Why was Wilford Woodruff the last church President to write down the literal words of Jesus Christ?

[InfoWarrior82]

I put forward that all true prophets of God share at least 1 characteristic. And that characteristic is: saying "Thus saith the Lord". They all wrote down the literal words of Christ to them for their time.


I find it humorous to read some of the spin-off Mormon church leaders write down what they try to pass off as the literal words of Jesus Christ in their extended Doctrine & Covenants. *Yes, it's that bad*


In the latter days, we have the revelations of Joseph Smith in the D&C.

Brigham Young has D&C 136.

John Taylor had these: https://rsc.byu.edu/champion-liberty-jo ... ohn-taylor

And Wilford Woodruff had these:

Wilford Woodruff's 1889 revelation from the Lord

https://zomarah.wordpress.com/2010/10/0 ... evelation/
https://archive.is/tGxvr

Wilford Woodruff's 1880 revelation:

https://historyofmormonism.com/2010/03/ ... evelation/
https://archive.is/F5vKy



Something very important from Wilford Woodruff's 1880 revelation:

...
And while my servant John Taylor is your President, I wish to ask the rest of my servants of the Apostles the question, although you have one to preside over your Quorum, which is the order of God in all generations, do you not, all of you, hold the apostleship, which is the highest authority ever given to men on earth? You do. Therefore you hold in common the Keys of the Kingdom of God in all the world.

You each of you have the power to unlock the veil of eternity and hold converse with God the Father, and His Son Jesus Christ and to have the ministrations of angels

It is your right, privilege and duty to inquire of the Lord as to His mind and will concerning yourselves and the inhabitants of Zion and their interests.

And whenever any one of you receives the word of the Lord, let it be written and presented in your councils and whatever by united consent you deem wisdom to be presented unto the people, let it be presented by the President, my servant John Taylor, as the word of the Lord. In this way you will uphold him and strengthen his hands, as all the burden should not lie upon one man.

For thus saith the Lord, all mine Apostles should be full of the Holy Ghost, of inspiration and revelation to know the mind and will of God and be prepared for that which is to come. Therefore let mine Apostles keep my commandments and obey my voice and the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.

Fear not, for lo, I am with you until I come and I come quickly. Even so, Amen.

[Luke]

First one. After the monumental cock-up that was the Manifesto, God had just about had enough.

Especially considering that He told the leaders numerous times in the years prior that they weren’t supposed to give up Plural Marriage.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Did WW even receive direct revelation? Meh. I believe it may have ended with Joseph.

[Luke]

Did WW even receive direct revelation? Meh. I believe it may have ended with Joseph.

He gave us “Thus saith the Lord” at least twice.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Did WW even receive direct revelation? Meh. I believe it may have ended with Joseph.

He gave us “Thus saith the Lord” at least twice.

As any one of us could, they’re just words. I don’t get hung up on the semantics.

It brings to mind what I think “taking the Lord’s name in vain” really means… speaking on His behalf without actually receiving direction.

[InfoWarrior82]

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/hugh-b-b ... a-prophet/

1. He will boldly claim that God had spoken to him.

2. Any man so claiming would be a dignified man with a dignified message—no table jumping, no whisperings from the dead, no clairvoyance, but an intelligent statement of truth.

3. Any man claiming to be a prophet of God would declare his message without any fear and without making any weak concessions to public opinion.

4. If he were speaking for God he could not make concessions, although what he taught would be new and contrary to the accepted teachings of the day. A prophet bears witness to what he has seen and heard and seldom tries to make a case by argument. His message and not himself is important.

5. Such a man would speak in the name of the Lord, saying, “Thus said the Lord,” as did Moses, Joshua, and others.

6. Such a man would predict future events in the name of the Lord, and they would come to pass, as did those predicted by Isaiah and Ezekiel.

7. He would have not only an important message for his time but often a message for all future time, such as Daniel, Jeremiah, and others had.

8. He would have courage and faith enough to endure persecution and to give his life, if need be, for the cause he espoused, such as Peter, James, Paul, and others did.

9. Such a man would denounce wickedness fearlessly. He would generally be rejected or persecuted by the people of his time, but later generations and descendants of his persecutors would build monuments in his honor.

10. He would be able to do superhuman things—things that no man could do without God’s help. The consequence or result of his message and work would be convincing evidence of his prophetic calling: “By their fruits ye shall know them” (Matthew 7:20).

11. His teachings would be in strict conformity with scripture, and his words and his writings would become scripture. “For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost” (2 Peter 1:21).

[Shawn Henry]

He gave us “Thus saith the Lord” at least twice.

Damn, it's that easy? Well, ok, here I go....

"Thus, saith the Lord.....

Let me know when you want to hear what the Lord has spoken, and I'll tell you the rest.

[Shawn Henry]

Did BY, JT, or WW "come in at the gate"? I think it is a good time to review section 43, provided you all don't mind the Lord weighing in and saying when he speaks.

1 O hearken, ye elders of my church, and give ear to the words which I shall speak unto you.

2 For behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye have received a commandment for a law unto my church, through him whom I have appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations from my hand.

3 And this ye shall know assuredly—that there is none other appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations until he be taken, if he abide in me.

4 But verily, verily, I say unto you, that none else shall be appointed unto this gift except it be through him; for if it be taken from him he shall not have power except to appoint another in his stead.

5 And this shall be a law unto you, that ye receive not the teachings of any that shall come before you as revelations or commandments;

6 And this I give unto you that you may not be deceived, that you may know they are not of me.

7 For verily I say unto you, that he that is ordained of me shall come in at the gate and be ordained as I have told you before, to teach those revelations which you have received and shall receive through him whom I have appointed.


So now we just need to pool our intellects together and get this Greek translated into English and let's get this mystery solved.

Somebody look up "none else" and figure out what that means.

Somebody look up "receive not" and let us know what that means.

Somebody look up "that you may not be deceived".

Ready!!!!! Break!!!!!!

[Subcomandante]

I put forward that all true prophets of God share at least 1 characteristic. And that characteristic is: saying "Thus saith the Lord". They all wrote down the literal words of Christ to them for their time.


I find it humorous to read some of the spin-off Mormon church leaders write down what they try to pass off as the literal words of Jesus Christ in their extended Doctrine & Covenants. *Yes, it's that bad*


In the latter days, we have the revelations of Joseph Smith in the D&C.

Brigham Young has D&C 136.

John Taylor had these: https://rsc.byu.edu/champion-liberty-jo ... ohn-taylor

And Wilford Woodruff had these:

Wilford Woodruff's 1889 revelation from the Lord

https://zomarah.wordpress.com/2010/10/0 ... evelation/
https://archive.is/tGxvr

Wilford Woodruff's 1880 revelation:

https://historyofmormonism.com/2010/03/ ... evelation/
https://archive.is/F5vKy



Something very important from Wilford Woodruff's 1880 revelation:

...
And while my servant John Taylor is your President, I wish to ask the rest of my servants of the Apostles the question, although you have one to preside over your Quorum, which is the order of God in all generations, do you not, all of you, hold the apostleship, which is the highest authority ever given to men on earth? You do. Therefore you hold in common the Keys of the Kingdom of God in all the world.

You each of you have the power to unlock the veil of eternity and hold converse with God the Father, and His Son Jesus Christ and to have the ministrations of angels

It is your right, privilege and duty to inquire of the Lord as to His mind and will concerning yourselves and the inhabitants of Zion and their interests.

And whenever any one of you receives the word of the Lord, let it be written and presented in your councils and whatever by united consent you deem wisdom to be presented unto the people, let it be presented by the President, my servant John Taylor, as the word of the Lord. In this way you will uphold him and strengthen his hands, as all the burden should not lie upon one man.

For thus saith the Lord, all mine Apostles should be full of the Holy Ghost, of inspiration and revelation to know the mind and will of God and be prepared for that which is to come. Therefore let mine Apostles keep my commandments and obey my voice and the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.

Fear not, for lo, I am with you until I come and I come quickly. Even so, Amen.

None of the above.

Prophets do not have to say "Thus saith the Lord" for something to be determined as scripture.

If that were the case you would be able to resume all of the ministry of Jesus Christ into a movie of about a couple of hours of length, out of THREE YEARS and change of ministry. Not to imagine His formative years before he began his ministry.

Isaiah's prophecies? Can be read in less than an hour, out of several years of ministry.

Thankfully now these days we have Conference Reports. They speak the words of Jesus Christ today and no "Thus saith the Lord" reports are necessary, albeit President Nelson's warning against the abusers could very easily be interpreted as such even though he did not literally say "Thus saith the Lord."

[InfoWarrior82]

I put forward that all true prophets of God share at least 1 characteristic. And that characteristic is: saying "Thus saith the Lord". They all wrote down the literal words of Christ to them for their time.


I find it humorous to read some of the spin-off Mormon church leaders write down what they try to pass off as the literal words of Jesus Christ in their extended Doctrine & Covenants. *Yes, it's that bad*


In the latter days, we have the revelations of Joseph Smith in the D&C.

Brigham Young has D&C 136.

John Taylor had these: https://rsc.byu.edu/champion-liberty-jo ... ohn-taylor

And Wilford Woodruff had these:

Wilford Woodruff's 1889 revelation from the Lord

https://zomarah.wordpress.com/2010/10/0 ... evelation/
https://archive.is/tGxvr

Wilford Woodruff's 1880 revelation:

https://historyofmormonism.com/2010/03/ ... evelation/
https://archive.is/F5vKy



Something very important from Wilford Woodruff's 1880 revelation:

...
And while my servant John Taylor is your President, I wish to ask the rest of my servants of the Apostles the question, although you have one to preside over your Quorum, which is the order of God in all generations, do you not, all of you, hold the apostleship, which is the highest authority ever given to men on earth? You do. Therefore you hold in common the Keys of the Kingdom of God in all the world.

You each of you have the power to unlock the veil of eternity and hold converse with God the Father, and His Son Jesus Christ and to have the ministrations of angels

It is your right, privilege and duty to inquire of the Lord as to His mind and will concerning yourselves and the inhabitants of Zion and their interests.

And whenever any one of you receives the word of the Lord, let it be written and presented in your councils and whatever by united consent you deem wisdom to be presented unto the people, let it be presented by the President, my servant John Taylor, as the word of the Lord. In this way you will uphold him and strengthen his hands, as all the burden should not lie upon one man.

For thus saith the Lord, all mine Apostles should be full of the Holy Ghost, of inspiration and revelation to know the mind and will of God and be prepared for that which is to come. Therefore let mine Apostles keep my commandments and obey my voice and the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.

Fear not, for lo, I am with you until I come and I come quickly. Even so, Amen.

None of the above.

Prophets do not have to say "Thus saith the Lord" for something to be determined as scripture.

If that were the case you would be able to resume all of the ministry of Jesus Christ into a movie of about a couple of hours of length, out of THREE YEARS and change of ministry. Not to imagine His formative years before he began his ministry.

Isaiah's prophecies? Can be read in less than an hour, out of several years of ministry.

Thankfully now these days we have Conference Reports. They speak the words of Jesus Christ today and no "Thus saith the Lord" reports are necessary, albeit President Nelson's warning against the abusers could very easily be interpreted as such even though he did not literally say "Thus saith the Lord."

So how can you tell if these men are speaking as prophets or speaking from their own hearts?

It's all about plausible deniability.

First: "They said the shots were a miracle from God!!! We need to follow their prophetic counsel!!!"

Then when it's revealed that these shots were from Satan: "They never said thus saith the Lord!!!!!"

You see where I'm going here, right?

[HVDC]

I put forward that all true prophets of God share at least 1 characteristic. And that characteristic is: saying "Thus saith the Lord". They all wrote down the literal words of Christ to them for their time.


I find it humorous to read some of the spin-off Mormon church leaders write down what they try to pass off as the literal words of Jesus Christ in their extended Doctrine & Covenants. *Yes, it's that bad*


In the latter days, we have the revelations of Joseph Smith in the D&C.

Brigham Young has D&C 136.

John Taylor had these: https://rsc.byu.edu/champion-liberty-jo ... ohn-taylor

And Wilford Woodruff had these:

Wilford Woodruff's 1889 revelation from the Lord

https://zomarah.wordpress.com/2010/10/0 ... evelation/
https://archive.is/tGxvr

Wilford Woodruff's 1880 revelation:

https://historyofmormonism.com/2010/03/ ... evelation/
https://archive.is/F5vKy



Something very important from Wilford Woodruff's 1880 revelation:

...
And while my servant John Taylor is your President, I wish to ask the rest of my servants of the Apostles the question, although you have one to preside over your Quorum, which is the order of God in all generations, do you not, all of you, hold the apostleship, which is the highest authority ever given to men on earth? You do. Therefore you hold in common the Keys of the Kingdom of God in all the world.

You each of you have the power to unlock the veil of eternity and hold converse with God the Father, and His Son Jesus Christ and to have the ministrations of angels

It is your right, privilege and duty to inquire of the Lord as to His mind and will concerning yourselves and the inhabitants of Zion and their interests.

And whenever any one of you receives the word of the Lord, let it be written and presented in your councils and whatever by united consent you deem wisdom to be presented unto the people, let it be presented by the President, my servant John Taylor, as the word of the Lord. In this way you will uphold him and strengthen his hands, as all the burden should not lie upon one man.

For thus saith the Lord, all mine Apostles should be full of the Holy Ghost, of inspiration and revelation to know the mind and will of God and be prepared for that which is to come. Therefore let mine Apostles keep my commandments and obey my voice and the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.

Fear not, for lo, I am with you until I come and I come quickly. Even so, Amen.

Because they know liars go to Hell.

And that the punishment for Blasphemy is real.

So they use Smoke and Mirrors instead.

Like all good Managers these days.

Sir FABBO!.

[InfoWarrior82]

I put forward that all true prophets of God share at least 1 characteristic. And that characteristic is: saying "Thus saith the Lord". They all wrote down the literal words of Christ to them for their time.


I find it humorous to read some of the spin-off Mormon church leaders write down what they try to pass off as the literal words of Jesus Christ in their extended Doctrine & Covenants. *Yes, it's that bad*


In the latter days, we have the revelations of Joseph Smith in the D&C.

Brigham Young has D&C 136.

John Taylor had these: https://rsc.byu.edu/champion-liberty-jo ... ohn-taylor

And Wilford Woodruff had these:

Wilford Woodruff's 1889 revelation from the Lord

https://zomarah.wordpress.com/2010/10/0 ... evelation/
https://archive.is/tGxvr

Wilford Woodruff's 1880 revelation:

https://historyofmormonism.com/2010/03/ ... evelation/
https://archive.is/F5vKy



Something very important from Wilford Woodruff's 1880 revelation:

...
And while my servant John Taylor is your President, I wish to ask the rest of my servants of the Apostles the question, although you have one to preside over your Quorum, which is the order of God in all generations, do you not, all of you, hold the apostleship, which is the highest authority ever given to men on earth? You do. Therefore you hold in common the Keys of the Kingdom of God in all the world.

You each of you have the power to unlock the veil of eternity and hold converse with God the Father, and His Son Jesus Christ and to have the ministrations of angels

It is your right, privilege and duty to inquire of the Lord as to His mind and will concerning yourselves and the inhabitants of Zion and their interests.

And whenever any one of you receives the word of the Lord, let it be written and presented in your councils and whatever by united consent you deem wisdom to be presented unto the people, let it be presented by the President, my servant John Taylor, as the word of the Lord. In this way you will uphold him and strengthen his hands, as all the burden should not lie upon one man.

For thus saith the Lord, all mine Apostles should be full of the Holy Ghost, of inspiration and revelation to know the mind and will of God and be prepared for that which is to come. Therefore let mine Apostles keep my commandments and obey my voice and the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.

Fear not, for lo, I am with you until I come and I come quickly. Even so, Amen.

None of the above.

Prophets do not have to say "Thus saith the Lord" for something to be determined as scripture.

If that were the case you would be able to resume all of the ministry of Jesus Christ into a movie of about a couple of hours of length, out of THREE YEARS and change of ministry. Not to imagine His formative years before he began his ministry.

Isaiah's prophecies? Can be read in less than an hour, out of several years of ministry.

Thankfully now these days we have Conference Reports. They speak the words of Jesus Christ today and no "Thus saith the Lord" reports are necessary, albeit President Nelson's warning against the abusers could very easily be interpreted as such even though he did not literally say "Thus saith the Lord."

But really, you did not even address the question... Which is... What is the reason this stopped with Wilford Woodruff?

The standard of prophets from Adam all the way down... Stops abruptly with President Woodruff.

[Robin Hood]

Did BY, JT, or WW "come in at the gate"? I think it is a good time to review section 43, provided you all don't mind the Lord weighing in and saying when he speaks.

1 O hearken, ye elders of my church, and give ear to the words which I shall speak unto you.

2 For behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye have received a commandment for a law unto my church, through him whom I have appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations from my hand.

3 And this ye shall know assuredly—that there is none other appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations until he be taken, if he abide in me.

4 But verily, verily, I say unto you, that none else shall be appointed unto this gift except it be through him; for if it be taken from him he shall not have power except to appoint another in his stead.

5 And this shall be a law unto you, that ye receive not the teachings of any that shall come before you as revelations or commandments;

6 And this I give unto you that you may not be deceived, that you may know they are not of me.

7 For verily I say unto you, that he that is ordained of me shall come in at the gate and be ordained as I have told you before, to teach those revelations which you have received and shall receive through him whom I have appointed.


So now we just need to pool our intellects together and get this Greek translated into English and let's get this mystery solved.

Somebody look up "none else" and figure out what that means.

Somebody look up "receive not" and let us know what that means.

Somebody look up "that you may not be deceived".

Ready!!!!! Break!!!!!!

Some will argue that Brigham came in at the gate through his ordination as an apostle. I think that is a reasonable position.
Brigham had the authority and indeed the responsibility to preside by virtue of his position as president of the Twelve.
However, that did not make him a prophet and he was careful never to claim it did.
With the loss of Joseph and Hyrum we became an apostolic church. This is self-evident.
The modern phenomenon of referring to the church president as "prophet" is a relatively recent development which only really caught on during the David O. McKay administration.
There was never supposed to be a successor to the prophetic mantle.

[Shawn Henry]

Some will argue that Brigham came in at the gate through his ordination as an apostle. I think that is a reasonable position.
Brigham had the authority and indeed the responsibility to preside by virtue of his position as president of the Twelve.
However, that did not make him a prophet and he was careful never to claim it did.
With the loss of Joseph and Hyrum we became an apostolic church. This is self-evident.
The modern phenomenon of referring to the church president as "prophet" is a relatively recent development which only really caught on during the David O. McKay administration.
There was never supposed to be a successor to the prophetic mantle.

I don't see how that is a 'reasonable position' (definitely a necessary position though). There was no revelation received by Joseph appointing the Q12. A revelatory endorsement from God is the coming in at the gate.

Look at the pattern of Hyrum's appointment to the church as a PSR and patriarch. Joseph actually produced a revelation (section 124) attesting to Hyrum's appointment, just like section 43 says.

Your approach would also negate the Lord's warning. He says that he is specifically giving us this procedure so that we are not deceived when other alleged revelations come in.

So, here's my question: Why warn us against being deceived in the future with revelations not from him, if that was never going to happen?

Any external revelations wouldn't merit a warning because we wouldn't believe them anyway unless they come from 'the brethren'. The warning was clearly about internal deception. Right? Wrong? Yes? No? Maybe so?

If you are making the claim that we are an apostolic church, then I would still feel obligated to default to the description of apostolic duties as the Lord describes them in the D&C, not the non-revelatory duties the Q12 gave themselves. I think this is fair.

I very much support the 12 in fulfilling their D&C role, too bad they've pawned missionary work off to young men.

[Robin Hood]

Some will argue that Brigham came in at the gate through his ordination as an apostle. I think that is a reasonable position.
Brigham had the authority and indeed the responsibility to preside by virtue of his position as president of the Twelve.
However, that did not make him a prophet and he was careful never to claim it did.
With the loss of Joseph and Hyrum we became an apostolic church. This is self-evident.
The modern phenomenon of referring to the church president as "prophet" is a relatively recent development which only really caught on during the David O. McKay administration.
There was never supposed to be a successor to the prophetic mantle.

I don't see how that is a 'reasonable position' (definitely a necessary position though). There was no revelation received by Joseph appointing the Q12. A revelatory endorsement from God is the coming in at the gate.

Look at the pattern of Hyrum's appointment to the church as a PSR and patriarch. Joseph actually produced a revelation (section 124) attesting to Hyrum's appointment, just like section 43 says.

Your approach would also negate the Lord's warning. He says that he is specifically giving us this procedure so that we are not deceived when other alleged revelations come in.

So, here's my question: Why warn us against being deceived in the future with revelations not from him, if that was never going to happen?

Any external revelations wouldn't merit a warning because we wouldn't believe them anyway unless they come from 'the brethren'. The warning was clearly about internal deception. Right? Wrong? Yes? No? Maybe so?

If you are making the claim that we are an apostolic church, then I would still feel obligated to default to the description of apostolic duties as the Lord describes them in the D&C, not the non-revelatory duties the Q12 gave themselves. I think this is fair.

I very much support the 12 in fulfilling their D&C role, too bad they've pawned missionary work off to young men.

Context is everything.
D&C 43 was given in response to people claiming they were prophets too, and were delivering prophetic messages for the church. God responded by saying that Joseph was his man and that he was only working through him.
And when he said he would appoint another through Joseph he was specifically addressing the issue of prophetic continuity should Joseph fall through transgression. D&C 43 is not addressing prophetic succession following Joseph's death, and is certainly nothing to do with the office of president of the Church.

[Shawn Henry]

Context is everything.
D&C 43 was given in response to people claiming they were prophets too, and were delivering prophetic messages for the church. God responded by saying that Joseph was his man and that he was only working through him.
And when he said he would appoint another through Joseph he was specifically addressing the issue of prophetic continuity should Joseph fall through transgression. D&C 43 is not addressing prophetic succession following Joseph's death, and is certainly nothing to do with the office of president of the Church.

I would say the people claiming they were prophets was only the trigger event that caused Joseph to ask, but the Lord's response was not to that event only, but he used that event to lay down the bigger picture. (I know, just semantics)

He was addressing both prophetic succession and whether Joseph could fall. That's why he says "until he be taken". This is a reference to being taken from the earth. There is both "he be taken" and it be "taken from him". Two "takens", two different contexts.

Being President of the 12 can't make one President of the church. It is not a default position. The D&C is clear that President of the church belongs in the First Presidency, an entirely different quorum. The D&C gives the right to receive the oracles for the church to the First Presidency and that is why they ended in 1844.

[Shawn Henry]

Context is everything.

[Robin Hood]

Context is everything.
D&C 43 was given in response to people claiming they were prophets too, and were delivering prophetic messages for the church. God responded by saying that Joseph was his man and that he was only working through him.
And when he said he would appoint another through Joseph he was specifically addressing the issue of prophetic continuity should Joseph fall through transgression. D&C 43 is not addressing prophetic succession following Joseph's death, and is certainly nothing to do with the office of president of the Church.

I would say the people claiming they were prophets was only the trigger event that caused Joseph to ask, but the Lord's response was not to that event only, but he used that event to lay down the bigger picture. (I know, just semantics)

He was addressing both prophetic succession and whether Joseph could fall. That's why he says "until he be taken". This is a reference to being taken from the earth. There is both "he be taken" and it be "taken from him". Two "takens", two different contexts.

Being President of the 12 can't make one President of the church. It is not a default position. The D&C is clear that President of the church belongs in the First Presidency, an entirely different quorum. The D&C gives the right to receive the oracles for the church to the First Presidency and that is why they ended in 1844.

In the absence of a first presidency the presiding Quorum would be the Twelve. I don't think this is disputed.
Whether the oracle's rest with the Twelve in this circumstance is the issue. I personally believe it is difficult to justify, and history since 1844 suggests it is unlikely.
That doesn't mean the church president can't be inspired on a particular issue etc, but that is very different from the prophetic mantle.
I believe Brigham was probably out of order in reorganising the FP, though it is understandable as a more efficient way of running the church.

[Shawn Henry]

In the absence of a first presidency the presiding Quorum would be the Twelve. I don't think this is disputed.

I agree with this portion:

"That doesn't mean the church president can't be inspired on a particular issue etc, but that is very different from the prophetic mantle.
I believe Brigham was probably out of order in reorganizing the FP, though it is understandable as a more efficient way of running the church."

As far as presiding quorums though, it should be disputed. There were 3 other quorums equal in authority to the FP according to the D&C, the High Council, the 12, and the 70.

Understandably, the 70 are out because despite being equal to the 12, they were also under the 12. The Nauvoo High Council, however, was not under the 12. Matter of fact, their authority was inside the Stakes of Zion and the 12 had no authority inside Nauvoo. The Nauvoo High Council should have been running Nauvoo, but obviously we know BY was quite assertive.

So based on the D&C alone, ignoring our inherited precepts, wouldn't you expect the Nauvoo High Council to step up and be the body leading the church?

[Baurak Ale]

Wow. I can't believe that a majority of respondents—37% at the time of this writing—answered that BY, JT, and WW received false revelations and that LS "was the first to stop pretending." It's telling of what this forum has become: a stagnant pond for the breeding and spread of DOC thought. Might need to change to website to www.rldsfreedomforum.com soon.

[Luke]

Wow. I can't believe that a majority of respondents—37% at the time of this writing—answered that BY, JT, and WW received false revelations and that LS "was the first to stop pretending." It's telling of what this forum has become: a stagnant pond for the breeding and spread of DOC thought. Might need to change to website to www.rldsfreedomforum.com soon.

Bang on the money mate.

[InfoWarrior82]

Wow. I can't believe that a majority of respondents—37% at the time of this writing—answered that BY, JT, and WW received false revelations and that LS "was the first to stop pretending." It's telling of what this forum has become: a stagnant pond for the breeding and spread of DOC thought. Might need to change to website to www.rldsfreedomforum.com soon.

So what are your thoughts on why this manner of revelation stopped abruptly with Wilford Woodruff?

[Baurak Ale]

Wow. I can't believe that a majority of respondents—37% at the time of this writing—answered that BY, JT, and WW received false revelations and that LS "was the first to stop pretending." It's telling of what this forum has become: a stagnant pond for the breeding and spread of DOC thought. Might need to change to website to www.rldsfreedomforum.com soon.

So what are your thoughts on why this manner of revelation stopped abruptly with Wilford Woodruff?

I appreciate the question. My thoughts are summed up in the alleged reasons given by the Lord to Lorenzo Snow when he appeared to him in the hallway of the temple instead of the Holy of Holies, which was that Lorenzo qualified for that personal visitation inasmuch as Lorenzo was a good person but that the Lord was displeased with the church and hence symbolically did not appear to Lorenza as its President in the appointed or expected place. So what happened between WW's last "thus saith the Lord" revelation and that personal appearance to LS that has ever since put the church in a state only worthy of the bath'-kol? Exactly all the things the previous leaders had warned would incur God's displeasure, but among them foremost the abrogation of celestial plural marriage as Luke has pointed out.

[Serragon]

Wow. I can't believe that a majority of respondents—37% at the time of this writing—answered that BY, JT, and WW received false revelations and that LS "was the first to stop pretending." It's telling of what this forum has become: a stagnant pond for the breeding and spread of DOC thought. Might need to change to website to www.rldsfreedomforum.com soon.

What is DOC thought?

[InfoWarrior82]

Wow. I can't believe that a majority of respondents—37% at the time of this writing—answered that BY, JT, and WW received false revelations and that LS "was the first to stop pretending." It's telling of what this forum has become: a stagnant pond for the breeding and spread of DOC thought. Might need to change to website to www.rldsfreedomforum.com soon.

So what are your thoughts on why this manner of revelation stopped abruptly with Wilford Woodruff?

I appreciate the question. My thoughts are summed up in the alleged reasons given by the Lord to Lorenzo Snow when he appeared to him in the hallway of the temple instead of the Holy of Holies, which was that Lorenzo qualified for that personal visitation inasmuch as Lorenzo was a good person but that the Lord was displeased with the church and hence symbolically did not appear to Lorenza as its President in the appointed or expected place. So what happened between WW's last "thus saith the Lord" revelation and that personal appearance to LS that has ever since put the church in a state only worthy of the bath'-kol? Exactly all the things the previous leaders had warned would incur God's displeasure, but among them foremost the abrogation of celestial plural marriage as Luke has pointed out.

So #1 ? More or less?