Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

For discussion of liberty, freedom, government and politics.
randyps
captain of 100
Posts: 573

Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by randyps »

Thinker wrote: September 21st, 2022, 5:59 pm
randyps wrote: September 19th, 2022, 4:35 pm
Thinker wrote: September 19th, 2022, 9:03 am
randyps wrote: September 19th, 2022, 12:05 am
1. Some think the church is corrupt, some think they are navigating rough waters. I believe both but mostly the later. If there is any corruption it is on an individual basis where a secretary may be stealing without anyone knowing or a bishop acting inappropriately all on his own. There is more to this topic but Ill just leave it at that.

2. I can see where you are coming from. You have followed the Law of tithing without bearing witness of its divine command, if you did receive witness of its truthfulness you would not worry about where the "donation" went once it left your hands, you would only know for a surety that the Lord is pleased with your offer.

I have a business client who is 65 yrs old and on a standard (unhealthy american diet) ate his way to diabetes and kidney failure over the years. Would have died had his son not donated a kidney to him. About a month after surgery as I visited his home to do some work on the exterior I saw him wake up in the morning to take the dogs out for a walk, he returned home to sit on the couch with a hot dog, chips and coke as he turned on the T.V.

Did his son do the right thing or not? If the son knew before hand that his dad would continue to eat junk and possibly waste his second chance at life would he have not given his kidney?

In all things I gave you an example, how that so labouring ye ought to help the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.—Acts 20:35.
I appreciate your respectful tone in disagreeing & will try to reciprocate.

By “corruption” I don’t mean at the local level - but at the top - using money gathered in the name of JESUS CHRIST in ways that are not only ungodly but illegal (hoarding charity donations https://www.kuer.org/religion/2019-12-1 ... xempt-fund).

Again… Lds finances are not handled in Christ-like ways.
1) Lds leaders warped scripture to get more money (tithes are supposed to be based on increase not income).
2) They take from the poor by demanding based on income when the poor have no increase left.
3) They disobey the law of tithing (Deut 14:28-29 - which is not taught in curriculum about tithing) - which states that at least 1/3 of tithes are supposed to be given to the poor. See also JST Genesis 14:37-39.
4) Finances are kept secret except Oaks admitted no tithes go to the poor.
5) They use the temple to make money - charging for worthiness. This type of thing is the only time on record when Jesus expressed anger.

You mentioned “ if you did receive witness of its truthfulness you would not worry about where the "donation" went…”
A few considerations:
* Why would truthfulness require giving excess money to people who are NOT honest with their fellow man?
* Is that being wise stewards to knowingly give sacred tithes to people proven to not handle them in godly or even legal ways?
* I have felt the Spirit about giving tithes to those in need. Many have. And common sense, the greatest commandments & morality agree.
* The Spirit is a feeling as are emotions like fear or desire which can be wrapped up in cognitive bias. It is essential to use our God-given brains to DISCERN between emotion & the Spirit. Sometimes it’s easy at least to discern maybe not so easy to do - like when you feel social pressure to obey men (& give money to corrupt leaders in exchange for good social standing)… OR… when you feel the Spirit to obey God & the greatest commandments….
  • ” Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” - Matt 22
Image
You are pretty convinced in your stance and im sure many have tried to argue with you about the law of Tithing in the LDS church.

My last effort to offer some type of perspective is this.

Do you live in America? Do you enjoy the benefits and freedoms of living in America despite the corrupt people in the white house? With that corrupt government is it still worth it to pay taxes in order to live in this Great country? Your answer is YES (or else you would have moved to another country....where you would end up having to pay the taxes of that country)

Gods church is same. We know for a fact in the bible that God established a church and he established tithing. If you are not part of the LDS church paying the LDS tithe then you SHOULD be part of any other church you believe to be Gods paying a tithe there. If not then you are not serving God as he commanded.

ps. Giving a tithe to random charities or homeless on the street is not what God wants, sure you can do those things on your own time and expense but it should be in addition to paying a tithe to his church.
Taxes are legally required. Religious donations are not. Not really a good comparison, though you did make a point about both being corrupt.

We will probably never agree for 1 main reason:
Your god is the church and my god is Truth/Highest GOoD.
Cayman islands have no taxes but youd rather live under corrupt officials that waste your tax money in the USA under the excuse that you are forced. You are not forced, you choose to live in a corrupt country as do I, but not cause im forced rather the pros out weight the cons for me. You pay Biden but your tithes you withhold from God.

I have a real close and personal relationship with God, im also inactive for 7 years so church is not my God, it so happens that God is sending me signs to go back to church not because he needs my money but because he loves me more then I can understand.
Last edited by randyps on September 24th, 2022, 3:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

NummyMilkBottle
captain of 10
Posts: 38

Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by NummyMilkBottle »

I feel the church is undergoing an evolution.

User avatar
BuriedTartaria
Captain of Tartary
Posts: 1904

Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by BuriedTartaria »

NummyMilkBottle wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 9:34 pm I feel the church is undergoing an evolution.
Certainly. The question is, evolution for the better or worse? While I wouldn't share the view, I totally respect your view if you think it's for the better and/or maybe not better, but necessary.

We're all hurting and feeling around in a fallen world to find God. I don't wish animosity or negative vibes on devout, in the boat, members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Bu I do wish there was more room in society, families, and circles of friends to "get" that not all moral people who believe in the Book of Mormon in that LDS boat anymore.

User avatar
Robin Hood
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13112
Location: England

Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by Robin Hood »

Thinker wrote: September 19th, 2022, 8:42 am
Christianlee wrote: September 19th, 2022, 6:38 am
Robin Hood wrote: September 19th, 2022, 2:00 am
Thinker wrote: September 18th, 2022, 2:01 pm I see no sense in paying money to a financially corrupt organization to show loyalty to truth. That’s why I no longer pay money to the lds corporation. There are much better ways to express loyalty to God and truth.

Before when I paid tithing to the church, I did so under pressure… coercion…
1) Tithing settlement
2) No going to temple weddings etc without paying money (using temple$ for gain)
3) Kids sent around to collect tithes
4) Wanted to be considered a member in good standing so I paid money because “everyone else was doing it”
5) I was told I wouldn’t burn in hell if I paid money to the leaders

Just like cults.
Kids were never sent around to collect tithes.
They were sent around to collect fast offerings.
Decons/11-year olds have been sent to collect tithes & fast offerings… same slip… same corrupt black hole where the money goes…

(RH, With how many times I’ve posted this, I’d have thought you’d have this memorized by now… ;) )

Even if you designated fast offerings - the church leaders now say it’s their money and they can use it as they want...

Image
Tithing has to be given to a member of the bishopric.
When the deacons collected fast offerings they used specific envelopes for that. Not the regular donation envelopes/slips.
Surprised you didn't know that.

User avatar
Thinker
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 12975
Location: The Universe - wherever that is.

Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by Thinker »

Robin Hood wrote: September 24th, 2022, 3:43 am
Thinker wrote: September 19th, 2022, 8:42 am
Christianlee wrote: September 19th, 2022, 6:38 am
Robin Hood wrote: September 19th, 2022, 2:00 am

Kids were never sent around to collect tithes.
They were sent around to collect fast offerings.
Decons/11-year olds have been sent to collect tithes & fast offerings… same slip… same corrupt black hole where the money goes…

(RH, With how many times I’ve posted this, I’d have thought you’d have this memorized by now… ;) )

Even if you designated fast offerings - the church leaders now say it’s their money and they can use it as they want...

Image
Tithing has to be given to a member of the bishopric.
When the deacons collected fast offerings they used specific envelopes for that. Not the regular donation envelopes/slips.
Surprised you didn't know that.
Yes, I know they had different (yellow or blue) envelopes but the slips were the same - at least from my experience here.

User avatar
Thinker
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 12975
Location: The Universe - wherever that is.

Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by Thinker »

randyps wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 7:53 pm
Thinker wrote: September 21st, 2022, 5:59 pm
randyps wrote: September 19th, 2022, 4:35 pm
Thinker wrote: September 19th, 2022, 9:03 am
I appreciate your respectful tone in disagreeing & will try to reciprocate.

By “corruption” I don’t mean at the local level - but at the top - using money gathered in the name of JESUS CHRIST in ways that are not only ungodly but illegal (hoarding charity donations https://www.kuer.org/religion/2019-12-1 ... xempt-fund).

Again… Lds finances are not handled in Christ-like ways.
1) Lds leaders warped scripture to get more money (tithes are supposed to be based on increase not income).
2) They take from the poor by demanding based on income when the poor have no increase left.
3) They disobey the law of tithing (Deut 14:28-29 - which is not taught in curriculum about tithing) - which states that at least 1/3 of tithes are supposed to be given to the poor. See also JST Genesis 14:37-39.
4) Finances are kept secret except Oaks admitted no tithes go to the poor.
5) They use the temple to make money - charging for worthiness. This type of thing is the only time on record when Jesus expressed anger.

You mentioned “ if you did receive witness of its truthfulness you would not worry about where the "donation" went…”
A few considerations:
* Why would truthfulness require giving excess money to people who are NOT honest with their fellow man?
* Is that being wise stewards to knowingly give sacred tithes to people proven to not handle them in godly or even legal ways?
* I have felt the Spirit about giving tithes to those in need. Many have. And common sense, the greatest commandments & morality agree.
* The Spirit is a feeling as are emotions like fear or desire which can be wrapped up in cognitive bias. It is essential to use our God-given brains to DISCERN between emotion & the Spirit. Sometimes it’s easy at least to discern maybe not so easy to do - like when you feel social pressure to obey men (& give money to corrupt leaders in exchange for good social standing)… OR… when you feel the Spirit to obey God & the greatest commandments….
  • ” Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” - Matt 22
Image
You are pretty convinced in your stance and im sure many have tried to argue with you about the law of Tithing in the LDS church.

My last effort to offer some type of perspective is this.

Do you live in America? Do you enjoy the benefits and freedoms of living in America despite the corrupt people in the white house? With that corrupt government is it still worth it to pay taxes in order to live in this Great country? Your answer is YES (or else you would have moved to another country....where you would end up having to pay the taxes of that country)

Gods church is same. We know for a fact in the bible that God established a church and he established tithing. If you are not part of the LDS church paying the LDS tithe then you SHOULD be part of any other church you believe to be Gods paying a tithe there. If not then you are not serving God as he commanded.

ps. Giving a tithe to random charities or homeless on the street is not what God wants, sure you can do those things on your own time and expense but it should be in addition to paying a tithe to his church.
Taxes are legally required. Religious donations are not. Not really a good comparison, though you did make a point about both being corrupt.

We will probably never agree for 1 main reason:
Your god is the church and my god is Truth/Highest GOoD.
Cayman islands have no taxes but youd rather live under corrupt officials that waste your tax money in the USA under the excuse that you are forced. You are not forced, you choose to live in a corrupt country as do I, but not cause im forced rather the pros out weight the cons for me. You pay Biden but your tithes you withhold from God.

I have a real close and personal relationship with God, im also inactive for 7 years so church is not my God, it so happens that God is sending me signs to go back to church not because he needs my money but because he loves me more then I can understand.
When you equate paying tithes to the church as paying tithes to God… then the church is indeed your false god.

And God shows love for me & many more people (including Jesus/Yeshua) who don’t go to Mormon church.

Line upon line. For years, the lds church was my false god too. I’m not perfect & no doubt, as Jacob, I still have need to “wrestle” out more mistaken ideas of God.
Last edited by Thinker on September 25th, 2022, 8:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
BeNotDeceived
Agent38
Posts: 8960
Location: Tralfamadore
Contact:

hand-waved

Post by BeNotDeceived »

Lexew1899 wrote: September 19th, 2022, 11:52 am Considering the church college is brainwashing the next generation to be supportive of gay and trans rights, it seems the church doesn’t have a moral leg to stand on. The true church which truly stands for nothing.
There has been no completely true church since 1834, and even then it was built on many falsehoods as per the Pious Fraud theory espoused by Vogel and others.

User avatar
gruden2.0
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1465

Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by gruden2.0 »

randyps wrote: September 19th, 2022, 4:35 pm ps. Giving a tithe to random charities or homeless on the street is not what God wants, sure you can do those things on your own time and expense but it should be in addition to paying a tithe to his church.
I don't really think you're in a position to say this.

You realize when you (or anyone) says 'this is not what God wants' or the opposite, you're putting yourself in a very precarious position. You're elevating yourself to be a mouthpiece for God, which is something you might want to re-think. That's a lot of responsibility to take upon yourself and is, frankly, careless. People say things like that all the time without really thinking through what position they're putting themselves in.

Instead, post some scriptures that support your position, scriptures by men who really did have the authority to express the mind and will of God on such a matter. Right now I suspect God has a great deal more sympathy for the poor and destitute than the doddering old rich men who make a lot of pretense and grind the faces of the poor. Prove me wrong.

User avatar
BuriedTartaria
Captain of Tartary
Posts: 1904

Re: hand-waved

Post by BuriedTartaria »

BeNotDeceived wrote: September 25th, 2022, 8:33 am
Lexew1899 wrote: September 19th, 2022, 11:52 am Considering the church college is brainwashing the next generation to be supportive of gay and trans rights, it seems the church doesn’t have a moral leg to stand on. The true church which truly stands for nothing.
There has been no completely true church since 1834, and even then it was built on many falsehoods as per the Pious Fraud theory espoused by Vogel and others.
Do you think God did anything among that early Mormon moment? Like do you think the Book of Mormon is of God? Is it history? I'm just curious about your view. I'm not going to judge your answer harshly or anything

User avatar
BeNotDeceived
Agent38
Posts: 8960
Location: Tralfamadore
Contact:

Re: hand-waved

Post by BeNotDeceived »

BuriedTartaria wrote: September 25th, 2022, 3:30 pm
BeNotDeceived wrote: September 25th, 2022, 8:33 am
Lexew1899 wrote: September 19th, 2022, 11:52 am Considering the church college is brainwashing the next generation to be supportive of gay and trans rights, it seems the church doesn’t have a moral leg to stand on. The true church which truly stands for nothing.
There has been no completely true church since 1834, and even then it was built on many falsehoods as per the Pious Fraud theory espoused by Vogel and others.
Do you think God did anything among that early Mormon moment? Like do you think the Book of Mormon is of God? Is it history? I'm just curious about your view. I'm not going to judge your answer harshly or anything
Yes, Yes & Yes. Here’s a few links that shed light on my position.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaYDpxPftE4 Pious Fraud

viewtopic.php?t=67781 Seizure of Power

viewtopic.php?t=62280 Joseph in the Gap

march8miracle.org Photo shot from the base of a tupelo.

I was true blue from 1988 thru the early 2000s, then my eyes began to be opened further.

User avatar
mudflap
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3229
Location: The South
Contact:

Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by mudflap »

He may be watching the barn burn, but he's wearing rose colored glasses, sitting inside his own dilapidated house (https://www.foxnews.com/us/hundreds-of- ... misconduct) that is actually burning down around him (http://churchandstate.org.uk/2020/06/u- ... apid-pace/), and also, he's watching the mormon barn burning as reported on CNN.

So, yeah, he's got a perspective, but I don't think it's a correct one.

Sure, our numbers and rates are declining, but not as fast as everyone else's. I think the bottom line is: Mormons need to return to their roots - staying out of debt, loving the US Constitution, promoting freedom, preparing for the destruction that precedes the 2nd coming of Christ (food and personal preparedness), preaching repentance and faith in Jesus Christ - all of which are heavy themes in the Doctrine and Covenants that we don't talk about anymore.

Stop talking about racism (that doesn't exist among the church), stop talking about being "good global citizens" (they forgot that all politics are local), stop supporting the evil UN agendas of man-made global warming and getting jabbed, and stop voting for pedophiles who shower with their daughters.

Out in internet land away from the cozy Utah LDS-facebook groups, I can tell you by experience from rubbing shoulders with decent, non-mormons and Atheists in Europe/Australia/NZ and South America - the most shocking thing they express when they find out I'm mormon is that Mormons no longer store wheat under their beds. I know it's not what you would expect people to think of when they think of modern Mormons, but finding this out sort of blows their whole perspective. And I'm saying: when (or "if"...) we, as a church, return to those roots, we'll have a whole lot more folks want to join up. They are out there waiting.

User avatar
Cruiserdude
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5362
Location: SEKS

Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by Cruiserdude »

mudflap wrote: September 26th, 2022, 8:33 am He may be watching the barn burn, but he's wearing rose colored glasses, sitting inside his own dilapidated house (https://www.foxnews.com/us/hundreds-of- ... misconduct) that is actually burning down around him (http://churchandstate.org.uk/2020/06/u- ... apid-pace/), and also, he's watching the mormon barn burning as reported on CNN.

So, yeah, he's got a perspective, but I don't think it's a correct one.

Sure, our numbers and rates are declining, but not as fast as everyone else's. I think the bottom line is: Mormons need to return to their roots - staying out of debt, loving the US Constitution, promoting freedom, preparing for the destruction that precedes the 2nd coming of Christ (food and personal preparedness), preaching repentance and faith in Jesus Christ - all of which are heavy themes in the Doctrine and Covenants that we don't talk about anymore.

Stop talking about racism (that doesn't exist among the church), stop talking about being "good global citizens" (they forgot that all politics are local), stop supporting the evil UN agendas of man-made global warming and getting jabbed, and stop voting for pedophiles who shower with their daughters.

Out in internet land away from the cozy Utah LDS-facebook groups, I can tell you by experience from rubbing shoulders with decent, non-mormons and Atheists in Europe/Australia/NZ and South America - the most shocking thing they express when they find out I'm mormon is that Mormons no longer store wheat under their beds. I know it's not what you would expect people to think of when they think of modern Mormons, but finding this out sort of blows their whole perspective. And I'm saying: when (or "if"...) we, as a church, return to those roots, we'll have a whole lot more folks want to join up. They are out there waiting.
Couldn't agree more. We've lost our 'peculiarity'.

User avatar
Thinker
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 12975
Location: The Universe - wherever that is.

Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by Thinker »

Cruiserdude wrote: September 26th, 2022, 8:45 am
mudflap wrote: September 26th, 2022, 8:33 am…Mormons need to return to their roots - staying out of debt, loving the US Constitution, promoting freedom, preparing… (food and personal preparedness), preaching repentance and faith in Jesus Christ….
Couldn't agree more. We've lost our 'peculiarity'.
I’m working on it! :P

Image

User avatar
BuriedTartaria
Captain of Tartary
Posts: 1904

Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by BuriedTartaria »

I'm bumping this thread today because I saw more commentary on what some people are perceiving to be a clear decline in the LDS church. A decline as in a decrease in the pound for pound, member for member, healthy testimony of orthodox LDS doctrine, a decline in unity of belief found among the members, a decline in enthusiasm for the ship and for the future.

This thread started using comments from a pastor who clearly feels everything related to Mormonism's uniqueness (the Book of Mormon, Joseph being a prophet at least temporarily enough for the plates to be translated) is fake. He was kind in his criticisms and I think there is a lot of value in his criticisms, but I don't agree with this conclusion that the Book of Mormon is fake.

I know he's a divisive person, but I saw Denver's recent post titled "the Decline of the LDS church". These comments stood out to me a lot because I'm obsessed with the idea of societal decline and eventual societal collapse. I think societal decline is occurring before our eyes. I think it is consequences of sin and prophecy fulfillment. I try to watch all sorts of things (in-person and online, different parts of the political spectrum, I try to get a feel for the room) as I try to make sense of what I believe is palpable societal decline and decay and the loss of a country.

Unlike the Christian pastor this thread started with, Denver believes the Book of Mormon is true. He believes Joseph was a prophet.

I didn't want to make a new thread based on Denver's remarks but I did want to bump this thread just to highlight, that inside the world of faithful Mormonism, and outside of it, people are noticing the decline. It's there. That isn't a statement to bully or dog-pile on the LDS church. I think decline is occurring for many businesses, societies and industries.

Denver's comments link the decline of the LDS church partly to his excommunication in 2014 (I know that will make many groan and roll their eyes, I know it will even make some people seethe and hiss in real anger), I understand for most that immediately starts his comments off on a bad note--and let's be fair here, we should seek to be measured by the same measurement we place on other things, and many would say Denver's following has plenty of problems that could be pointed out and placed in their face, I agree, I'm trying to be consistent and fair in my criticisms of the LDS church--but I still think there is value in a lot of what he said here, just as there is value to the concerns raised by the Christian pastor at the beginning of this thread.

If you live in a boat clearly taking in water and becoming broken beyond repair, and all sorts of neighbors walk past you and tell you they can see the holes and they're concerned, you can ignore it. You might even be in your late 60s-80s and able to ignore the problem for the rest of your mortal life, but your kids are going to have to deal with this issue.

Denver wrote: The evidence of decline of the LDS Church since then has been startling, and is accelerating in almost every measurable category. Member activity has decreased, youth are not serving missions at the same rate, and temple activity has slowed. There is a constant out-flow of disaffected members. I am not cheering this decline on, and mourn to see it underway.

As their decline increases, many of their former members are not content to depart in peace, but hold resentments, even anger at their former church. More often than not, their loss of faith in the LDS Church is not replaced with faith in another Christian denomination or non-Christian religion.
Nothing particularly new said here, but I suppose the core problem (member enthusiasm) isn't new, just getting worse. For the irritation we give True Blues on this forum, they could show some cordiality for us not being more people who throw away everything when we step away from the LDS Church, which continues to be a major problem brought up by Denver and the Christian pastor from earlier in this thread. LDS members who leave seem to largely leave everything related to Christian faith.

Here's the more noteworthy commentary:
Denver wrote: As this decline proceeds it will reach a tipping-point in Utah. As I’ve contemplated this I’ve become increasingly alarmed at the future prospects of social breakdown in Utah. The LDS Church runs Utah. They exert social, economic, political and religious influence in Utah that dominates the state. It provides stability. I do not want to see them failing, and hope their collapse will delayed for as long as possible.
Fred and a few other users here bring this up; Utah is ran by the LDS Church. Denver asks us to consider what will happen to Utah's stability and peace as the LDS Church's decline continues. My father is TRUE BLUE. He gets pissed, he gets furious when people attack orthodox LDSism. I worry about what will happen to him in the future. How much slob will he eat for the sake of "it's just got to be true! The LDS story HAS to be true!"? What will happen to Utah on a state level as people sacrifice who knows what because anything less than building up and standing by orthodox LDSism is unacceptable? Why do devout True Blue LDS people have such a hard time considering that which they haven't considered? Part of the reason is because they've been abused into believing that the only way for the Book of Mormon to be true is for the LDS orthodox story to be true.

I thought Denver's ending, bolded and underlined (emphasis made by me) remark was interesting and will be something a lot of users here agree with;
Denver wrote: I still see value in what the LDS Church did to change my life. Although they are riddled with errors and incapable of needed reform, they do provide a social stability for their active members that is good for society. I hate to see them failing. But I do not see any chance they can reform. Their authority claims are dependent upon Brigham Young, and that position is untenable.

Full comments: https://denversnuffer.com/2022/12/decli ... ds-church/

As I said, I understand that a lot of criticisms Denver brings up against the LDS church could in some shape or form, also be applicable to people who follow his message. I wanted to attach Denver's comments to this thread with the anti-Mormon Christian pastor's comments because irregardless of whether or not I entirely agree with either one of them on everything, I think they're correct in their assessment that we're seeing a decline in the LDS church. I think this decline will become more noticeable and more people will be discussing it. I think the excessive temple building is largely being done to imply strength moving forward, an attempt to galvanize, to try to energize testimonies, but perhaps YOU see it as direction from the Lord and part of holy work. And if you do, I hope you and your family have unity, positive structure and healthy growth in the LDS church.

I want to find the truth in Mormonism, and for me, that sent me down a different road. I believe the world is falling apart and I hope the interpretation of the direct events leading to Christ's Second Coming and the kingdom after that all occurring within a single generation are true. I think there would be real value in people who were alive in the 60s, or the 70s, (or maybe, unfortunately, maybe the 80s or 90s is as far back as it will go) watching their world go down, and then seeing society heal and change under Christ's leadership at his Second Coming. Because you would have a people who could bear witness and say they saw a mighty nation on these lands fall apart. They witnessed the decline as sin became prevalent, they can bare witness to how much healing came and civilization and society became so different in a positive way after Christ's coming. I think there is so much value in that. To have a people who saw peaceful days, saw the rotting in sin that led to collapse and destruction, and then saw the rebirth and they can bear witness of it to their children and their grandchildren.

I think you could have something like that with people from the 20th century living into Christ's Second Coming. I don't think kids being born in the 2020s and them being the older generation when Christ comes would have the same affect. They would be living their childhood in a rotten United States. A hateful place with a weak and dying middle class.

God clearly doesn't need to do things my way, I just hope the Second Coming is near and I think there could be societal and familial value in people from the final decades of the 20th century living through it.

Image

Refraction75
captain of 100
Posts: 567

Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by Refraction75 »

Thinker wrote: September 18th, 2022, 1:21 pm
BuriedTartaria wrote: September 17th, 2022, 6:35 pmThis is a great rundown of the burning down building that is institutional/corporate LDSism by a kind, well-meaning Christian. He touches on a lot of similar topics we discuss. We are insiders walking out of a dilapidated barn that clearly is not what it used to be. He's an outsider watching that barn burn down. If he can see what is going on, there is no way he is the only one. If he can see the writing on the wall, you can be sure others can see the writing on the wall...
Thanks - it’s good to get another perspective. No doubt many - especially mid-age/older lds are troubled by how the church has compromised for worldly reasons. Those who don’t see it seem to be immature/naive or suffer from cognitive bias.

There’s a part where after the guy spoke about how so many have left the church, he said something like “That's a lot of money! Where’s it all going?” It made me wonder if that’s why some Christians are so intent on targeting Mormons - they know they’re good tithing payers.

I have extended family & friends who at times have tried to preach to me how wrong Mormonism is. Often it’s misconstrued & not even the real problems. Eg., They think it’s horrible that Mormons think they can become gods - yet think nothing of the financial corruption. Also, Christianity has its own unquestioned ridiculous/evil dogmatic traditions.

In an ideal world, truth is the aim - even if it means giving up long held doctrines that are basically lies - “old wine bottles.”
I have been rereading the new testament. Some things have really stood out to me in regards to LDS church and Christ's religion.
Look at the mission of the true 12 disciples of Christ....

MATTHEW 10

1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,

10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

(Notice how tithing had no part of their mission. Miracles was a part of their earthly mission, casting out devils and healing the sickness and diseases)

16 ¶ Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

Matthew 12

14 ¶ Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.

(Does this sound familiar if you are a believer in Christ who disagrees with the religious institution stance on things.)

MATTHEW 7

15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

(What stood out to me is a corrupt tree...Why did he say this? A tree that was once good but has over time turned itself corrupt cannot bring forth good fruit. To me this is where the LDS church now finds itself.)


Matthew 12

9 And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue.

10 ¶ And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.

11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?

12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.

14 ¶ Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.

15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;

(What I find really interesting in these versuses is the established churches of the time or synagogues where the
Pharisees and Sadesies preached and recieved money from the people to build such structures.

Christ went into their churches and pulled out followers from their very congregation after preaching about the Sabath day and healing those inside. They were threatened by him because his gospel didn't cost a dime. Even the poor could afford the free gospel of Jesus Christ. Unlike their established synagogues that were build on donations.

I wonder if Christ church was more spiritual in nature...know ye... that ye... are temples of God. Not a physical place but a spiritual place that resides inside of you.)

User avatar
cab
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2986
Location: ♫ I am a Mormon! ♫ And... dang it... a Mormon just believes! ♫

Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by cab »

Refraction75 wrote: December 12th, 2022, 9:32 am
Thinker wrote: September 18th, 2022, 1:21 pm
BuriedTartaria wrote: September 17th, 2022, 6:35 pmThis is a great rundown of the burning down building that is institutional/corporate LDSism by a kind, well-meaning Christian. He touches on a lot of similar topics we discuss. We are insiders walking out of a dilapidated barn that clearly is not what it used to be. He's an outsider watching that barn burn down. If he can see what is going on, there is no way he is the only one. If he can see the writing on the wall, you can be sure others can see the writing on the wall...
Thanks - it’s good to get another perspective. No doubt many - especially mid-age/older lds are troubled by how the church has compromised for worldly reasons. Those who don’t see it seem to be immature/naive or suffer from cognitive bias.

There’s a part where after the guy spoke about how so many have left the church, he said something like “That's a lot of money! Where’s it all going?” It made me wonder if that’s why some Christians are so intent on targeting Mormons - they know they’re good tithing payers.

I have extended family & friends who at times have tried to preach to me how wrong Mormonism is. Often it’s misconstrued & not even the real problems. Eg., They think it’s horrible that Mormons think they can become gods - yet think nothing of the financial corruption. Also, Christianity has its own unquestioned ridiculous/evil dogmatic traditions.

In an ideal world, truth is the aim - even if it means giving up long held doctrines that are basically lies - “old wine bottles.”
I have been rereading the new testament. Some things have really stood out to me in regards to LDS church and Christ's religion.
Look at the mission of the true 12 disciples of Christ....

MATTHEW 10

1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,

10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

(Notice how tithing had no part of their mission. Miracles was a part of their earthly mission, casting out devils and healing the sickness and diseases)

16 ¶ Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

Matthew 12

14 ¶ Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.

(Does this sound familiar if you are a believer in Christ who disagrees with the religious institution stance on things.)

MATTHEW 7

15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

(What stood out to me is a corrupt tree...Why did he say this? A tree that was once good but has over time turned itself corrupt cannot bring forth good fruit. To me this is where the LDS church now finds itself.)


Matthew 12

9 And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue.

10 ¶ And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.

11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?

12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.

14 ¶ Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.

15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;

(What I find really interesting in these versuses is the established churches of the time or synagogues where the
Pharisees and Sadesies preached and recieved money from the people to build such structures.

Christ went into their churches and pulled out followers from their very congregation after preaching about the Sabath day and healing those inside. They were threatened by him because his gospel didn't cost a dime. Even the poor could afford the free gospel of Jesus Christ. Unlike their established synagogues that were build on donations.

I wonder if Christ church was more spiritual in nature...know ye... that ye... are temples of God. Not a physical place but a spiritual place that resides inside of you.)

What if Jesus walked into one of our temple and started preaching or laying his hands on people’s heads in the celestial room or chapel. He’d be physically escorted out and be labeled a nuisance…

Refraction75
captain of 100
Posts: 567

Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by Refraction75 »

cab wrote: December 12th, 2022, 9:36 am
Refraction75 wrote: December 12th, 2022, 9:32 am
Thinker wrote: September 18th, 2022, 1:21 pm
BuriedTartaria wrote: September 17th, 2022, 6:35 pmThis is a great rundown of the burning down building that is institutional/corporate LDSism by a kind, well-meaning Christian. He touches on a lot of similar topics we discuss. We are insiders walking out of a dilapidated barn that clearly is not what it used to be. He's an outsider watching that barn burn down. If he can see what is going on, there is no way he is the only one. If he can see the writing on the wall, you can be sure others can see the writing on the wall...
Thanks - it’s good to get another perspective. No doubt many - especially mid-age/older lds are troubled by how the church has compromised for worldly reasons. Those who don’t see it seem to be immature/naive or suffer from cognitive bias.

There’s a part where after the guy spoke about how so many have left the church, he said something like “That's a lot of money! Where’s it all going?” It made me wonder if that’s why some Christians are so intent on targeting Mormons - they know they’re good tithing payers.

I have extended family & friends who at times have tried to preach to me how wrong Mormonism is. Often it’s misconstrued & not even the real problems. Eg., They think it’s horrible that Mormons think they can become gods - yet think nothing of the financial corruption. Also, Christianity has its own unquestioned ridiculous/evil dogmatic traditions.

In an ideal world, truth is the aim - even if it means giving up long held doctrines that are basically lies - “old wine bottles.”
I have been rereading the new testament. Some things have really stood out to me in regards to LDS church and Christ's religion.
Look at the mission of the true 12 disciples of Christ....

MATTHEW 10

1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,

10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

(Notice how tithing had no part of their mission. Miracles was a part of their earthly mission, casting out devils and healing the sickness and diseases)

16 ¶ Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

Matthew 12

14 ¶ Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.

(Does this sound familiar if you are a believer in Christ who disagrees with the religious institution stance on things.)

MATTHEW 7

15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

(What stood out to me is a corrupt tree...Why did he say this? A tree that was once good but has over time turned itself corrupt cannot bring forth good fruit. To me this is where the LDS church now finds itself.)


Matthew 12

9 And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue.

10 ¶ And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.

11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?

12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.

14 ¶ Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.

15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;

(What I find really interesting in these versuses is the established churches of the time or synagogues where the
Pharisees and Sadesies preached and recieved money from the people to build such structures.

Christ went into their churches and pulled out followers from their very congregation after preaching about the Sabath day and healing those inside. They were threatened by him because his gospel didn't cost a dime. Even the poor could afford the free gospel of Jesus Christ. Unlike their established synagogues that were build on donations.

I wonder if Christ church was more spiritual in nature...know ye... that ye... are temples of God. Not a physical place but a spiritual place that resides inside of you.)

What if Jesus walked into one of our temple and started preaching or laying his hands on people’s heads in the celestial room or chapel. He’d be physically escorted out and be labeled a nuisance…
Exactly correct! I am beginning to see the parallels between his time and our time. With our LDS church. We are honestly acting no better than the Pharisees.

Refraction75
captain of 100
Posts: 567

Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by Refraction75 »

Honestly I am just trying to go back through and figure out what the heck Christ established way back then in a non LDS and non established religion perspective. Having been LDS most of my life I'm not to excited to jump into another Christian religion that collects money by donations to feed themselves. I feel Christ gave his two great commandments and I am a big boy now and I can figure out how to give money to the poor directly. Without someone managing it for me and taking money out for their time like most non profits do.

Refraction75
captain of 100
Posts: 567

Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by Refraction75 »

Does anyone else feel leaving the LDS faith and going into a Christian church just putting your foot back into the bear trap?
Last edited by Refraction75 on December 13th, 2022, 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

logonbump
captain of 100
Posts: 791

Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by logonbump »

Refraction75 wrote: December 12th, 2022, 11:41 pm Does anyone else feel leaving the LDS faith and going into a Christian church jutting your foot back into the bear trap?
I left the roles of the Corp. Now I feel like identifying as a Samaritan or a Jew, more than as a modern deaf and blind so-called Christian.

Messiah comes? I'll know him when I see him. Will the LDS? Not so easily...

User avatar
BeNotDeceived
Agent38
Posts: 8960
Location: Tralfamadore
Contact:

hand-wave

Post by BeNotDeceived »

logonbump wrote: December 13th, 2022, 12:42 am
Refraction75 wrote: December 12th, 2022, 11:41 pm Does anyone else feel leaving the LDS faith and going into a Christian church jutting your foot back into the bear trap?
I left the roles of the Corp. Now I feel like identifying as a Samaritan or a Jew, more than as a modern deaf and blind so-called Christian.

Messiah comes? I'll know him when I see him. Will the LDS? Not so easily...
The servant precedes him.

logonbump
captain of 100
Posts: 791

Re: hand-wave

Post by logonbump »

BeNotDeceived wrote: December 13th, 2022, 3:45 am
logonbump wrote: December 13th, 2022, 12:42 am
Refraction75 wrote: December 12th, 2022, 11:41 pm Does anyone else feel leaving the LDS faith and going into a Christian church jutting your foot back into the bear trap?
I left the roles of the Corp. Now I feel like identifying as a Samaritan or a Jew, more than as a modern deaf and blind so-called Christian.

Messiah comes? I'll know him when I see him. Will the LDS? Not so easily...
The servant precedes him.
The prophecied servant sent to precede Christ the King is Messiah Ben Joseph

Refraction75
captain of 100
Posts: 567

Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by Refraction75 »

There is someone in the Jewish rabbi community performing miracles right now.

FoundMyEden
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1240

Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by FoundMyEden »

Refraction75 wrote: December 12th, 2022, 11:41 pm Does anyone else feel leaving the LDS faith and going into a Christian church just putting your foot back into the bear trap?
I’ve attended a few different denominations where I felt the spirit strongly. It wasn’t a regular occurrence but the Lord definitely let me know he was amongst the believers.

FoundMyEden
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1240

Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by FoundMyEden »

Refraction75 wrote: December 13th, 2022, 4:17 pm There is someone in the Jewish rabbi community performing miracles right now.
Can you expand on this?

Post Reply