -ihah. The same ending is peculiar to Palestinian names of Lehi's time but not so prevalent other times.
The names in the Book of Mormon that are neither Egyptian nor Hebrew are Arabic, Hittite (Hurrian), or Greek. This is in keeping with the purported origin of the book.
Lehi is a real personal name, unknown in the time of Joseph Smith. It is only met with in the desert country, where a number of exemplars have been discovered in recent years.
Laman and Lemuel are not only "Arabic" names, but they also form a genuine "pair of pendant names," such as ancient Semites of the desert were wont to give their two eldest sons, according to recent discoveries.
The absence of "Baal-" names (that is, names compounded with the theophoric Baal element) is entirely in keeping with recent discoveries regarding common names in the Palestine of Lehi's day....

Out of a hundred possible points we have confined ourselves to a mere sampling, choosing ten clear-cut and telling philological demonstrations by way of illustration. The force of such evidence inevitably increases with its bulk, but we believe enough has been given to indicate that Eduard Meyer did not consider all the factors when he accused Joseph Smith of "letting his fancy run free" in inventing the Book of Mormon names.46 The fact is that nearly all the evidence for the above points has come forth since the death of Meyer. Let us be fair to him, but let us in all fairness be fair to the Book of Mormon as well

Recently there have been discovered lists of the names of prisoners that Nebuchadnezzar brought back to Babylon with him from his great expedition into Syria and Palestine.7 These represent a good cross section of proper names prevailing in those lands in the days of Lehi, and among them is a respectable proportion of Egyptian names, which is what the Book of Mormon would lead us to expect. Also in the list are Philistine (cf. Book of Mormon Minon and Pathros!), Phoenician, Elamite, Median, Persian, Greek, and Lydian names—all the sweepings of a campaign into Lehi's country. According to D. W. Thomas, this list shows that it was popular at the time to name children after Egyptian hero kings of the past.8 A surprisingly large number of the non-Hebraic Nephite names are of this class. Thus the name Aha, which a Nephite general bestowed on his son, means "warrior" and was borne by the legendary first hero king of Egypt. Himni, Korihor, Paanchi, Pakumeni, Sam, Zeezrom, Ham, Manti, Nephi, and Zenoch are all Egyptian hero names.9 Zeniff certainly suggests the name Zainab and its variants, popular among the desert people, of which the feminine form of Zenobia was borne by the most glamorous woman of ancient times next to Cleopatra and that other desert queen, the Queen of Sheba. Recently Beeston has identified Zoram in both its Hebrew and Arabic forms.10 In another old name list, the Tell Taannek list, the elements bin, zik, ra, and -andi are prominent, as in the Book of Mormon.

The Hittite names in the Book of Mormon all come to us in an Egyptianized form, which is what one would expect in Lehi's Palestine where Hittite names still survived even though Hittite language was probably not used.20 Thus the Nephite Manti, while suggesting the Egyptian Manti, Monti, Menedi, etc., also recalls the Egyptian name of a Hittite city, Manda. A highly characteristic element of Hittite and Hurrian names are Manti and -andi, likewise common in the Book of Mormon. The Nephite Kumen, Kumen-onhi, Kishkumen certainly remind one of the Egyptian-Hittite name of an important city, Kumani; Nephite Seantum is cognate with Egyptian-Hittite Sandon, Sandas; the Jaredite Akish and Kish are both found in the Old World, where they are of very great antiquity, Akish being the Egyptian-Hittite name for Cyprus.21 Most interesting is the Nephite city of Gadiandi, whose name exactly parallels the Egyptian rendering of the name of a Hittite city, Cadyanda.22 It should be borne in mind that one of the great discoveries and upsets of the twentieth century has been the totally unsuspected importance and extent of the Hittite penetration of Hebrew civilization. Every year the Hittites receive new importance in the Hebrew story. The Book of Mormon has not overdone its -andis and -antis!
Hugh W. Nibley, An Approach to the Book of Mormon, 3rd edition, (Vol. 6 of the Collected Works of Hugh Nibley), edited by John W. Welch, (Salt Lake City, Utah : Deseret Book Company ; Provo, Utah : Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, 1988), Chapter 22, references silently removed—consult original for citations.

[kirtland r.m.]

Apostle Orson Pratt and Apostle Joseph F. Smith interviewed David Whitmer in later years and asked him about the Angel Moroni and also the suspected Nephite who plowed his field. Whitmer relates:

The fact is, it was just as though Joseph, Oliver and I were sitting just here on a log, when we were overshadowed by a light. It was not like the light of the sun nor like that of a fire, but more glorious and beautiful. It extended away round us, I cannot tell how far, but in the midst of this light about as far off as he sits (pointing to John C. Whitmer, sitting a few feet from him), there appeared as it were, a table with many records or plates upon it, besides the plates of the Book of Mormon, also the Sword of Laban the directors–i.e., the ball which Lehi had, and the Interpreters. I saw them just as plain as I see this bed (striking the [43] bed beside him with his hand), and I heard the voice of the Lord, as distinctly as I ever heard anything in my life, declaring that the records of the plates of the Book of Mormon were translated by the gift and power of God.

Elder O.P.: Did you see the Angel at this time?

D.W.: Yes; he stood before us. Our testimony as recorded in the Book of Mormon is strictly and absolutely true, just as it is there written. Before I knew Joseph, I had heard about him and the plates from persons who declared they knew he had them, and swore they would get them from him. When Oliver Cowdery went to Pennsylvania, he promised to write me what he should learn about these matters, which he did. He wrote me that Joseph had told him his (Oliver’s) secret thoughts, and all he had meditated about going to see him, which no man on earth knew, as he supposed, but himself, and so he stopped to write for Joseph.

Soon after this, Joseph sent for me (D.W.) to come: to Harmony to get him and Oliver and bring them to my father’s house. I did not know what to do, I was pressed with my work. I had some 20 acres to plow, so I concluded I would finish plowing and then go. I got up one morning to go to work as usual, and on going to the field, found between five and seven acres of my ground had been plowed during the night.

I don’t know who did it; but it was done just as I would have done it myself, and the plow was left standing in the furrow.

This enabled me to start sooner. When I arrived at Harmony, Joseph and Oliver were coming toward me, and met me some distance from the house. Oliver told me that Joseph had informed him when I started from home, where l had stopped the first night, how I read the sign [44] at the tavern, where l stopped the next night, etc., and that I would be there that day before dinner, and this was why they had come out to meet me; all of which was exactly as Joseph had told Oliver, at which I was greatly astonished. When I was returning to Fayette, with Joseph and Oliver, all of us riding in the wagon, Oliver and I on an old-fashioned wooden spring seat and Joseph behind us; while traveling along in a clear open place, a very pleasant, nice-looking old man suddenly appeared by the side of our wagon and saluted us with, “Good morning, it is very warm,” at the same time wiping his face or forehead with his hand. He returned the salutation, and, by a sign from Joseph, I invited him to ride if he was going our way. But he said very pleasantly, “No, I am going to Cumorah.” This name was something new to me; I did not know what Cumorah meant. We all gazed at him and at each other, and as I looked around enquiringly of Joseph, the old man instantly disappeared, so that I did not see, him again.

J.F.S.: Did you notice his appearance?

D.W.: I should think I did. He was, I should think, about 5 feet 8 or 9 inches tall and heavy set, about such a man as James Vaucleave there, but heavier; his face was as large, he was dressed in a suit of brown woolen clothes, his hair and beard were white, like Brother Pratt’s, but his beard was not so heavy. I also remember that he had on his back a sort of knapsack with something in, shaped like a book. it was the messenger who had the plates, who had taken them from Joseph just prior to our starting from Harmony. (Mill. Star, 1878, p. 772)

[kirtland r.m.]

The light filters down from many generations.

Further North American ancient information. Here are a few highlights all published from one source.

Why were the apparent teachings of Jesus Christ already familiar to North American aboriginals before their first contact with modern Europeans in the 16th Century?

The Algonkin of the Eastern Seaboard

He gave them many medicine lodges whose signs and symbols are secret, fashioned from those across the ocean, and even today they hold this secret knowledge. Even the proud Dacootah, they of the Turtle Totem, leading north the line of Serpents, often their age-old migration, recall in long-lost adoration the sacred name of the pale faced Healer. “It was long ago that we knew Him. He gave to us our rite of baptism, many of our lodges, and our rites of purification.

Tribes of the Great Lakes

Besides the shores of Mishee-gahme-gahme (Lake Superior) is the forest still called Sacred, in the state called Michigan… let us speak of the Prophet. He was bearded, and pale of feature-without doubt a White Man. His eyes were as grey-green as still green water, and just as changeable in their color. He came to us one day at dawning and the light touched His hair with the sheen of red-gold until it shone like newly-mined copper. Yet He was not as the men of your people. This one was a god, with high soul-stature. If He touched a man who was wounded, that one became healed. His robe was long and white down to the hemline which almost hid His golden sandals. Everyone wished to make Him white robes, for then He would leave behind the old ones, and all that He touched was enchanted with His god-like power of healing.”

“…He came alone. He organized the churches, changed the temples, taught the priesthood. Some say He taught them a secret language with certain signs of greeting. I know not.”
“…He came to us when we had cities more than a thousand winters before the days of the Black Robes and the Long Knives.” “…The ruins have been scattered by White Men.”
“…The city which we call sacred is not far from here. Its history is longer than that of England’s London.”

“…Once we had books and priests to read them, but those were times long distant in the past. Books are of stuff which can be swept to oblivion. Since then we have placed our stories in the chants of our people, but now even these are being forgotten…”

“Coming North from our Capitol City, where the Mississippi meets the Missouri, in the long-boats of the traders, the Prophet made His Journey toward the City we called Sacred. This was an ancient metropolis. Before we built its Mound of Extinction, after the Great Civil War of the Turtles, ninety-six dynasties of rulers had lived their long and eventful history. Like the Capitol, it too…had buildings built upon great crests… This city was called Sacred because it was in the center of the Cross of Waters from whence ran the rivers to the Four Oceans. East to the Sunrise ran the waters, and Northward to the Sea of Dancing Lights; to the West beyond the Great Divide the waters ran to the Sea of the Sunset, while the Missouri and Mississippi ran to the Southern Sea, the Sea of the Karibs… to this, the City of the Great Cross of Waters, up the river called Father of Waters, one golden morning came the Healer… The streets were covered with flowers strewn in homage on the path before Him as He walked toward the Temple. Greatly beloved now was the Pale God, known as the Lord of Wind and Water. His every move bespoke His kindness: His very touch revealed His divinity; and before Him all the people bowed down. Through the rows of worshippers He moved to the Temple, in quiet solemnity. holding up His hand in blessing-that hand with the strange palm-marking, for through it was engraved the True Cross which He had taken as His Symbol. There at the Temple He abode among us, though He often rode away with the merchants. or more often walked to distant villages. holding in His hand His great staff, and stopping to speak with all the people. from the aged to the children.”

In Fair Gods and Feathered Serpents, author T. J. O’Brien writes. “One might argue, if Christ did not come here, how does one explain the religious use by New World natives of vestments, the cross, chants, rituals, incense, ceremonial objects, infant baptism and great works of religious art: statues and paintings, also identified with Christianity?” The native peoples of this land have been ignored and held without respect long enough. It’s time to listen! There is much to be shared and to learn from North America’s original people. Legend has it that the Western Hemisphere is the place of origin, not the Eastern. With diffusion on the rise of credibility no one really knows ancient man’s true capability for migrations and travel. Vine Deloria Jr. says in the January issue of Atlantic Monthly Magazine, “There’s no effort to ask the tribes what they remember… and numerous tribes do say that strange people Came through our land. Or, they remember that we came across the Atlantic as refugees"

The predominant glyph found on Burrows Cave objects is the so-called “Helios Symbol,” coined by epigrapher, Paul Shaffranke. Even this important character is found in conjunction with the Michigan symbol to suggest some type of interaction between theses two other otherwise distinct groups. Perhaps these glyphs have the same meaning. There appear to have been vital differences between these two groups of ancient Americans: non-christian imagery dominates the Burrows cave stones.

Still, there are legitimate doubts among our own diffusionist supporters concerning these “Christ Stones,” due largely to some relatively minor variations in the placement of the glyphs, together with the anomalous appearance of a particular symbol on the Michigan objects. Clearly, much work still needs to be done in any comparisons of these two diverse collections. The evidence of the Michigan Tablets and Burrows Cave stones suggests that some fundamentally important culture-bearer visited our Western Hemisphere in pre-Columbian times. Was it actually Christ? Or on of his disciples? Whatever his true identity, the arrival of this person left a deep impact on the tribal memories of Native Americans. Their “Yod-hey-vah” is remarkably similar to the biblical Je-ho-vah, who seems to be portrayed throughout the Michigan plates.

The following is a partial listing of the oral traditions of the Dawn God, Peacemaker, East Star Man, the Pale One, etc., from He Walked the Americas, by L. Taylor Hansen, Legend press, Amherst, Wisconsin twentieth printing 1994,© with permission and The Gospel of the Great Spirit, by Joshua Moses Bennett, Morning Star Publishing Company, Inc., first printing 1990:

“Grey Owl made many friends among the various tribes, and they often sat for long comparing legends and traditions as well as their present day problems.
He noticed that although nature legends often differed, and historical tradition told of different experiences, all the tribes shared one common memory- that of a wonderful prophet and teacher, a holy man who walked among the people in ages long gone by. Though he was called by various names and the stories differed from tribe to tribe, all agreed upon this point: the divine visitor was pale of skin, had sea-green eyes, and a beard and hair of copper color
Always he taught the lessons of love and peace, of man’s obligation to his fellowmen, and of the love of the Father-of-all for his children. It was he who had instituted all of our finer impulses of concern for one another.”

“It is said that once very long ago before the coming of the white man, long before the time of our grandfather’s grandfathers, a stranger came to our people.

He appeared suddenly, as they were gathered around together about the council fire; and at first the people were much afraid, thinking him to be a spirit. It is said that he was of strange appearance, that his skin was pale as a ghost, and there was hair upon his face.
But soon they saw that they had nothing to fear, for he said that he had come from the Great Spirit to teach them to live in love together.

illustrative Legend of Eagle Claw:

“The Healer went about our village making the blind to see, the lame walk, and the scarred without blemish. He spoke to the people of our village when they gathered around as he stood at the entrance of the wiggota. He spoke in our tongue, but none thought it strange that this stranger knew our words.

In his Cherokee religion, Langdon writes of the Pale Prophet, When he came to the Yakima people, they called him Tacoma, and so greatly did they pay him reverence that they renamed their highest mountain in honor of his coming.

“My friend said that when Tacoma left them, He promised the sorrowing people that one day through the light of the dawning. He, Tacoma, would return to them. Through the long vistas of the moon, the sun and the dawn star, the people still remember this promise and always faithfully watched for Tacoma, and dying have told their children to keep on watching .”

Author L. Taylor Hansen wrote intriguingly of a site in New York State:

“On the authority of some older inhabitants of Onondaga, it is stated that on a ledge of rocks, about a mile south of Jamesville, is a place which used to be pointed out by the Indians as a spot where the Great Spirit once came down and sat and gave good advice to the chiefs of Onondagas. That there are the prints of his hands and his feet, left in the rocks, still to be seen. In the former years the Onondagas used annually to offer, at this place, tobacco and pipes, and to burn tobacco and herbs as a sacrifice to the Great Spirit, to conciliate his favor and which was a means of preventing diseases.”

About eight miles southeast of Newark, the father of Bancroft, Indian recorder of untold legends, speaks of finding the only engraved stone pictograph of the white-robed teacher. About His head, in Ancient Hebrew were the words of the Ten commandments. His hair and beard are well pictured as well as His flowing robe…https://josephsmithfoundation.org/chris ... h-america/

[kirtland r.m.]

Many Book of Mormon names have also been shown to have Semitic or Egyptian origins.44 Like other ancient texts, Book of Mormon names are used in wordplays that get lost in translation.45 For example, when Zeniff asks the Lamanite king if his people might “possess the land in peace,” the Lamanites give them “the land of Lehi-Nephi, and the land of Shilom” (Mosiah 9:5–6; emphasis added). The name Shilom is based on the Hebrew root shlm, meaning “peace.” Zeniff further uses this root in an ironic twist: there was ultimately no peace but rather war in the land of Shilom.46

This is only a small sample of proposed Hebraisms and other Semitic-like features found in the Book of Mormon. Many other examples could be given, including additional examples not immediately apparent in English translations of the Bible.47https://latterdaysaintmag.com/why-are-t ... of-mormon/

So much for Joseph copying similar biblical text into Book of Mormon pages.

[kirtland r.m.]

Want 400 different groupings of evidences for the Book of Mormon with a single click, so enjoy, and have fun picking out some that look interesting to you. Thanks Evidence Central!https://evidencecentral.org/recency

[kirtland r.m.]

I would add to the following quote, the Bible as well.

“The power of the Holy Ghost … must ever be the chief source of evidence for the Book of Mormon. All other evidence is secondary. … No arrangement of evidence, however skillfully ordered; no argument, however adroitly made, can ever take its place.” Elder B. H. Roberts (1857–1933) of the Seventy

However, because it is true, the evidence will continue to increase. The Prophet’s critics found his claim of angelic visits and gold plates ridiculous, we now know that the writing of religious texts on metal plates (sometimes on gold), was an authentic ancient practice. Indeed, the ancient practice now is known to have occurred at precisely the era and place from which Book of Mormon peoples came.8 In fact, with the Copper Scroll and other materials from the Dead Sea, we have an almost exact parallel: like the ancient Nephite plates, these materials were sealed up in a hillside just prior to military disaster, to preserve them for a future time.

In recent years, rigorous statistical analysis strongly indicates that neither Joseph Smith nor any of his known associates composed the English text of the Book of Mormon. In fact, research suggests that the book was written by numerous distinct authors.18

And research shows that the book does not seem to fit the culture of early 19th-century America. There is little of the military romanticism of Joseph Smith’s America. Instead, we see grimly realistic portrayals of war’s devastation and suffering.

The Book of Mormon does fit what we know of the ancient world. Its early account of Jerusalem just before the Babylonian captivity gains in plausibility as research continues to accumulate.20 For example, the name of Lehi’s wife, Sariah, previously unknown outside the Book of Mormon, has been found in ancient Jewish documents from Egypt.21 Likewise, the nonbiblical name Nephi belongs to the very time and place of the first Book of Mormon figure who bears it.22 Nephi’s slaying of Laban and the justification given to him by the Lord for doing so can now be seen as instruction that focused on the culture of Nephi’s era.23

The imagery in Nephi’s vision is deeply rooted in ancient Near Eastern symbolism with which Joseph Smith could not have been familiar.24 Moreover, its predictions are strikingly accurate. Consider 1 Nephi 13:12 [1 Ne. 13:12], a passage generally applied to Christopher Columbus: “And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.”

In his 1952 essay “Lehi in the Desert,” Hugh Nibley illuminated Lehi’s land journey from Jerusalem by placing it along the coast of the Arabian peninsula.27 Since that time, Latter-day Saint scholars and explorers have refined our understanding of that route through actual visits and systematic surveys of the area, enabling us to identify likely Book of Mormon locations in Arabia.28 The Book of Mormon account of Lehi’s Arabian sojourn is remarkably accurate to numerous specific geographic conditions, but no scholar in the 19th century, let alone Joseph Smith, could have known of it.29

In its smallest details, the Book of Mormon reveals its roots in the ancient Near East. For example, the system of exchange set out in Alma 11:3–19 recalls ancient Babylonian economic legislation.32 And, after Zemnarihah’s execution (3 Ne. 4:28), the tree upon which he had been hanged was ritually chopped down, just as ancient Jewish law required.33 The oath of allegiance taken by Nephite soldiers in Alma 46:21–22 is almost identical in form to military oaths among ancient Israelite and Hittite warriors.34 And the curse of speechlessness placed upon Korihor in Alma 30:49 finds striking ancient parallels.35

King Benjamin’s classic address in Mosiah 2–5 occupies roughly 11 pages in the current English edition, which means that Joseph Smith may have dictated this doctrinally rich text of nearly 5,000 words in a little more than one day. Recent research shows that the sermon is intimately linked with the ancient Israelite Feast of Tabernacles and the Day of Atonement, as well as with archaic treaty and covenant formulas and early Near Eastern coronation festivals.36 Even the physical setting of the speech—delivered while the king stood upon a tower (see Mosiah 2:7)—is ritually appropriate to the occasion. But the Prophet Joseph Smith could not have learned this from the English Bibles or any other books available to him.37https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... n?lang=eng

More to follow...

[JSmith]

The Smithsonian Institute along with others in the Federal Government have covered up findings for the last couple century's.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

There is zero extraordinary evidence for this

[kirtland r.m.]

The Smithsonian Institute along with others in the Federal Government have covered up findings for the last couple century's.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

There is zero extraordinary evidence for this

They do what much of academia does. They ignore what they don't agree with or understand. I have posted directly about the Smithsonian in the past and I will have more to say in the future about this. I am never afraid to face this stuff head on and I will continue to do so. I have additional o.p.'s in the pipeline and when I have time I will focus directly on academia including the Smithsonian. I am still interested in why, by the way, you like to call yourself JSmith and all of your past posts are anti J.S.. Just mocking I suppose, just like another one of my fans, salamander. I am still waiting for a markhoffman to show up at some point.

[Ymarsakar]

Claims need evidence to be considered true.

Extraordinary claims are the same as other claims. There is no evidence different claims require diffetrnt levels of evidence.

If the argument is that scientific consensus needs to raise the bar of evidence for that which they cannot disprove, the issue lies with the human arrogance in consensus not in science.

[kirtland r.m.]

Joseph Smith could not have known that the ancient Hebrew term moshia’ signifies a champion of justice against oppression, appointed by God, whose mission it is to liberate a chosen people from oppression, especially by nonviolent means. The term does not occur in the English of the King James Bible. But such nonviolent deliverance is a major theme of the book of Mosiah.38

The appearance of the two men named Alma in the Book of Mormon has occasioned much comment from critics. They observe that Alma is a woman’s name and Latin rather than Hebrew. (Many recognize the phrase alma mater, which means “beneficent mother” and refers to the school from which someone has graduated.) They are correct, of course. If Joseph Smith knew the name Alma at all in the early 19th century, he would have known it as a woman’s name in Latin. Recent documentary finds demonstrate, however, that Alma also occurs as a Semitic masculine personal name in the ancient Near East—just as it does in the Book of Mormon.39

Alma 7:10 predicts that Jesus “shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers.” Is this a mistake? Everyone knows that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, not in Jerusalem. But it is now plain from modern evidence that Bethlehem could be, and indeed was, regarded anciently as a town in the “land of Jerusalem.”

A recently released text from the Dead Sea Scrolls, for example—a text claiming origin in Jeremiah’s days (and therefore in Lehi’s)—says that the Jews of that period were “taken captive from the land of Jerusalem.”40 Joseph Smith could not have learned this from the Bible, though, for no such language appears in it.

The recent discovery in the Book of Mormon of its characteristically ancient literary structure or technique known as chiasmus—a rhetorical device overlooked by biblical scholarship until decades after Joseph Smith’s death—is another powerful indicator of the record’s antiquity.41 The same literary structure has now been identified in pre-Columbian America.42 An understanding of the chiastic construction of Alma 36 also impressively deepens our understanding of the Christ-centered character of that entire chapter and of the Book of Mormon’s witness as a whole.

Another intriguing example of chiasmus occurs in Helaman 6:10 [Hel. 6:10]. Here, the chiastic turning point rests on an equivalence between the word Lord and the royal name Zedekiah. But those words are only equivalent for readers who are aware that the term Lord probably stands (as it does in the King James Bible) for the divine name Jehovah or Yahweh, and that the -iah element in Zedekiah is the first portion of that same divine name. Also this chiasm works better in Hebrew than in English, which is an important and remarkable clue to the original language of the Book of Mormon.43

Many such clues appear among the book’s place names. Jershon, for instance, designates a place that was given to the people of Anti-Nephi-Lehi as a “land … for an inheritance” (Alma 27:22). In Hebrew, Jershon means “a place of inheritance.”44 Joseph Smith simply would not have known this in the late 1820s.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... n?lang=eng

[kirtland r.m.]

Barley comes up in the Book of Mormon four different times (Mosiah 7:22; 9:9; Alma 11:7, 15). Yet prior to A.D. 1492, this grain wasn’t known to have existed, let alone cultivated, in this hemisphere. Thus, more fodder for Book of Mormon criticism and ridicule.

It wasn’t until 1983 that archeologists acknowledged the existence and cultivation of a type of New World barley that dated to as early as 800 B.C.

This information comes from Five Compelling Archeological Evidences For the Book of Mormon.https://bookofmormoncentral.org/blog/fi ... -of-mormon

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

There's one translation issue with the Book of Mormon (which I hope you can resolve since I really want the Book of Mormon to be what it's claimed to be...). Can you speak to a tight and loose translation?

A tight translation would be that the exact words of the Book of Mormon appeared, word by word, on the seer stone in the hat. Joseph read them word for word out loud and a scribe recorded his dictation. Joseph waited for the scribe to indicate that the words had been recorded and then he moved on to the next phrase or phrases.

In a loose translation, Joseph would have received a summary of the text from the seer stone and then in his own words interpreted the meaning and dictated his impressions and the details of those impressions into King James English.

The accounts we have indicate it was a tight translation. The seer stone translated, from reformed Egyptian directly into English and Jospeh read the words that appeared in the stone in his hat.

The problem with that method is that the King James English wasn't in use until 1400 AD. It didn't exist at 600 BC or 400 AD. How were writers of Reformed Egyptian able to format their language so that a word for word translation would end up following King James English sentence structure, vernacular, and composition?

Or how did writers of reformed Egyptian know, for example, to use the word farthing (an English coin common in 1829 Palmyra) in the Sermon on the Mount that Appears in 3 Nephi in the original Book of Mormon. Later versions were edited to reflect a non-English reference to coinage.

There are numerous tight translation issues that need to be resolved all through out the Book of Mormon if indeed a word by word translation appeared in the seer stone and Jospeh was simply reading the words off the stone.

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

Emma infers a tight tranlation to the point that the seer stone would tell Joseph if Emma spelled a word incorrectly and he would stop dictation and tell her to correct the error and even spell out the word correctly. This seems a little suspect since the seer stone was unable to tell Joseph where the 116 lost pages of manuscript had gone, and that same seer stone which was used in at least 18 treasure hunting excursions was never able to locate any lost objects. Here's the quote from Emma (and she wasn't alone in claiming a tight translation method):

"When my husband was translating the Book of Mormon, I wrote a part of it, as he dictated each sentence, word for word, and when he came to proper names he could not pronounce, or long words, he spelled them out, and while I was writing them, if I made a mistake in spelling, he would stop me and correct my spelling, although it was impossible for him to see how I was writing them down at the time.?. When he stopped for any purpose at any time he would, when he commenced again, begin where he left off without any hesitation, and one time while he was translating he stopped suddenly, pale as a sheet, and said, "Emma, did Jerusalem have walls around it?" When I answered, "Yes," 'he replied, "Oh! I was afraid I had been deceived." He had such a limited knowledge of history at the time that he did not even know that Jerusalem was surrounded by walls."

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

It wasn't until 1838 (almost a decade after the publication of the Book of Mormon) that the use of the term urim and thumim was suggested as a better option for the peep stone from Joseph's treasure digging adventures in order to avoid any connection to folk magic. During that period all the references to peep/seer stone were changed to the word Urim and Thumim, however, the word changes do not alter that fact that Joseph used his treasure digging peep stone to translate word for word the Book of Mormon.

[kirtland r.m.]

In response to Arm Chair Quarterback's honest questions, I can come up with some witness quotes, but hesitate to venture far down this debate road as I would just be spouting theory which may or may not be true, I just don't know and don't claim to know. However, because the evidences are many, and growing, and the vast amount of them mostly have became known well after the translation of the Book of Mormon Plates I find them amazing, I will continue to post them, and there are many more I haven't yet posted on the forum, or this thread, and you will see them continue in coming months.
They will continue to show that Joseph Smith or his contemporaries could not possibly have known what they would have needed to know, to falsify a fabricated set of scriptures. Even modern day computer analysis shows the various Books inside of the Book of Mormon were written by multiple writers just as we would expect.
Again I say, it is the promise in Moroni 10 which is the greatest witness. However, because it is a true record of real events and revelation, the physical evidences will continue, and are to me at the very least astonishing, and make mince meat of the detractors of the church. They either will not put in the real effort to examine these evidences, of they haven't seen many of them yet and so are clueless in many respects (no disrespect meant for those who as of yet just don't know) or in the third case, are often telling half truths and out and out lying (in wait to deceive pun intended). Enjoy them, and take comfort in them. And instead of fretting over detractors, do what I do and have a good chuckle or two 'cause you are now better informed and can see that these emperors have no clothes yet they will continue to say otherwise with zeal and gusto!