Stick of Ephraim question

For discussing the Church, Gospel of Jesus Christ, Mormonism, etc.
User avatar
Mindfields
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1869
Location: Utah

Re: Stick of Ephraim question

Post by Mindfields »

Lemarque wrote: May 4th, 2022, 1:20 pm
Atticus wrote: May 4th, 2022, 12:32 pm
Lemarque wrote: May 4th, 2022, 10:41 am
Atticus wrote: May 4th, 2022, 7:46 am

The stick of Ephraim is the tribe of Ephraim. It isn't a book.
Atticus, please listen to the words of the prophets. Do you have a single utterance from a prophet that states that the stick of Ephraim is a tribe? You are walking a dangerous road by directly contradicting what modern day revelation has taught us.

Russel M Nelson: "Today, Saints living in many nations of the earth gratefully hold the Bible (the stick of Judah) and the Book of Mormon (the stick of Ephraim) bound as one in their hands."

Ulisses Soares: "Ezekiel spoke about the stick of Judah (the Bible) and the stick of Ephraim (the Book of Mormon) being brought together as one."

Boyd K Packer: "The sticks, of course, are records or books."

Gordon B. Hinckley (referencing Ez. 37) : "If the Book of Mormon is true, the Bible is true. The Bible is the Testament of the Old World. The Book of Mormon is the Testament of the New. The one is the record of Judah, the other is the record of Joseph, and they have come together in the hand of the Lord in fulfillment of the prophecy of Ezekiel."

Orson Pratt: "Here then was a symbol represented before their eyes in language that could not be misunderstood; it was a symbol of two records; for it is well known that records were kept in ancient times on parchment, rolled upon sticks, the same as we keep our maps at this day."

N. Eldon Tanner: "Here again, by direct revelation and by direct revelation only, do we understand clearly what Ezekiel meant. Here, the stick of Judah as referred to is the Bible, and the stick of Ephraim, which is written for Joseph and all the house of Israel his companions, is the Book of Mormon. Through the power of God and by direct revelation, this Book of Mormon, which contains the gospel in its fullness, was translated, and it with the Bible, became "one in thine hand." How clear and simple the words of Ezekiel become if we will but listen to the prophet's voice!"


It's simple and clear, Atticus. Just listen to the prophet's voice!
The stick equals book interpretation is the one put forth by the church. I understand why they interpret it that way and it may very well be a correct layer of interpretation. But I believe that the most correct interpretation is that stick equals tribe or people.

Look at this verse in D&C 27:5

"...Moroni, whom I have sent unto you to reveal the Book of Mormon, containing the fulness of my everlasting gospel, to whom I have committed the keys of the record of the stick of Ephraim"

I don't believe that he is saying that Moroni gave Joseph Smith the record of the book of Ephraim. I think stick in this case clearly means the people of Ephraim themselves and not a book.
That's pretty bold, saying that you think you have the "most correct" interpretation after multiple prophets have stated clearly and simply what the stick is.

You can't be more correct than the prophets.

Even if you have a verse of scripture that you interpret in a way that suits your preferred interpretation.

If you can find the words of modern prophets that support your view, I would love to see them so I can grow in my understanding.

If you can't find the words of modern prophets that support your view, and are relying on your personal interpretation of a single verse, that's a dangerous path to be walking. Stay on the straight and narrow, don't wander into forbidden paths thinking you know better than holding steadfastly to the iron rod.


As for your D&C verse, here are my thoughts (in good faith).

D&C 25:5-14 goes through a list of different servants of Christ from different dispensations. It mentions the 'keys' Christ committed to each of the following:

Moroni: Keys of the record of the stick of Ephraim

Elias: Keys of bringing to pass the restoration of all things

Elijah: Keys of the power of turning the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to the fathers

Joseph Smith: Keys of ministry and keys of Christ's Kingdom

The phrase "to whom I have committed the keys of" to me means "to whom I gave the special mission of"

So I understand the following: "Moroni, whom I have sent unto you to reveal the Book of Mormon, containing the fulness of my everlasting gospel, to whom I have committed the keys of the record of the stick of Ephraim"

As saying: "Moroni had the special mission to preserve the record that would become the book of Ephraim, which is why he was sent to you to reveal where it was hidden."

Just like how Elias, Elijah, and other prophets not mentioned in this specific section of the D&C each came to Joseph Smith because of their specific callings they had in their time.
Modern Prophets are often wrong and lie often. Example: See church history, church finances, doctrinal changes etc. Just because they say something doesn't automatically make it correct. One day in the future the definition of Gaslighting will have a section that states "see Mormonism"

User avatar
Alexander
the Great
Posts: 4590
Location: amongst the brotherhood of the Black Robed Regiment; cocked hat and cocked rifle

Re: Stick of Ephraim question

Post by Alexander »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 1st, 2022, 7:18 am
Alexander wrote: May 4th, 2022, 10:57 pm
Atticus is Logan/Matthias confirmed. 😱
Turn out is was admittedly Logan/Matthias/Atticus/LDS Watchman.
Atti boy done gone and changed his name again

onefour1
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1596

Re: Stick of Ephraim question

Post by onefour1 »

The Bible itself is not strictly a record of Judah but of the whole House of Israel. Yet the Bible was kept and came forth unto us by the Jews preserving it. The Book of Mormon is a record of the posterity of Lehi among others yet it was brought forth unto us through the Prophet Joseph Smith who was of the tribe of Ephraim. So maybe when it refers to the stick of Judah and the stick of Ephraim it is referring to how it came unto us and not exact who the books are written about.

onefour1
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1596

Re: Stick of Ephraim question

Post by onefour1 »

Ezekiel 37:15-19
15 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

It is primarily referred to as the stick of Joseph which is in the hand of Ephraim in verse 19. In verse 16, it says it was wrote upon for Joseph and is called the stick of Ephraim. So I don't think that the stick itself is particularly just the history of Ephraim but the whole tribe of Joseph and the tribes of Israel his fellows. The stick of Judah is for Judah and for the children of Israel his companions.

Post Reply