The Great Apostasy by James E. Talmage and the State of the LDS Church Today

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Luke
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The Great Apostasy by James E. Talmage and the State of the LDS Church Today

Post by Luke »

I was reading from this book today while compiling something, and realised something that's almost a "gotcha" for TBMs.
  • “Among the more detailed or specific causes of this ever widening departure from the spirit of the gospel of Christ, this rapidly growing apostasy, the following may be considered as important examples:
    (1). The corrupting of the simple principles of the gospel by the admixture of the so-called philosophic systems of the times.
    (2). Unauthorized additions to the ceremonies of the Church, and the introduction of vital changes in essential ordinances.
    (3). Unauthorized changes in Church organization and government.” (James E. Talmage, The Great Apostasy, 1909, pg. 90-91)
In fulfilment of each point, the LDS Church has:

1. Become ultra-friendly with Babylon and softened its stance on homosexuality
2. Changed the Temple Ordinances time and time again
3. Abolished the office of Patriarch to the Church, ordained Seventies as High Priests first, changed the roles of Teachers and Deacons entirely, etc.

These are simply undeniable facts.

If the LDS Church has walked the same path as the early Church, how can they claim that they are not in apostasy?

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madvin
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Re: The Great Apostasy by James E. Talmage and the State of the LDS Church Today

Post by madvin »

I can definitely agree with #1.
It can be argued that #2 and 3 were authorized.

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Luke
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Re: The Great Apostasy by James E. Talmage and the State of the LDS Church Today

Post by Luke »

madvin wrote: October 4th, 2022, 9:52 am I can definitely agree with #1.
It can be argued that #2 and 3 were authorized.
#2 can't possibly be authorised.
  • “Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles.” (Joseph Smith, 11 June 1843, TPJS 308)
Not sure that abolishing what Joseph Smith called "the highest office in the Church" could be authorised either.

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Niemand
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Re: The Great Apostasy by James E. Talmage and the State of the LDS Church Today

Post by Niemand »

Our current president seems to specialise in moving around the deck chairs on the Titanic.

I've no idea why Patriarch was removed. A rival power structure to the FP?

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Jamescm
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Re: The Great Apostasy by James E. Talmage and the State of the LDS Church Today

Post by Jamescm »

I would argue point #2 that no vital changes have been made to the temple ordinances... But I am slightly concerned about the shift away from sisters professing obedience to their husbands as husbands obey the Lord. Marriage is a partnership and a coming together to be "one flesh". The presiding position of "male" is spiritual, eternal, and even usually demonstrated by biological/psychological tendencies. If this one uniting point is omitted, then were are only two still-separate individuals prone to paralyze one another in indecision, or even split away. To decry that it makes sons and daughters unequal is to either misunderstand or to denigrate(as Babylon does) the roles, strengths, and weaknesses of sons and daughters.

... Nevermind, maybe #2 is valid. Maybe.

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Luke
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Re: The Great Apostasy by James E. Talmage and the State of the LDS Church Today

Post by Luke »

Jamescm wrote: October 4th, 2022, 11:28 am I would argue point #2 that no vital changes have been made to the temple ordinances... But I am slightly concerned about the shift away from sisters professing obedience to their husbands as husbands obey the Lord. Marriage is a partnership and a coming together to be "one flesh". The presiding position of "male" is spiritual, eternal, and even usually demonstrated by biological/psychological tendencies. If this one uniting point is omitted, then were are only two still-separate individuals prone to paralyze one another in indecision, or even split away. To decry that it makes sons and daughters unequal is to either misunderstand or to denigrate(as Babylon does) the roles, strengths, and weaknesses of sons and daughters.

... Nevermind, maybe #2 is valid. Maybe.
In Nauvoo, the washing was a full body washing, and the anointing consisted of oil being poured on your head and running down your body.

Now the washing and anointing is nothing but a drop of each.

And we have the audacity to point the finger at Catholics for going from immersion to sprinkling.

EmmaLee
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Re: The Great Apostasy by James E. Talmage and the State of the LDS Church Today

Post by EmmaLee »

Luke wrote: October 4th, 2022, 10:34 am
madvin wrote: October 4th, 2022, 9:52 am I can definitely agree with #1.
It can be argued that #2 and 3 were authorized.
#2 can't possibly be authorised.
  • “Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles.” (Joseph Smith, 11 June 1843, TPJS 308)

My daughters-in-law were required to make a different covenant in the temple when they married our sons in the last few years, than I did when my husband and I got married over 3 decades ago. I'm still looking for the revelation from God stating why that ordinance/principle was changed, and how it can possibly jive with what Joseph, a true prophet, said in the quote above.

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Mindfields
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Re: The Great Apostasy by James E. Talmage and the State of the LDS Church Today

Post by Mindfields »

In a hundred years Mormonism will be the Catholic church of today.

blitzinstripes
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Re: The Great Apostasy by James E. Talmage and the State of the LDS Church Today

Post by blitzinstripes »

Mindfields wrote: October 4th, 2022, 12:28 pm In a hundred years Mormonism will be the Catholic church of today.
Thankfully, I don't think we will have to wait nearly that long. From any perspective.

At their current rate of serving Babylon they will surpass the Catholics and land with even more liberal "woke" churches such as the UCC and Unitarians.

I firmly believe we are very close (much less than 100 years) to the appearance of the End Times Servant and the great sifting. The church will be flipped upside down, leadership and a great portion of the membership will be purged, and the remnant that remain will begin final preparations for Zion.

Christ will return and set up his kingdom upon the earth.

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TheChristian
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Re: The Great Apostasy by James E. Talmage and the State of the LDS Church Today

Post by TheChristian »

If one looks into the history of Ancient Israel, we see constant partial fallings away and revivals........
In the days after the first Apostles we see the very same, partial, not complete fallings away and revivals.
There appears both in the Bible and thru out the time of Christianity that there is "ALWAYS" a faithfull remnant in every generation............
It is easy for sectarians seeking to establish their bias and prejudices against historical Christianity to point out its faults and frailties in an effort to prove that their sectarian way is right and all others are wrong........
That fact is that there was no complete falling away in those 1800 years after the demise of the first disciples...........
The essential saving truths were never lost thru out the long centuries, even though conspiring men and devils sought to throw up a mist to obscure them or seek to distract the true followers of Jesus to worship idols, nevertheless the faithfull remnant remained steadfast in those simple saving truths........

That God Himself would manifest Himself in the Flesh,
That His name was Jesus of Nazerath,
That He died apon the cross to pay the price of creations sins,
And after three days arose from the dead,
And the simple creed of Pauls...

If you can confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord,
And believe in your heart He arose from the dead,
You are saved!

As said those most precious of Salvation truths continued thru out the long centuries and the very gates of hell could not prevail against them.........

LDS Watchman
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Re: The Great Apostasy by James E. Talmage and the State of the LDS Church Today

Post by LDS Watchman »

Luke wrote: October 4th, 2022, 9:20 am I was reading from this book today while compiling something, and realised something that's almost a "gotcha" for TBMs.
  • “Among the more detailed or specific causes of this ever widening departure from the spirit of the gospel of Christ, this rapidly growing apostasy, the following may be considered as important examples:
    (1). The corrupting of the simple principles of the gospel by the admixture of the so-called philosophic systems of the times.
    (2). Unauthorized additions to the ceremonies of the Church, and the introduction of vital changes in essential ordinances.
    (3). Unauthorized changes in Church organization and government.” (James E. Talmage, The Great Apostasy, 1909, pg. 90-91)
In fulfilment of each point, the LDS Church has:

1. Become ultra-friendly with Babylon and softened its stance on homosexuality
2. Changed the Temple Ordinances time and time again
3. Abolished the office of Patriarch to the Church, ordained Seventies as High Priests first, changed the roles of Teachers and Deacons entirely, etc.

These are simply undeniable facts.

If the LDS Church has walked the same path as the early Church, how can they claim that they are not in apostasy?
There are different degrees of apostasy. If you've read the entire book, Talmage doesn't claim that these three things were the sole cause of the Great Apostasy that led to all priesthood authority being lost.

And quite frankly things are different today than they were 2000 years ago. Today we have the word of the Lord that the church and keys have been restored for the last time, that the servants of God (Elders of the church) have been sent out for the last time to prune hus vineyard, and that church will not be completely overcome by apostasy again.

We also don't know to what degree God justifies the brethren in softening the stance on homosexuality, making changes to the temple ordinances, and changing the roles of priesthood offices. God may have allowed these things because of the hardness of the members hearts.

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MikeMaillet
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Re: The Great Apostasy by James E. Talmage and the State of the LDS Church Today

Post by MikeMaillet »

The modern-day church is in full apostasy and it doesn't take much reading or studying to arrive at that conclusion. Our job was to live the United Order so that we could become a peculiar people and an example to the world. Living the covenant as described in the Book of Mormon is what would have made us peculiar and there are examples in the Book of Mormon where the descendants of Lehi were successful in doing this, but these times were short lived. The ancient societies began to crumble when the people became proud, started wearing costly apparel and no longer had everything in common.

Now we build shopping malls, invest sacred offerings into the Babylonian stock market and own hunting preserves where the rich can spend tons of money so that they can blow the head off Bambi in their lust for blood. We have the iFit Apostle who shares his duties between God and Mammon. I've visited SLC and have seen a city of great contrasts. Some of the neighbourhoods were poor and dilapidated whilst others were decked with multi-million dollar homes where expensive cars, boats... were parked. We wear costly apparel to go to church and the business suit has become the uniform of God's Priesthood. Many of the Sisters of Zion wear makeup, jewelry and all sorts of other accoutrements. Isaiah doesn't pull any punches and describes these women as the excrement of Zion.

We have adopted a Babylonian lifestyle wherein most of us no longer have any farming skills and we have opted to work for companies instead. We spend most of our time making stuff (idols) and use the Gadiantons' Satanic money to procure the wares of Babylon, the wares that are sold in church-owned malls. When did the people of God start worshipping statues???

As Uncle Roger is wont to say, "Hayiaa!"

Mike Maillet
Ingleside, Ontario

NowWhat
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Re: The Great Apostasy by James E. Talmage and the State of the LDS Church Today

Post by NowWhat »

I wear make up and I like earrings, but many of my clothes are second hand. I love hunting for treasures in thrift stores. So, does that even things up, Mike, or am I still the excrement of Zion?

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Cruiserdude
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Post by Cruiserdude »

NowWhat wrote: October 7th, 2022, 8:38 am I wear make up and I like earrings, but many of my clothes are second hand. I love hunting for treasures in thrift stores. So, does that even things up, Mike, or am I still the excrement of Zion?
I hear that! Nothing gets me excited like finding a ripping deal on a nice high quality used/2nd hand tool or appliance or clothes or whatever it I'm happens to be. I like quality, but I refuse(most times, anyways) to pay 'new' prices for quality that I can get at half the cost.

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LDS Physician
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Re: The Great Apostasy by James E. Talmage and the State of the LDS Church Today

Post by LDS Physician »

EmmaLee wrote: October 4th, 2022, 11:47 am
Luke wrote: October 4th, 2022, 10:34 am
madvin wrote: October 4th, 2022, 9:52 am I can definitely agree with #1.
It can be argued that #2 and 3 were authorized.
#2 can't possibly be authorised.
  • “Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles.” (Joseph Smith, 11 June 1843, TPJS 308)

My daughters-in-law were required to make a different covenant in the temple when they married our sons in the last few years, than I did when my husband and I got married over 3 decades ago. I'm still looking for the revelation from God stating why that ordinance/principle was changed, and how it can possibly jive with what Joseph, a true prophet, said in the quote above.
Removed penalties that I was shocked with when I went through the temple as a young man. That's a significant change in the ordinance, right? Removal?

EmmaLee
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Re: The Great Apostasy by James E. Talmage and the State of the LDS Church Today

Post by EmmaLee »

LDS Physician wrote: October 7th, 2022, 11:38 am
EmmaLee wrote: October 4th, 2022, 11:47 am
Luke wrote: October 4th, 2022, 10:34 am
madvin wrote: October 4th, 2022, 9:52 am I can definitely agree with #1.
It can be argued that #2 and 3 were authorized.
#2 can't possibly be authorised.
  • “Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles.” (Joseph Smith, 11 June 1843, TPJS 308)

My daughters-in-law were required to make a different covenant in the temple when they married our sons in the last few years, than I did when my husband and I got married over 3 decades ago. I'm still looking for the revelation from God stating why that ordinance/principle was changed, and how it can possibly jive with what Joseph, a true prophet, said in the quote above.
Removed penalties that I was shocked with when I went through the temple as a young man. That's a significant change in the ordinance, right? Removal?

Who knows if the penalties should have been in there in the first place, etc. but yes, removing them was definitely a big change in the ordinance. As are the covenants women now make that are different from the covenants we made years ago. Lots of changes. "...are not to be altered or changed." Hmm....

Mamabear
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Re: The Great Apostasy by James E. Talmage and the State of the LDS Church Today

Post by Mamabear »

LDS Physician wrote: October 7th, 2022, 11:38 am
EmmaLee wrote: October 4th, 2022, 11:47 am
Luke wrote: October 4th, 2022, 10:34 am
madvin wrote: October 4th, 2022, 9:52 am I can definitely agree with #1.
It can be argued that #2 and 3 were authorized.
#2 can't possibly be authorised.
  • “Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles.” (Joseph Smith, 11 June 1843, TPJS 308)

My daughters-in-law were required to make a different covenant in the temple when they married our sons in the last few years, than I did when my husband and I got married over 3 decades ago. I'm still looking for the revelation from God stating why that ordinance/principle was changed, and how it can possibly jive with what Joseph, a true prophet, said in the quote above.
Removed penalties that I was shocked with when I went through the temple as a young man. That's a significant change in the ordinance, right? Removal?
I’m disappointed they changed the blood oath. If they still had it when I went thru, I would’ve never went back and saved myself so much time and devotion.

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LDS Physician
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Re: The Great Apostasy by James E. Talmage and the State of the LDS Church Today

Post by LDS Physician »

LDS Watchman wrote: October 6th, 2022, 9:00 am
Luke wrote: October 4th, 2022, 9:20 am I was reading from this book today while compiling something, and realised something that's almost a "gotcha" for TBMs.
  • “Among the more detailed or specific causes of this ever widening departure from the spirit of the gospel of Christ, this rapidly growing apostasy, the following may be considered as important examples:
    (1). The corrupting of the simple principles of the gospel by the admixture of the so-called philosophic systems of the times.
    (2). Unauthorized additions to the ceremonies of the Church, and the introduction of vital changes in essential ordinances.
    (3). Unauthorized changes in Church organization and government.” (James E. Talmage, The Great Apostasy, 1909, pg. 90-91)
In fulfilment of each point, the LDS Church has:

1. Become ultra-friendly with Babylon and softened its stance on homosexuality
2. Changed the Temple Ordinances time and time again
3. Abolished the office of Patriarch to the Church, ordained Seventies as High Priests first, changed the roles of Teachers and Deacons entirely, etc.

These are simply undeniable facts.

If the LDS Church has walked the same path as the early Church, how can they claim that they are not in apostasy?
There are different degrees of apostasy. If you've read the entire book, Talmage doesn't claim that these three things were the sole cause of the Great Apostasy that led to all priesthood authority being lost.

And quite frankly things are different today than they were 2000 years ago. Today we have the word of the Lord that the church and keys have been restored for the last time, that the servants of God (Elders of the church) have been sent out for the last time to prune hus vineyard, and that church will not be completely overcome by apostasy again.

We also don't know to what degree God justifies the brethren in softening the stance on homosexuality, making changes to the temple ordinances, and changing the roles of priesthood offices. God may have allowed these things because of the hardness of the members hearts.
Things you mention here haven't happened. Servants have not been sent out "the last time" to prune his vineyard, keys have not been restored "for the last time" ... more apostacy is coming and is currently present. Wheat and tares are together ... that last pruning hasn't even begun.

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LDS Physician
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Re: The Great Apostasy by James E. Talmage and the State of the LDS Church Today

Post by LDS Physician »

Mamabear wrote: October 7th, 2022, 11:44 am
LDS Physician wrote: October 7th, 2022, 11:38 am
EmmaLee wrote: October 4th, 2022, 11:47 am
Luke wrote: October 4th, 2022, 10:34 am

#2 can't possibly be authorised.
  • “Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles.” (Joseph Smith, 11 June 1843, TPJS 308)

My daughters-in-law were required to make a different covenant in the temple when they married our sons in the last few years, than I did when my husband and I got married over 3 decades ago. I'm still looking for the revelation from God stating why that ordinance/principle was changed, and how it can possibly jive with what Joseph, a true prophet, said in the quote above.
Removed penalties that I was shocked with when I went through the temple as a young man. That's a significant change in the ordinance, right? Removal?
I’m disappointed they changed the blood oath. If they still had it when I went thru, I would’ve never went back and saved myself so much time and devotion.
I was such a young man (18 at the time) --- I had no idea what was going on. No prep at all. But there were my loving parents, doing the same thing so I just trusted them.

LDS Watchman
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Re: The Great Apostasy by James E. Talmage and the State of the LDS Church Today

Post by LDS Watchman »

LDS Physician wrote: October 7th, 2022, 12:12 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: October 6th, 2022, 9:00 am
Luke wrote: October 4th, 2022, 9:20 am I was reading from this book today while compiling something, and realised something that's almost a "gotcha" for TBMs.
  • “Among the more detailed or specific causes of this ever widening departure from the spirit of the gospel of Christ, this rapidly growing apostasy, the following may be considered as important examples:
    (1). The corrupting of the simple principles of the gospel by the admixture of the so-called philosophic systems of the times.
    (2). Unauthorized additions to the ceremonies of the Church, and the introduction of vital changes in essential ordinances.
    (3). Unauthorized changes in Church organization and government.” (James E. Talmage, The Great Apostasy, 1909, pg. 90-91)
In fulfilment of each point, the LDS Church has:

1. Become ultra-friendly with Babylon and softened its stance on homosexuality
2. Changed the Temple Ordinances time and time again
3. Abolished the office of Patriarch to the Church, ordained Seventies as High Priests first, changed the roles of Teachers and Deacons entirely, etc.

These are simply undeniable facts.

If the LDS Church has walked the same path as the early Church, how can they claim that they are not in apostasy?
There are different degrees of apostasy. If you've read the entire book, Talmage doesn't claim that these three things were the sole cause of the Great Apostasy that led to all priesthood authority being lost.

And quite frankly things are different today than they were 2000 years ago. Today we have the word of the Lord that the church and keys have been restored for the last time, that the servants of God (Elders of the church) have been sent out for the last time to prune hus vineyard, and that church will not be completely overcome by apostasy again.

We also don't know to what degree God justifies the brethren in softening the stance on homosexuality, making changes to the temple ordinances, and changing the roles of priesthood offices. God may have allowed these things because of the hardness of the members hearts.
Things you mention here haven't happened. Servants have not been sent out "the last time" to prune his vineyard, keys have not been restored "for the last time" ... more apostacy is coming and is currently present. Wheat and tares are together ... that last pruning hasn't even begun.
The D&C and statements by Joseph Smith clearly say that the keys have been restored for the last time and that the servants have been sent out for the last time to prune the vineyard beginning in the 1830s. I can quote numerous scriptures and statements which clearly say this.

Serragon
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Re: The Great Apostasy by James E. Talmage and the State of the LDS Church Today

Post by Serragon »

EmmaLee wrote: October 7th, 2022, 11:44 am
LDS Physician wrote: October 7th, 2022, 11:38 am
EmmaLee wrote: October 4th, 2022, 11:47 am
Luke wrote: October 4th, 2022, 10:34 am

#2 can't possibly be authorised.
  • “Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles.” (Joseph Smith, 11 June 1843, TPJS 308)

My daughters-in-law were required to make a different covenant in the temple when they married our sons in the last few years, than I did when my husband and I got married over 3 decades ago. I'm still looking for the revelation from God stating why that ordinance/principle was changed, and how it can possibly jive with what Joseph, a true prophet, said in the quote above.
Removed penalties that I was shocked with when I went through the temple as a young man. That's a significant change in the ordinance, right? Removal?

Who knows if the penalties should have been in there in the first place, etc. but yes, removing them was definitely a big change in the ordinance. As are the covenants women now make that are different from the covenants we made years ago. Lots of changes. "...are not to be altered or changed." Hmm....
Removal of the penalties was a big change, but it didn't actually change any doctrine. It was just a lesser emphasis on a principle.

The change to the Law of Obedience was much more significant because it actually changed doctrine. And the change to the Law of Chastity allows for future changes regarding same sex marriage to be implemented.

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MikeMaillet
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Re: The Great Apostasy by James E. Talmage and the State of the LDS Church Today

Post by MikeMaillet »

NowWhat wrote: October 7th, 2022, 8:38 am I wear make up and I like earrings, but many of my clothes are second hand. I love hunting for treasures in thrift stores. So, does that even things up, Mike, or am I still the excrement of Zion?
I'm with you on the thrift stores and if it was up to me that would be enough to make things even :-) My wife wears a bit of makeup and I grew up in a world where makeup was fine and accepted but then I go and study Isaiah and find stuff like this in chapter 3 below. I was born in 1957 and when you saw a guy with a tattoo it usually meant that he had done some time. Now, things have changed quite a bit. I have a sports jacket in which I feel rather dashing but I don't consider myself vain.

Maybe we should look at these scriptures as a window into what is acceptable in Zion and then look at ourselves in the mirror, so to speak, and see how far we are out of alignment. We are on the rung of Jacob's ladder where we either ascend or descend. Ascension to the next rung means acceptance into Zion but the rung below means 1,000 years in Sheol before being resurrected into a lesser kingdom.

I'll be 65 years old in a few weeks and maybe my age has something to do with my getting serious all of a sudden but it was the vision of Isaiah that got me thinking differently and that forced me to look at myself, the world around me and my relationship with my Lord. All I can say is that after two years of reading, pondering and praying is that I am a changed man.

I hope you took no offence at my previous comment. My wife tells me I have a way with words and I use the excuse that da Henglish is my second language :-)

Mike

16) Jehovah says, moreover,
Because the women of Zion are haughty
and put on airs, painting their eyes,
ever flirting when they walk
and clacking with their feet,

17) my Lord will afflict the scalps
of the women of Zion with baldness;
Jehovah will expose their private parts.

18) In that day my Lord will strip away their finery—the anklets, head ornaments and crescents,

19) the pendants, chains and scarves,

20) tiaras, bracelets and ribbons, zodiac signs and charm amulets,

21) the rings, the noselets,

22) the elegant dress, the shawl, the kerchief and the purse,

23) hosiery, sheer linen, millinery, and cloaks.

24) And instead of perfume there shall be a stench,
instead of the girdle, a piece of twine,
instead of the coiffure, baldness,
instead of the festive dress, a loincloth of burlap;
for in place of beauty
there shall be ignominy.

NowWhat
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Re: The Great Apostasy by James E. Talmage and the State of the LDS Church Today

Post by NowWhat »

No offense taken, Mike. We just had a discussion on your issue at dinner, e.g., how it's amazing that virtually NO women in the Choir have grey or white hair. They must tell the women to dye it. There is a certain woman you that you see here and there in the Church, but especially, for example, in the Indian Streets of Provo, way up the side of the mountain: always with a blonde bob, ratted and sprayed and immovable, big rock on the finger, skinny, well made up, expensive clothes, maybe a little disingenuous. I think he's talking about them--surely not me!

J2
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Re: The Great Apostasy by James E. Talmage and the State of the LDS Church Today

Post by J2 »

Honestly, #2 remains the single biggest issue in the church today, and the primary reason I've become somewhat disillusioned with the leadership in Salt Lake.

Covid policies were certainly highly problematic, but even those things pale in comparison to the ordinance changes of 2019.

Ordinances that were given to man by God should NEVER change.

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