The Atonement - The Greatest Lesson in Being Celestial

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Amonhi
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Re: The Atonement - The Greatest Lesson in Being Celestial

Post by Amonhi »

Sarah wrote: September 21st, 2022, 6:44 pm
The lesson being taught by the sacrifices, the garment and ordinances is that Christ would innocently suffer and die for their sake, because they were sinful and fallen to the point of death, and indeed, the reason Christ would suffer and die was because of them. But you make it sound as if Christ did not choose to lay down his life, that he had no choice in the matter.
Christ chose to suffer. He wished he didn't have to, but since there was no other way, he chose to do it. The question is, what did he choose to suffer?

The scriptures repeatedly say he suffered for our sins. You repeatedly say he suffered for our punishments.

The scriptures point out the obvious truth that it is unjust for one man to suffer the punishments owed to another. You say that this is what Jesus did.

I'm asking you to consider what it means thatJesus didn't suffer for our punishments but for our sins.

Why is it that nowhere in the scriptures does it say he suffered punishments. You've said it several times in this thread, so it must be easy enough to say, but there is no place in scripture where the word punishment is associated with what Jesus suffered.

What did he suffer? Did he suffer God's wrath? Did God beat him up as a proxy for what God would have done to us? Did a loving God beat his own innocent son in order to not have to beat everyone else up because God needs to punish someone?

Yes, Jesus chose to suffer something, but not our punishments. He suffered for our sins.

How does someone suffer for someone else's sins without suffering the punishments? If I sinned against you, by stealing from you, you would suffer for my sins. If I sinned against you and hurt you in any way, you would have suffered for or because of my sins. If I sinned against you, then I am the one holding the whip or the knife and you are the one suffering for my actions. You are the victim and I am the sinner.

Is there anywhere in the scriptures that says Jesus suffered as the victim of sins? Not as the Sinner, but as the sinner's victims? As the sheep on the alter and not as the one holding the knife? Is there anywhere in scriptures that says that when I sin against you and hurt you that I cause him to suffer as if he were you?

Yes.
Matt. 25
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
...
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
If I hit you unprovoked, can you bear it? If so, then you have borne my sin. Did Jesus bear our sins or our punishments?
Mosiah 15
12 For these are they whose sins he has borne; these are they for whom he has died, to redeem them from their transgressions. And now, are they not his seed?
In our legal system today, when someone harms another person, the police will ask the victim, "Do you want to press Charges?" Why don't they ask the criminal/sinner if they want charges to be pressed? Because only the victim has the right to choose whether or not charges should be pressed. Only the victim can offer mercy without robbing justice. For this reason, Jesus has to become the victim of our sins. He had to suffer for our sins so that as the victim he could offer mercy/forgiveness or demand justice. The punished cannot do that. The judge cannot do that. Only the victim can offer mercy without robbing justice. Jesus therefore choose to become the victim of our sins.

Why did Adam and Eve hold the knife that killed the symbol of Jesus? Because they were the sinners and he was the victim of their sins. When you sin, you hurt people. Whatsoever ye have done to the least of these, you have done to Christ. He suffers for and bears the pains of our sins as our do our victims. He chose to suffer at your hand because that is the only way he can offer us forgiveness.

The word "for" means "because of". (Dictionary) Our victims are wounded because of/for our transgressions, they are bruised because of/for our iniquities.
Mosiah 14
5 But he was wounded for (because of) our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
The verse above says that with his stripes we are healed. I'm asking you who is holding the whip that is striping him? Who is holding the knife that is killing him on the alter? Who is able to forgive the wicked? The person holding the knife or the person being killed? If Jesus wanted to be able to forgive others, would he need to take the place of the one holding the knife or the one being killed? Which of the two roles would require him to be completely innocent?
He chose to do what he did, so he received the consequence of his choice, and he receives the reward.
If I abused my wife and she stayed with me because she loved me and I said this about her... It's called victim blaming. Yes, he chose it because he loved us and there was no other way. Yes, he received the consequences of his choice and suffered willingly without force. Yes, he gained the right to offer us mercy. But we still need to put down the knife. We still need to stop hurting him and making him suffer by our actions. We need to realize that what we do to others we are doing to him. We need to do good to others which in turn means we are doing good to him. Just as he suffers as the victim of our sins, he is relieved from his suffering by our righteousness. When we do good to others, we are doing good to him. When we comfort others, we are comforting him.

When we sin, we are holding the knife that is killing Christ. Put down the knife. Stop killing Christ. Stop hurting your fellow man. Christ suffered to take upon himself our sins, not our punishments. Only the victim can offer forgiveness without robing justice. Jesus didn't suffer the pains of our punishments, he suffered the pains of our sins.
"Now there is not any man, [animal, creature, or even God], that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother [or any other man, animal, creature, or God]? I say unto you, Nay.
12 But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world.” - Alma 34:11-12
Peace,
Amonhi

Amonhi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4650

Re: The Atonement - The Greatest Lesson in Being Celestial

Post by Amonhi »

Sarah wrote: September 21st, 2022, 6:47 pm How do YOU take up your cross?
Good question. First off, realize that the Father sheds forth the Holy Spirit of Promise to all who are JUST, and true. These alone are the Celestial.
D&C 76
53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.
54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.
What happens to those who are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise who are just within themselves? Do they allow Christ to suffer and die for them or do they suffer and die themselves?
D&C 132
26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.
27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.
Why are they being destroyed in the flesh and delivered to the buffetings of Satan? Aren't they the righteous whom God sealed up to exaltation? Didn't Jesus suffer death and hell (the punishment of the sinner) for them? Why would they suffer death and hell and then be raised up to their exaltation? Are they taking up their own cross or allowing Jesus to suffer on the cross for them?

Peace,
Amonhi

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Sarah
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Posts: 6702

Re: The Atonement - The Greatest Lesson in Being Celestial

Post by Sarah »

Amonhi wrote: September 22nd, 2022, 9:15 am
Sarah wrote: September 21st, 2022, 6:44 pm
The lesson being taught by the sacrifices, the garment and ordinances is that Christ would innocently suffer and die for their sake, because they were sinful and fallen to the point of death, and indeed, the reason Christ would suffer and die was because of them. But you make it sound as if Christ did not choose to lay down his life, that he had no choice in the matter.
Christ chose to suffer. He wished he didn't have to, but since there was no other way, he chose to do it. The question is, what did he choose to suffer?

The scriptures repeatedly say he suffered for our sins. You repeatedly say he suffered for our punishments.

The scriptures point out the obvious truth that it is unjust for one man to suffer the punishments owed to another. You say that this is what Jesus did.

I'm asking you to consider what it means thatJesus didn't suffer for our punishments but for our sins.

Why is it that nowhere in the scriptures does it say he suffered punishments. You've said it several times in this thread, so it must be easy enough to say, but there is no place in scripture where the word punishment is associated with what Jesus suffered.

What did he suffer? Did he suffer God's wrath? Did God beat him up as a proxy for what God would have done to us? Did a loving God beat his own innocent son in order to not have to beat everyone else up because God needs to punish someone?

Yes, Jesus chose to suffer something, but not our punishments. He suffered for our sins.

How does someone suffer for someone else's sins without suffering the punishments? If I sinned against you, by stealing from you, you would suffer for my sins. If I sinned against you and hurt you in any way, you would have suffered for or because of my sins. If I sinned against you, then I am the one holding the whip or the knife and you are the one suffering for my actions. You are the victim and I am the sinner.

Is there anywhere in the scriptures that says Jesus suffered as the victim of sins? Not as the Sinner, but as the sinner's victims? As the sheep on the alter and not as the one holding the knife? Is there anywhere in scriptures that says that when I sin against you and hurt you that I cause him to suffer as if he were you?

Yes.
Matt. 25
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
...
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
If I hit you unprovoked, can you bear it? If so, then you have borne my sin. Did Jesus bear our sins or our punishments?
Mosiah 15
12 For these are they whose sins he has borne; these are they for whom he has died, to redeem them from their transgressions. And now, are they not his seed?
In our legal system today, when someone harms another person, the police will ask the victim, "Do you want to press Charges?" Why don't they ask the criminal/sinner if they want charges to be pressed? Because only the victim has the right to choose whether or not charges should be pressed. Only the victim can offer mercy without robbing justice. For this reason, Jesus has to become the victim of our sins. He had to suffer for our sins so that as the victim he could offer mercy/forgiveness or demand justice. The punished cannot do that. The judge cannot do that. Only the victim can offer mercy without robbing justice. Jesus therefore choose to become the victim of our sins.

Why did Adam and Eve hold the knife that killed the symbol of Jesus? Because they were the sinners and he was the victim of their sins. When you sin, you hurt people. Whatsoever ye have done to the least of these, you have done to Christ. He suffers for and bears the pains of our sins as our do our victims. He chose to suffer at your hand because that is the only way he can offer us forgiveness.

The word "for" means "because of". (Dictionary) Our victims are wounded because of/for our transgressions, they are bruised because of/for our iniquities.
Mosiah 14
5 But he was wounded for (because of) our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
The verse above says that with his stripes we are healed. I'm asking you who is holding the whip that is striping him? Who is holding the knife that is killing him on the alter? Who is able to forgive the wicked? The person holding the knife or the person being killed? If Jesus wanted to be able to forgive others, would he need to take the place of the one holding the knife or the one being killed? Which of the two roles would require him to be completely innocent?
He chose to do what he did, so he received the consequence of his choice, and he receives the reward.
If I abused my wife and she stayed with me because she loved me and I said this about her... It's called victim blaming. Yes, he chose it because he loved us and there was no other way. Yes, he received the consequences of his choice and suffered willingly without force. Yes, he gained the right to offer us mercy. But we still need to put down the knife. We still need to stop hurting him and making him suffer by our actions. We need to realize that what we do to others we are doing to him. We need to do good to others which in turn means we are doing good to him. Just as he suffers as the victim of our sins, he is relieved from his suffering by our righteousness. When we do good to others, we are doing good to him. When we comfort others, we are comforting him.

When we sin, we are holding the knife that is killing Christ. Put down the knife. Stop killing Christ. Stop hurting your fellow man. Christ suffered to take upon himself our sins, not our punishments. Only the victim can offer forgiveness without robing justice. Jesus didn't suffer the pains of our punishments, he suffered the pains of our sins.
"Now there is not any man, [animal, creature, or even God], that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother [or any other man, animal, creature, or God]? I say unto you, Nay.
12 But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world.” - Alma 34:11-12
Peace,
Amonhi
Well, I believe this. I believe that he suffered the consequences of our sins. He became the victim, so like I said in my other post, he now has the right to extend mercy to the accused, because it is the victim that has that right. I too believe that we should stop sinning as it only hurts others and Christ when we sin. So yes, repent, keep his commandments, and stop sinning just as he has asked us to do. An appointed Savior had to die as well, to become the victim in the fullest sense from transgression of Adam and Eve and all of mankind being fallen man.
Last edited by Sarah on September 22nd, 2022, 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Sarah
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6702

Re: The Atonement - The Greatest Lesson in Being Celestial

Post by Sarah »

Amonhi wrote: September 22nd, 2022, 9:27 am
Sarah wrote: September 21st, 2022, 6:47 pm How do YOU take up your cross?
Good question. First off, realize that the Father sheds forth the Holy Spirit of Promise to all who are JUST, and true. These alone are the Celestial.
D&C 76
53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.
54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.
What happens to those who are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise who are just within themselves? Do they allow Christ to suffer and die for them or do they suffer and die themselves?
D&C 132
26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.
27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.
Why are they being destroyed in the flesh and delivered to the buffetings of Satan? Aren't they the righteous whom God sealed up to exaltation? Didn't Jesus suffer death and hell (the punishment of the sinner) for them? Why would they suffer death and hell and then be raised up to their exaltation? Are they taking up their own cross or allowing Jesus to suffer on the cross for them?

Peace,
Amonhi
Whether one has been sealed by the Spirit or not, if you don't repent of your sins, you will face the consequences of those sins on this earth or hereafter. Christ becoming the victim of our actions, has the ability now to forgive us and not hand out the punishment in his mercy, but that is only if we repent and come unto him with a broken heart and contrite spirit, showing that we no longer are going to harm others or ourselves with our actions.

The sin of assenting to the death of Christ, in my mind, has to do with your heart, and symbolizes if you love him or hate him. Those who hated him killed him. Likewise, those who hate him would want to crucify him again. It wasn't those who wanted a victim for their mistakes who killed our Lord. Anyone who loved Christ and believed in him, would not be calling for his death then or now. So, you really didn't answer my question about taking up your cross. From your post, I guess now I should be asking, "how do YOU not allow Jesus to suffer for your sake?"

Amonhi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4650

Re: The Atonement - The Greatest Lesson in Being Celestial

Post by Amonhi »

Sarah wrote: September 22nd, 2022, 10:38 am
Amonhi wrote: September 22nd, 2022, 9:27 am
Sarah wrote: September 21st, 2022, 6:47 pm How do YOU take up your cross?
Good question. First off, realize that the Father sheds forth the Holy Spirit of Promise to all who are JUST, and true. These alone are the Celestial.
D&C 76
53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.
54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.
What happens to those who are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise who are just within themselves? Do they allow Christ to suffer and die for them or do they suffer and die themselves?
D&C 132
26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.
27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.
Why are they being destroyed in the flesh and delivered to the buffetings of Satan? Aren't they the righteous whom God sealed up to exaltation? Didn't Jesus suffer death and hell (the punishment of the sinner) for them? Why would they suffer death and hell and then be raised up to their exaltation? Are they taking up their own cross or allowing Jesus to suffer on the cross for them?

Peace,
Amonhi
Whether one has been sealed by the Spirit or not, if you don't repent of your sins, you will face the consequences of those sins on this earth or hereafter. Christ becoming the victim of our actions, has the ability now to forgive us and not hand out the punishment in his mercy, but that is only if we repent and come unto him with a broken heart and contrite spirit, showing that we no longer are going to harm others or ourselves with our actions.
There comes a time in our progression process when there is no more sacrifice for sin. At some point after we have been forgiven of our sins, we lose the option of a Savior.
Heb. 10
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
...
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
I promise that those who have their calling and election made sure have received the remission of their sins and have His laws put into their hearts. For many of them, there is no more offering for sin. This concept that teaches there is an end to repentance and forgiveness is repeated a few times in the scriptures, like here:
Heb. 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
There is a lot to unpack in that topic, but the point is that Jesus said, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." What happens when we know what the spirit and hear it clearly and we have the knowledge, ability and power to not do evil so there is no excuse for us but we love the evil and so do it anyway? There remains no more sacrifice for sin. This doesn't mean that we have to be full out sons of perdition. It just means that at some point, there remains no sacrifice for sin and we must take up our own cross.
The sin of assenting to the death of Christ, in my mind, has to do with your heart, and symbolizes if you love him or hate him. Those who hated him killed him. Likewise, those who hate him would want to crucify him again.
I think the Christian preacher who cried while acknowledging that he would drive the nails himself loved Jesus, but he loved loved his family more because he would go to hell for killing Christ in order to save his family. I pointed out to him the fact that if they were willing to allow the innocent to suffer for them that they are murders as much as he was for being willing to kill Christ based on the principles in the OP. He realized that his view of Christianity made all Christians murders of Christ and then he said that if he knew who I was, he would kill me to prevent that from being taught since in his view it destroyed Christianity.

When Jesus spoke to us directly and taught us this principle, he basically said that the Atonement as taught by most churches today makes people murders who are willing to kill to save themselves.
It wasn't those who wanted a victim for their mistakes who killed our Lord.
The Chief Priest prophesied and said that Jesus must die to save not only Israel, but all the son's of God. He and the elders plotted to kill him to save people.
Anyone who loved Christ and believed in him, would not be calling for his death then or now.
Yes, in theory.
So, you really didn't answer my question about taking up your cross. From your post, I guess now I should be asking, "how do YOU not allow Jesus to suffer for your sake?"
Did I answer this in a previous post?

Peace,
Amonhi

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abijah
pleb in zion
Posts: 2577

Re: The Atonement - The Greatest Lesson in Being Celestial

Post by abijah »

Genesis 2
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

zionbuilder
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Posts: 140

Re: The Atonement - The Greatest Lesson in Being Celestial

Post by zionbuilder »

"In maleficio ratihabitio mandato comparatur. = He who ratifies a bad action is considered as having ordered it.
Qui non obstat quod obstare potest facere videtur. = He who does not prevent what he can, seems to commit the thing."


Amonhi....why did Christ rebuke Peter when he said far be it from thee Lord, after teaching he should suffer, die and then be raised from the dead?

I guess a similar question would be when Peter tried to defend him from those who were seizing him....was it because he used violence and not faith?

Amonhi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4650

Re: The Atonement - The Greatest Lesson in Being Celestial

Post by Amonhi »

abijah wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 11:20 pm Genesis 2
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
The New Testament was written in Greek. The verse in question used the Greek word for "soul" which is "psychē" which is defined as:
the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)

the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life

the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)
To lose one's soul means more than to lose one's life. In the context of the verse we see that it is not about dying in the flesh, but loosing an eternal reward which is based who we are in our as a spiritual being and not whether or not we are alive/breathing.

The Old Testament verse you quoted was written in Hebrew and the word "soul" you quoted is the Hebrew word, "nep̄eš" (strong's concordance) which means to become a physically living/breathing creature. This is very well detailed in the link you provided for the word "soul" using the spelling "nepesh".
Our Hebrew noun נפש (nepesh) does not denote a ghostly, insubstantial element of a human individual, but rather the condition of being alive. Something that is alive does not have a nepesh, but is a nepesh. And because a nepesh is something living, it covers humans (Genesis 2:7), animals (Genesis 1:21, 1:24) and even the Lord himself (Isaiah 42:1, Jeremiah 6:8).
...
A nepesh doesn't die, only the body dies, but that doesn't mean that the nepesh goes on a journey through the afterlife, as many worldviews contemporary with the Hebrews' dictated. A 'dead breather' (Numbers 6:6, 9:6-10, Numbers 19:11) is simply an ex-breather.
The word "psychē" that is translated to the words "Soul" and "life" as used in by the Lord in Matt16:24-26 and Mark 8:34-37 is a reference to the eternal soul which "the vital force which animates the body" and "can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life" and "the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)".

So, when Jesus said that we need to pick up our own cross and follow him, so that we don't lose our soul, it means that understanding and applying his words has spiritual, eternal implications on that part of us that is able to "secure eternal blessedness", or lose it. Not that we might merely waste our time alive on less important things.

Peace,
Amonhi

Amonhi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4650

Re: The Atonement - The Greatest Lesson in Being Celestial

Post by Amonhi »

zionbuilder wrote: September 25th, 2022, 6:27 pm "In maleficio ratihabitio mandato comparatur. = He who ratifies a bad action is considered as having ordered it.
Qui non obstat quod obstare potest facere videtur. = He who does not prevent what he can, seems to commit the thing."


Amonhi....why did Christ rebuke Peter when he said far be it from thee Lord, after teaching he should suffer, die and then be raised from the dead?
Excellent question. Why does God allow evil to happen? By allowing it, does He ratify, sanction, support and agree to it? I'm reminded of Alma and Amulek who were forced to watch the women and children die in the fire. Amulek wanted to use the power of God to save them, but Alma called out that he wanted to also but the spirit constrained him.
Alma 14
10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene? Therefore let us stretch forth our hands, and exercise the power of God which is in us, and save them from the flames.
11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day.
Notice that Alma says "he (the Lord) doth suffer that they do this thing". The Lord suffered, but allowed it. Just as the Lord suffers when we sin against others, but allows it. If the Lord did not allow any wicked, then we would not have agency and could not be judged.

The atonement was the pivotal moment in which the wicked were able to be separated from the righteous. Without the atonement, there were only wicked. In the day of atonement ordinances there are two essential figures/goats that are required to make the atonement work. Jehovah and Azazel/The Scapegoat. Jehovah was killed in the presence of Azazel and his blood was sprinkled on the mercy seat. At no time in the ordinance was he punished, responsible or even associated with the sins of the people. After Jehovah was killed, the high priest grabbed the goat/figure Azazel by the horns and pronounced on his head all the sins of the people that year, placing the sin and responsibility for the sin, and therefore the punishment on his head. (Lev.16:7-10). This can be done because he was responsible for teaching, tempting and encouraging the sinful acts by those who sinned ignorantly and later truly repented showing that it wasn't in their hearts to do evil, (The same principle is called out in D&C 68:25).

But, the sins had to be allowed or the case against Azazel and his sons, (the wicked), could not have been made. While God teaches and preaches against evil, showing his lack of support for evil, He still allows it. Jesus was not telling Paul to have a change of heart, saying that Peter should desire and seek to kill Jesus too. He was saying get aligned with God and rather than fighting to save my life, pick up your cross and die with me. This paints the picture we sometimes see in movies where a great evil is about to be done against an innocent person and someone else who is honest and worthy steps forward and stands next to the innocent person and says, if you are going to kill them, then kill me too. Then another person steps forward and says the same thing, until all the followers of Christ stand with him ready to be crucified unjustly.

That is what we are supposed to do. We are not supposed to stop his death with swords, but by joining him. If you are going to kill the innocent, then put me to death to. If we do not up for and with the innocent who are being hurt unjustly, then we will lose our soul. If a black person was being beaten by the KKK for being black, then I would stand up and declare this is wrong knowing that they would beat me too. That is the only way to remain innocent of his blood.

For this reason, immediately in response to Peter saying, "far be it from thee Lord", the Lord said, "no, take up your cross and follow me.
Matt 16
21 ¶ From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
24 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
I guess a similar question would be when Peter tried to defend him from those who were seizing him....was it because he used violence and not faith?
Peter should have said, "This is wrong. Therefore, take me too." And, when Peter was asked 3 times if he was Jesus friend, he should not have denied it. He should have said, "Yes, I am and I stand with him even in the threat of death." All of the people he taught and healed should have stood with him, even in the threat of death. Not standing ready to use the tools and principles of evil, (swords, war, fighting), to save him, but to use the tools of righteousness to save him, and if not save him, then die with him. If Jesus supported the means of war to do good, then he would not have been innocent since the goal is just as important as the means by which we obtain the goal. We cannot accomplish the goal of goodness using the tools of evil.

I stand by Christ. If you're going to kill him, then kill me too.

Peace,
Amonhi

onefour1
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1596

Re: The Atonement - The Greatest Lesson in Being Celestial

Post by onefour1 »

According to Jesus, no man killed him.

John 10:17-18
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

True, that it was certainly their intent to do so, but according to Jesus, "no man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself". Evidently, when Jesus said, "Father, into thy hands, I commend my spirit", that it was then that Jesus laid down his life of himself.

Luke 23:46
46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

I believe that since we have all fallen short of the glory of God, that it is just that none of us be allowed back into the presence of God. Justice demands that we receive the punishment for our sins. That would be the just recompense for our sins. But justice must also look at the case of Jesus Christ who was a lamb without blemish. Jesus had life within himself to lay down his life and to take it again. What is the recompense to Jesus who did no sin but suffered to the extent of all mankind's sins? Justice also requires that Jesus be recompensed for all the injustice that was done unto him. Not only for the injustice but to the extent of the injustice. He deserved none of the punishment that came upon him. Suffering for the sins of all mankind deserved a recompense to the extent of all that suffering. What was his recompense? His recompense was that he was given the right to forgive sin upon those who repent and forsake their sins. This was his just recompense for all the suffering he bore. So it became the just recompense for Christ to bring about the mercy on the unjust.

1 Peter 3:18
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

So in this scenario, does mercy rob justice? No. It was just to grant the Christ a recompense for all the pain and suffering he bore. Jesus was not a fallen man and was not in need of mercy or redemption. His recompense was to bring about the bowels of mercy and have it satisfy the demands of justice. Man is required to repent. If man does not repent, then mercy would rob justice. But when we repent and forsake our sins, then the mercy of Jesus upon the repentant sinner is just as his recompense for the injustice he bore. I believe God the Father knew in advance that if he sent a Savior to the world that Satan would seek to destroy him. But Jesus being a sinless being with life in himself could never be destroyed by Satan. But the Father knew that Jesus would have to go through the buffetings of Satan unjustly to merit the recompense of granting forgiveness of sin to the repentant sinner. This mortal life is all temporary but to save his children from the demands of justice, mercy can and does appease those demands when mankind repents and forsakes his sins and Jesus gets his recompense to grant the mercy as a recompense for his unjust pain and suffering. Jesus was the infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice that was required.

Doctrine and Covenants 45:3-5
3 Listen to him who is the advocate with the Father, who is pleading your cause before him—
4 Saying: Father, behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, in whom thou wast well pleased; behold the blood of thy Son which was shed, the blood of him whom thou gavest that thyself might be glorified;
5 Wherefore, Father, spare these my brethren that believe on my name, that they may come unto me and have everlasting life.

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