The Power of Omnipotence

[darknesstolight]

I was recently listening to Alan Watts and he shared an idea that the power of omnipotence is not the ability to do ANYTHING but the ability to do ALL things.

What's the difference, in your view, between these two understandings of omnipotence?

Which definition do you think the LDS Church accepts or believes or is there another way of understanding omnipotence?

Which idea makes more sense to you and why?

...

[onefour1]

My understanding is that there are things that are impossible for even God. For example, God cannot create an intelligence.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

There are also logical contradictions to what God can do or be such as:

1. Can God be all good and all evil simultaneously?
2. Can God exist and not exist simultaneously?
3. Can God be everywhere and no where simultaneously?

The definition of "All Powerful" or "Omniscient" does not mean that God can do absolutely anything imaginable. To me, it means that God can do all things that are possible. We may not fully understand all that is possible, but God does and he has the power to do all things that are possible to do. In this way He is all powerful in that he can do all things that are possible to do. Some things are eternal impossibilities and are impossible even for God or anyone. I don't believe it is possible to create from nothing. I believe that is an eternal impossibility even for God. God is an organizer of things not a creator from nothing.

[JLHPROF]

The "omnis" are all nonsense.

[darknesstolight]

My understanding is that there are things that are impossible for even God. For example, God cannot create an intelligence.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

There are also logical contradictions to what God can do or be such as:

1. Can God be all good and all evil simultaneously?
2. Can God exist and not exist simultaneously?
3. Can God be everywhere and no where simultaneously?

The definition of "All Powerful" or "Omniscient" does not mean that God can do absolutely anything imaginable. To me, it means that God can do all things that are possible. We may not fully understand all that is possible, but God does and he has the power to do all things that are possible to do. In this way He is all powerful in that he can do all things that are possible to do. Some things are eternal impossibilities and are impossible even for God or anyone. I don't believe it is possible to create from nothing. I believe that is an eternal impossibility even for God. God is an organizer of things not a creator from nothing.

One way to look at it is God does ALL things in the present.

...

[onefour1]

My understanding is that there are things that are impossible for even God. For example, God cannot create an intelligence.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

There are also logical contradictions to what God can do or be such as:

1. Can God be all good and all evil simultaneously?
2. Can God exist and not exist simultaneously?
3. Can God be everywhere and no where simultaneously?

The definition of "All Powerful" or "Omniscient" does not mean that God can do absolutely anything imaginable. To me, it means that God can do all things that are possible. We may not fully understand all that is possible, but God does and he has the power to do all things that are possible to do. In this way He is all powerful in that he can do all things that are possible to do. Some things are eternal impossibilities and are impossible even for God or anyone. I don't believe it is possible to create from nothing. I believe that is an eternal impossibility even for God. God is an organizer of things not a creator from nothing.

One way to look at it is God does ALL things in the present.

...

Can you elaborate? Not sure what you might be getting at. Everything that mankind does, they do in the present. So, I'm not sure if you are saying more than this.

[darknesstolight]

My understanding is that there are things that are impossible for even God. For example, God cannot create an intelligence.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

There are also logical contradictions to what God can do or be such as:

1. Can God be all good and all evil simultaneously?
2. Can God exist and not exist simultaneously?
3. Can God be everywhere and no where simultaneously?

The definition of "All Powerful" or "Omniscient" does not mean that God can do absolutely anything imaginable. To me, it means that God can do all things that are possible. We may not fully understand all that is possible, but God does and he has the power to do all things that are possible to do. In this way He is all powerful in that he can do all things that are possible to do. Some things are eternal impossibilities and are impossible even for God or anyone. I don't believe it is possible to create from nothing. I believe that is an eternal impossibility even for God. God is an organizer of things not a creator from nothing.

One way to look at it is God does ALL things in the present.

...

Can you elaborate? Not sure what you might be getting at. Everything that mankind does, they do in the present. So, I'm not sure if you are saying more than this.

Well I think that's related. God is All in All. God is Perfect, Complete, Whole.

All things that appear as separate are really a part of the same One Thing. In essence we are sensors by which God looks out or experiences the Universe.

One way to look at it is to use Paul's metaphor of the Body of Christ. It goes deeper than just it being your traditional physical Church and it extends to the Cosmos.

When you look at your own body it is really just a bunch of little intelligences working together as one with a master intelligence, your brain or mind, unifying all the other intelligences in to one body. But it's not like you consciously control your organs and your organs have their own intelligence and they are of course under the ultimate care of your mind conscious and subconscious and sub-sub-conscious, etc. Little organism gut bacteria and everything in your body is an intelligence within an intelligence within an intelligence.

But you are right. We are all doing what we do in the present and that is the only place we really exist yet we have this illusion of time whereas the Father does not He is always aware of His presentness and is never deceived nor does He get pulled by the notion that time flows.

...

[Shawn Henry]

I don't think either view should be attributed to God. Yes, he is the Lord Omnipotent, that is one of his titles, but never at any time has he expounded upon its meaning. Therefore, we are without revelation on the matter, and it might simply be the language he was using because it is our language.

[onefour1]

My understanding is that there are things that are impossible for even God. For example, God cannot create an intelligence.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

There are also logical contradictions to what God can do or be such as:

1. Can God be all good and all evil simultaneously?
2. Can God exist and not exist simultaneously?
3. Can God be everywhere and no where simultaneously?

The definition of "All Powerful" or "Omniscient" does not mean that God can do absolutely anything imaginable. To me, it means that God can do all things that are possible. We may not fully understand all that is possible, but God does and he has the power to do all things that are possible to do. In this way He is all powerful in that he can do all things that are possible to do. Some things are eternal impossibilities and are impossible even for God or anyone. I don't believe it is possible to create from nothing. I believe that is an eternal impossibility even for God. God is an organizer of things not a creator from nothing.

One way to look at it is God does ALL things in the present.

...

Can you elaborate? Not sure what you might be getting at. Everything that mankind does, they do in the present. So, I'm not sure if you are saying more than this.

Well I think that's related. God is All in All. God is Perfect, Complete, Whole.

All things that appear as separate are really a part of the same One Thing. In essence we are sensors by which God looks out or experiences the Universe.

One way to look at it is to use Paul's metaphor of the Body of Christ. It goes deeper than just it being your traditional physical Church and it extends to the Cosmos.

When you look at your own body it is really just a bunch of little intelligences working together as one with a master intelligence, your brain or mind, unifying all the other intelligences in to one body. But it's not like you consciously control your organs and your organs have their own intelligence and they are of course under the ultimate care of your mind conscious and subconscious and sub-sub-conscious, etc. Little organism gut bacteria and everything in your body is an intelligence within an intelligence within an intelligence.

But you are right. We are all doing what we do in the present and that is the only place we really exist yet we have this illusion of time whereas the Father does not He is always aware of His presentness and is never deceived nor does He get pulled by the notion that time flows.

I think what you are talking about is very fascinating. I think we are now going into omnipresence as well. Your analogy with the human body is quite interesting. It is amazing that our brain can think of something and our legs and feet and other parts of our body respond. I think you are right that there are from higher to lower intelligences in our body and in all of God's creations. I find the following verse of scripture interesting:

Doctrine and Covenants 29:36
36 And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;

In this verse God defines his power. He says that his "honor" is his power. I think also that there is intelligence in all things and that these intelligences honor God because he is good and righteous. In the Book of Mormon God tells us that if he were unjust in any way, that he would cease to be God (see Alma 42). So I believe it is his righteousness and the honor that all things give to him because they honor him as a God of righteousness that gives him his power. I think much has been said about the light that emanates from God and fills the immensity of space (see D&C 88). I think in this way God is omnipresent and is able to communicate with all the intelligences of the universe and they mostly obey his commands. I think all the miracles that Moses and Jesus did were done through obedience of the intelligences of the universe. I find it interesting when Jesus cursed the fig tree for not bringing forth fruit. Perhaps that fig tree was not obedient to God (see Matthew 21). Anyway I find this topic one of the more fascinating topics of scripture. Thanks for bringing it up!

[onefour1]

Much of what I have mentioned I learned from the talk, "The Atonement" by Cleon Skousen. Here is a link to that talk:

The Atonement

[darknesstolight]

I don't think either view should be attributed to God. Yes, he is the Lord Omnipotent, that is one of his titles, but never at any time has he expounded upon its meaning. Therefore, we are without revelation on the matter, and it might simply be the language he was using because it is our language.

I would not consider myself as without revelation and God has expounded on it to some degree as far as I am concerned. I just shared some revelation on it with you. It's a matter of whether you accept it or not.

...

[onefour1]

Another limitation, I believe, that a fully resurrected God with an immortal body of flesh and bones cannot do is become a Savior on a fallen world. I believe that God the Father had to use someone who had not yet come to a mortal world who could be born and have the capacity to die and be resurrected to be the Savior. God the Father already had a resurrected immortal body and could not fill the position by laying down his life with an immortal body. For this, and possibly other reasons, God raised up his Firstborn Son Jesus to be the Savior of the world.

[Shawn Henry]

I just shared some revelation on it with you.

And for this I am grateful, thank you brother!

[Shawn Henry]

who had not yet come to a mortal world

I see no reason why previous mortal experience would be disqualifying. Matter of fact, how do you succor people with no experience of what they are going through? How did the Savior, for example, attain the ability to succor someone who has been blind their entire life?

I see no reason why resurrection would strip one of agency and permanently lock one into a physical body. It would be similar to talking one semester of math and as soon as the semester is over, you're told you can never go back in the classroom and learn more.

Mortality is the classroom and the only way to mastery is taking all the classes.

Anyway, just trying to work out the plan of salvation using a little reverse engineering.

[onefour1]

who had not yet come to a mortal world

I see no reason why previous mortal experience would be disqualifying. Matter of fact, how do you succor people with no experience of what they are going through? How did the Savior, for example, attain the ability to succor someone who has been blind their entire life?

I see no reason why resurrection would strip one of agency and permanently lock one into a physical body. It would be similar to talking one semester of math and as soon as the semester is over, you're told you can never go back in the classroom and learn more.

Mortality is the classroom and the only way to mastery is taking all the classes.

Anyway, just trying to work out the plan of salvation using a little reverse engineering.

It is not simply the fact that they had a previous mortal experience that is disqualifying but that once they are resurrected and receive an immortal body that can never die again, they cannot perform the sacrifice of laying down their life to take it up again.

I would imagine that Jesus, while on earth, relied heavily upon his Father for knowledge and as an example of someone who had been through a mortal experience to know how to succor others. But once he had gone through the atoning sacrifice I would imagine that he could truly empathize with all mankind's plights.

I believe that we are only required to die once and then we are resurrected with an immortal body never to die again as Jesus was.

Hebrews 9:27
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Revelation 1:18
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Doctrine and Covenants 138:17
17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:33-34
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;
34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.

I don't believe that mortal life is the only way to learn anything. Yes, we do learn good from evil while here but there are other things to learn that I believe can be learned outside of a mortal experience. Being inseparably connected to our immortal bodies brings a fulness of joy. Without that inseparableness we cannot receive a fulness of joy.

Doctrine and Covenants 138:50
50 For the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage.

I believe the idea of multiple mortal probations is a false doctrine and I do not believe it.

Alma 11:45
45 Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption.

[Shawn Henry]

never again to be divided

I believe the idea of multiple mortal probations is a false doctrine and I do not believe it.

There are two possible ways to interpret "never to be divided again", one being of choice and one being of force, and we are all free to choose either plan.

Never to be divide again, standing alone without further meaning, would mean you are forced into your current state and agency is no more, as if one can never experience again being a spirit or experiencing anything else.

Never to be forcibly divided again means you do not have to do it again. You have earned the glory and intelligence you have earned, and it can never be taken from you. You don't ever have to experience pain again, if you choose not to. "Never to be divided again" with agency still in play, means we don't have to go any further, but we can if we choose to. All logic, common sense, and even the gospel point to the fact that the only way to learn the lessons of mortality are in mortality. You can't continue the forging process of getting the impurities out once the sword is permanently place above the fireplace on the mantel.

I think the thought that the Savior only experienced one mortality diminishes his sacrifice for us. The thought that he could succor and relate to all of humanity by experiencing just a few hours in the garden is not well thought out. How do you attain the ability to succor all in just one day? The only way is that it was something given, not earned.

Imagine all those you got little to no experience with all the things we are learning right now with everything that is going on, for example, someone who died at age 10. Are we to tell everyone who wants to learn and experience what the latter-days are like that are they are simply out of luck? How about a nice cushy Millenium instead? Are they truly to go all of eternity never being able to relate to us?

If God is fair and no respecter of persons, then all have to, at one point, be given the same wonderful blessings we have been given. The typical one-shot approach to the plan of salvation shortchanges most of humanity and few seem to care enough to provide an answer as to how they are not shortchanged, other than the typical meaningless answer that all will work out in the end.

I'm not saying you should believe MMP, but I am saying it is one way to fill the hole in the logic of your current position.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not challenging you to answer. These are simply things I enjoy talking about.

[Durzan]

The "omnis" are all nonsense.

This. Its greek philosophy at its core, and is erroneous at best when applied to religion.

[onefour1]

never again to be divided

I believe the idea of multiple mortal probations is a false doctrine and I do not believe it.

There are two possible ways to interpret "never to be divided again", one being of choice and one being of force, and we are all free to choose either plan.

Never to be divide again, standing alone without further meaning, would mean you are forced into your current state and agency is no more, as if one can never experience again being a spirit or experiencing anything else.

Never to be forcibly divided again means you do not have to do it again. You have earned the glory and intelligence you have earned, and it can never be taken from you. You don't ever have to experience pain again, if you choose not to. "Never to be divided again" with agency still in play, means we don't have to go any further, but we can if we choose to. All logic, common sense, and even the gospel point to the fact that the only way to learn the lessons of mortality are in mortality. You can't continue the forging process of getting the impurities out once the sword is permanently place above the fireplace on the mantel.

I think the thought that the Savior only experienced one mortality diminishes his sacrifice for us. The thought that he could succor and relate to all of humanity by experiencing just a few hours in the garden is not well thought out. How do you attain the ability to succor all in just one day? The only way is that it was something given, not earned.

Imagine all those you got little to no experience with all the things we are learning right now with everything that is going on, for example, someone who died at age 10. Are we to tell everyone who wants to learn and experience what the latter-days are like that are they are simply out of luck? How about a nice cushy Millenium instead? Are they truly to go all of eternity never being able to relate to us?

If God is fair and no respecter of persons, then all have to, at one point, be given the same wonderful blessings we have been given. The typical one-shot approach to the plan of salvation shortchanges most of humanity and few seem to care enough to provide an answer as to how they are not shortchanged, other than the typical meaningless answer that all will work out in the end.

I'm not saying you should believe MMP, but I am saying it is one way to fill the hole in the logic of your current position.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not challenging you to answer. These are simply things I enjoy talking about.

I think you do bring up an interesting question of those who die at child birth or as very young children. Those who never reach the years of accountability or those who spend very little time on the earth. They do receive a body and will resurrect but did they get the chance to experience good and evil to the degree that is sufficient? Perhaps in all eternity there is enough experience that can be gained by there being simply opposition in all things without being tempted in all things, I don't know. We all do not experience all evils while on earth. I personally have never experienced what it is like to be a murderer or a homosexual or an adulterer, etc. I don't believe that you have to actually experience every sin in life so maybe there are those who need to experience very little in life to gain the understanding they need, I don't know. But yes, these things are fun to talk about and consider. Someday maybe we will understand the whole plan of God and his purposes more thoroughly than we do now.