What's your excuse for not homeschooling your children?

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Robin Hood
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Re: What's your excuse for not homeschooling your children?

Post by Robin Hood »

Niemand wrote: September 27th, 2022, 4:31 pm
Robin Hood wrote: September 27th, 2022, 6:18 am My excuse is that my oldest child is 39 and my youngest is 29.
However, if I had my time again there is no question that I would definitely home school.
I am concerned about my grandchildren right now. The oldest has just started school.
My wife and I are seriously considering retiring early in order to home school them.
Weird times when a child knows about non-binary before their five times table.

The UK is riddled with it. Up here the game is to pin it on the SNP even though Labour and the Tories have pushed the same stuff. If anything the wokeness on the BBC and in education has increased under the Conservatives. They all follow the same international playbook not from an individual party.
I think the difference is that there is now quite a bit of push-back amongst the Conservative ranks, whereas Labour and the SNP are competing with each other to see who can appear to be the wokest. The SNP are winning.

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Niemand
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Re: What's your excuse for not homeschooling your children?

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Robin Hood wrote: September 27th, 2022, 11:39 pm
Niemand wrote: September 27th, 2022, 4:31 pm
Robin Hood wrote: September 27th, 2022, 6:18 am My excuse is that my oldest child is 39 and my youngest is 29.
However, if I had my time again there is no question that I would definitely home school.
I am concerned about my grandchildren right now. The oldest has just started school.
My wife and I are seriously considering retiring early in order to home school them.
Weird times when a child knows about non-binary before their five times table.

The UK is riddled with it. Up here the game is to pin it on the SNP even though Labour and the Tories have pushed the same stuff. If anything the wokeness on the BBC and in education has increased under the Conservatives. They all follow the same international playbook not from an individual party.
I think the difference is that there is now quite a bit of push-back amongst the Conservative ranks, whereas Labour and the SNP are competing with each other to see who can appear to be the wokest. The SNP are winning.
The interesting thing about the SNP (maybe working class elements in Labour too) is that this stuff is coming almost entirely from career politicians at the top. It is not popular among their grassroots and longterm membership which is made up of ordinary people. There are some who support it because they'll back whatever their leadership do (there's an SNP pundit called Peter Bell on social media who is like that)...

Local branches of the SNP are being split because of this. I know in Milngavie, which is a posh area to the north of Glasgow, that half their constituency members upped and left over the gender identity issue. Including the convenor's wife. Some of those people had been members for decades. So yes, it is happening within the SNP, but it isn't reported.

Globalists use politicians to push agendas and the SNP is no exception. The majority of people who vote SNP (or the other parties!) don't vote them in because they support intersectional projects. They vote them in because they think they'll stand up for Scottish interests and against the stupidities of Westminster. But globalist manipulators see that they have a big powerbase which is perfect for pushing this stuff.

If the SNP is booted out then someone else will (be paid to) take up the reins.

The other major parties have the same problem. Labour stopped paying lip service to the working class a long time ago, and alienated much of that support base. The Lib Dems go whichever way the wind blows. The Conservatives are like the SNP in this regard... people at the top including Boris and Truss pushing this, and a lot of Weffers, while ordinary Tories are not happy about it.

As for the Scottish Greens. They aren't quite a major party but they are even more riddled with this. Again like the SNP, it was not their original raison d'etre, and environmentalism seems to have taken a back seat to identity politics and attacks on religion thanks to Patrick Harvie etc.

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harakim
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Re: What's your excuse for not homeschooling your children?

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Rubicon wrote: September 26th, 2022, 8:50 pm
harakim wrote: September 26th, 2022, 7:53 pm
Rubicon wrote: September 24th, 2022, 12:54 pm It's not the same experience, though. Many who recognize the drawbacks to school still believe that the overall experience is better than homeschooling.
I'm also curious why you think this.
We have four children. Two of them have been valedictorians/salutatorians, and one of them is a high school junior currently (the fourth is on a mission in Austria). We could have homeschooled them, and they would have exactly the same level of knowledge and academic competency. They really didn't get any "value added" from the school system; having come from a very literary family, they have been light years ahead of their peers in school. But they had experiences (good and bad) that they simply wouldn't have had with homeschool (or with a homeschool coop or group trying to provide these).

I've also been a bishop twice, a counselor twice, and an EQP twice. My own experiences (which include bad, rough public school in Chicago) have helped me relate to and be able to help people in ways that simply wouldn't have been there if I were a product of 100% homeschool and being closed off from society like some here are advocating.

The homeschool movement (especially the radical strains of it) seem to me to be no different from the monastic movements in medieval Christianity. By seeking higher spiritual experiences through cutting themselves off and sequestering themselves, they are sorely lacking in key experiences we were sent to earth for. It's like the people who say they don't need a church to worship God; they can worship Him and feel His presence at home or hiking in the woods. They are completely missing the service and sacrifice parts of belonging to a church community --- and are no instrument at all in God's hands in bringing salvation to others.

Whenever people mention that homeschoolers they know are weird and sheltered, there are inevitable anecdotes about very accomplished, savvy, effective products of homeschooling to counteract this. The problem is that most people know too many homeschooled kids and adults for these anecdotes to have any effect. ;)
Yeah, it's weird that people always try to convince that their way is superior. It's almost likely they don't have the life experience to understand. Wherever you live, that's a weird homeschool culture and I can see why you would want to put your kids in public school. So I guess that answers my question.

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Niemand
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Re: What's your excuse for not homeschooling your children?

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harakim wrote: September 28th, 2022, 8:30 pm Yeah, it's weird that people always try to convince that their way is superior. It's almost likely they don't have the life experience to understand. Wherever you live, that's a weird homeschool culture and I can see why you would want to put your kids in public school. So I guess that answers my question.
The best argument for putting people into schools tends to be socialisation. (Not the curriculum or pupil-teacher ratio because both tend to be poor.) Unfortunately, that socialisation is often the wrong kind of socialisation, and can include severe forms of physical bullying, molestation/sexual pressures, social ostracisation, drug dealing/smoking/drunkenness and environments which are really unfit for social interaction for whatever reason. Unless you're willing to go private round here, the class sizes are big, the teaching hours are short and the facilities are awful.

But even in private schools where the class sizes and facilities may be better, a lot of those wrong forms of socialisation are going on. Boarding schools especially which often create all kinds of psychological issues in later life.

The Steiner Schools seem to have some good ideas although I disagree with them on a few things. For example, children aren't introduced to computers until quite late on to help develop their other faculties.
The problem is that most people know too many homeschooled kids and adults for these anecdotes to have any effect
I've known a few, but it is far less common here than in the States. Many people in the UK probably don't know anyone who is/has been homeschooled so can't make a judgement on the matter. The media stereotype is very negative and not representative...

If you do homeschool here, the authorities pester you non-stop but not as much as they used to. Long story, I was very briefly homeschooled (as in a few weeks, a month or two) because I was between schools. Our neighbours complained and the truancy officer (as we call them here) came over to check on me. The joke was that I progressed way quicker than I had at school, and was above the average level... the officer was actually stunned. This was because at the proper school we had "studied" dinosaurs and monsters and that type of crap by drawing them, whereas at home I was doing things like concentrating on my reading and writing, and my maths. I did everything in my own time and didn't have to rush to school early in the morning or put up with bullying.

All of the homeschooled children I've known have either been disabled (but very few) or extremely bright. This is a chicken and egg thing, since I think some were bright before hand.

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Niemand
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Re: What's your excuse for not homeschooling your children?

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School prepares children to live in a world which doesn't exist.
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Cruiserdude
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Re: What's your excuse for not homeschooling your children?

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Niemand wrote: September 29th, 2022, 3:57 am School prepares children to live in a world which doesn't exist.
Isn't that the truth...prepares them for fantasy land, for lala land.
I love that.

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Re: What's your excuse for not homeschooling your children?

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Niemand wrote: September 29th, 2022, 3:59 am School prepares children to live in a world which doesn't exist.
That’s a sweeping, illogical generalization.

Like saying “Educating a child prepares children to live in a world which doesn't exist.” SOME teachers, some curriculum & some schools may not be helpful. But all? No. I have taught my kids Summer School in which I specifically try to teach what I think they are missing in school & church to prepare them for the real world. (Eg: viewtopic.php?p=609493&hilit=Memorize#p609493)

Parents are children’s 1st and most impactful teachers. They are responsible for nourishing a relationship with their kids in which there is open communication - so if some imperfect human being says or does something wrong, it can be corrected. Parents who shield children from the world prepare children to live in a world which doesn't exist.

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Re: What's your excuse for not homeschooling your children?

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Rubicon wrote: September 24th, 2022, 12:54 pm It's not the same experience, though. Many who recognize the drawbacks to school still believe that the overall experience is better than homeschooling.
Yeah, overall, parents cannot provide all that schools do in terms of:
*Socializing (Isn’t a big part of life about learning to love people who are not like us?)
*Extracurricular Sports competitions, Arts etc
*Specialized teaching

In some cases, homeschooling may be best (if a school environment is dangerous, very bad etc)… and if parents themselves are exceptionally good teachers especially for younger children. But overall, the school experience is better. After lockdowns, I asked my kids if they want to do homeschool & they all said, “No!” Even though they sometimes complain about school, they missed it while they were doing online school & missed seeing friends etc.

It seems most high school homeschoolers are actually being taught online - they don’t really have teachers or their teachers are computers. Is that really better than a live human being? What would homeschool parents prefer - being taught by a live teacher… or a computer?

Maybe the question all parents - whether homeschooling or not - should ask themselves is, “How much screen time is appropriate for our kids? And are we being good examples?”

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Subcomandante
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Re: What's your excuse for not homeschooling your children?

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InfoWarrior82 wrote: September 24th, 2022, 8:44 am Hi everyone. Please go ahead and list your excuses for not homeschooling your children here.
In some places, it's illegal.

In others (like where I live) it's heavily regulated and many have no knowledge of how to proceed so they hire expensive lawyers to navigate them through the process.

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Niemand
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Re: What's your excuse for not homeschooling your children?

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Thinker wrote: September 29th, 2022, 8:11 am
Niemand wrote: September 29th, 2022, 3:59 am School prepares children to live in a world which doesn't exist.
That’s a sweeping, illogical generalization.
Given the state of education here it's largely true. They spend more time brainwashing children about sex and gender than teaching them how to cook or budget at home.

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Re: What's your excuse for not homeschooling your children?

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Niemand wrote: September 29th, 2022, 10:51 amFrom what I've seen it applies to both state and private schools round here…
I acknowledge there are definitely important missing aspects that should be taught in schools, but often are not. However, as you hinted at, schools do teach a lot… so I don’t see any need to dismiss them as entirely useless. Look at people who never went to school - (ie in some poor countries where schooling was a luxury) most cannot read or write & struggle a lot. Education has been found to be statistically correlated with happiness.

”… Overall, the results suggest that more educated people, on average, are happier than their less educated counterparts…” http://borisnikolaev.com/wp-content/upl ... ness_f.pdf

Sure, it isn’t perfect - but many people have access to various resources (libraries, www, etc) to supplement. Again, to suggest school is completely useless is an illogical, sweeping generalization. Most schools offer plenty of good that at least give some knowledge & skills to be able to learn more.

Re: your list (on other thread) of school failures in your area (Scotland?)…

*Most students I know in my area (US) & where I’ve lived before can read & write well & rapidly. In some pocket areas like urban Maryland, it’s not so great. But most I know of in the states I’ve lived in - are literarily competent upon high school graduation.

*Most schools (in the US) offer vocational training for job entry. Eg., I did this, as have my kids.

*High schools offer foreign languages but I wish elementary schools would. Some do (we had to drive a bit though & then they stopped).

*I suppose it depends on the school & job - but a lot of jobs definitely have hierarchal evaluations & positions.

*I was & my kids were taught all of those things through school.


Previously I imagined the land of Cambridge & University of Edinburgh etc… was cream of the crop… the origin of all academia. But you make it sound inferior. Maybe just your area… &/or only recently? Maybe I was mistaken.

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Fred
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Re: What's your excuse for not homeschooling your children?

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Thinker wrote: September 29th, 2022, 3:39 pm
Niemand wrote: September 29th, 2022, 10:51 amFrom what I've seen it applies to both state and private schools round here…
I acknowledge there are definitely important missing aspects that should be taught in schools, but often are not. However, as you hinted at, schools do teach a lot… so I don’t see any need to dismiss them as entirely useless. Look at people who never went to school - (ie in some poor countries where schooling was a luxury) most cannot read or write & struggle a lot. Education has been found to be statistically correlated with happiness.

”… Overall, the results suggest that more educated people, on average, are happier than their less educated counterparts…” http://borisnikolaev.com/wp-content/upl ... ness_f.pdf

Sure, it isn’t perfect - but many people have access to various resources (libraries, www, etc) to supplement. Again, to suggest school is completely useless is an illogical, sweeping generalization. Most schools offer plenty of good that at least give some knowledge & skills to be able to learn more.

Re: your list (on other thread) of school failures in your area (Scotland?)…

*Most students I know in my area (US) & where I’ve lived before can read & write well & rapidly. In some pocket areas like urban Maryland, it’s not so great. But most I know of in the states I’ve lived in - are literarily competent upon high school graduation.

*Most schools (in the US) offer vocational training for job entry. Eg., I did this, as have my kids.

*High schools offer foreign languages but I wish elementary schools would. Some do (we had to drive a bit though & then they stopped).

*I suppose it depends on the school & job - but a lot of jobs definitely have hierarchal evaluations & positions.

*I was & my kids were taught all of those things through school.


Previously I imagined the land of Cambridge & University of Edinburgh etc… was cream of the crop… the origin of all academia. But you make it sound inferior. Maybe just your area… &/or only recently? Maybe I was mistaken.
When a teacher was lying to my kids and I told them he was a liar and it affected their grade. So I printed up an order to terminate the prick and went door to door getting hundreds of signatures, many of who were high in the local church. I presented the document to the school board and they hum hawed around about the difficulty to fire and so I said well I guess I will go on TV and include you. Within 24 hours the worthless POS quit and moved to Utah to be a teacher there.

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harakim
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Re: What's your excuse for not homeschooling your children?

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Thinker wrote: September 29th, 2022, 3:39 pm
Niemand wrote: September 29th, 2022, 10:51 amFrom what I've seen it applies to both state and private schools round here…
I acknowledge there are definitely important missing aspects that should be taught in schools, but often are not. However, as you hinted at, schools do teach a lot… so I don’t see any need to dismiss them as entirely useless. Look at people who never went to school - (ie in some poor countries where schooling was a luxury) most cannot read or write & struggle a lot. Education has been found to be statistically correlated with happiness.

”… Overall, the results suggest that more educated people, on average, are happier than their less educated counterparts…” http://borisnikolaev.com/wp-content/upl ... ness_f.pdf

Sure, it isn’t perfect - but many people have access to various resources (libraries, www, etc) to supplement. Again, to suggest school is completely useless is an illogical, sweeping generalization. Most schools offer plenty of good that at least give some knowledge & skills to be able to learn more.

Re: your list (on other thread) of school failures in your area (Scotland?)…

*Most students I know in my area (US) & where I’ve lived before can read & write well & rapidly. In some pocket areas like urban Maryland, it’s not so great. But most I know of in the states I’ve lived in - are literarily competent upon high school graduation.

*Most schools (in the US) offer vocational training for job entry. Eg., I did this, as have my kids.

*High schools offer foreign languages but I wish elementary schools would. Some do (we had to drive a bit though & then they stopped).

*I suppose it depends on the school & job - but a lot of jobs definitely have hierarchal evaluations & positions.

*I was & my kids were taught all of those things through school.


Previously I imagined the land of Cambridge & University of Edinburgh etc… was cream of the crop… the origin of all academia. But you make it sound inferior. Maybe just your area… &/or only recently? Maybe I was mistaken.
It's interesting to see your opinion of homeschool in which you say:
1. Homeschool kids can't be properly socialized
2. You have to be an expert teacher to make homeschool work
3. High schools offer foreign languages and vocation

I'm going to talk about K-8 (K-9 in Utah) because I think there is evident value in high school.

1. K-9 (8 outside Utah) is mostly sit down and shut up. You do get recess. When I was in public school (To clarify, I was always in public school) I had met all of my friends at church and in my neighborhood anyway. I had friends at school in the same way I have friends at work now. They are people I associate with, laugh with and occasionally do something with. It's a pretty shallow friendship compared to the lifelong friends I made at church. How many high school friends do you still have?
My children have lots of friends and socialize well. They have kept some of their friends even though we have moved hundreds of miles away. They met these kids when they were too young for school. They are socialized fine. Most of their friends right now go to public school and they get along fine.
I think this argument is a complete strawman by people who have never actually committed to trying homeschool. I don't know what kind of a parent one would have to be to socialize their kids poorly without the help of public school. Probably the same kind of parent that would socialize them poorly with public school?

2. How much do you remember from K-8 that you learned? How much of that was useful enough to stick and to use both? Not a lot.
I think public school gives people a basic proficiency in reading and math that stays with them. That is extremely important and it's why it sticks around. As someone who could do basic math and could read before Kindergarden, I can assure you there was not much to be learned in elementary school that wasn't useless or obvious. Honestly, how many times have you had to know what a rain shadow was or the definition of a peninsula? More than none? Well, how much have your skills in the recorder come in useful? The head start you got in square dancing? That the back of your mouth tastes bitter tastes? Do you bust out those 5 paragraph essays on the reg? You could distill the important academic concepts you learned in school (aside from math and reading) into one or two easy years.

In addition to the useless stuff above, public school also helps them do what their spell checker or grammar checker can do in regards to spelling and punctuation, gives them an incorrect version of history, and neglects to teach any understanding of key skills like finances or how to stay alive or how to find a spouse. It teaches them to use a paper and pencil to do math instead of a calculator. Yet, which one are they more likely to have on them? Hmm.
When it does teach stuff it's SO SLOW. In 8th grade, the big thing was learning all the states. My daughter knew all her states at 18 months. When I moved to Utah, I was shocked to see 5th graders that couldn't read. My children learn to read better than the average Utah 5th grader in six months to a year. I spend 2 minutes a day with them on math. My son went back to public school and says he is light years ahead of the other students. And just to reiterate, they have the same public school friends they would have if they went to school. We give them extra-curricular activities and read to them and more.
We do have resources for our kids. A lot of the homeschool groups are excellent but there typically is no set schedule for football and not enough people meeting regularly for a band. So you can get that at the school if that's what you want. Most students don't participate in sports anyway and you can form more intimate, interesting bands with less children. Since the government is given money hand over fist for programs, you might as well take advantage of them if you want. In places like Utah, you have a right to access the public schools so you can access their libraries, their music programs, their sports, etc. and not attend a single class.

3. This is true. High schools do have some vocational training of varying quality. High school is where American education starts to have any credibility. Yet, community colleges also offer vocational training and it's usually pretty cheap if your student is high school age. Dedicated home school parents don't usually go the academic route though, their children will shadow an actual person doing the actual job? That's how home school parents solve the issue. It's hard to do when public school has your child during working hours, though.
Comparing foreign language learning at public school to independent study is almost laughable. There are so many language resources like Rosetta Stone and Babbel. Even then, your co-op is likely to include someone who is a native speaker and who can help your student on an individual basis. Language learning in public schools is not very good. I don't know many people who even remember much of the language they spent 2-4 years learning in high school. They can remember some words, but just living with Spanish-speaking people in my dorm in college taught me to understand conversational Spanish in two semesters.
That's kind of how I feel about all of high school. It's not customized to your student and it's going at the pace of the lowest common denominator. It's the basic version to make sure every child has a chance in society, not to help students excel at their individual talents or explore their individual interests. You have to take some subjects year after year, even if you don't have an aptitude or are not interested. It kills the passion for learning that lives in every child. They might be okay learning or like some subjects, but it's not the same passion as the 4 year old who is obsessed with butterflies for 3 months.


It might sound like a lot of work to home school. It's a bit of work for sure, but I bet it's less work than helping them with common core math! And I'd like to remind anyone reading this that I spend a total of 1-2 minutes a day on math with my kids. When the younger ones get older, I might spend more time with them. Sometimes you just have to work smarter, not harder. And my oldest was more than high school ready. His first quarter, he got straight As. The bar is just that low. Once we learned to get into co-ops, it was even easier. You can just ask other parents.

I think there are benefits to both home school and public school. The public school bar has been set so low that you could probably completely ignore teaching your child until 7th grade and by 9th grade they would be on grade level but also have a lot of life experience the other students wouldn't have. Then again, if you take advantage of the facilities and teachers of a public school, it can amplify your efforts. If you can't afford to have a parent at home, then you should probably take advantage of public schools which will keep your child safe and fed while you are away. As a bonus, they will definitely learn some things, but it will still mostly depend on how you help them as a parent. Ask any public school teacher.

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Re: What's your excuse for not homeschooling your children?

Post by Thinker »

One thing is clear: we cannot help but judge things (like homeschool & public school) by our own experiences.

My experience has been that most who are/were homeschooled are advanced in some areas & lapse in other important areas. And often - again in my experience - homeschooling involves older children being home as free nannies and are mostly taught by computers.

Obviously there are exceptions - I haven’t gotten to know all homeschool or public school situations. And again, I’d homeschool in certain circumstances… and every summer, I do homeschool besides keeping track of our kids’ learning throughput the year.

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Re: What's your excuse for not homeschooling your children?

Post by JuneBug12000 »

Rubicon wrote: September 26th, 2022, 8:50 pm
harakim wrote: September 26th, 2022, 7:53 pm
Rubicon wrote: September 24th, 2022, 12:54 pm It's not the same experience, though. Many who recognize the drawbacks to school still believe that the overall experience is better than homeschooling.
I'm also curious why you think this.
We have four children. Two of them have been valedictorians/salutatorians, and one of them is a high school junior currently (the fourth is on a mission in Austria). We could have homeschooled them, and they would have exactly the same level of knowledge and academic competency. They really didn't get any "value added" from the school system; having come from a very literary family, they have been light years ahead of their peers in school. But they had experiences (good and bad) that they simply wouldn't have had with homeschool (or with a homeschool coop or group trying to provide these).

I've also been a bishop twice, a counselor twice, and an EQP twice. My own experiences (which include bad, rough public school in Chicago) have helped me relate to and be able to help people in ways that simply wouldn't have been there if I were a product of 100% homeschool and being closed off from society like some here are advocating.

The homeschool movement (especially the radical strains of it) seem to me to be no different from the monastic movements in medieval Christianity. By seeking higher spiritual experiences through cutting themselves off and sequestering themselves, they are sorely lacking in key experiences we were sent to earth for. It's like the people who say they don't need a church to worship God; they can worship Him and feel His presence at home or hiking in the woods. They are completely missing the service and sacrifice parts of belonging to a church community --- and are no instrument at all in God's hands in bringing salvation to others.

Whenever people mention that homeschoolers they know are weird and sheltered, there are inevitable anecdotes about very accomplished, savvy, effective products of homeschooling to counteract this. The problem is that most people know too many homeschooled kids and adults for these anecdotes to have any effect. ;)
I don't buy the immerse them in Babylon to save them from Babylon.

I grew up in Babylon. It is spiritually and physically deadly. No need to sacrifice your children to the false gods of Babylon with the false hope of saving someone else's kid. Such a dumb argument.

If only Lehi had stayed in Jerusalem, Laman and Lemuel might have turned out ok because we they would have seen the long term consequences of the wicked. The family would have been destroyed along with everyone else, but they might have saved some few souls first. :roll:

Or the pilgrims? If only they had stayed in England they wouldn't have turned into such weirdos who laid the foundation for the prosperity of the entire modern world when they gave up everything comfortable and secure to come to a dangerous land, and write and sign the Mayflower Compact that led to the formation of the United States, the Constitution and the restoration of the gospel. :roll:

I don't often use sarcasm, but your ignorance, perpetuated, I assume by your own public school education, is showing. Time to expand your view and learn truth.

I was public schooled. It was atrocious. I was exposed to immorality, perversion, physical harm, and though an A student, realized as an adult I leaned only trivia in school. Nothing real or lasting.

Most of my teaches ended up in the news years later for various criminal activities. Lest you think it was the locale, I moved often as a child. I lived in the West and Midwest of the US, moving everything 6 months to a year. I did spend 4 years at the same high school.

So, I have done better for my children. They are able to interact with people of all ages. They know truth. They make choices and experience consequences. They know the trivia, but they also know God. They are prepared to provide temporarily and spiritually for their children. They are being taught to be parents. They are taught how to be wise financially.

They are respected by friends and strangers alike. They are complimented often. People ask what we are doing differently. Yes, there are lazy homeschool parents, but I would argue more lazy public school parents.

Some homeschoolers are behind, but I would argue very few public school kids are up to grade standards at this point.

Homeschoolers are also less likely to be spiritually ignorant and engage in drugs and promiscuity.

I have heard the false arguments you have made so many times. Like listening to anti's talk about the church based on hearsay. Or members of the church talk about those of other faiths without knowing them or their true beliefs personally.

So many people so sure of what they don't know.

Stay blind in Babylon if you must, but I would highly recommend keeping your ignorant opinions about things you don't know to yourself. It only removes doubt about your ignorance.

If you think I am being harsh or defensive, I will say, for a long time I tried to defend those around me who chose to public school. I tried to justify their situations and circumstances.

But after 20 years the results are consistent. The good a kid can do in public school is so small and the risk and outcome so poor, it is neglect and abuse for a parent to send their kids public school.

I have had so many LDS parents tell me about their kids problems, that are a direct result of their public school experience, and swear up and down they did everything they could to protect them. It was just meant to be: pregnancy, drugs, suicide, abuse, and general teenage behavior. They really believe that there was nothing else they could have done. And no amount of consistent proof to the contrary can change their minds.

If that was the worst if it, that would be something, but the number who lose their children spiritually is worse. Any of the current BYU threads on the topic will bear this truth out.

I can no longer lie to soothe the feeling of those around me. Public school in the USA today is the same as offering your kids to Molech. Worse than just physical death it is spiritual death and few will escape.

But, you tell yourself whatever you need to to sleep at night.

This quote below, from you, is the most ignorant claim of them all.
"They are completely missing the service and sacrifice parts of belonging to a church community --- and are no instrument at all in God's hands in bringing salvation to others. "

My children, because they were homeschooled, served with me at the local care center where I was called to teach Relief Society Wednesday mornings. They not only heard me teach lessons of truth about the gospel in that setting, they literally served as Christ.

My son, maybe 10 at the time, literally fed a sister who was unable to use her arms and feed herself. My little kids would make cards each week. They sang and snuggled the disabled and elderly. They brought light to darkness week after week with the love and lack of judgement and fear that children embody. They could not have done that at school.

We would have other homeschool families into our home to socialize. We, the mothers, visited and shared our spiritual insights. Often the children would start off playing with each other, but slowly drift in to listen and even participate in the discussions.

To hear the children, not just mine, it also my friend's children, share their insights and testimonies whether 5 or 15 was humbling. It was better than any Sunday school or seminary I attended.

I have never had anyone guess the correct age of my children once they hit 10 or older. They always assume they are much older.

This is not bragging. I can confidently say the other homeschool mom's I engaged with had the same experience.

This is not to say there aren't exceptions. But poor homeschoolers are like great public schoolers: they are the exception.

I probably caused a lot of offense with this comment. I get it. I use to be able to convince myself that what I wrote above was too harsh or judgemental or closed minded, but no more. I know it is true.

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Re: What's your excuse for not homeschooling your children?

Post by HVDC »

JuneBug12000 wrote: October 2nd, 2022, 2:28 pm
Rubicon wrote: September 26th, 2022, 8:50 pm
harakim wrote: September 26th, 2022, 7:53 pm
Rubicon wrote: September 24th, 2022, 12:54 pm It's not the same experience, though. Many who recognize the drawbacks to school still believe that the overall experience is better than homeschooling.
I'm also curious why you think this.
We have four children. Two of them have been valedictorians/salutatorians, and one of them is a high school junior currently (the fourth is on a mission in Austria). We could have homeschooled them, and they would have exactly the same level of knowledge and academic competency. They really didn't get any "value added" from the school system; having come from a very literary family, they have been light years ahead of their peers in school. But they had experiences (good and bad) that they simply wouldn't have had with homeschool (or with a homeschool coop or group trying to provide these).

I've also been a bishop twice, a counselor twice, and an EQP twice. My own experiences (which include bad, rough public school in Chicago) have helped me relate to and be able to help people in ways that simply wouldn't have been there if I were a product of 100% homeschool and being closed off from society like some here are advocating.

The homeschool movement (especially the radical strains of it) seem to me to be no different from the monastic movements in medieval Christianity. By seeking higher spiritual experiences through cutting themselves off and sequestering themselves, they are sorely lacking in key experiences we were sent to earth for. It's like the people who say they don't need a church to worship God; they can worship Him and feel His presence at home or hiking in the woods. They are completely missing the service and sacrifice parts of belonging to a church community --- and are no instrument at all in God's hands in bringing salvation to others.

Whenever people mention that homeschoolers they know are weird and sheltered, there are inevitable anecdotes about very accomplished, savvy, effective products of homeschooling to counteract this. The problem is that most people know too many homeschooled kids and adults for these anecdotes to have any effect. ;)
I don't buy the immerse them in Babylon to save them from Babylon.

I grew up in Babylon. It is spiritually and physically deadly. No need to sacrifice your children to the false gods of Babylon with the false hope of saving someone else's kid. Such a dumb argument.

If only Lehi had stayed in Jerusalem, Laman and Lemuel might have turned out ok because we they would have seen the long term consequences of the wicked. The family would have been destroyed along with everyone else, but they might have saved some few souls first. :roll:

Or the pilgrims? If only they had stayed in England they wouldn't have turned into such weirdos who laid the foundation for the prosperity of the entire modern world when they gave up everything comfortable and secure to come to a dangerous land, and write and sign the Mayflower Compact that led to the formation of the United States, the Constitution and the restoration of the gospel. :roll:

I don't often use sarcasm, but your ignorance, perpetuated, I assume by your own public school education, is showing. Time to expand your view and learn truth.

I was public schooled. It was atrocious. I was exposed to immorality, perversion, physical harm, and though an A student, realized as an adult I leaned only trivia in school. Nothing real or lasting.

Most of my teaches ended up in the news years later for various criminal activities. Lest you think it was the locale, I moved often as a child. I lived in the West and Midwest of the US, moving everything 6 months to a year. I did spend 4 years at the same high school.

So, I have done better for my children. They are able to interact with people of all ages. They know truth. They make choices and experience consequences. They know the trivia, but they also know God. They are prepared to provide temporarily and spiritually for their children. They are being taught to be parents. They are taught how to be wise financially.

They are respected by friends and strangers alike. They are complimented often. People ask what we are doing differently. Yes, there are lazy homeschool parents, but I would argue more lazy public school parents.

Some homeschoolers are behind, but I would argue very few public school kids are up to grade standards at this point.

Homeschoolers are also less likely to be spiritually ignorant and engage in drugs and promiscuity.

I have heard the false arguments you have made so many times. Like listening to anti's talk about the church based on hearsay. Or members of the church talk about those of other faiths without knowing them or their true beliefs personally.

So many people so sure of what they don't know.

Stay blind in Babylon if you must, but I would highly recommend keeping your ignorant opinions about things you don't know to yourself. It only removes doubt about your ignorance.

If you think I am being harsh or defensive, I will say, for a long time I tried to defend those around me who chose to public school. I tried to justify their situations and circumstances.

But after 20 years the results are consistent. The good a kid can do in public school is so small and the risk and outcome so poor, it is neglect and abuse for a parent to send their kids public school.

I have had so many LDS parents tell me about their kids problems, that are a direct result of their public school experience, and swear up and down they did everything they could to protect them. It was just meant to be: pregnancy, drugs, suicide, abuse, and general teenage behavior. They really believe that there was nothing else they could have done. And no amount of consistent proof to the contrary can change their minds.

If that was the worst if it, that would be something, but the number who lose their children spiritually is worse. Any of the current BYU threads on the topic will bear this truth out.

I can no longer lie to soothe the feeling of those around me. Public school in the USA today is the same as offering your kids to Molech. Worse than just physical death it is spiritual death and few will escape.

But, you tell yourself whatever you need to to sleep at night.

This quote below, from you, is the most ignorant claim of them all.
"They are completely missing the service and sacrifice parts of belonging to a church community --- and are no instrument at all in God's hands in bringing salvation to others. "

My children, because they were homeschooled, served with me at the local care center where I was called to teach Relief Society Wednesday mornings. They not only heard me teach lessons of truth about the gospel in that setting, they literally served as Christ.

My son, maybe 10 at the time, literally fed a sister who was unable to use her arms and feed herself. My little kids would make cards each week. They sang and snuggled the disabled and elderly. They brought light to darkness week after week with the love and lack of judgement and fear that children embody. They could not have done that at school.

We would have other homeschool families into our home to socialize. We, the mothers, visited and shared our spiritual insights. Often the children would start off playing with each other, but slowly drift in to listen and even participate in the discussions.

To hear the children, not just mine, it also my friend's children, share their insights and testimonies whether 5 or 15 was humbling. It was better than any Sunday school or seminary I attended.

I have never had anyone guess the correct age of my children once they hit 10 or older. They always assume they are much older.

This is not bragging. I can confidently say the other homeschool mom's I engaged with had the same experience.

This is not to say there aren't exceptions. But poor homeschoolers are like great public schoolers: they are the exception.

I probably caused a lot of offense with this comment. I get it. I use to be able to convince myself that what I wrote above was too harsh or judgemental or closed minded, but no more. I know it is true.
Shucks.

You are just one of those darn exceptions.

That's all.

The rest of the home school community.

Are just a bunch of drooling idiots.

Abused by their parents.

Who don't know nutt'n.

Like how many genders there are.

Shucks again.

And a couple of tisks too.

Shame.

LOL.

Silly people, tricks are for kids.

Not good parents.

Sir H

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Re: What's your excuse for not homeschooling your children?

Post by Thinker »

Rubicon wrote: September 26th, 2022, 8:50 pm It's not the same experience, though. Many who recognize the drawbacks to school still believe that the overall experience is better than homeschooling…

We have four children. Two of them have been valedictorians/salutatorians, and one of them is a high school junior currently (the fourth is on a mission in Austria). We could have homeschooled them, and they would have exactly the same level of knowledge and academic competency. They really didn't get any "value added" from the school system; having come from a very literary family, they have been light years ahead of their peers in school. But they had experiences (good and bad) that they simply wouldn't have had with homeschool (or with a homeschool coop or group trying to provide these).

I've also been a bishop twice, a counselor twice, and an EQP twice. My own experiences (which include bad, rough public school in Chicago) have helped me relate to and be able to help people in ways that simply wouldn't have been there if I were a product of 100% homeschool and being closed off from society like some here are advocating.

The homeschool movement (especially the radical strains of it) seem to me to be no different from the monastic movements in medieval Christianity. By seeking higher spiritual experiences through cutting themselves off and sequestering themselves, they are sorely lacking in key experiences we were sent to earth for. It's like the people who say they don't need a church to worship God; they can worship Him and feel His presence at home or hiking in the woods. They are completely missing the service and sacrifice parts of belonging to a church community --- and are no instrument at all in God's hands in bringing salvation to others.

Whenever people mention that homeschoolers they know are weird and sheltered, there are inevitable anecdotes about very accomplished, savvy, effective products of homeschooling to counteract this. The problem is that most people know too many homeschooled kids and adults for these anecdotes to have any effect. ;)
There are indeed exceptions - & each is entitled to revelation for their own children - so I wish the OP wasn’t set up in such an argumentative way. For some, homeschooling may be best - for others (ie if parents have psychological issues like mine did) it could be horrible. For me, school was a reprieve. But since it’s brought up as it is - I feel the need to show the other side of the argument. There are always more than 1.

I really like your point about being able to relate with people from various backgrounds. This is what Christ taught… he was accused of hanging out with those considered inferior. We had neighbors who homeschooled their kids - because we attended another ward for a while, their mom thought we were inactive & prevented their child from playing with our children. That really hurt one of my kids but in a way it helped him learn that some lds teachings (like associating only with members who follow cult teachings etc) are dysfunctional.

Maybe it’s comparable to developing immunity when young so disease is not as devastating when older. Getting to know many types of people when young - & ideally with parental guidance along the way - can help kids learn what they value & what they want to avoid.

Our favorite babysitter had been homeschooled (& was like a 2nd mom to her younger siblings which may have been why she was a good babysitter)… so sweet, but so sheltered. When she finally entered the world, she got with dysfunctional people who seem to control her - maybe because she never had practice dealing with different types before. Last I heard, her family still weren’t in contact with her.

Christ was not about being “closed off from society” - in the world but not of it.

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Re: What's your excuse for not homeschooling your children?

Post by JuneBug12000 »

Thinker wrote: October 2nd, 2022, 4:27 pm
Rubicon wrote: September 26th, 2022, 8:50 pm It's not the same experience, though. Many who recognize the drawbacks to school still believe that the overall experience is better than homeschooling…

We have four children. Two of them have been valedictorians/salutatorians, and one of them is a high school junior currently (the fourth is on a mission in Austria). We could have homeschooled them, and they would have exactly the same level of knowledge and academic competency. They really didn't get any "value added" from the school system; having come from a very literary family, they have been light years ahead of their peers in school. But they had experiences (good and bad) that they simply wouldn't have had with homeschool (or with a homeschool coop or group trying to provide these).

I've also been a bishop twice, a counselor twice, and an EQP twice. My own experiences (which include bad, rough public school in Chicago) have helped me relate to and be able to help people in ways that simply wouldn't have been there if I were a product of 100% homeschool and being closed off from society like some here are advocating.

The homeschool movement (especially the radical strains of it) seem to me to be no different from the monastic movements in medieval Christianity. By seeking higher spiritual experiences through cutting themselves off and sequestering themselves, they are sorely lacking in key experiences we were sent to earth for. It's like the people who say they don't need a church to worship God; they can worship Him and feel His presence at home or hiking in the woods. They are completely missing the service and sacrifice parts of belonging to a church community --- and are no instrument at all in God's hands in bringing salvation to others.

Whenever people mention that homeschoolers they know are weird and sheltered, there are inevitable anecdotes about very accomplished, savvy, effective products of homeschooling to counteract this. The problem is that most people know too many homeschooled kids and adults for these anecdotes to have any effect. ;)
There are indeed exceptions - & each is entitled to revelation for their own children - so I wish the OP wasn’t set up in such an argumentative way. For some, homeschooling may be best - for others (ie if parents have psychological issues like mine did) it could be horrible. But since it’s brought up as it is - I feel the need to show the other side of the argument. There are always more than 1.

Generally, I really like your point about being able to relate with people from various backgrounds. This is what Christ taught… he was accused of hanging out with those considered inferior. We had neighbors who homeschooled their kids - because we attended another ward for a while, their mom thought we were inactive & prevented their child from playing with our children. That really hurt one of my kids but in a way it helped him learn that some lds teachings (like associating only with members who follow cult teachings etc) are dysfunctional.

You are conflating one individuals actions with homeschoolers in general. The homeschooled I know don't hide from non Mormons. It's like the stereotype that big families use welfare. I have had so many people tell me they pay for my kids through public school. Nope. Then through welfare, food stamps, bishop or whatever. Nope. I see it more with the one to three kid families. And none of the families I know with lots of kids 8-15 with 10 kids a good average do either. We are all frugal and self reliant.

Maybe it’s comprobable to developing immunity when young so disease is not as devastating when older. Getting to know many types of people when young - & ideally with parental guidance along the way - can help kids learn what they value & what they want to avoid.

Our favorite babysitter had been homeschooled (& was like a 2nd mom to her younger siblings which may have been why she was a good babysitter)… so sweet, but so sheltered. When she finally entered the world, she got with dysfunctional people who seem to control her - maybe because she never had practice dealing with different types before.

Christ was not about being “closed off from society” - in the world but not of it.
I feel like you are still not hearing, but overlaying what I am saying with your own assumptions.

My children are not kept from those who are different or out of the world. They are introduced with parents at their side to teach them.

Just take friends for one example. We have whole families that are friends with our family. .Friends who are members, non members, and former members.

We talk daily without children about God and Christ and the world. We talk with our children and former members with their children. My kids hear their viewpoint and our. We clarify misconceptions we and they have about each other. Their children also hear both sides.

My father is an adamant anti Mormon. We engage in vigorous but friendly debates. He is sometimes stumped by our kids insights. Last time he said to my 16 year old "I haven't been challenged like that before. You made a good point."

You gave an example of an experience with a homeschooled girl. And fair enough, that is your experience.

But I can tell you we have many homeschool families in Utah and Idaho that are friends of ours that share our experiences. Perhaps it is not that we don't exist. Or even don't exist in large numbers. Perhaps it is your own prejudices that keep you from seeing and being friends with us?

We are also friends with plenty of public schoolers and mixed schoolers, usually from church..

But, even when they stay friends, my kids get tired of the public schoolers and their parents trying to sell them on public school and insulting them .

Probably something like my last post felt like to some of you. ;)

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Re: What's your excuse for not homeschooling your children?

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Re: What's your excuse for not homeschooling your children?

Post by Thinker »

Again… at what point are you going to let your kids be exposed to the real world - ugly rainbow lies and all - so they are prepared to handle it well? Never? How prepared will they be when they inevitably come across it?

Did Christ isolate from “bad influences”?
Or did he practice holding his own values despite opposition & became stronger for it - even loved everyone with a high quality of love?

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Re: What's your excuse for not homeschooling your children?

Post by FoundMyEden »

@Thinker. At what point are you going to expose your kids to the real world?

I have been in the schools for over 20 years. I have multiple kids ranging from 25-5yrs. I have homeschooled, private schooled, public schooled, and unschooled. Each to varying degrees. And each to my understanding and growth in the system that we live. What works for your family is an individual choice but Christ said to come out of the world, not stay in it.
Kids are exposed to the real world the minute they are born into it. That’s the reality… if we are we willing to go the extra mile to expose our kids to it, then that is up to us…but even if we “sheltered” our kids from the world they are still experiencing it. Who is to say that the Babylonian system is one that we should all be exposed to as an extracurricular activity? Again, my lord didn’t say to go expose yourself to it, he said to come out of it because the minute we are born, we are born into it.

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Re: What's your excuse for not homeschooling your children?

Post by Thinker »

@FoundMyEden,
I agree that to each their own & some situations call for certain things.

You mentioned something that seemed to be referring to this idea:
  • “If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.” - John 15:19
It’s a little hard to be hated when isolating yourself/your kids. There is a spiritual battle going on - it’s obvious. So, what should we do? Hide - or fight the good fight?

Another thought: What is it to be “not of the world”? Most assume it’s just to not smoke, do drugs, not go along with materialistic things & fads. And that is surely part of it. But another important part is spirituality. Eg: Why close our eyes when praying? Maybe to connect with the UNSEEN kingdom of God within. Maybe we need as much practice as we can get in learning to discern good from evil. How can we exercise those discerning muscles when hiding from opposition? Christ didn’t hide - he lived in the world - among “sinners” - yet practiced being not of the world… kept in touch with the Spirit of discernment within - probably partly through being an instrument of God in the trenches.

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Re: What's your excuse for not homeschooling your children?

Post by FoundMyEden »

Read my thoughts again Thinker. I didn’t say to go hide from the world…we are born into it. We have to live in the world…but to expose yourself to it is different.

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Re: What's your excuse for not homeschooling your children?

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I think a homeschooled kid would have to live under a rock to not be exposed to "the real world."

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Re: What's your excuse for not homeschooling your children?

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

Thinker wrote: October 3rd, 2022, 12:22 pm Again… at what point are you going to let your kids be exposed to the real world - ugly rainbow lies and all - so they are prepared to handle it well? Never? How prepared will they be when they inevitably come across it?

Did Christ isolate from “bad influences”?
Or did he practice holding his own values despite opposition & became stronger for it - even loved everyone with a high quality of love?
At what point?

That's the beauty of homeschooling. You get to decide when, where, and how. What may be appropriate for one child, may not be appropriate for another.

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