ישעיהו

[AkalAish]

Shalom...

I am not at all certain if this is the correct location for this thread. If it is not, kindly forgive me. I did not mean to cause a kerfuffle.

I have been asked my thoughts on Isaiah. It is an intriguing topic, and one (I believe) resonates in diverse ways with LDS adherents. I thought it would behoove us to have a small space carved out in this forum to have a conversation about such an amazing man and prophet.

All (respectful) musings, inquiries, and discussions are welcome. As the man himself said, "Come, let us reason together."

[solonan]

Interesting topic. I think there are several on this forum who have studied Isaiah using tools taught by Avraham Gileadi. He was taught in rabbi school in Israel and has several books out now on Isaiah.

[marc]

Shalom and welcome! I love Isaiah. Favorite book in the canon. I've been studying ten years now and still just getting the hang of it. I started a discussion about it years ago on this forum. A professor-who did his doctoral thesis on a seven part literary structure discovered throughout the book of Isaiah-has been a great help to me. He created his own translation from the Masoretic text.

[solonan]

Question. What is the meaning of the red heifers that showed up in Israel yesterday? They are for purification is all I know.

[mike_rumble]

I know this is an LDS forum, but the biggest mistake we 'Mormons' make is thinking that Isaiah's prophecies are for the LDS Church. I don't believe they are. Isaiah is addressed to all believers (of any 'Christian' church) in particular and to all the nations of the earth in general. By the way, those Red Heifers have been showing up in Israel for many years, not just recently. It's been commented on by various Bible scholars from time to time.

[Niemand]

I know this is an LDS forum, but the biggest mistake we 'Mormons' make is thinking that Isaiah's prophecies are for the LDS Church. I don't believe they are. Isaiah is addressed to all believers (of any 'Christian' church) in particular and to all the nations of the earth in general. By the way, those Red Heifers have been showing up in Israel for many years, not just recently. It's been commented on by various Bible scholars from time to time.

My understanding is that they have to be unblemished. So no nicks in the ears, white hairs or spots and bruises. It would be hard to find any that were.

[BeNotDeceived]

I know this is an LDS forum, but the biggest mistake we 'Mormons' make is thinking that Isaiah's prophecies are for the LDS Church. I don't believe they are. Isaiah is addressed to all believers (of any 'Christian' church) in particular and to all the nations of the earth in general. By the way, those Red Heifers have been showing up in Israel for many years, not just recently. It's been commented on by various Bible scholars from time to time.

My understanding is that they have to be unblemished. So no nicks in the ears, white hairs or spots and bruises. It would be hard to find any that were.

See article at link: viewtopic.php?p=1303378#p1303378

[marc]

I know this is an LDS forum, but the biggest mistake we 'Mormons' make is thinking that Isaiah's prophecies are for the LDS Church. I don't believe they are. Isaiah is addressed to all believers (of any 'Christian' church) in particular and to all the nations of the earth in general. By the way, those Red Heifers have been showing up in Israel for many years, not just recently. It's been commented on by various Bible scholars from time to time.

You're painting with a broad brush stroke. I don't know any members who believe Isaiah's words apply exclusively to LDS, but Isaiah surely addressed Ephraim as well as Judah. It's all connected.

[Niemand]

I know this is an LDS forum, but the biggest mistake we 'Mormons' make is thinking that Isaiah's prophecies are for the LDS Church. I don't believe they are. Isaiah is addressed to all believers (of any 'Christian' church) in particular and to all the nations of the earth in general. By the way, those Red Heifers have been showing up in Israel for many years, not just recently. It's been commented on by various Bible scholars from time to time.

My understanding is that they have to be unblemished. So no nicks in the ears, white hairs or spots and bruises. It would be hard to find any that were.

See article at link: viewtopic.php?p=1303378#p1303378

Yes, I've seen this, but good luck getting cattle of the right age without blemishes.

[AkalAish]

Shalom and welcome! I love Isaiah. Favorite book in the canon. I've been studying ten years now and still just getting the hang of it. I started a discussion about it years ago on this forum. A professor-who did his doctoral thesis on a seven part literary structure discovered throughout the book of Isaiah-has been a great help to me. He created his own translation from the Masoretic text.

I am quite certain I cannot approach the level of understanding of Rev Gileadi. Isaiah is a profound oubliette of great mystery in some regards. When one considers the PaRDeS of interpretation.

Actually...that might prove to be a fascinating topic in and of itself. Hmmmm...

I love all of you already. Shalom.

Rabbi Yered

[solonan]

Please continue Rabbi. Explain PaRDeS please. I was introduced to it and am interested in learning more. I think as we continue on any subject scripturally we should use all the tools in the toolbox we know of .

[AkalAish]

Please continue Rabbi. Explain PaRDeS please. I was introduced to it and am interested in learning more. I think as we continue on any subject scripturally we should use all the tools in the toolbox we know of .

PaRDeS.

Basically it is Jewish biblical exegesis (one could make an argument that it is hermeneutical rather than exegetical, but who wants to put such a fine point on it? ).

It pertains to deepening layers of meaning within sacred text.

The "P" is for Peshat. This is the most surface interpretation or literal meaning of the text.

The "R" is for Remez. With this we get into allusions that are veiled in meaning.

The "D" is for D'rash. This is all about interpretation of the text that is primarily homiletical in nature. We could call Jesus' Beatitudes, or Sermon on the Mount, the "D'rash" on the Mount.

Finally, the "S" is for Sod. This is the very deepest and most profound meaning. It is mystery by nature and requires direct interpretation from the Holy One, blessed be He. Kabbalah. True Kabbalah...not the Madonna/Hollywood/Trendy version.

Clear as mud?

[solonan]

Actually, clear as running water. I get it. You take literally like the history in Isaiah and it is Peshat.
Remez is the hidden deeper meaning, taking the first chapter where G-d is speaking, listen heavens and earth, this is a court case and they become the witnesses. The ox is a kosher animal so refers to the house of Israel and the @#$ is an unclean animal and refers to the gentiles..
D'rash is a layer over that. It refers then to the waywardness of the people in terms of his covenants.
Sod is the flashes of understanding you get when studying scripture.
Did I understand correctly?

[Niemand]

Please continue Rabbi. Explain PaRDeS please. I was introduced to it and am interested in learning more. I think as we continue on any subject scripturally we should use all the tools in the toolbox we know of .

PaRDeS.

Basically it is Jewish biblical exegesis (one could make an argument that it is hermeneutical rather than exegetical, but who wants to put such a fine point on it? ).

It pertains to deepening layers of meaning within sacred text.

The "P" is for Peshat. This is the most surface interpretation or literal meaning of the text.

The "R" is for Remez. With this we get into allusions that are veiled in meaning.

The "D" is for D'rash. This is all about interpretation of the text that is primarily homiletical in nature. We could call Jesus' Beatitudes, or Sermon on the Mount, the "D'rash" on the Mount.

Finally, the "S" is for Sod. This is the very deepest and most profound meaning. It is mystery by nature and requires direct interpretation from the Holy One, blessed be He. Kabbalah. True Kabbalah...not the Madonna/Hollywood/Trendy version.

Clear as mud?

I'm aware of Pardes(h) and have tried applied it to the Book of Mormon and elsewhere.

I have also heard it said that true scripture contains a past, present and future meaning, and I go at it that way too. In Mormonism we often try and apply it in a personal context and I think Jews do too, so the Exodus from Egypt might be interpreted as the believer leaving the imprisonment by sin and unrighteousness represented by Egypt. (Ditto Babylon which many of us see, not just as a Middle Eastern city, but also the embodiment of worldly evil and secular authority.)

I would be interested in your views on the Book of Enoch and the so called Apocryphal books such as the Maccabees, Esdras books and so on.

p.s. Madonna is a moron. I think we can agree on that. It is clear from her lifestyle she is not spiritually attuned, at least not to Biblical practices.

[solonan]

Geez Louise Niemand, I missed something how did Madonna slide into this?

[solonan]

I have a question about rabbis...rabbi Jonathon Sacks states that the Christians took up the idea of priesthood but the Jews, after the destruction of the temple went with scholarship, ie. Rabbinical teaching. He says there are no ordained rabbis. I understand there are several types/forms of hebraic thought and they go from orthodox -- (several breaks in that alone) to reform and then messianic. Which ordain their rabbis? What form of jewry are you?

[Alaris]

We are mostly Ephraim. Jewish only comes here from time to time. Mostly Ephraim hang way too much on Jesus Christ. I was talking with a Jew who thinks there are two Messiah and guesses he's one of Judah (which is hilarious) and the other is a Levite. He had an interesting question. Jesus Christ because He could never own land here because he has no father. Duh! There is so much the Jewish hold onto and there's so much that the Ephraim holds onto as well. You're both right and you're both wrong, yet in opposite places.

We keep saying the law of Moses is fulfilled - great! What about the seven High Holy Days? We would believe that the spring days were fulfilled through Jesus Christ. Yay! Except there is only one Christ who is an Atonement. The Old Testament says there are two.

Zechariah 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth

Oops

What happened to the 12 tribes where there is one tribe that ... What? Becomes the firstborn? Joseph and the coat of many colors.

I've truly found an answer ... The Messiah Ben David, which is Jesus Christ, and The Messiah Ben Joseph or the King Messiah. Of course! This is it! Mormons have plenty of Ephraim...(Joseph Smith was our only Prophet ... and then...)

So it comes down to Pride vs Humility

(Jesus is talking...)
Matthew 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

So....the Jews have a Kingdom looking for a King ... Great! But, only the blessed are the poor in spirit because only theirs is the way open.

The Ephraim thinks we already have a King! But, Jesus Christ would never descend to a Kingdom for Him....there is another King. Only the poorest of poor will know. There will be Jewish in the poor and there will be Ephraim in the poor.

3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.

One is from Ephraim and one that is from Judah. Oh yeah...

19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

Mormons mostly get that incorrect. They say it's the Joseph Smith gathering together, but you won't find anything from Joseph Smith.

[SPIRIT]

I know this is an LDS forum, but the biggest mistake we 'Mormons' make is thinking that Isaiah's prophecies are for the LDS Church. I don't believe they are. Isaiah is addressed to all believers (of any 'Christian' church) in particular and to all the nations of the earth in general. By the way, those Red Heifers have been showing up in Israel for many years, not just recently. It's been commented on by various Bible scholars from time to time.

actually,
much, if not most of Isaiah - IS directed to the Lord's end-time covenant people -
the restored Gentile LDS church - who have lapsed into APOSTASY.

And this is what the Lord says about apostasy - *
(through His prophet Isaiah - who He said "for great are the words of Isaiah.")
about the apostasy of His church -
The Lord's covenanted end-time people. - who have lapsed into apostasy.

The very first Chapter of Isaiah verse 4 reveals that this.

***Israel’s ancient apostasy typifies an end-time apostasy, with salvation reserved for some who repent.


as I've said before -
Does the church take The Book of Mormon seriously anymore ?

The reason why I ask this question is -
wouldn't you think - that if the Lord actually gave us a commandment in The Book of Mormon -
to not only read, but to "search these things diligently - the words of Isaiah - "for great are the words of Isaiah." -
that it would be important enough that the church would think this was very important,
and emphasize this same commandment ?
The Lord didn't tell us to do this just to give us a nice history listen.
The Lord wouldn't have given this - A COMMANDMENT if it wasn't important and going to apply to us today.
THIS IS THE LORD JESUS CHRIST TALKING AND GIVING US A COMMANDMENT ! - not just some quote
from so-called prophet or someone,
so we'd better listen, and keep this commandment.

HAVE BEEN AND SHALL BE"

3 "And all things that he spake (HAVE BEEN AND SHALL BE),
even according to the words which he spake." 3 Nephi 23.

So what the Lord is saying is first,
Yea, a commandment I give unto
you that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah.,"
and that, the things that Isaiah is saying are still in the future
"AND SHALL BE even according to the words which he spake." !

3 Nephi 23:1- 4
1 "And now, behold, I say unto you,
that ye ought to search these things.
Yea, a commandment I give unto
you that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."

2 "For surely he spake as touching all things
concerning my people which are of the house of Israel;
therefore it must needs be that he must speak
also to the Gentiles."

3 "And all things that he spake have been - and shall be,
even according to the words which he spake."

4 "Therefore give heed to my words;
write the things which I have told you;
and according to the time and the will
of the Father they shall go forth unto the Gentiles."

3 Nephi 20:11
11 "Ye remember that I spake unto you,
and said that when the words of Isaiah
should be fulfilled—behold they are written,
ye have them before you, therefore search them-"


"HAVE BEEN AND SHALL BE"
********** Isaiah uses what are called types from the past to show the future.
What has happened before, will happen again.

ALL THE PROPHECIES OF ISAIAH PERTAIN TO US TODAY
All prophecies in Isaiah are prophecies of the last days.

Isaiah 44:7
7 "Who predicts what happens as do I, and is the equal of me in
appointing a people from of old as types, foretelling things to come?

Isaiah 46
10 I foretell the end from the beginning,
from ancient times things not yet done.
I speak, and my purposes take effect;
I accomplish all my will.


So, isn't it just a little more than just a coincidence,
that here - first we were put under condemnation for treating the Book of Mormon lightly,
and when we search the Book of Mormon we have the Lord giving us this commandment
to "search diligently" the words of Isaiah,
and when we do, and start to read Isaiah,
what do we find in the very 1st Chapter of the Book ?
We find that Isaiah begins his book with our apostasy.
Hmm - now that's interesting isn't it.

Referring to our church and the sad condition we are in,
Isaiah begins his book speaking to us,
Ephraim, or the church today.

Isaiah 1:2-5
Description of modern Ephraim
(addressing our church he calls Israel)

2 Hear, O heavens! Give heed, O earth!
Jehovah has spoken:I have reared sons,
brought them up,but they have revolted against me.
3 The ox knows its owner,the donkey its master’s stall,
but Israel does not know; my people are insensible.

***
4 Alas, a nation astray, a people weighed down by sin, the offspring of wrongdoers, perverse children:
they have forsaken Jehovah, they have spurned the Holy One of Israel, they have lapsed into APOSTASY.

From addressing his people personally as “Israel . . . my people” (v 3), Jehovah now addresses them impersonally as “a nation,” signifying their alienated state. Additionally, a regression occurs from his people’s simply going “astray” to their burdening themselves with “sin,” which, over time, ends in outright “wrongdoing.” That occurs collectively and generationally.
The “offspring of wrongdoers” turn into “perverse children,” meaning that the rising generation has by now become thoroughly corrupt. “Forsaking” Jehovah and “spurning” him finally become conscious and deliberate acts.

They have lapsed into apostasy. Hebrew nazoru ahor signifies that Jehovah’s people have become entirely “estranged” from him.
They have “gone backwards” to what they used to be before they became Jehovah’s covenant people, when they didn’t know their God. In effect, they have become godless again like the world’s heathen nations, but now more so because they have rejected the light they once had.
The apostasy into which they began to backslide a generation ago is now complete.
As a consequence, instead of enjoying the blessings of the covenant, they must suffer its curses."



EVERYTHING IN THE BOOK OF ISAIAH IS SPEAKING TO THE LORD'S END-TIME PEOPLE -
(US - OUR CORRUPT CHURCH TODAY.)


10 Hear the word of Jehovah, O leaders of Sodom; give heed to the law of our God, you people of Gomorrah!

To call Jehovah’s people and their leaders by the names Sodom and Gomorrah
is to compare their moral degeneracy to that of those cities’ ancient inhabitants.
As the leaders of a people generally reflect the people themselves, and as the political and ecclesiastical leaders of Jehovah’s people parallel each other in the Book of Isaiah, their spiritual condition holds little hope for the rising generation. When things reach that point, Jehovah’s people are fortunate indeed if Jehovah offers them a last warning. For those who accept it, there may yet be a chance of deliverance; otherwise, their destruction is assured.

Hear the word of Jehovah . . . give heed to the law of our God.
Knowing that Jehovah does nothing unless he reveals his secret to his servants the prophets (Amos 3:7),
he sends a warning voice before destroying his people.
In the Book of Isaiah, that warning voice is Jehovah’s servant, of whom Isaiah is a type.
Pointing them to Jehovah’s “law” and “word—to the terms of his covenant—the servant directs them to the one thing that has the power to reverse their circumstances. Replacing current aberrant religious practices with keeping Jehovah’s law and word remains his people’s only hope.


21 How the faithful city has become a harlot!
She was filled with justice; righteousness made its abode in her, but now murderers.

Foreseeing his people’s imminent calamity because they choose not to repent, the prophet grieves for them, the word “How” characterizing a lament (Lamentations 1:1; 2:1; 4:1). In other words, the prophet is asking, “How could this tragedy have happened? How is it that this people didn’t repent in time? How could those who were once righteous become so wicked?” The term “harlot” attests to their broken covenant relationship with Jehovah their husband (Isaiah 57:3-13). Besides identifying a specific place, the term “city” represents Jehovah’s covenant people in general (Isaiah 45:13; 60:14).

She was filled with justice. Righteousness made her abode in her, but now murderers. “Justice” (mispat) and “righteousness” (sedeq)—the basis of all covenant blessings and the underpinnings of a law-abiding society—have given way to injustice and unrighteousness. The term “murderers” reiterates the level of wickedness to which Jehovah’s people have sunk. The term righteousness additionally identifies Jehovah’s end-time servant who acts as an exemplar of righteousness to Jehovah’s people (Isaiah 41:2, 25; 46:11-13) and whom Jehovah appoints to restore justice in the earth (Isaiah 42:1-4).

[SPIRIT]

I know this is an LDS forum, but the biggest mistake we 'Mormons' make is thinking that Isaiah's prophecies are for the LDS Church. I don't believe they are. Isaiah is addressed to all believers (of any 'Christian' church) in particular and to all the nations of the earth in general. By the way, those Red Heifers have been showing up in Israel for many years, not just recently. It's been commented on by various Bible scholars from time to time.

actually,
much, if not most of Isaiah - IS directed to the Lord's end-time covenant people -
the restored Gentile LDS church - who have lapsed into APOSTASY.

And this is what the Lord says about apostasy - *
(through His prophet Isaiah - who He said "for great are the words of Isaiah.")
about the apostasy of His church -
The Lord's covenanted end-time people. - who have lapsed into apostasy.

The very first Chapter of Isaiah verse 4 reveals that this.

***Israel’s ancient apostasy typifies an end-time apostasy, with salvation reserved for some who repent.


as I've said before -
Does the church take The Book of Mormon seriously anymore ?

The reason why I ask this question is -
wouldn't you think - that if the Lord actually gave us a commandment in The Book of Mormon -
to not only read, but to "search these things diligently - the words of Isaiah - "for great are the words of Isaiah." -
that it would be important enough that the church would think this was very important,
and emphasize this same commandment ?
The Lord didn't tell us to do this just to give us a nice history listen.
The Lord wouldn't have given this - A COMMANDMENT if it wasn't important and going to apply to us today.
THIS IS THE LORD JESUS CHRIST TALKING AND GIVING US A COMMANDMENT ! - not just some quote
from so-called prophet or someone,
so we'd better listen, and keep this commandment.

HAVE BEEN AND SHALL BE"

3 "And all things that he spake (HAVE BEEN AND SHALL BE),
even according to the words which he spake." 3 Nephi 23.

So what the Lord is saying is first,
Yea, a commandment I give unto
you that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah.,"
and that, the things that Isaiah is saying are still in the future
"AND SHALL BE even according to the words which he spake." !

3 Nephi 23:1- 4
1 "And now, behold, I say unto you,
that ye ought to search these things.
Yea, a commandment I give unto
you that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."

2 "For surely he spake as touching all things
concerning my people which are of the house of Israel;
therefore it must needs be that he must speak
also to the Gentiles."

3 "And all things that he spake have been - and shall be,
even according to the words which he spake."

4 "Therefore give heed to my words;
write the things which I have told you;
and according to the time and the will
of the Father they shall go forth unto the Gentiles."

3 Nephi 20:11
11 "Ye remember that I spake unto you,
and said that when the words of Isaiah
should be fulfilled—behold they are written,
ye have them before you, therefore search them-"


"HAVE BEEN AND SHALL BE"
********** Isaiah uses what are called types from the past to show the future.
What has happened before, will happen again.

ALL THE PROPHECIES OF ISAIAH PERTAIN TO US TODAY
All prophecies in Isaiah are prophecies of the last days.

Isaiah 44:7
7 "Who predicts what happens as do I, and is the equal of me in
appointing a people from of old as types, foretelling things to come?

Isaiah 46
10 I foretell the end from the beginning,
from ancient times things not yet done.
I speak, and my purposes take effect;
I accomplish all my will.


So, isn't it just a little more than just a coincidence,
that here - first we were put under condemnation for treating the Book of Mormon lightly,
and when we search the Book of Mormon we have the Lord giving us this commandment
to "search diligently" the words of Isaiah,
and when we do, and start to read Isaiah,
what do we find in the very 1st Chapter of the Book ?
We find that Isaiah begins his book with our apostasy.
Hmm - now that's interesting isn't it.

Referring to our church and the sad condition we are in,
Isaiah begins his book speaking to us,
Ephraim, or the church today.

Isaiah 1:2-5
Description of modern Ephraim
(addressing our church he calls Israel)

2 Hear, O heavens! Give heed, O earth!
Jehovah has spoken:I have reared sons,
brought them up,but they have revolted against me.
3 The ox knows its owner,the donkey its master’s stall,
but Israel does not know; my people are insensible.

***
4 Alas, a nation astray, a people weighed down by sin, the offspring of wrongdoers, perverse children:
they have forsaken Jehovah, they have spurned the Holy One of Israel, they have lapsed into APOSTASY.

From addressing his people personally as “Israel . . . my people” (v 3), Jehovah now addresses them impersonally as “a nation,” signifying their alienated state. Additionally, a regression occurs from his people’s simply going “astray” to their burdening themselves with “sin,” which, over time, ends in outright “wrongdoing.” That occurs collectively and generationally.
The “offspring of wrongdoers” turn into “perverse children,” meaning that the rising generation has by now become thoroughly corrupt. “Forsaking” Jehovah and “spurning” him finally become conscious and deliberate acts.

They have lapsed into apostasy. Hebrew nazoru ahor signifies that Jehovah’s people have become entirely “estranged” from him.
They have “gone backwards” to what they used to be before they became Jehovah’s covenant people, when they didn’t know their God. In effect, they have become godless again like the world’s heathen nations, but now more so because they have rejected the light they once had.
The apostasy into which they began to backslide a generation ago is now complete.
As a consequence, instead of enjoying the blessings of the covenant, they must suffer its curses."



EVERYTHING IN THE BOOK OF ISAIAH IS SPEAKING TO THE LORD'S END-TIME PEOPLE -
(US - OUR CORRUPT CHURCH TODAY.)


10 Hear the word of Jehovah, O leaders of Sodom; give heed to the law of our God, you people of Gomorrah!

To call Jehovah’s people and their leaders by the names Sodom and Gomorrah
is to compare their moral degeneracy to that of those cities’ ancient inhabitants.
As the leaders of a people generally reflect the people themselves, and as the political and ecclesiastical leaders of Jehovah’s people parallel each other in the Book of Isaiah, their spiritual condition holds little hope for the rising generation. When things reach that point, Jehovah’s people are fortunate indeed if Jehovah offers them a last warning. For those who accept it, there may yet be a chance of deliverance; otherwise, their destruction is assured.

Hear the word of Jehovah . . . give heed to the law of our God.
Knowing that Jehovah does nothing unless he reveals his secret to his servants the prophets (Amos 3:7),
he sends a warning voice before destroying his people.
In the Book of Isaiah, that warning voice is Jehovah’s servant, of whom Isaiah is a type.
Pointing them to Jehovah’s “law” and “word—to the terms of his covenant—the servant directs them to the one thing that has the power to reverse their circumstances. Replacing current aberrant religious practices with keeping Jehovah’s law and word remains his people’s only hope.


21 How the faithful city has become a harlot!
She was filled with justice; righteousness made its abode in her, but now murderers.

Foreseeing his people’s imminent calamity because they choose not to repent, the prophet grieves for them, the word “How” characterizing a lament (Lamentations 1:1; 2:1; 4:1). In other words, the prophet is asking, “How could this tragedy have happened? How is it that this people didn’t repent in time? How could those who were once righteous become so wicked?” The term “harlot” attests to their broken covenant relationship with Jehovah their husband (Isaiah 57:3-13). Besides identifying a specific place, the term “city” represents Jehovah’s covenant people in general (Isaiah 45:13; 60:14).

She was filled with justice. Righteousness made her abode in her, but now murderers. “Justice” (mispat) and “righteousness” (sedeq)—the basis of all covenant blessings and the underpinnings of a law-abiding society—have given way to injustice and unrighteousness. The term “murderers” reiterates the level of wickedness to which Jehovah’s people have sunk. The term righteousness additionally identifies Jehovah’s end-time servant who acts as an exemplar of righteousness to Jehovah’s people (Isaiah 41:2, 25; 46:11-13) and whom Jehovah appoints to restore justice in the earth (Isaiah 42:1-4).

Isaiah's words "shall be of great worth unto them in the last days"
2 Nephi 25

Wherefore, hearken, O my people, which are of the house of Israel, and give ear unto my words;
for because the words of Isaiah are not plain unto you,
nevertheless they are plain unto all those that are filled with the spirit of prophecy
(2 Nephi 25:4) in part

7 But behold, I proceed with mine own prophecy, according to my plainness;
in the which I know that no man can err; nevertheless, in the days that the prophecies of Isaiah shall be fulfilled
men shall know of a surety, at the times when they shall come to pass.

8 Wherefore, they are of worth unto the children of men,
and he that supposeth that they are not,
unto them will I speak particularly, and confine the words
unto mine own people; for I know that they
shall be of great worth unto them in the last days;
for in that day shall they understand them;
wherefore, for their good have I written them.

Mormon 8:
23 Search the prophecies of Isaiah.
Behold, I cannot write them. Yea, behold I say unto you, that those saints who have gone before me, who have possessed this land, shall cry, yea, even from the dust will they cry unto the Lord; and as the Lord liveth he will remember the covenant which he hath made with them.

[mike_rumble]

Isaiah's words are directed to all of the so called "christian" churches, which includes the LDS Church. All have turned their backs on God and on his Commandments from the beginning down to these latter days. We like to think we are still a special people. We like to call ourselves "Israel" or "The Kingdom of God on earth" and so on. Every other church and denomination has gone down this same road at one time or another. We could have been God's people, but I am afraid that opportunity has passed us by. We aspired to become like other "christians" and we got our what we wanted. There is still time for repentence both in the Church and in our Nations, but time will run out at some point and all that will be left, will be judgement and destruction.

[AkalAish]

I have a question about rabbis...rabbi Jonathon Sacks states that the Christians took up the idea of priesthood but the Jews, after the destruction of the temple went with scholarship, ie. Rabbinical teaching. He says there are no ordained rabbis. I understand there are several types/forms of hebraic thought and they go from orthodox -- (several breaks in that alone) to reform and then messianic. Which ordain their rabbis? What form of jewry are you?

This is an interesting question. Rabbi Lord Sacks, of blessed memory, was a profound thinking as well as shaper of the modern orthodox movement. He was a man of profound love and wisdom, in my opinion. I had not heard his thoughts on ordination regarding rabbis. He certainly was not one to outright reject titles. But...titles are a messy business as is identity. Labels are burdensome for many.

There was, indeed, a remarkable shift following the destruction of the Beit HaMikdash HaSheni. What were we to do? So many of the mitzvot require a temple as well as the Levitical priesthood to be fulfilled. To not follow the commandments and statutes of Adonai would be unthinkable, but without a practical way of doing so, our people found ourselves -- to quote from Winston Churchill -- facing a "riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma." The answer that slowly emerged across centuries was to turn to meritorious works rather than sacrificial. No temple = no sacrifices. But! We could sacrifice our time and our energies toward fulfilling the Shema...

וְאָ֣הַבְתָּ֔ אֵ֖ת יְהוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֶ֑יךָ בְּכָל־לְבָבְךָ֥ וּבְכָל־נַפְשְׁךָ֖ וּבְכָל־מְאֹדֶֽך

...You shall love Adonai your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

Today, there are nearly as many "flavors" of Judaism as there are Christianity. The main being Orthodox (I would say Chabad is Orthodox-esque, but that is a conversation for another time), Conservative, Reform, Humanistic, and Reconstructing Judaism.

[solonan]

How interesting! I recognize that prayer! Part of it is nailed to my door post. I have most all of Rabbi Sacks books and I love his comments or lecture given on covenants, especially on America being a covenant nation. He always amazes me on how he had time to read so many authors, he quotes so many of them. I am connected to Chabad, I look for background to understand the moedim, which is why I watch Alph Beta as well. I do believe in Jesus, so I listen to first fruits and One for Israel some Jonathon Cahn. Last but not least I like to listen to Rabbi Alon Avnava. He is very interesting and very opinionated . I am Mormon however, I do not believe Mormonism is christian in the sense that it did not break off of the Catholic church nor was it brought up with Protestantism. I believe it actually has a tremendous amount of hebraic thought. When I read the Book of Mormon I find it reflects back to Torah.
I would say the law of first mention plays a big part in that. The more I study it the more I find.
Tomorrow evening begins Rosh Hashanah. May it be blessed for you and yours.

[Robin Hood]

Shalom...

I am not at all certain if this is the correct location for this thread. If it is not, kindly forgive me. I did not mean to cause a kerfuffle.

I have been asked my thoughts on Isaiah. It is an intriguing topic, and one (I believe) resonates in diverse ways with LDS adherents. I thought it would behoove us to have a small space carved out in this forum to have a conversation about such an amazing man and prophet.

All (respectful) musings, inquiries, and discussions are welcome. As the man himself said, "Come, let us reason together."

I never knew how to spell Kerfuffle... thanks.

[AkalAish]

Shalom...

I am not at all certain if this is the correct location for this thread. If it is not, kindly forgive me. I did not mean to cause a kerfuffle.

I have been asked my thoughts on Isaiah. It is an intriguing topic, and one (I believe) resonates in diverse ways with LDS adherents. I thought it would behoove us to have a small space carved out in this forum to have a conversation about such an amazing man and prophet.

All (respectful) musings, inquiries, and discussions are welcome. As the man himself said, "Come, let us reason together."

I never knew how to spell Kerfuffle... thanks.

It was either than or donnybrook...alas, nuance...

[AkalAish]

Geez Louise Niemand, I missed something how did Madonna slide into this?

Some years ago, there arose a great excitement in Hollywood when they decided that Kabbalah was all the rage and the must-have theological seasonal attire that year.

It was Buddhism before that.