Where are my concubines?

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by Shawn Henry »

Jashon wrote: September 20th, 2022, 11:36 am The typesetter was John Gilbert, not Grandin. Gilbert made the error.

Anyway, as it says in ATV, Bob Smith et al have pointed out that "fathers" doesn't work culturally for the Israelites because there wasn't a prohibition on polygyny in ancient Israel.
How do we know error from correct version, we don't. What if Oliver made the error first when writing it down and then Joseph corrected it before print versus Oliver writing it down correctly and the printer then made the error. We'll never know.

I think everyone is in agreement that polygamy was practiced culturally, that almost goes without saying. The prohibition is on the spiritual side and it comes from the Lord categorically disavowing that practice in its entirety in Jacob 2.

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Luke
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by Luke »

Shawn Henry wrote: September 25th, 2022, 1:57 am The prohibition is on the spiritual side and it comes from the Lord categorically disavowing that practice in its entirety in Jacob 2.
If there was a “categorical” spiritual prohibition in ancient Israel, then why was polygamy permitted, and in some cases, commanded, in the law of Moses?

Jashon
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by Jashon »

Shawn Henry wrote: September 25th, 2022, 1:57 am
Jashon wrote: September 20th, 2022, 11:36 am The typesetter was John Gilbert, not Grandin. Gilbert made the error.

Anyway, as it says in ATV, Bob Smith et al have pointed out that "fathers" doesn't work culturally for the Israelites because there wasn't a prohibition on polygyny in ancient Israel.
How do we know error from correct version, we don't. What if Oliver made the error first when writing it down and then Joseph corrected it before print versus Oliver writing it down correctly and the printer then made the error. We'll never know.

I think everyone is in agreement that polygamy was practiced culturally, that almost goes without saying. The prohibition is on the spiritual side and it comes from the Lord categorically disavowing that practice in its entirety in Jacob 2.
I'm guessing you haven't read the ATV entry on this. It's worth reading in full, if you haven't.

To be clear, P has singular father in Jacob 3:5 and O isn't extant.

A primitive error is always possible, as you mention, but there is textual support for the singular in Jacob 2:34.

When the dictation occurred, the scribe apparently read back what was written in order to minimize errors. However, errors did enter the text even with readback. As a result, if there is textual support, it can be used to resolve the question of whether O was in error. The singular has textual support in Jacob 2:34. That's important.

Furthermore, OC corrected a mistake in number with commandments > commandment in this same verse, immediately erasing the extra s. So he was being careful in copying from O very close by, double checking his work. A few words later, OC wrote singular father, with no correction. In copying from O, he might have double checked this as he did with commandment.

Thus, an original singular father is more likely than not for this verse. There is no 100%, but it is likely.

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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by LDS Watchman »

Alexander wrote: September 25th, 2022, 12:19 am
Atticus wrote: September 18th, 2022, 6:15 pm
Alexander wrote: September 18th, 2022, 6:08 pm
Atticus wrote: September 18th, 2022, 5:56 pm

Hagar is not referred to as a slave. She was referred to as a handmaid or bond-servant. Sarah gave her to Abraham as his legitimate wife.

Nowhere in all of scripture are Abraham and Sarah chastised over what happened with Hagar. Instead both are praised for their faithfulness. Nothing is said about Abraham taking at least one more concubine, Keturah, in his old age, either.

So your claim that concubines are sex slaves doesn't have a leg to stand on.
Their faithfulness?

God promises Abraham and Sarah they’ll bear a child. When they don’t, because of lack of faith in God’s promise, Sarah pimps Hagar, her slave, to Abraham to bear a child that way. Hagar has a son named Ishmael; it isn’t even the child of promise, it’s a bastard. The child of promise (Isaac) finally comes through Sarah who was promised to have one all along.

Sarah and Abraham f*cked up. Learn from it.
When all else fails, just make stuff up.
Galatians 4:21-31 bud

The son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but the son by the free woman was born by divine promise.
These verses don't say that Abraham and Sarah messed up or had a lack of faith. Abraham was promised to be the father of many nations, not all of them being God's chosen people.

These verses in Galations are simply stating that Ishmael wasn't the chosen lineage and that the destiny of his seed was largely to afflict the house of Israel, which is the chosen seed. While the Galations Paul was writing to where of the house of Israel and the chosen seed. That's it.

No scripture exists that says what you are claiming. Nice try though, bud.

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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by LDS Watchman »

Luke wrote: September 25th, 2022, 6:30 am
Shawn Henry wrote: September 25th, 2022, 1:57 am The prohibition is on the spiritual side and it comes from the Lord categorically disavowing that practice in its entirety in Jacob 2.
If there was a “categorical” spiritual prohibition in ancient Israel, then why was polygamy permitted, and in some cases, commanded, in the law of Moses?
Oh come now Luke, these are of course translation errors. Anything in the Bible (and the Book of Mormon apparently) that disproves the anti-polygs spin on Jacob 2 and D&C 132 are translation errors. :D

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Alexander
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by Alexander »

Atticus wrote: September 25th, 2022, 7:22 am
Alexander wrote: September 25th, 2022, 12:19 am
Atticus wrote: September 18th, 2022, 6:15 pm
Alexander wrote: September 18th, 2022, 6:08 pm

Their faithfulness?

God promises Abraham and Sarah they’ll bear a child. When they don’t, because of lack of faith in God’s promise, Sarah pimps Hagar, her slave, to Abraham to bear a child that way. Hagar has a son named Ishmael; it isn’t even the child of promise, it’s a bastard. The child of promise (Isaac) finally comes through Sarah who was promised to have one all along.

Sarah and Abraham f*cked up. Learn from it.
When all else fails, just make stuff up.
Galatians 4:21-31 bud

The son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but the son by the free woman was born by divine promise.
These verses don't say that Abraham and Sarah messed up or had a lack of faith. Abraham was promised to be the father of many nations, not all of them being God's chosen people.

These verses in Galations are simply stating that Ishmael wasn't the chosen lineage and that the destiny of his seed was largely to afflict the house of Israel, which is the chosen seed. While the Galations Paul was writing to where of the house of Israel and the chosen seed. That's it.

No scripture exists that says what you are claiming. Nice try though, bud.
If God promises me children, and then I go fornicate with a prostitute, and she bears a child, was this the promise?

When you disbelieve or mistrust God, you look for FLESHLY alternatives. Abram and Sarai obtain a promise, and they look for its fulfillment in telestial strength, in the flesh. Anything God calls you to, you can do it in the flesh, or you can do it in the spirit.


Genesis 16:1 after just getting promised an heir of his own loins, Sarai says (verse 2) "hey, clearly the way the Lord wants you to have a child isn't by me since I've been barren, so here. Take my slave and f*ck her and then you can have a child that way". And then what does Abram do? He does exactly what his wife said. IMMEDIATELY after, Sarai says "my WRONG be upon thee; I have given my maid into thy bosom".


Galatians 4 compares the two sons; one who was born of the FLESH, and the other who was born free.


What happens after Ishmael is born? God comes back and says (Genesis 17):
“I am God Almighty;
Walk before Me, and be blameless.
I will make My covenant between Me and you,
And I will multiply you exceedingly.”

God tells Abram that the covenant not only was not made, but that it wasn't made by Ishmael, and that Abram must walk before God and be perfect/blameless/complete (repent and fix yourself Abram, and then my covenant will come into fruition), and rehashes that Abram and Sarai are to be the parents of the child of promise by which the seed and numerous descendants are to be.

"And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be. And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her. Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear? And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee! And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him."


Abram LAUGHS at the idea of a child coming through Sarai (as in disbelief; he cannot fathom a circumstance; he has unbelief in the promise of God), and asks that it be Ishmael, but God tells him again it isn't by Hagar and Ishmael (the flesh) will be by Sarah and by Isaac (liberty) that this covenant comes.

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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by LDS Watchman »

Alexander wrote: September 25th, 2022, 9:05 am
If God promises me children, and then I go fornicate with a prostitute, and she bears a child, was this the promise?
Still just making things up I see.

The Bible refers to Hagar as Abraham's wife and concubine. Nowhere is there even the slightest indication that she was a prostitute.

I don't feel inclined to respond to the rest of your profane and idiotic ramblings.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by Shawn Henry »

Luke wrote: September 25th, 2022, 6:30 am
Shawn Henry wrote: September 25th, 2022, 1:57 am The prohibition is on the spiritual side and it comes from the Lord categorically disavowing that practice in its entirety in Jacob 2.
If there was a “categorical” spiritual prohibition in ancient Israel, then why was polygamy permitted, and in some cases, commanded, in the law of Moses?
Because the cultural laws were already in place and God had to work with them, just like slavery. God telling us to treat our slaves nicely is not his approbation of slavery. He simply knew we wouldn't accept him telling us not to have slaves.

You using Israel's lesser law is not making a good case for a higher and holier law. Why do saints get "lesser laws"? Because they are already in a degree of apostacy for having rejected the higher law.

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Alexander
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by Alexander »

Atticus wrote: September 25th, 2022, 1:21 pm
Alexander wrote: September 25th, 2022, 9:05 am
If God promises me children, and then I go fornicate with a prostitute, and she bears a child, was this the promise?
Still just making things up I see.

The Bible refers to Hagar as Abraham's wife and concubine. Nowhere is there even the slightest indication that she was a prostitute.

I don't feel inclined to respond to the rest of your profane and idiotic ramblings.
It was a hypothetical. “If God promises ME children and then I go fornicate with a prostitute, and she bears a child, was this child of promise?”


lmao what a joke
🤡

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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by LDS Watchman »

Alexander wrote: September 25th, 2022, 2:26 pm
Atticus wrote: September 25th, 2022, 1:21 pm
Alexander wrote: September 25th, 2022, 9:05 am
If God promises me children, and then I go fornicate with a prostitute, and she bears a child, was this the promise?
Still just making things up I see.

The Bible refers to Hagar as Abraham's wife and concubine. Nowhere is there even the slightest indication that she was a prostitute.

I don't feel inclined to respond to the rest of your profane and idiotic ramblings.
It was a hypothetical. “If God promises ME children and then I go fornicate with a prostitute, and she bears a child, was this child of promise?”


lmao what a joke
🤡
The only joke here is you.

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FrankOne
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by FrankOne »

Shawn Henry wrote: September 25th, 2022, 1:57 am
Jashon wrote: September 20th, 2022, 11:36 am The typesetter was John Gilbert, not Grandin. Gilbert made the error.

Anyway, as it says in ATV, Bob Smith et al have pointed out that "fathers" doesn't work culturally for the Israelites because there wasn't a prohibition on polygyny in ancient Israel.
How do we know error from correct version, we don't. What if Oliver made the error first when writing it down and then Joseph corrected it before print versus Oliver writing it down correctly and the printer then made the error. We'll never know.

I think everyone is in agreement that polygamy was practiced culturally, that almost goes without saying. The prohibition is on the spiritual side and it comes from the Lord categorically disavowing that practice in its entirety in Jacob 2.
He categorically disavowed that practice for Jacob and his people and his "father(s)". Christ nullified 90% of the Jewish laws. Who was right? Jehovah or Christ? or.... were they both right for different times and peoples?

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Alexander
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Re: Where are my concubines?

Post by Alexander »

Atticus wrote: September 25th, 2022, 2:36 pm
Alexander wrote: September 25th, 2022, 2:26 pm
Atticus wrote: September 25th, 2022, 1:21 pm
Alexander wrote: September 25th, 2022, 9:05 am
If God promises me children, and then I go fornicate with a prostitute, and she bears a child, was this the promise?
Still just making things up I see.

The Bible refers to Hagar as Abraham's wife and concubine. Nowhere is there even the slightest indication that she was a prostitute.

I don't feel inclined to respond to the rest of your profane and idiotic ramblings.
It was a hypothetical. “If God promises ME children and then I go fornicate with a prostitute, and she bears a child, was this child of promise?”


lmao what a joke
🤡
The only joke here is you.
What a rebuttal wow

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