Christ chose to suffer. He wished he didn't have to, but since there was no other way, he chose to do it. The question is, what did he choose to suffer?Sarah wrote: ↑September 21st, 2022, 6:44 pm
The lesson being taught by the sacrifices, the garment and ordinances is that Christ would innocently suffer and die for their sake, because they were sinful and fallen to the point of death, and indeed, the reason Christ would suffer and die was because of them. But you make it sound as if Christ did not choose to lay down his life, that he had no choice in the matter.
The scriptures repeatedly say he suffered for our sins. You repeatedly say he suffered for our punishments.
The scriptures point out the obvious truth that it is unjust for one man to suffer the punishments owed to another. You say that this is what Jesus did.
I'm asking you to consider what it means thatJesus didn't suffer for our punishments but for our sins.
Why is it that nowhere in the scriptures does it say he suffered punishments. You've said it several times in this thread, so it must be easy enough to say, but there is no place in scripture where the word punishment is associated with what Jesus suffered.
What did he suffer? Did he suffer God's wrath? Did God beat him up as a proxy for what God would have done to us? Did a loving God beat his own innocent son in order to not have to beat everyone else up because God needs to punish someone?
Yes, Jesus chose to suffer something, but not our punishments. He suffered for our sins.
How does someone suffer for someone else's sins without suffering the punishments? If I sinned against you, by stealing from you, you would suffer for my sins. If I sinned against you and hurt you in any way, you would have suffered for or because of my sins. If I sinned against you, then I am the one holding the whip or the knife and you are the one suffering for my actions. You are the victim and I am the sinner.
Is there anywhere in the scriptures that says Jesus suffered as the victim of sins? Not as the Sinner, but as the sinner's victims? As the sheep on the alter and not as the one holding the knife? Is there anywhere in scriptures that says that when I sin against you and hurt you that I cause him to suffer as if he were you?
Yes.
If I hit you unprovoked, can you bear it? If so, then you have borne my sin. Did Jesus bear our sins or our punishments?Matt. 25
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
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45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
In our legal system today, when someone harms another person, the police will ask the victim, "Do you want to press Charges?" Why don't they ask the criminal/sinner if they want charges to be pressed? Because only the victim has the right to choose whether or not charges should be pressed. Only the victim can offer mercy without robbing justice. For this reason, Jesus has to become the victim of our sins. He had to suffer for our sins so that as the victim he could offer mercy/forgiveness or demand justice. The punished cannot do that. The judge cannot do that. Only the victim can offer mercy without robbing justice. Jesus therefore choose to become the victim of our sins.Mosiah 15
12 For these are they whose sins he has borne; these are they for whom he has died, to redeem them from their transgressions. And now, are they not his seed?
Why did Adam and Eve hold the knife that killed the symbol of Jesus? Because they were the sinners and he was the victim of their sins. When you sin, you hurt people. Whatsoever ye have done to the least of these, you have done to Christ. He suffers for and bears the pains of our sins as our do our victims. He chose to suffer at your hand because that is the only way he can offer us forgiveness.
The word "for" means "because of". (Dictionary) Our victims are wounded because of/for our transgressions, they are bruised because of/for our iniquities.
The verse above says that with his stripes we are healed. I'm asking you who is holding the whip that is striping him? Who is holding the knife that is killing him on the alter? Who is able to forgive the wicked? The person holding the knife or the person being killed? If Jesus wanted to be able to forgive others, would he need to take the place of the one holding the knife or the one being killed? Which of the two roles would require him to be completely innocent?Mosiah 14
5 But he was wounded for (because of) our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
If I abused my wife and she stayed with me because she loved me and I said this about her... It's called victim blaming. Yes, he chose it because he loved us and there was no other way. Yes, he received the consequences of his choice and suffered willingly without force. Yes, he gained the right to offer us mercy. But we still need to put down the knife. We still need to stop hurting him and making him suffer by our actions. We need to realize that what we do to others we are doing to him. We need to do good to others which in turn means we are doing good to him. Just as he suffers as the victim of our sins, he is relieved from his suffering by our righteousness. When we do good to others, we are doing good to him. When we comfort others, we are comforting him.He chose to do what he did, so he received the consequence of his choice, and he receives the reward.
When we sin, we are holding the knife that is killing Christ. Put down the knife. Stop killing Christ. Stop hurting your fellow man. Christ suffered to take upon himself our sins, not our punishments. Only the victim can offer forgiveness without robing justice. Jesus didn't suffer the pains of our punishments, he suffered the pains of our sins.
Peace,"Now there is not any man, [animal, creature, or even God], that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother [or any other man, animal, creature, or God]? I say unto you, Nay.
12 But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world.” - Alma 34:11-12
Amonhi