Renlund uses words of Moroni to convince a man to take pharmaceuticals

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Renlund uses words of Moroni to convince a man to take pharmaceuticals

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

FrankOne wrote: September 21st, 2022, 3:40 pm It's noteworthy that the baptism ordinance does not state that the person is being baptized into any 'church.'

An organization is just that. The church are the people that repent and go to Christ for their salvation. They don't go to "church" for their salvation. We are the church.
Well... kind of. The Nephites asked by what name they should be called. Christ was quite specific about his doctrine.

We just have to deal with the fact that Moroni was talking about a post-restoration era in these verses of Mormon 8:

36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God?

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Fred
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Re: Renlund uses words of Moroni to convince a man to take pharmaceuticals

Post by Fred »

Being There wrote: September 21st, 2022, 3:08 pm
Obeone wrote: September 19th, 2022, 11:42 pm
Being There wrote: September 19th, 2022, 6:58 pm
Obeone wrote: September 18th, 2022, 10:04 pm Your position is completely self-contradictory. You quote the Book of Mormon, yet accuse the Prophet through who God brought it forward as a fallen prophet! Breathtaking nonsense!
lol.
talk about Breathtaking nonsense.

Just because God used Joseph Smith - to bring the BoM forward,
that doesn't mean that he's not a fallen prophet;
and that he didn't still possibly fail miserably in his personal life,
or in his responsibilities as a prophet.
Just like failing to establish Zion - as the Lord commanded.
Joseph Smith ultimately laid down his life for the redemption of Zion. He failed primarily because the church would not listen to the Lord enough.

But he will succeed in 8 years.

Then you will eat your words, if you survive.

Either way, you will be proven shamefully wrong when Joseph is resurrected within 6 years.

Joseph is one of the 7 heads of dispensations in the book of Revelation (the seven trumpets John spoke of), and Joseph Smith is one of the best people who ever lived in this world.
D&C 122
1 The ends of the earth shall inquire after thy name, and fools shall have thee in derision, and hell shall rage against thee;
2 While the pure in heart, and the wise, and the noble, and the virtuous, shall seek counsel, and authority, and blessings constantly from under thy hand.
3 And thy people shall never be turned against thee by the testimony of traitors.
4 And although their influence shall cast thee into trouble, and into bars and walls, thou shalt be had in honor; and but for a small moment and thy voice shall be more terrible in the midst of thine enemies than the fierce lion, because of thy righteousness; and thy God shall stand by thee forever and ever.
Read the whole section 122. You might learn something.
WHERE do you even come up with all this stuff.
Whoever it is that comes up with all this sure has an imagination.

and as far as the seven trumpets in the seventh seal in Revelation -
these are judgements that will be poured out during the tribulation period;
and has NOTHING to do with JS.
SMH

"The seven trumpets are described in Revelation 8:6–9:19 and 11:15–19.
The seven trumpets are the “contents” of the seventh seal judgment,
in that the seventh seal summons the angels who sound the trumpets (Revelation 8:1–5).
The judgments heralded by the seven trumpets will take place during the tribulation period in the end times.

The first trumpet. When the first angel sounds his trumpet, the world experiences “hail and fire mixed with blood” (Revelation 8:7). One third of the world’s trees are burned up in this plague, and all the grass is consumed. This judgment bears some similarities to the seventh plague in Egypt (see Exodus 9:23–24).

The second trumpet. In heaven, a second angel sounds a trumpet. The result is that “something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea” (Revelation 8:8). A third of the sea turns to blood, a third of the ships sink, and a third of ocean life dies (verse 9). This judgment is similar in some ways to the first plague in Egypt (see Exodus 7:20–21).

The third trumpet. The third trumpet judgment is like the second, except it affects the world’s freshwater lakes and rivers instead of the oceans. Specifically, “a great star, blazing like a torch” falls from the sky and poisons a third of the water supply (Revelation 8:10). This star is given the name Wormwood, and many people die (verse 11). In botany, wormwood (Artemisia absinthium) is a shrub-like plant noted for its extreme bitterness and poisonous properties.

The fourth trumpet. The fourth of the seven trumpets brings about changes in the heavens. “A third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night” (Revelation 8:12).

Following the fourth trumpet judgment, John notes a special warning that comes from an eagle flying through the air. This eagle cries out with a loud voice, saying, “Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels” (Revelation 8:13). For this reason, the fifth, sixth, and seventh trumpets are referred to as the “three woes.”

The fifth trumpet. The fifth trumpet (and the first woe) results in a terrifying plague of “demonic locusts” that attack and torture the unsaved for five months (Revelation 9:1–11). The plague begins with a “star” falling from heaven. This star is most likely a fallen angel, as he is given “the key to the shaft of the Abyss” (verse 1). He opens the Abyss, releasing a horde of “locusts” with “power like that of scorpions” (verse 3). The locusts do not touch the plant life of earth; rather, they head straight for “those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads” (verse 4). For five months, these locusts torment people, whose agony is so great that they will wish to die, “but death will elude them” (verse 6). The locusts are not allowed to kill anyone, only to torture them.

These demonic “locusts” have a “king,” who is the angel of the Abyss (Revelation 9:11). In Hebrew his name is Abaddon, and in Greek it’s Apollyon, meaning “Destroyer.” The locusts themselves are described in unusual terms: they look like “horses prepared for battle” (verse 7). They wear something like “crowns of gold,” and their faces are vaguely human (verse 7). They have hair “like women’s hair” and teeth “like lions’ teeth” (verse 8). They have something like iron breastplates, and their wings sound like “the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle” (verse 9). Like scorpions, they have stings in their tails (verse 10). This description has prompted many different interpretations: is this a vision of helicopters, of barbarian warriors, of a satanically empowered army, or of actual creatures from the pit of hell? We won’t know for sure until it happens.

The sixth trumpet. The sixth trumpet (and the second woe) involves the onslaught of another demonic horde (Revelation 9:12–21). Once the sixth trumpet sounds, a voice from the altar of God calls for the release of “the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates” (verse 14). These four angels had been kept in captivity for just this purpose: to wreak destruction during the tribulation (verse 15). These four wicked angels lead a supernatural cavalry of thousands upon thousands to kill a third of humanity (verse 16). The riders have breastplates of “fiery red, dark blue, and yellow” (verse 17). Their horses have “the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur,” and “their tails were like snakes” (verses 18–19). They kill with their mouths and with their tails.

Despite the severity and horror of these plagues, the survivors on earth still refuse to repent. They continue in their idolatry, their murder, their sorcery, their sexual immorality, and their theft (Revelation 9:20–21).

Following the sixth trumpet judgment is a literary interlude. John sees an angel descend from heaven with a little scroll in his hand. A promise is given that “the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet” (Revelation 10:7), and John is told that he must prophesy some more (verse 11). Next comes a description of the two witnesses who will preach in Jerusalem and perform miracles before they are murdered. God will then raise them back to life and take them to heaven (Revelation 11:1–13).

The seventh trumpet. The seventh trumpet (and the third woe) sounds, and immediately there are loud voices in heaven saying,
“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever” (Revelation 11:15).
The twenty-four elders say, “The time has come for . . . destroying those who destroy the earth” (verse 18). Obviously, God is about to wrap things up once and for all. At the sound of the seventh trumpet, the temple of God is opened in heaven, and “within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm” (verse 19).

Thus end the seven trumpet judgments. All is set for the seven angels with the seven bowls of God’s wrath. These angels stand inside the now-open temple, ready to step forward and bring the final judgments on earth (Revelation 15).

end quote
Speaking of two witnesses, this guy does not believe they will come from Salt Lake.

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Being There
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Re: Renlund uses words of Moroni to convince a man to take pharmaceuticals

Post by Being There »

Jason wrote: September 19th, 2022, 10:30 pm
Being There wrote: September 19th, 2022, 6:58 pm
Obeone wrote: September 18th, 2022, 10:04 pm
Being There wrote: September 18th, 2022, 8:17 pm

another one - who doesn't know the scriptures -
and who is even blind to the signs of the times,
and blind to a church that has become corrupt and fallen into apostasy.

It WAS - the Lord's church - until it was polluted and corrupted by men - (starting with Joseph Smith)
and fell into apostasy - just as Isaiah 1:4 says.

EVERYTHING IN THE BOOK OF ISAIAH IS SPEAKING TO THE LORD'S END-TIME PEOPLE -
(US - OUR CORRUPT CHURCH TODAY.)

The church has completely fallen - years ago. and "have lapsed into apostasy."
The first Chapter of Isaiah verse 4 reveals that.

4 Alas, a nation astray, a people weighed down by sin, the offspring of wrongdoers, perverse children:
they have forsaken Jehovah, they have spurned the Holy One of Israel,
they have lapsed into APOSTASY.

From addressing his people personally as “Israel . . . my people” (v 3), Jehovah now addresses them impersonally as “a nation,” signifying their alienated state. Additionally, a regression occurs from his people’s simply going “astray” to their burdening themselves with “sin,” which, over time, ends in outright “wrongdoing.” That occurs collectively and generationally. The “offspring of wrongdoers” turn into “perverse children,” meaning that the rising generation has by now become thoroughly corrupt. “Forsaking” Jehovah and “spurning” him finally become conscious and deliberate acts.

The Holy One of Israel. The title of “Holy One,” together with “Valiant One” (v 24) designates Israel’s God more than thirty times in the Book of Isaiah. In this case, it contrasts Jehovah’s holiness with his people’s unholiness. Still, it points to what Jehovah’s people should become—“holy” or “sanctified,” like their God. Both titles—“Holy One” and “Valiant One”—characterize Israel’s God as his people’s exemplar. We observe this in an instance in which Jehovah exempts a righteous remnant of his people called his “holy ones” and “valiant ones” from a worldwide destruction (Isaiah 13:3).

They have lapsed into apostasy. Hebrew nazoru ahor signifies that Jehovah’s people have become entirely “estranged” from him. They have “gone backwards” to what they used to be before they became Jehovah’s covenant people, when they didn’t know their God. In effect, they have become godless again like the world’s heathen nations, but now more so because they have rejected the light they once had. The apostasy into which they began to backslide a generation ago is now complete. As a consequence, instead of enjoying the blessings of the covenant, they must suffer its curses.
Your position is completely self-contradictory. You quote the Book of Mormon, yet accuse the Prophet through who God brought it forward as a fallen prophet! Breathtaking nonsense!
lol.
talk about Breathtaking nonsense.

Just because God used Joseph Smith - to bring the BoM forward,
that doesn't mean that he's not a fallen prophet;
and that he didn't still possibly fail miserably in his personal life,
or in his responsibilities as a prophet.
Just like failing to establish Zion - as the Lord commanded.
Breathtaking apostasy indeed…

How was it put…Joseph Smith did more than any other person with the exception of Jesus Christ for the salvation of men…if that’s failure…sign me up!!!

Ya, you ought to sign up alright - for your place in the bishopric. lol.

like Spock - I think you've done a little too much LDS. lol.
Last edited by Being There on September 21st, 2022, 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Being There
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Re: Renlund uses words of Moroni to convince a man to take pharmaceuticals

Post by Being There »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: September 21st, 2022, 3:52 pm
FrankOne wrote: September 21st, 2022, 3:40 pm It's noteworthy that the baptism ordinance does not state that the person is being baptized into any 'church.'

An organization is just that. The church are the people that repent and go to Christ for their salvation. They don't go to "church" for their salvation. We are the church.
Well... kind of. The Nephites asked by what name they should be called. Christ was quite specific about his doctrine.

We just have to deal with the fact that Moroni was talking about a post-restoration era in these verses of Mormon 8:

36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God?
copy and paste - from what I've said years ago in this forum.

"Mormon chapter eight is directed squarely at the reader. I think it’s safe to say that there are very few other than the Latter Day Saints who read the Book of Mormon. Moroni’s words are not idle comments and prophecies for those who would not read the book. He reveals that he has seen our day and that we walk in pride and arrogance. “Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you. Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.” (Mormon 8:34-35) He didn’t identify any group when he started chapter 8 because he’s talking to you the reader of the record. None other. This is unambiguous. He calls you “YOU.” He may have seen YOU in this vision. Wake up!"

as I've already said many times.

The "holy church of God" Mormon 8:38 is our church that has been polluted.

Mormon 8:38
38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker,
why have ye polluted the holy church of God?
Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ?
Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—
because of the praise of the world?

look at verses 23 and 26
23 "even from the dust will they cry"
26 "for out of the earth shall they come"
"and it shall come even as if one should speak from the dead."
These verses sound like to me they are referring to
none other than the book these are in,
and the person who is speaking to us
who's it (the book) is named after,
the coming forth of the "The Book of Mormon".
And even if they are not; ALL the scriptures after that,
verses 27 to the end are talking about the last days. our days NOW.

Mormon 8:
26 And no one need say they shall not come, for they surely shall, for the Lord hath spoken it; for out of the earth shall they come, by the hand of the Lord, and none can stay it; and it shall come in a day when it shall be said that miracles are done away; and it shall come even as if one should speak from the dead.

27 And it shall come in a day when the blood of saints shall cry unto the Lord, because of secret combinations and the works of darkness.

28 Yea, it shall come in a day when the power of God shall be denied, and churches become defiled and be lifted up in the pride of their hearts; yea, even in a day when leaders of churches and teachers shall rise in the pride of their hearts, even to the envying of them who belong to their churches.

29 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be heard of fires, and tempests, and vapors of smoke in foreign lands;

30 And there shall also be heard of wars, rumors of wars, and earthquakes in divers places.

31 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be great pollutions upon the face of the earth; there shall be murders, and robbing, and lying, and deceivings, and whoredoms, and all manner of abominations; when there shall be many who will say, Do this, or do that, and it mattereth not, for the Lord will uphold such at the last day. But wo unto such, for they are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity.

32 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.

33 O ye wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people, why have ye built up churches unto yourselves to get gain?
Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God, that ye might bring damnation upon your souls?
Behold, look ye unto the revelations of God; for behold, the time cometh at that day when all these things must be fulfilled.

34 Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.

35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me,
and I know your doing.


36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
(if "and your churches, yea, even every one") doesn't include our church, then English has become useless)

37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker,
why have ye polluted the holy church of God?
Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ?
Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—
because of the praise of the world?

39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?

40 Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?

41 Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer.

I believe these verses are talking about everyone in this "choice land"
of America and especially for the church and it's members.
Interesting why the word "teachers" is used in the same verse
just before he says "who sell yourselves for that which will canker,
why have ye polluted the holy church of God? "
What other holy church of God is in the world today ?
I believe the only holy church of God this could be is none other than
our church today.
-------------------------------------------------
What time period was Christ talking about in these scriptures below ?

Matthew 24
And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the END OF THE WORLD?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 AND YE SHALL HEAR OF WARS AND RUMOURS OF WARS:
see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass,
BUT THE END IS NOT YET.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences,
and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Now doesn't verse 6 and 7 in Matthew 24
6 AND YE SHALL HEAR OF WARS AND RUMOURS OF WARS:
see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass,
BUT THE END IS NOT YET.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences,
and earthquakes, in divers places.

sound like this verse below ?:
Mormon 8:
30 And there shall also be HEARD OF WARS, RUMORS OF WARS, and earthquakes in divers places.

Many have speculated that Mormon was talking about a different time.
These scriptures are talking about the LAST DAYS - NOW !
NOT Joseph Smiths time or some other time in the past.

READ ! Mormon 8 verses 27 to the end.
They are talking about the last days. our days NOW.

READ !

27 And it shall come in a day when the blood of saints shall cry unto the Lord, because of secret combinations and the works of darkness.
28 Yea, it shall come in a day when the power of God shall be denied, and churches become defiled and be lifted up in the pride of their hearts; yea, even in a day when leaders of churches and teachers shall rise in the pride of their hearts, even to the envying of them who belong to their churches.
29 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be heard of fires, and tempests, and vapors of smoke in foreign lands;
30 And there shall also be heard of wars, rumors of wars, and earthquakes in divers places.
31 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be great pollutions upon the face of the earth; there shall be murders, and robbing, and lying, and deceivings, and whoredoms, and all manner of abominations; when there shall be many who will say, Do this, or do that, and it mattereth not, for the Lord will uphold such at the last day. But wo unto such, for they are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity.
32 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.
33 O ye wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people, why have ye built up churches unto yourselves to get gain? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God, that ye might bring damnation upon your souls? Behold, look ye unto the revelations of God; for behold, the time cometh at that day when all these things must be fulfilled.
34 Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.
35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.
36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities;
and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?
39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?
40 Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?
41 Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer.

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FrankOne
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Re: Renlund uses words of Moroni to convince a man to take pharmaceuticals

Post by FrankOne »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: September 21st, 2022, 3:52 pm
FrankOne wrote: September 21st, 2022, 3:40 pm It's noteworthy that the baptism ordinance does not state that the person is being baptized into any 'church.'

An organization is just that. The church are the people that repent and go to Christ for their salvation. They don't go to "church" for their salvation. We are the church.
Well... kind of. The Nephites asked by what name they should be called. Christ was quite specific about his doctrine.

We just have to deal with the fact that Moroni was talking about a post-restoration era in these verses of Mormon 8:

36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God?
I do see your point. I won't contest that organizations are necessary so that people of like faith can identify with each other, build each other up, and grow together . I do realize that each group of faith is different. Agreement in a belief creates a group. So...Nephi wanted a name for that group and he was given one.

The past is now done. What was, was. All large organizations have fallen as has been prophesied.

The new body of Christ , I believe, will be something very different than what we have known. Some baptists, some LDS, some catholic, some buddhist, some hindu, some muslim.... that all come together in a way that only God can create. No doubt that it will resemble the doctrine of current mormonism, but I personally have no doubt that many things will 'change'. As the changes from the OT law (read leviticus) changed dramatically with the doctrines of Christ, so shall there be changes in what is to come. Something more simple, but more powerful.

A church that no longer has a form of godliness but denies the power thereof. The current LDS church has no idea what the power of God is. Just as many people are healed by a blessing from a fundamental Christian as there are by an LDS 'priesthood' blessing. Few LDS members even dare to consider this truth.

interesting how the LDS church has become no different than the churches that existed when JS was given his first instruction.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Renlund uses words of Moroni to convince a man to take pharmaceuticals

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

FrankOne wrote: September 21st, 2022, 5:58 pm
interesting how the LDS church has become no different than the churches that existed when JS was given his first instruction.
I think it has become far worse.

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Being There
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Re: Renlund uses words of Moroni to convince a man to take pharmaceuticals

Post by Being There »

Jason wrote: September 19th, 2022, 10:30 pm
Being There wrote: September 19th, 2022, 6:58 pm
Obeone wrote: September 18th, 2022, 10:04 pm
Being There wrote: September 18th, 2022, 8:17 pm

another one - who doesn't know the scriptures -
and who is even blind to the signs of the times,
and blind to a church that has become corrupt and fallen into apostasy.

It WAS - the Lord's church - until it was polluted and corrupted by men - (starting with Joseph Smith)
and fell into apostasy - just as Isaiah 1:4 says.

EVERYTHING IN THE BOOK OF ISAIAH IS SPEAKING TO THE LORD'S END-TIME PEOPLE -
(US - OUR CORRUPT CHURCH TODAY.)

The church has completely fallen - years ago. and "have lapsed into apostasy."
The first Chapter of Isaiah verse 4 reveals that.

4 Alas, a nation astray, a people weighed down by sin, the offspring of wrongdoers, perverse children:
they have forsaken Jehovah, they have spurned the Holy One of Israel,
they have lapsed into APOSTASY.

From addressing his people personally as “Israel . . . my people” (v 3), Jehovah now addresses them impersonally as “a nation,” signifying their alienated state. Additionally, a regression occurs from his people’s simply going “astray” to their burdening themselves with “sin,” which, over time, ends in outright “wrongdoing.” That occurs collectively and generationally. The “offspring of wrongdoers” turn into “perverse children,” meaning that the rising generation has by now become thoroughly corrupt. “Forsaking” Jehovah and “spurning” him finally become conscious and deliberate acts.

The Holy One of Israel. The title of “Holy One,” together with “Valiant One” (v 24) designates Israel’s God more than thirty times in the Book of Isaiah. In this case, it contrasts Jehovah’s holiness with his people’s unholiness. Still, it points to what Jehovah’s people should become—“holy” or “sanctified,” like their God. Both titles—“Holy One” and “Valiant One”—characterize Israel’s God as his people’s exemplar. We observe this in an instance in which Jehovah exempts a righteous remnant of his people called his “holy ones” and “valiant ones” from a worldwide destruction (Isaiah 13:3).

They have lapsed into apostasy. Hebrew nazoru ahor signifies that Jehovah’s people have become entirely “estranged” from him. They have “gone backwards” to what they used to be before they became Jehovah’s covenant people, when they didn’t know their God. In effect, they have become godless again like the world’s heathen nations, but now more so because they have rejected the light they once had. The apostasy into which they began to backslide a generation ago is now complete. As a consequence, instead of enjoying the blessings of the covenant, they must suffer its curses.
Your position is completely self-contradictory. You quote the Book of Mormon, yet accuse the Prophet through who God brought it forward as a fallen prophet! Breathtaking nonsense!
lol.
talk about Breathtaking nonsense.

Just because God used Joseph Smith - to bring the BoM forward,
that doesn't mean that he's not a fallen prophet;
and that he didn't still possibly fail miserably in his personal life,
or in his responsibilities as a prophet.
Just like failing to establish Zion - as the Lord commanded.
Breathtaking apostasy indeed…

How was it put…Joseph Smith did more than any other person with the exception of Jesus Christ for the salvation of men…if that’s failure…sign me up!!!
truly spoken from the lips of a True Blue Mormon.

just reading that makes me sick !
what blasphemy !

trying to compare JS to our Savior ! -
or at least second to Him.

Mentioning Jesus Christ, and in the same sentence - mentioning JS having to do with our salvation !
How ugly - and sad.

User avatar
Obeone
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Posts: 1382

Re: Renlund uses words of Moroni to convince a man to take pharmaceuticals

Post by Obeone »

FrankOne wrote: September 21st, 2022, 3:20 pm I"m repeating this from a post above because it resolves all debate on what the Church is. Anything other than this is a sideways argument , so I'll just post this point and nothing else.

Christ:

Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.
68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me,
but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.

Any comments?
Yes. You just quoted revelation given through Prophet Joseph Smith, who received many other revelations recorded in D&C where the Lord commands him to organize this The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. The only "true and living church upon the face of the whole earth" D&C 1:30.

Yet you deny the words of God and of Joseph Smith after quoting some of them.

Isn't that a self-contradiction?

Any comments?

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Being There
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Posts: 2868

Re: Renlund uses words of Moroni to convince a man to take pharmaceuticals

Post by Being There »

Obeone wrote: September 21st, 2022, 8:20 pm
FrankOne wrote: September 21st, 2022, 3:20 pm I"m repeating this from a post above because it resolves all debate on what the Church is. Anything other than this is a sideways argument , so I'll just post this point and nothing else.

Christ:

Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.
68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me,
but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.

Any comments?
Yes. You just quoted revelation given through Prophet Joseph Smith, who received many other revelations recorded in D&C where the Lord commands him to organize this The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. The only "true and living church upon the face of the whole earth" D&C 1:30.

Yet you deny the words of God and of Joseph Smith after quoting some of them.

Isn't that a self-contradiction?

Any comments?
CORRECTION
WAS - The only "true church .

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FrankOne
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Posts: 2826

Re: Renlund uses words of Moroni to convince a man to take pharmaceuticals

Post by FrankOne »

Obeone wrote: September 21st, 2022, 8:20 pm
FrankOne wrote: September 21st, 2022, 3:20 pm I"m repeating this from a post above because it resolves all debate on what the Church is. Anything other than this is a sideways argument , so I'll just post this point and nothing else.

Christ:

Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.
68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me,
but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.

Any comments?

Yes. You just quoted revelation given through Prophet Joseph Smith, who received many other revelations recorded in D&C where the Lord commands him to organize this The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. The only "true and living church upon the face of the whole earth" D&C 1:30.

Yet you deny the words of God and of Joseph Smith after quoting some of them.

Isn't that a self-contradiction?

Any comments?
The quote is true and I'm quite particular of what I quote so I'm certain that I've never said anything contrary to those words.
You'd have to make me aware of those denials. .. I'm at a loss.

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Jason
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Posts: 18296

Re: Renlund uses words of Moroni to convince a man to take pharmaceuticals

Post by Jason »

Being There wrote: September 21st, 2022, 2:00 pm
Jason wrote: September 21st, 2022, 2:43 am Of course if that’s all true…what’s the point of organized religion…yet structure and authority is what Jesus of old and new established
exactly, what's the point.

This is what Jesus taught about "His church" and what it is.

as I've said before

"maybe you need to understand what the word "church" means
and how the Lord uses it.

do I have to go to any church ?

quote
"The Lord restored His church, but what is His church ?


D&C 10
67
Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.

68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me,
but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.
69 And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end,
him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

now where have I heard that before - "rock" "and upon this rock I will build my church"
Matthew 16
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood
hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter,
and upon this rock I will build my church;

and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


* "every time "church" is mentioned in the New Testament,
it refers only to the people who believe in Christ"

so the Lord is saying,
WHOEVER repents, and comes to Him IS His church, (ANYONE)
and He will build His church, with those that come to Him -
the way how it was revealed to Peter that He was the Christ -
that is - through the rock of revelation - His spirit - the Holy Ghost."
cherry pickin' without additional context like...

Ephesians 4:11-12

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Jason
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Posts: 18296

Re: Renlund uses words of Moroni to convince a man to take pharmaceuticals

Post by Jason »

Being There wrote: September 21st, 2022, 4:12 pm
Jason wrote: September 19th, 2022, 10:30 pm
Being There wrote: September 19th, 2022, 6:58 pm
Obeone wrote: September 18th, 2022, 10:04 pm
Your position is completely self-contradictory. You quote the Book of Mormon, yet accuse the Prophet through who God brought it forward as a fallen prophet! Breathtaking nonsense!
lol.
talk about Breathtaking nonsense.

Just because God used Joseph Smith - to bring the BoM forward,
that doesn't mean that he's not a fallen prophet;
and that he didn't still possibly fail miserably in his personal life,
or in his responsibilities as a prophet.
Just like failing to establish Zion - as the Lord commanded.
Breathtaking apostasy indeed…

How was it put…Joseph Smith did more than any other person with the exception of Jesus Christ for the salvation of men…if that’s failure…sign me up!!!

Ya, you ought to sign up alright - for your place in the bishopric. lol.

like Spock - I think you've done a little too much LDS. lol.
I've been in a couple of bishoprics over my decades in the church...I've seen first hand the Spirit of God in action directing and guiding...

User avatar
Jason
Master of Puppets
Posts: 18296

Re: Renlund uses words of Moroni to convince a man to take pharmaceuticals

Post by Jason »

Being There wrote: September 21st, 2022, 7:19 pm
Jason wrote: September 19th, 2022, 10:30 pm
Being There wrote: September 19th, 2022, 6:58 pm
Obeone wrote: September 18th, 2022, 10:04 pm
Your position is completely self-contradictory. You quote the Book of Mormon, yet accuse the Prophet through who God brought it forward as a fallen prophet! Breathtaking nonsense!
lol.
talk about Breathtaking nonsense.

Just because God used Joseph Smith - to bring the BoM forward,
that doesn't mean that he's not a fallen prophet;
and that he didn't still possibly fail miserably in his personal life,
or in his responsibilities as a prophet.
Just like failing to establish Zion - as the Lord commanded.
Breathtaking apostasy indeed…

How was it put…Joseph Smith did more than any other person with the exception of Jesus Christ for the salvation of men…if that’s failure…sign me up!!!
truly spoken from the lips of a True Blue Mormon.

just reading that makes me sick !
what blasphemy !

trying to compare JS to our Savior ! -
or at least second to Him.

Mentioning Jesus Christ, and in the same sentence - mentioning JS having to do with our salvation !
How ugly - and sad.
puke your soul out...more power to you...

John Taylor wasn't off the mark with his commentary...

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Being There
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2868

Ephxx

Post by Being There »

Jason wrote: September 24th, 2022, 3:50 pm
Being There wrote: September 21st, 2022, 4:12 pm
Jason wrote: September 19th, 2022, 10:30 pm
Being There wrote: September 19th, 2022, 6:58 pm

lol.
talk about Breathtaking nonsense.

Just because God used Joseph Smith - to bring the BoM forward,
that doesn't mean that he's not a fallen prophet;
and that he didn't still possibly fail miserably in his personal life,
or in his responsibilities as a prophet.
Just like failing to establish Zion - as the Lord commanded.
Breathtaking apostasy indeed…

How was it put…Joseph Smith did more than any other person with the exception of Jesus Christ for the salvation of men…if that’s failure…sign me up!!!

Ya, you ought to sign up alright - for your place in the bishopric. lol.

like Spock - I think you've done a little too much LDS. lol.
I've been in a couple of bishoprics over my decades in the church
I don't doubt it -
you're quite good at quoting and "parroting" -
like the Q15 - who don't have the spirit, but who are FULL of men's words and their precepts -
parroting and quoting each other all the time - patting each other on the back;
not to mention they don't preach against anything - all the evils in the World that governments
and World and religious leaders (like Nelson) follow, but they have aligned with it.

Like the Q15 - The Drunkards of Ephraim -
I think you fulfill Isaiah 28:9,10 to the tee.

Isaiah 28

7 These too have indulged in wine and are giddy with strong drink:priests and prophets have gone astray through liquor.
They are intoxicated with wine and stagger because of strong drink; they err as seers, they blunder in their decisions.
8 For all tables are filled with vomit; no spot is without excrement.

As the political and ecclesiastical leaderships of Jehovah’s people always appear on a par (Isaiah 3:2-4; 9:14-16; 24:2), so Ephraim’s “fat proud ones” (vv 1, 4) include its “priests,” “prophets,” and “seers” (Isaiah 56:10-12). Intoxicated with the wine of self-deception (v 15), they “stray,” “err,” and “blunder” in their policies. Instead of obtaining revelation from Jehovah (vv 9, 14, 16, 26, 29), they water down his word until it is ineffectual in empowering his people (vv 10-13; Isaiah 32:6). The best their spiritual feasts offer is “vomit”—partly digested food regurgitated for Jehovah’s people to consume.


We are still satisfied with the milk portions - the ABC portions of the gospel.
We will not accept the meat portions of the gospel.

9 Whom shall he give instruction?
Whom shall he enlighten with revelation?
Weanlings weaned from milk,
those just taken from the breast?
10 For it is but line upon line, line upon line,
precept upon precept, precept upon precept;
a trifle here, a trifle there.

Although Jehovah wants to give his people “instruction” and “revelation,” they are but babes and sucklings who haven’t developed far enough to digest more than milk: “Everyone who uses milk is unskillful in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe” (Hebrews 5:13).
Ephraim’s mode of learning is still “line upon line, line upon line, precept upon precept, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little” (saw lasaw saw lasaw qaw laqaw qaw laqaw ze‘ir sam ze‘ir sam).
Assonance and alliteration parody their rote method of learning
that consists of parroting back what their leaders teach.


13 So to them the word of Jehovah remained:
Line upon line, line upon line,
precept upon precept, precept upon precept;
a trifle here, a trifle there, that,
persisting, they might lapse into stumbling
and break themselves,
become ensnared and be taken captive.

Instead of receiving a greater portion of the “word of Jehovah” through divine revelation, the people of Ephraim remain ensconced in its lesser version as that is all they know. The end result is their ruination: “Sanctify Jehovah of Hosts, making him your fear, him your awe. And [to you] he will be a sanctuary, but to the two houses of Israel a stumbling block or obstructing rock, and a snare, catching unawares the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Many will stumble into them, and when they fall shall be broken, and when they become ensnared shall be taken captive” (Isaiah 8:13-15; cf. 5:13; 42:18-25).
---------------------

Isaiah 3
12 As for my people, babes subject them; women wield authority over them.
O my people, your leaders mislead you, abolishing your traditional ways.

"The leaders of these people have misled them, and those who are led are confused” (Isaiah 9:13–16).
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=54297&p=1144743&hil ... d#p1144743

Isaiah 28 exposes the follies of the "Drunkards of Ephraim! " (church leaders)
Isaiah 28
Ephraim and its prophets reap disaster for being delusional and for rejecting divine revelation.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=55396&p=1037704&hil ... h#p1037704

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Obeone
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Posts: 1382

Re: Ephxx

Post by Obeone »

Being There wrote: September 24th, 2022, 5:08 pm you're quite good at quoting and "parroting" -
It is funny coming from a man who just copied and pasted several chapters from Isaiah.
Being There wrote: September 24th, 2022, 5:08 pm Ephraim’s mode of learning is still “line upon line, line upon line, precept upon precept, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little” (saw lasaw saw lasaw qaw laqaw qaw laqaw ze‘ir sam ze‘ir sam).
Assonance and alliteration parody their rote method of learning
that consists of parroting back what their leaders teach.


13 So to them the word of Jehovah remained:
Line upon line, line upon line,
precept upon precept, precept upon precept;
a trifle here, a trifle there, that,
persisting, they might lapse into stumbling
and break themselves,
become ensnared and be taken captive.
Did you forget this?
 2 Nephi 28:
30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.
It looks like "line upon line" is the Lord's way of teaching.

You on the other hand, boast of "meat" instead of milk, yet broke the covenant you made with God to support His Church.

Not smart. You will know it. Mark my word.

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Jason
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Posts: 18296

Re: Ephxx

Post by Jason »

Being There wrote: September 24th, 2022, 5:08 pm
Jason wrote: September 24th, 2022, 3:50 pm
Being There wrote: September 21st, 2022, 4:12 pm
Jason wrote: September 19th, 2022, 10:30 pm

Breathtaking apostasy indeed…

How was it put…Joseph Smith did more than any other person with the exception of Jesus Christ for the salvation of men…if that’s failure…sign me up!!!

Ya, you ought to sign up alright - for your place in the bishopric. lol.

like Spock - I think you've done a little too much LDS. lol.
I've been in a couple of bishoprics over my decades in the church
I don't doubt it -
you're quite good at quoting and "parroting" -
like the Q15 - who don't have the spirit, but who are FULL of men's words and their precepts -
parroting and quoting each other all the time - patting each other on the back;
not to mention they don't preach against anything - all the evils in the World that governments
and World and religious leaders (like Nelson) follow, but they have aligned with it.

Like the Q15 - The Drunkards of Ephraim -
I think you fulfill Isaiah 28:9,10 to the tee.

Isaiah 28

7 These too have indulged in wine and are giddy with strong drink:priests and prophets have gone astray through liquor.
They are intoxicated with wine and stagger because of strong drink; they err as seers, they blunder in their decisions.
8 For all tables are filled with vomit; no spot is without excrement.

As the political and ecclesiastical leaderships of Jehovah’s people always appear on a par (Isaiah 3:2-4; 9:14-16; 24:2), so Ephraim’s “fat proud ones” (vv 1, 4) include its “priests,” “prophets,” and “seers” (Isaiah 56:10-12). Intoxicated with the wine of self-deception (v 15), they “stray,” “err,” and “blunder” in their policies. Instead of obtaining revelation from Jehovah (vv 9, 14, 16, 26, 29), they water down his word until it is ineffectual in empowering his people (vv 10-13; Isaiah 32:6). The best their spiritual feasts offer is “vomit”—partly digested food regurgitated for Jehovah’s people to consume.


We are still satisfied with the milk portions - the ABC portions of the gospel.
We will not accept the meat portions of the gospel.

9 Whom shall he give instruction?
Whom shall he enlighten with revelation?
Weanlings weaned from milk,
those just taken from the breast?
10 For it is but line upon line, line upon line,
precept upon precept, precept upon precept;
a trifle here, a trifle there.

Although Jehovah wants to give his people “instruction” and “revelation,” they are but babes and sucklings who haven’t developed far enough to digest more than milk: “Everyone who uses milk is unskillful in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe” (Hebrews 5:13).
Ephraim’s mode of learning is still “line upon line, line upon line, precept upon precept, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little” (saw lasaw saw lasaw qaw laqaw qaw laqaw ze‘ir sam ze‘ir sam).
Assonance and alliteration parody their rote method of learning
that consists of parroting back what their leaders teach.


13 So to them the word of Jehovah remained:
Line upon line, line upon line,
precept upon precept, precept upon precept;
a trifle here, a trifle there, that,
persisting, they might lapse into stumbling
and break themselves,
become ensnared and be taken captive.

Instead of receiving a greater portion of the “word of Jehovah” through divine revelation, the people of Ephraim remain ensconced in its lesser version as that is all they know. The end result is their ruination: “Sanctify Jehovah of Hosts, making him your fear, him your awe. And [to you] he will be a sanctuary, but to the two houses of Israel a stumbling block or obstructing rock, and a snare, catching unawares the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Many will stumble into them, and when they fall shall be broken, and when they become ensnared shall be taken captive” (Isaiah 8:13-15; cf. 5:13; 42:18-25).
---------------------

Isaiah 3
12 As for my people, babes subject them; women wield authority over them.
O my people, your leaders mislead you, abolishing your traditional ways.

"The leaders of these people have misled them, and those who are led are confused” (Isaiah 9:13–16).
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=54297&p=1144743&hil ... d#p1144743

Isaiah 28 exposes the follies of the "Drunkards of Ephraim! " (church leaders)
Isaiah 28
Ephraim and its prophets reap disaster for being delusional and for rejecting divine revelation.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=55396&p=1037704&hil ... h#p1037704
rant about quoting...and then you put out a bunch of quotes...out of context though...

User avatar
Jason
Master of Puppets
Posts: 18296

Re: Renlund uses words of Moroni to convince a man to take pharmaceuticals

Post by Jason »

Being There wrote: September 21st, 2022, 7:19 pm
Jason wrote: September 19th, 2022, 10:30 pm
Being There wrote: September 19th, 2022, 6:58 pm
Obeone wrote: September 18th, 2022, 10:04 pm
Your position is completely self-contradictory. You quote the Book of Mormon, yet accuse the Prophet through who God brought it forward as a fallen prophet! Breathtaking nonsense!
lol.
talk about Breathtaking nonsense.

Just because God used Joseph Smith - to bring the BoM forward,
that doesn't mean that he's not a fallen prophet;
and that he didn't still possibly fail miserably in his personal life,
or in his responsibilities as a prophet.
Just like failing to establish Zion - as the Lord commanded.
Breathtaking apostasy indeed…

How was it put…Joseph Smith did more than any other person with the exception of Jesus Christ for the salvation of men…if that’s failure…sign me up!!!
truly spoken from the lips of a True Blue Mormon.

just reading that makes me sick !
what blasphemy !

trying to compare JS to our Savior ! -
or at least second to Him.

Mentioning Jesus Christ, and in the same sentence - mentioning JS having to do with our salvation !
How ugly - and sad.
By the way...thank you for the compliment...can't think of a finer one...make my uncle Brigham proud...

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InfoWarrior82
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Posts: 10861
Location: "There are 15 on the earth today, you can trust them completely." -President Nelson (Jan 2022)

Re: Ephxx

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

Jason wrote: September 25th, 2022, 7:06 am
Being There wrote: September 24th, 2022, 5:08 pm
Jason wrote: September 24th, 2022, 3:50 pm
Being There wrote: September 21st, 2022, 4:12 pm


Ya, you ought to sign up alright - for your place in the bishopric. lol.

like Spock - I think you've done a little too much LDS. lol.
I've been in a couple of bishoprics over my decades in the church
I don't doubt it -
you're quite good at quoting and "parroting" -
like the Q15 - who don't have the spirit, but who are FULL of men's words and their precepts -
parroting and quoting each other all the time - patting each other on the back;
not to mention they don't preach against anything - all the evils in the World that governments
and World and religious leaders (like Nelson) follow, but they have aligned with it.

Like the Q15 - The Drunkards of Ephraim -
I think you fulfill Isaiah 28:9,10 to the tee.

Isaiah 28

7 These too have indulged in wine and are giddy with strong drink:priests and prophets have gone astray through liquor.
They are intoxicated with wine and stagger because of strong drink; they err as seers, they blunder in their decisions.
8 For all tables are filled with vomit; no spot is without excrement.

As the political and ecclesiastical leaderships of Jehovah’s people always appear on a par (Isaiah 3:2-4; 9:14-16; 24:2), so Ephraim’s “fat proud ones” (vv 1, 4) include its “priests,” “prophets,” and “seers” (Isaiah 56:10-12). Intoxicated with the wine of self-deception (v 15), they “stray,” “err,” and “blunder” in their policies. Instead of obtaining revelation from Jehovah (vv 9, 14, 16, 26, 29), they water down his word until it is ineffectual in empowering his people (vv 10-13; Isaiah 32:6). The best their spiritual feasts offer is “vomit”—partly digested food regurgitated for Jehovah’s people to consume.


We are still satisfied with the milk portions - the ABC portions of the gospel.
We will not accept the meat portions of the gospel.

9 Whom shall he give instruction?
Whom shall he enlighten with revelation?
Weanlings weaned from milk,
those just taken from the breast?
10 For it is but line upon line, line upon line,
precept upon precept, precept upon precept;
a trifle here, a trifle there.

Although Jehovah wants to give his people “instruction” and “revelation,” they are but babes and sucklings who haven’t developed far enough to digest more than milk: “Everyone who uses milk is unskillful in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe” (Hebrews 5:13).
Ephraim’s mode of learning is still “line upon line, line upon line, precept upon precept, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little” (saw lasaw saw lasaw qaw laqaw qaw laqaw ze‘ir sam ze‘ir sam).
Assonance and alliteration parody their rote method of learning
that consists of parroting back what their leaders teach.


13 So to them the word of Jehovah remained:
Line upon line, line upon line,
precept upon precept, precept upon precept;
a trifle here, a trifle there, that,
persisting, they might lapse into stumbling
and break themselves,
become ensnared and be taken captive.

Instead of receiving a greater portion of the “word of Jehovah” through divine revelation, the people of Ephraim remain ensconced in its lesser version as that is all they know. The end result is their ruination: “Sanctify Jehovah of Hosts, making him your fear, him your awe. And [to you] he will be a sanctuary, but to the two houses of Israel a stumbling block or obstructing rock, and a snare, catching unawares the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Many will stumble into them, and when they fall shall be broken, and when they become ensnared shall be taken captive” (Isaiah 8:13-15; cf. 5:13; 42:18-25).
---------------------

Isaiah 3
12 As for my people, babes subject them; women wield authority over them.
O my people, your leaders mislead you, abolishing your traditional ways.

"The leaders of these people have misled them, and those who are led are confused” (Isaiah 9:13–16).
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=54297&p=1144743&hil ... d#p1144743

Isaiah 28 exposes the follies of the "Drunkards of Ephraim! " (church leaders)
Isaiah 28
Ephraim and its prophets reap disaster for being delusional and for rejecting divine revelation.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=55396&p=1037704&hil ... h#p1037704
rant about quoting...and then you put out a bunch of quotes...out of context though...

His complaint was that you're parroting uninspired men. If you'd like to try and put these scriptures IN context, let's hear it. Don't be lazy.

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Being There
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2868

Re: Ephxx

Post by Being There »

Jason wrote: September 25th, 2022, 7:06 am
Being There wrote: September 24th, 2022, 5:08 pm
Jason wrote: September 24th, 2022, 3:50 pm
Being There wrote: September 21st, 2022, 4:12 pm


Ya, you ought to sign up alright - for your place in the bishopric. lol.

like Spock - I think you've done a little too much LDS. lol.
I've been in a couple of bishoprics over my decades in the church
I don't doubt it -
you're quite good at quoting and "parroting" -
like the Q15 - who don't have the spirit, but who are FULL of men's words and their precepts -
parroting and quoting each other all the time - patting each other on the back;
not to mention they don't preach against anything - all the evils in the World that governments
and World and religious leaders (like Nelson) follow, but they have aligned with it.

Like the Q15 - The Drunkards of Ephraim -
I think you fulfill Isaiah 28:9,10 to the tee.

Isaiah 28

7 These too have indulged in wine and are giddy with strong drink:priests and prophets have gone astray through liquor.
They are intoxicated with wine and stagger because of strong drink; they err as seers, they blunder in their decisions.
8 For all tables are filled with vomit; no spot is without excrement.

As the political and ecclesiastical leaderships of Jehovah’s people always appear on a par (Isaiah 3:2-4; 9:14-16; 24:2), so Ephraim’s “fat proud ones” (vv 1, 4) include its “priests,” “prophets,” and “seers” (Isaiah 56:10-12). Intoxicated with the wine of self-deception (v 15), they “stray,” “err,” and “blunder” in their policies. Instead of obtaining revelation from Jehovah (vv 9, 14, 16, 26, 29), they water down his word until it is ineffectual in empowering his people (vv 10-13; Isaiah 32:6). The best their spiritual feasts offer is “vomit”—partly digested food regurgitated for Jehovah’s people to consume.


We are still satisfied with the milk portions - the ABC portions of the gospel.
We will not accept the meat portions of the gospel.

9 Whom shall he give instruction?
Whom shall he enlighten with revelation?
Weanlings weaned from milk,
those just taken from the breast?
10 For it is but line upon line, line upon line,
precept upon precept, precept upon precept;
a trifle here, a trifle there.

Although Jehovah wants to give his people “instruction” and “revelation,” they are but babes and sucklings who haven’t developed far enough to digest more than milk: “Everyone who uses milk is unskillful in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe” (Hebrews 5:13).
Ephraim’s mode of learning is still “line upon line, line upon line, precept upon precept, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little” (saw lasaw saw lasaw qaw laqaw qaw laqaw ze‘ir sam ze‘ir sam).
Assonance and alliteration parody their rote method of learning
that consists of parroting back what their leaders teach.


13 So to them the word of Jehovah remained:
Line upon line, line upon line,
precept upon precept, precept upon precept;
a trifle here, a trifle there, that,
persisting, they might lapse into stumbling
and break themselves,
become ensnared and be taken captive.

Instead of receiving a greater portion of the “word of Jehovah” through divine revelation, the people of Ephraim remain ensconced in its lesser version as that is all they know. The end result is their ruination: “Sanctify Jehovah of Hosts, making him your fear, him your awe. And [to you] he will be a sanctuary, but to the two houses of Israel a stumbling block or obstructing rock, and a snare, catching unawares the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Many will stumble into them, and when they fall shall be broken, and when they become ensnared shall be taken captive” (Isaiah 8:13-15; cf. 5:13; 42:18-25).
---------------------

Isaiah 3
12 As for my people, babes subject them; women wield authority over them.
O my people, your leaders mislead you, abolishing your traditional ways.

"The leaders of these people have misled them, and those who are led are confused” (Isaiah 9:13–16).
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=54297&p=1144743&hil ... d#p1144743

Isaiah 28 exposes the follies of the "Drunkards of Ephraim! " (church leaders)
Isaiah 28
Ephraim and its prophets reap disaster for being delusional and for rejecting divine revelation.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=55396&p=1037704&hil ... h#p1037704
rant about quoting...and then you put out a bunch of quotes...out of context though...
quoting someone - like Isaiah - which the Lord said that his words were GREAT -
and gave a commandment that we "search diligently" his words -
is hardly the same as you quoting and parroting your church leaders. lol. -
but you probably wouldn't understand that.
and btw - they're anything but out of context.

but that's ok, you keep trusting in the arm of the flesh and quoting church leaders - precepts of men.

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Obeone
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Re: Ephxx

Post by Obeone »

Being There wrote: September 25th, 2022, 9:33 am quoting someone - like Isaiah - which the Lord said that his words were GREAT -
and gave a commandment that we "search diligently" his words -
is hardly the same as you quoting and parroting your church leaders. lol. -
but you probably wouldn't understand that.
and btw - they're anything but out of context.

but that's ok, you keep trusting in the arm of the flesh and quoting church leaders - precepts of men.
That is hilarious, EVERY prophet you are quoting, including Isaiah, used to be a church leader. This is no more "the arm of flesh" than they were.

A little logic please...

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Chip
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Re: Ephxx

Post by Chip »

Obeone wrote: September 25th, 2022, 1:19 pm
Being There wrote: September 25th, 2022, 9:33 am quoting someone - like Isaiah - which the Lord said that his words were GREAT -
and gave a commandment that we "search diligently" his words -
is hardly the same as you quoting and parroting your church leaders. lol. -
but you probably wouldn't understand that.
and btw - they're anything but out of context.

but that's ok, you keep trusting in the arm of the flesh and quoting church leaders - precepts of men.
That is hilarious, EVERY prophet you are quoting, including Isaiah, used to be a church leader. This is no more "the arm of flesh" than they were.

A little logic please...

The church ongoingly recasts biblical history to comport with whatever its own current style of operation is. As if, for example, the Covenant Path (tm) has always been a thing.

In Brigham's time, the entire household of heaven had been recast as polygamist extraordinaires. We don't hear that, nowadays, and polygamists get summarily kicked out of the church.

And here, today, you think every prophet was a church leader, likely in the same fashion as our current leaders, right down to the softspoken feel-the-spirit talk-delivery schtick.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Renlund uses words of Moroni to convince a man to take pharmaceuticals

Post by Silver Pie »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: September 21st, 2022, 3:32 pm
FrankOne wrote: September 21st, 2022, 3:20 pm Christ:

Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.
68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me,
but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.

Any comments?
3 Nephi 11 is meant to clearly outline Christ's role as Savior. Redemption comes ONLY through Him and His atonement. That is why He states no other doctrine should be declared. But, what he also clarifies in this chapter is that these steps (faith, repentance) are the foundation that we are to build upon. It wasn't the end of his doctrine.
I think that is all the doctrine, though there may be tenets and other things. Knowledge, understanding. The the only actual doctrine is coming to Christ, which includes receiving water baptism, and baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost - then you follow everything the Holy One of Israel tells you to do.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Renlund uses words of Moroni to convince a man to take pharmaceuticals

Post by Silver Pie »

FrankOne wrote: September 21st, 2022, 3:40 pm It's noteworthy that the baptism ordinance does not state that the person is being baptized into any 'church.'

An organization is just that. The church are the people that repent and go to Christ for their salvation. They don't go to "church" for their salvation. We are the church.
Absolutely! Even the LDS Church confirms a person a member in a separate ordinance. We don't need a "duly organized" religion. All we need are men who have been given authority from God to baptize.
Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this [the Aaronic priesthood, not the LDS Church, and not even the Melchizedek priesthood] shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness.
D&C 13

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Renlund uses words of Moroni to convince a man to take pharmaceuticals

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Silver Pie wrote: September 25th, 2022, 3:51 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: September 21st, 2022, 3:32 pm
FrankOne wrote: September 21st, 2022, 3:20 pm Christ:

Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.
68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me,
but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.

Any comments?
3 Nephi 11 is meant to clearly outline Christ's role as Savior. Redemption comes ONLY through Him and His atonement. That is why He states no other doctrine should be declared. But, what he also clarifies in this chapter is that these steps (faith, repentance) are the foundation that we are to build upon. It wasn't the end of his doctrine.
I think that is all the doctrine, though there may be tenets and other things. Knowledge, understanding. The the only actual doctrine is coming to Christ, which includes receiving water baptism, and baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost - then you follow everything the Holy One of Israel tells you to do.
So what do you believe constitutes “doctrine”?

doctrine
noun
doc·​trine ˈdäk-trən

a : a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief
b : a statement of fundamental government policy especially in international relations
the Truman Doctrine
c : law : a principle of law established through past decisions
d : a military principle or set of strategies
e : something that is taught

Christ’s gospel and doctrine are far more expansive.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Renlund uses words of Moroni to convince a man to take pharmaceuticals

Post by Silver Pie »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: September 25th, 2022, 3:56 pm So what do you believe constitutes “doctrine”?
This is what I believe. My definition comes from what Nephi said (2 Nephi 31), according to what the Heavens told him, not from a dictionary. Note that one must press forward, feasting upon the words of Christ, and endure to the end, so there is more to do, but there is only one doctrine. Nephi plainly said so.



Wherefore, the things which I have written sufficeth me, save it be a few words which I must speak concerning the doctrine of Christ; wherefore, I shall speak unto you plainly, according to the plainness of my prophesying. For my soul delighteth in plainness; for after this manner doth the Lord God work among the children of men. For the Lord God giveth light unto the understanding; for he speaketh unto men according to their language, unto their understanding.

Wherefore, I would that ye should remember that I have spoken unto you concerning that prophet which the Lord showed unto me, that should baptize the Lamb of God, which should take away the sins of the world. And now, if the Lamb of God, he being holy, should have need to be baptized by water, to fulfil all righteousness, O then, how much more need have we, being unholy, to be baptized, yea, even by water! And now, I would ask of you, my beloved brethren, wherein the Lamb of God did fulfil all righteousness in being baptized by water? Know ye not that he was holy? But notwithstanding he being holy, he showeth unto the children of men that, according to the flesh he humbleth himself before the Father, and witnesseth unto the Father that he would be obedient unto him in keeping his commandments. Wherefore, after he was baptized with water the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove.

And again, it showeth unto the children of men the straitness of the path, and the narrowness of the gate, by which they should enter, he having set the example before them. And he said unto the children of men: Follow thou me. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, can we follow Jesus save we shall be willing to keep the commandments of the Father? And the Father said: Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son. And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do.

Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.

But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me. And I heard a voice from the Father, saying: Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved. Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost. And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.

And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save. Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

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