Why was Wilford Woodruff the last church President to write down the literal words of Jesus Christ?

[Luke]

I'm of the opinion that "Thus Saith the Lord" revelations after Joseph Smith were just imitative attempts to be Joseph Smith, and by Lorenzo Snow, they gave up that pretense.

I think there is a great deal of truth in this.
It isn't that God was unable to speak to and through these men, but rather that he had nothing much to say.

Any of the "Thus Saith the Lord" prophecies from John Taylor or WW were false and didn't come true and mostly had to do with polygamy never going away.

They were right. Polygamy was never done away with. It might have been abandoned by the LDS Church, but the elect of God’s Kingdom are still living that law today!

[Bronco73idi]

You can say the same about Jospeh Smith and Zion.

Can you be more specific? What are you referring to?

D&C 101:43-62 some people think that Jospeh will be resurrected to fulfill the Nobel man, I say nay.

There is a good discussion on it down in OD by Art. It talks about the failure a little.


viewtopic.php?t=67620

[Shawn Henry]

You can say the same about Jospeh Smith and Zion.

Can you be more specific? What are you referring to?

D&C 101:43-62 some people think that Jospeh will be resurrected to fulfill the Nobel man, I say nay.

There is a good discussion on it down in OD by Art. It talks about the failure a little.


viewtopic.php?t=67620

Hopefully we all can see that it is not a failure yet. It is only a failure after it happens, and it is not Joseph redeeming Zion. Until then, it is simply an unfulfilled prophecy, not a failed prophecy.

[Bronco73idi]

You can say the same about Jospeh Smith and Zion.

Can you be more specific? What are you referring to?

D&C 101:43-62 some people think that Jospeh will be resurrected to fulfill the Nobel man, I say nay.

There is a good discussion on it down in OD by Art. It talks about the failure a little.


viewtopic.php?t=67620

Hopefully we all can see that it is not a failure yet. It is only a failure after it happens, and it is not Joseph redeeming Zion. Until then, it is simply an unfulfilled prophecy, not a failed prophecy.

Back to reading….. D&C 105:14-19. The lord will redeem Zion in his due time, not Jospeh. Jospeh isn’t the noble man of the vineyard anymore, he could have been.

[pjbrownie]

I'm of the opinion that "Thus Saith the Lord" revelations after Joseph Smith were just imitative attempts to be Joseph Smith, and by Lorenzo Snow, they gave up that pretense.

I think there is a great deal of truth in this.
It isn't that God was unable to speak to and through these men, but rather that he had nothing much to say.

Any of the "Thus Saith the Lord" prophecies from John Taylor or WW were false and didn't come true and mostly had to do with polygamy never going away.

You can say the same about Jospeh Smith and Zion.

Joseph prophesied Zion would come "in this generation." If you interpret generation as dispensation, it works as an unfulfilled prophecy.

To state that polygamy would never be taken away from the church is just plain false. It was . . . unless you believe that it was righteously sent into exile with the fundamentalists. If you believe that, you have another problem to solve. Which sect of polygamy is the true sect? Lots of work to do on that front.

[Bronco73idi]

I think there is a great deal of truth in this.
It isn't that God was unable to speak to and through these men, but rather that he had nothing much to say.

Any of the "Thus Saith the Lord" prophecies from John Taylor or WW were false and didn't come true and mostly had to do with polygamy never going away.

You can say the same about Jospeh Smith and Zion.

Joseph prophesied Zion would come "in this generation." If you interpret generation as dispensation, it works as an unfulfilled prophecy.

To state that polygamy would never be taken away from the church is just plain false. It was . . . unless you believe that it was righteously sent into exile with the fundamentalists. If you believe that, you have another problem to solve. Which sect of polygamy is the true sect? Lots of work to do on that front.

Excellent response, you gave a wide view of possible outcomes.

I personally think the lord had three servants and the last servant buried his Talent. So WW 1889 manifesto was??? I don’t think it matters because it was buried with JT. That is my opinion.

Just like Jospeh Smith failed at leadership to become the Nobelman of Zion. The lord will have it redeemed by his servant that rises after the wings like an Eagle are plucked out of the Lion.

[pjbrownie]

Any of the "Thus Saith the Lord" prophecies from John Taylor or WW were false and didn't come true and mostly had to do with polygamy never going away.

You can say the same about Jospeh Smith and Zion.

Joseph prophesied Zion would come "in this generation." If you interpret generation as dispensation, it works as an unfulfilled prophecy.

To state that polygamy would never be taken away from the church is just plain false. It was . . . unless you believe that it was righteously sent into exile with the fundamentalists. If you believe that, you have another problem to solve. Which sect of polygamy is the true sect? Lots of work to do on that front.

Excellent response, you gave a wide view of possible outcomes.

I personally think the lord had three servants and the last servant buried his Talent. So WW 1889 manifesto was??? I don’t think it matters because it was buried with JT. That is my opinion.

Just like Jospeh Smith failed at leadership to become the Nobelman of Zion. The lord will have it redeemed by his servant that rises after the wings like an Eagle are plucked out of the Lion.

Well I'm one that believes that the bullet that sits in John Taylor's leg matches the six shooter in Joseph's gun. So any "thus saith the Lord" events from that mouth should come with a heavy asterisk.

[Shawn Henry]

The lord will redeem Zion in his due time, not Jospeh. Jospeh isn’t the noble man of the vineyard anymore, he could have been.

You have to pick between two choices. Either Joseph is returning, or the parable is false.

[Bronco73idi]

The lord will redeem Zion in his due time, not Jospeh. Jospeh isn’t the noble man of the vineyard anymore, he could have been.

You have to pick between two choices. Either Joseph is returning, or the parable is false.

? The parable of the nobleman has failed. That has nothing to do with the lord’s servant that Daniel talks about in 7:4.

The puritans came here on the Mayflower because they thought the lord told them to create New Jerusalem.

[Shawn Henry]

Joseph prophesied Zion would come "in this generation.

The invitation and opportunity definitely came, and Sidney and Joseph did bless the cornerstone. I imagine most would agree with me when I say that Joseph shouldn't really have to clarify that promises are conditional.

[Bronco73idi]

You can say the same about Jospeh Smith and Zion.

Joseph prophesied Zion would come "in this generation." If you interpret generation as dispensation, it works as an unfulfilled prophecy.

To state that polygamy would never be taken away from the church is just plain false. It was . . . unless you believe that it was righteously sent into exile with the fundamentalists. If you believe that, you have another problem to solve. Which sect of polygamy is the true sect? Lots of work to do on that front.

Excellent response, you gave a wide view of possible outcomes.

I personally think the lord had three servants and the last servant buried his Talent. So WW 1889 manifesto was??? I don’t think it matters because it was buried with JT. That is my opinion.

Just like Jospeh Smith failed at leadership to become the Nobelman of Zion. The lord will have it redeemed by his servant that rises after the wings like an Eagle are plucked out of the Lion.

Well I'm one that believes that the bullet that sits in John Taylor's leg matches the six shooter in Joseph's gun. So any "thus saith the Lord" events from that mouth should come with a heavy asterisk.

Why did the saints have miracles traveling to Utah?

Why did the church prosper when Jospeh seed didn’t?

These are questions that I had to ask myself when considering your ideas that you are implying

[Shawn Henry]

? The parable of the nobleman has failed. That has nothing to do with the lord’s servant that Daniel talks about in 7:4.

The puritans came here on the Mayflower because they thought the lord told them to create New Jerusalem.

I'm talking about the parable of the redemption of Zion in D&C 101:43-62.

Either Joseph returns "after many days" or the Lord was wrong in section 103 in telling us that Joseph is that servant in the parable.

"Verily, verily I say unto you, that my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., is the man to whom I likened the servant to whom the Lord of the vineyard spake in the parable which I have given unto you."

Section 103 also informs us that the redemption of Zion will be led by a man who will be raised up like Moses. This also lets us know it is Joseph, because he is compared to Moses elsewhere in scripture.

[Shawn Henry]

Why did the saints have miracles traveling to Utah?

Why did the church prosper when Jospeh seed didn’t?

These are questions that I had to ask myself when considering your ideas that you are implying

You know that's not evidence of anything, right? All churches have varying gifts of the spirit and even the wicked at times prosper. God causes the sun to shine on both the good and the evil.

[Bronco73idi]

Why did the saints have miracles traveling to Utah?

Why did the church prosper when Jospeh seed didn’t?

These are questions that I had to ask myself when considering your ideas that you are implying

You know that's not evidence of anything, right? All churches have varying gifts of the spirit and even the wicked at times prosper. God causes the sun to shine on both the good and the evil.

John Tanner blessing from Jospeh?

[Bronco73idi]

? The parable of the nobleman has failed. That has nothing to do with the lord’s servant that Daniel talks about in 7:4.

The puritans came here on the Mayflower because they thought the lord told them to create New Jerusalem.

I'm talking about the parable of the redemption of Zion in D&C 101:43-62.

Either Joseph returns "after many days" or the Lord was wrong in section 103 in telling us that Joseph is that servant in the parable.

"Verily, verily I say unto you, that my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., is the man to whom I likened the servant to whom the Lord of the vineyard spake in the parable which I have given unto you."

Section 103 also informs us that the redemption of Zion will be led by a man who will be raised up like Moses. This also lets us know it is Joseph, because he is compared to Moses elsewhere in scripture.

I said read 105

16 Behold, I have commanded my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., to say unto the strength of my house, even my warriors, my young men, and middle-aged, to gather together for the redemption of my people, and throw down the towers of mine enemies, and scatter their watchmen;

Did they?

Then read 111:6-11

6 Concern not yourselves about Zion, for I will deal mercifully with her.

He is gone and now Zion will be built after the heavens be shaken. End of the 6th seal when 7 type of men will feel it. D&C 49:

23 Wherefore, be not deceived, but continue in steadfastness, looking forth for the heavens to be shaken, and the earth to tremble and to reel to and fro as a drunken man, and for the valleys to be exalted, and for the mountains to be made low, and for the rough places to become smooth—and all this when the angel shall sound his trumpet.

[Shawn Henry]

? The parable of the nobleman has failed. That has nothing to do with the lord’s servant that Daniel talks about in 7:4.

The puritans came here on the Mayflower because they thought the lord told them to create New Jerusalem.

I'm talking about the parable of the redemption of Zion in D&C 101:43-62.

Either Joseph returns "after many days" or the Lord was wrong in section 103 in telling us that Joseph is that servant in the parable.

"Verily, verily I say unto you, that my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., is the man to whom I likened the servant to whom the Lord of the vineyard spake in the parable which I have given unto you."

Section 103 also informs us that the redemption of Zion will be led by a man who will be raised up like Moses. This also lets us know it is Joseph, because he is compared to Moses elsewhere in scripture.

I said read 105

16 Behold, I have commanded my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., to say unto the strength of my house, even my warriors, my young men, and middle-aged, to gather together for the redemption of my people, and throw down the towers of mine enemies, and scatter their watchmen;

Did they?

Then read 111:6-11

6 Concern not yourselves about Zion, for I will deal mercifully with her.

He is gone and now Zion will be built after the heavens be shaken. End of the 6th seal when 7 type of men will feel it. D&C 49:

23 Wherefore, be not deceived, but continue in steadfastness, looking forth for the heavens to be shaken, and the earth to tremble and to reel to and fro as a drunken man, and for the valleys to be exalted, and for the mountains to be made low, and for the rough places to become smooth—and all this when the angel shall sound his trumpet.

Yeah, I get it, but you're still saying the parable is false, that the Savior told it wrong. Read it again. Does it say that servant will go and have the mission called off. No, it doesn't. So, Joseph will fulfill it all or the Savior said it wrong.

[Bronco73idi]

? The parable of the nobleman has failed. That has nothing to do with the lord’s servant that Daniel talks about in 7:4.

The puritans came here on the Mayflower because they thought the lord told them to create New Jerusalem.

I'm talking about the parable of the redemption of Zion in D&C 101:43-62.

Either Joseph returns "after many days" or the Lord was wrong in section 103 in telling us that Joseph is that servant in the parable.

"Verily, verily I say unto you, that my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., is the man to whom I likened the servant to whom the Lord of the vineyard spake in the parable which I have given unto you."

Section 103 also informs us that the redemption of Zion will be led by a man who will be raised up like Moses. This also lets us know it is Joseph, because he is compared to Moses elsewhere in scripture.

I said read 105

16 Behold, I have commanded my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., to say unto the strength of my house, even my warriors, my young men, and middle-aged, to gather together for the redemption of my people, and throw down the towers of mine enemies, and scatter their watchmen;

Did they?

Then read 111:6-11

6 Concern not yourselves about Zion, for I will deal mercifully with her.

He is gone and now Zion will be built after the heavens be shaken. End of the 6th seal when 7 type of men will feel it. D&C 49:

23 Wherefore, be not deceived, but continue in steadfastness, looking forth for the heavens to be shaken, and the earth to tremble and to reel to and fro as a drunken man, and for the valleys to be exalted, and for the mountains to be made low, and for the rough places to become smooth—and all this when the angel shall sound his trumpet.

Yeah, I get it, but you're still saying the parable is false, that the Savior told it wrong. Read it again. Does it say that servant will go and have the mission called off. No, it doesn't. So, Joseph will fulfill it all or the Savior said it wrong.

You said things are conditional, so why doesn’t that word/idea pertain to this parable? Where in this parable does it say “this will happen, thus saith….”.

How many rich and noble ones pulled their money out of Zion?

Jospeh and the saints failed, 115 says gather your army and they didn’t. They did lay the groundwork, Zion will be built without an army to clear the land.

Will you reject the lord’s servant if it isn’t Jospeh Smith doing it?

[Shawn Henry]

You said things are conditional, so why doesn’t that word/idea pertain to this parable? Where in this parable does it say “this will happen, thus saith….”.

How many rich and noble ones pulled their money out of Zion?

Jospeh and the saints failed, 115 says gather your army and they didn’t. They did lay the groundwork, Zion will be built without an army to clear the land.

Will you reject the lord’s servant if it isn’t Jospeh Smith doing it?

Parables can't be conditional, that just wouldn't work. Most of these parables are prophecies, like the 10 virgins for example. Imagine that parable never happening because the 5 wise joined with the unwise in not preparing. It would mean that the Savior isn't very good at prophesying.

[BeNotDeceived]

Joseph prophesied Zion would come "in this generation." If you interpret generation as dispensation, it works as an unfulfilled prophecy.

To state that polygamy would never be taken away from the church is just plain false. It was . . . unless you believe that it was righteously sent into exile with the fundamentalists. If you believe that, you have another problem to solve. Which sect of polygamy is the true sect? Lots of work to do on that front.

Excellent response, you gave a wide view of possible outcomes.

I personally think the lord had three servants and the last servant buried his Talent. So WW 1889 manifesto was??? I don’t think it matters because it was buried with JT. That is my opinion.

Just like Jospeh Smith failed at leadership to become the Nobelman of Zion. The lord will have it redeemed by his servant that rises after the wings like an Eagle are plucked out of the Lion.

Well I'm one that believes that the bullet that sits in John Taylor's leg matches the six shooter in Joseph's gun. So any "thus saith the Lord" events from that mouth should come with a heavy asterisk.

Why did the saints have miracles traveling to Utah?

Why did the church prosper when Jospeh seed didn’t?

These are questions that I had to ask myself when considering your ideas that you are implying

Ministering of Angels is one of the 3Keys of the Aaronic Priesthood. No other priesthood needs be in effect as per recent discussion of march8miracle.org

[InfoWarrior82]

Joseph prophesied Zion would come "in this generation." If you interpret generation as dispensation, it works as an unfulfilled prophecy.

To state that polygamy would never be taken away from the church is just plain false. It was . . . unless you believe that it was righteously sent into exile with the fundamentalists. If you believe that, you have another problem to solve. Which sect of polygamy is the true sect? Lots of work to do on that front.

Excellent response, you gave a wide view of possible outcomes.

I personally think the lord had three servants and the last servant buried his Talent. So WW 1889 manifesto was??? I don’t think it matters because it was buried with JT. That is my opinion.

Just like Jospeh Smith failed at leadership to become the Nobelman of Zion. The lord will have it redeemed by his servant that rises after the wings like an Eagle are plucked out of the Lion.

Well I'm one that believes that the bullet that sits in John Taylor's leg matches the six shooter in Joseph's gun. So any "thus saith the Lord" events from that mouth should come with a heavy asterisk.

Why did the saints have miracles traveling to Utah?

Why did the church prosper when Jospeh seed didn’t?

These are questions that I had to ask myself when considering your ideas that you are implying

The LDS church are not the only group to receive miracles and tender mercies for those humble followers of Christ... regardless of their religion.

[Bronco73idi]

You said things are conditional, so why doesn’t that word/idea pertain to this parable? Where in this parable does it say “this will happen, thus saith….”.

How many rich and noble ones pulled their money out of Zion?

Jospeh and the saints failed, 115 says gather your army and they didn’t. They did lay the groundwork, Zion will be built without an army to clear the land.

Will you reject the lord’s servant if it isn’t Jospeh Smith doing it?

Parables can't be conditional, that just wouldn't work. Most of these parables are prophecies, like the 10 virgins for example. Imagine that parable never happening because the 5 wise joined with the unwise in not preparing. It would mean that the Savior isn't very good at prophesying.

I pondered your concern, you are right that there needs to be a small remnant (Isaiah 1:9) that lasts through these trouble times for the bridegroom. The Lord’s parables about himself can not fail. Hopefully you and I are part of that small remnant who pushes through hell on earth.

The nobleman wasn’t the lord, it was an imperfect and stubborn man. I say stubborn because of his insistence on the second coming. The lord answered him “let this suffice” D&C 130:15.

[Bronco73idi]

Excellent response, you gave a wide view of possible outcomes.

I personally think the lord had three servants and the last servant buried his Talent. So WW 1889 manifesto was??? I don’t think it matters because it was buried with JT. That is my opinion.

Just like Jospeh Smith failed at leadership to become the Nobelman of Zion. The lord will have it redeemed by his servant that rises after the wings like an Eagle are plucked out of the Lion.

Well I'm one that believes that the bullet that sits in John Taylor's leg matches the six shooter in Joseph's gun. So any "thus saith the Lord" events from that mouth should come with a heavy asterisk.

Why did the saints have miracles traveling to Utah?

Why did the church prosper when Jospeh seed didn’t?

These are questions that I had to ask myself when considering your ideas that you are implying

The LDS church are not the only group to receive miracles and tender mercies for those humble followers of Christ... regardless of their religion.

I totally agree, my point is did the other splinters of JS gathering have similar harvests?

[Bronco73idi]

Excellent response, you gave a wide view of possible outcomes.

I personally think the lord had three servants and the last servant buried his Talent. So WW 1889 manifesto was??? I don’t think it matters because it was buried with JT. That is my opinion.

Just like Jospeh Smith failed at leadership to become the Nobelman of Zion. The lord will have it redeemed by his servant that rises after the wings like an Eagle are plucked out of the Lion.

Well I'm one that believes that the bullet that sits in John Taylor's leg matches the six shooter in Joseph's gun. So any "thus saith the Lord" events from that mouth should come with a heavy asterisk.

Why did the saints have miracles traveling to Utah?

Why did the church prosper when Jospeh seed didn’t?

These are questions that I had to ask myself when considering your ideas that you are implying

Ministering of Angels is one of the 3Keys of the Aaronic Priesthood. No other priesthood needs be in effect as per recent discussion of march8miracle.org

So we know the church is true enough to have the Aaronic priesthood.

John Tanner received a blessing from JS and for that blessing to come true Mr. Tanner would have to use the spirit and follow one of the many branches that divided off after Jospeh’s death. Mr Tanner chose to follow BY and all his children who listened and followed their father received that blessing.

[InfoWarrior82]

Well I'm one that believes that the bullet that sits in John Taylor's leg matches the six shooter in Joseph's gun. So any "thus saith the Lord" events from that mouth should come with a heavy asterisk.

Why did the saints have miracles traveling to Utah?

Why did the church prosper when Jospeh seed didn’t?

These are questions that I had to ask myself when considering your ideas that you are implying

The LDS church are not the only group to receive miracles and tender mercies for those humble followers of Christ... regardless of their religion.

I totally agree, my point is did the other splinters of JS gathering have similar harvests?

Good question... I don't know.

[Redpilled Mormon]

Well I'm one that believes that the bullet that sits in John Taylor's leg matches the six shooter in Joseph's gun. So any "thus saith the Lord" events from that mouth should come with a heavy asterisk.

Why did the saints have miracles traveling to Utah?

Why did the church prosper when Jospeh seed didn’t?

These are questions that I had to ask myself when considering your ideas that you are implying

The LDS church are not the only group to receive miracles and tender mercies for those humble followers of Christ... regardless of their religion.

I totally agree, my point is did the other splinters of JS gathering have similar harvests?

The answer appears to be an unambiguous "Yes, definitely"

There was a vid from Mormon Book Reviews a few months back from the followers of the Church of Jesus Christ (not lds, the name stops there), essentially their branch of the Restoration came down from the Bickertonite faction, and apparently they are the 3rd largest denomination of the Restoration groups currently. This vid was all about miracles witnessed personally by the 2 members in the vid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7022RSAuhM

It's odd, but I can't seem to remember the last time I witnessed someone raised from the dead within an lds chapel...