Religious Coercion?

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CuriousThinker
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Religious Coercion?

Post by CuriousThinker »

In the Church's Child and Youth Protection Training on page 26 it says the following--

Coercion
Coercion can occur when a leader compels a child using religious language or authority that implies a spiritual obligation or duty, permission, sanction, punishment, justification, intimidation, or threat. This is contrary to the Savior's teaching that individuals should lead "only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;"
Note- child and youth are to be used synonymously.

I think some leaders walk a fine line between leading/persuading and coercing. I always tell my kids that they have the right to say no to anything. This is a volunteer church and you do not have to give a lesson or pray or bear your testimony or accept a calling or assignment unless you want to. I also do not force them to attend church or activities, but they are always invited and know I would love to take them and I go weekly. But, we see leaders who really lay it on and guilt trip and pester until they say yes. I would call that intimidation because they are in a position of authority. I haven't really seen it much since we moved, but I know that this happens in our culture and have seen it in the past.

I think part of it is because our GA's and leaders often use the language of obligations and duties and it just filters down into the culture. They say that it is a choice, but then say that it isn't because you already covenanted at baptism. They say things like there is no need to pray because you are just supposed to. Then we wonder why the members use this language themselves all week long with the youth.

How do we change this? Is there a way to change it? Do they only feel that it is coercion if a child is pulled up by the neck and forced to pray, but don't see the intimidation that takes place to get compliance?

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Niemand
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Re: Religious Coercion?

Post by Niemand »

I have turned down callings in the past and feel better for it. It made me more prepared for callings in the future. I also said I wouldn't go on a mission, and while I reget being a bad witness for Christ, a formal mission like that would not be for me.

I think by exercising some agency people don't automatically think you're a pushover.

CuriousThinker
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Re: Religious Coercion?

Post by CuriousThinker »

Oh, and I believe there is a lot of intimidation that takes place to get parents to get their kids to go to things. In a past ward the leaders would tell the parents that they "Have to get the kids to go to camp" and "It's their job to get their kids to go to things." I hated that. When the leaders treat the parents that way one can only imagine how they talk to the kids. I think they forget that their place is to support the parents and family, not the other way around.

spiritMan
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Re: Religious Coercion?

Post by spiritMan »

CuriousThinker wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 3:32 pm In the Church's Child and Youth Protection Training on page 26 it says the following--

Coercion
Coercion can occur when a leader compels a child using religious language or authority that implies a spiritual obligation or duty, permission, sanction, punishment, justification, intimidation, or threat. This is contrary to the Savior's teaching that individuals should lead "only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;"
Note- child and youth are to be used synonymously.

I think some leaders walk a fine line between leading/persuading and coercing. I always tell my kids that they have the right to say no to anything. This is a volunteer church and you do not have to give a lesson or pray or bear your testimony or accept a calling or assignment unless you want to. I also do not force them to attend church or activities, but they are always invited and know I would love to take them and I go weekly. But, we see leaders who really lay it on and guilt trip and pester until they say yes. I would call that intimidation because they are in a position of authority. I haven't really seen it much since we moved, but I know that this happens in our culture and have seen it in the past.

I think part of it is because our GA's and leaders often use the language of obligations and duties and it just filters down into the culture. They say that it is a choice, but then say that it isn't because you already covenanted at baptism. They say things like there is no need to pray because you are just supposed to. Then we wonder why the members use this language themselves all week long with the youth.

How do we change this? Is there a way to change it? Do they only feel that it is coercion if a child is pulled up by the neck and forced to pray, but don't see the intimidation that takes place to get compliance?
Hahahaha. That's rich.

They should take a look in the mirror (re: serving a mission).

Lizzy60
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Re: Religious Coercion?

Post by Lizzy60 »

My daughter’s YW president asked for volunteers for a prayer for an upcoming program. When no one responded, she said to my daughter, I know you’d like to, thanks for volunteering. My daughter said, no, I am not volunteering and I don’t want to give the prayer.

YW President reported this to the Bishop, and said that every time my daughter speaks, she brings evil spirits into the room. Thank goodness the Bishop was a family friend and had known my daughter for years. Also, he had this leader’s agenda by this time. She was extremely coercive.

Mamabear
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Re: Religious Coercion?

Post by Mamabear »

CuriousThinker wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 3:51 pm Oh, and I believe there is a lot of intimidation that takes place to get parents to get their kids to go to things. In a past ward the leaders would tell the parents that they "Have to get the kids to go to camp" and "It's their job to get their kids to go to things." I hated that. When the leaders treat the parents that way one can only imagine how they talk to the kids. I think they forget that their place is to support the parents and family, not the other way around.
There was a woman who spoke at GC a few years back….she said something like, “young men and women should be going to their weekly activities. If you don’t like what is planned, remember you’re not going for yourself but for someone else.” Or something like that. Total nonsense.

Also, several years ago, I was called to be the yw president when my mom had cancer and I knew she was dying. The bishop begged with tears and promised me that my family would be blessed. I regretted saying yes right away.
The saying, “you or your family will be blessed if you do xyz” has to stop. It is not scriptural. Just because you do something doesn’t guarantee any blessing. Christ did not teach that. Further, our actions cannot guarantee another person a blessing. It doesn’t work that way… it’s false doctrine.

CuriousThinker
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Re: Religious Coercion?

Post by CuriousThinker »

Lizzy60 wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 4:05 pm My daughter’s YW president asked for volunteers for a prayer for an upcoming program. When no one responded, she said to my daughter, I know you’d like to, thanks for volunteering. My daughter said, no, I am not volunteering and I don’t want to give the prayer.

YW President reported this to the Bishop, and said that every time my daughter speaks, she brings evil spirits into the room. Thank goodness the Bishop was a family friend and had known my daughter for years. Also, he had this leader’s agenda by this time. She was extremely coercive.
That's insane! Was she released soon after?

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Fred
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Re: Religious Coercion?

Post by Fred »

CuriousThinker wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 3:32 pm In the Church's Child and Youth Protection Training on page 26 it says the following--

Coercion
Coercion can occur when a leader compels a child using religious language or authority that implies a spiritual obligation or duty, permission, sanction, punishment, justification, intimidation, or threat. This is contrary to the Savior's teaching that individuals should lead "only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;"
Note- child and youth are to be used synonymously.

I think some leaders walk a fine line between leading/persuading and coercing. I always tell my kids that they have the right to say no to anything. This is a volunteer church and you do not have to give a lesson or pray or bear your testimony or accept a calling or assignment unless you want to. I also do not force them to attend church or activities, but they are always invited and know I would love to take them and I go weekly. But, we see leaders who really lay it on and guilt trip and pester until they say yes. I would call that intimidation because they are in a position of authority. I haven't really seen it much since we moved, but I know that this happens in our culture and have seen it in the past.

I think part of it is because our GA's and leaders often use the language of obligations and duties and it just filters down into the culture. They say that it is a choice, but then say that it isn't because you already covenanted at baptism. They say things like there is no need to pray because you are just supposed to. Then we wonder why the members use this language themselves all week long with the youth.

How do we change this? Is there a way to change it? Do they only feel that it is coercion if a child is pulled up by the neck and forced to pray, but don't see the intimidation that takes place to get compliance?
You could file a restraining order against the offenders. Or a civil suit for harassments. Or a complaint to the Bishop that you are serious as a heart attack and it better not happen ever again for as long as the person lives. Or a call to the perpetrator (recorded) that indicates the seriousness of the matter. Or next time you are asked to speak you could use the perp as an example of unrighteous dominion. If you don't want to ruffle feathers, just realize that some people are borderline too stupid to be considered human and forget about it.

Serragon
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Posts: 3444

Re: Religious Coercion?

Post by Serragon »

CuriousThinker wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 3:32 pm In the Church's Child and Youth Protection Training on page 26 it says the following--

Coercion
Coercion can occur when a leader compels a child using religious language or authority that implies a spiritual obligation or duty, permission, sanction, punishment, justification, intimidation, or threat. This is contrary to the Savior's teaching that individuals should lead "only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;"
Note- child and youth are to be used synonymously.

I think some leaders walk a fine line between leading/persuading and coercing. I always tell my kids that they have the right to say no to anything. This is a volunteer church and you do not have to give a lesson or pray or bear your testimony or accept a calling or assignment unless you want to. I also do not force them to attend church or activities, but they are always invited and know I would love to take them and I go weekly. But, we see leaders who really lay it on and guilt trip and pester until they say yes. I would call that intimidation because they are in a position of authority. I haven't really seen it much since we moved, but I know that this happens in our culture and have seen it in the past.

I think part of it is because our GA's and leaders often use the language of obligations and duties and it just filters down into the culture. They say that it is a choice, but then say that it isn't because you already covenanted at baptism. They say things like there is no need to pray because you are just supposed to. Then we wonder why the members use this language themselves all week long with the youth.

How do we change this? Is there a way to change it? Do they only feel that it is coercion if a child is pulled up by the neck and forced to pray, but don't see the intimidation that takes place to get compliance?
The problem here is that the definition of coercion here is incorrect.

Coercion is wrong. But coercion is when force or threats are used. The rest is persuasion.

The Safety training the church provides is a bunch of nonsense. Definitions like this are ridiculous. Their definition of what constitutes abuse is also nonsense. If you followed all of the guidelines in the safety training, you would find it near impossible to actually minister to anyone effectively or even parent your child in any meaningful way. It exists to cover the church's butt and was put together by progressives.

Telling someone they have a duty to go on a mission as a member of the priesthood is not coercion. Informing someone of the spiritual consequences of sin is not coercion. Telling someone that as members of the church they should attend their meetings and activities is not coercion. All of these are examples of persuasion.

CuriousThinker
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Posts: 1187

Re: Religious Coercion?

Post by CuriousThinker »

Serragon wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 4:35 pm
CuriousThinker wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 3:32 pm In the Church's Child and Youth Protection Training on page 26 it says the following--

Coercion
Coercion can occur when a leader compels a child using religious language or authority that implies a spiritual obligation or duty, permission, sanction, punishment, justification, intimidation, or threat. This is contrary to the Savior's teaching that individuals should lead "only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;"
Note- child and youth are to be used synonymously.

I think some leaders walk a fine line between leading/persuading and coercing. I always tell my kids that they have the right to say no to anything. This is a volunteer church and you do not have to give a lesson or pray or bear your testimony or accept a calling or assignment unless you want to. I also do not force them to attend church or activities, but they are always invited and know I would love to take them and I go weekly. But, we see leaders who really lay it on and guilt trip and pester until they say yes. I would call that intimidation because they are in a position of authority. I haven't really seen it much since we moved, but I know that this happens in our culture and have seen it in the past.

I think part of it is because our GA's and leaders often use the language of obligations and duties and it just filters down into the culture. They say that it is a choice, but then say that it isn't because you already covenanted at baptism. They say things like there is no need to pray because you are just supposed to. Then we wonder why the members use this language themselves all week long with the youth.

How do we change this? Is there a way to change it? Do they only feel that it is coercion if a child is pulled up by the neck and forced to pray, but don't see the intimidation that takes place to get compliance?
The problem here is that the definition of coercion here is incorrect.

Coercion is wrong. But coercion is when force or threats are used. The rest is persuasion.

The Safety training the church provides is a bunch of nonsense. Definitions like this are ridiculous. Their definition of what constitutes abuse is also nonsense. If you followed all of the guidelines in the safety training, you would find it near impossible to actually minister to anyone effectively or even parent your child in any meaningful way. It exists to cover the church's butt and was put together by progressives.

Telling someone they have a duty to go on a mission as a member of the priesthood is not coercion. Informing someone of the spiritual consequences of sin is not coercion. Telling someone that as members of the church they should attend their meetings and activities is not coercion. All of these are examples of persuasion.
You don't think leaders can or have intimidated the youth to get compliance?

CuriousThinker
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Re: Religious Coercion?

Post by CuriousThinker »

Webster's Dictionary

Synonyms for coercion

arm-twisting, compulsion, constraint, duress, force, pressure

Words Related to coercion

browbeating, bulldozing, bullying
fear, intimidation, menace, sword, terror, terrorism, threat, violence
squeeze, squeeze play
might, muscle, potency, puissance, strength
hardheadedness, self-will, willfulness
strain, stress

Near Antonyms for coercion

agreement, approval, consent, permission
convincing, persuasion, reason, suasion

Serragon
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Posts: 3444

Re: Religious Coercion?

Post by Serragon »

CuriousThinker wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 4:38 pm
Serragon wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 4:35 pm
CuriousThinker wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 3:32 pm In the Church's Child and Youth Protection Training on page 26 it says the following--

Coercion
Coercion can occur when a leader compels a child using religious language or authority that implies a spiritual obligation or duty, permission, sanction, punishment, justification, intimidation, or threat. This is contrary to the Savior's teaching that individuals should lead "only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;"
Note- child and youth are to be used synonymously.

I think some leaders walk a fine line between leading/persuading and coercing. I always tell my kids that they have the right to say no to anything. This is a volunteer church and you do not have to give a lesson or pray or bear your testimony or accept a calling or assignment unless you want to. I also do not force them to attend church or activities, but they are always invited and know I would love to take them and I go weekly. But, we see leaders who really lay it on and guilt trip and pester until they say yes. I would call that intimidation because they are in a position of authority. I haven't really seen it much since we moved, but I know that this happens in our culture and have seen it in the past.

I think part of it is because our GA's and leaders often use the language of obligations and duties and it just filters down into the culture. They say that it is a choice, but then say that it isn't because you already covenanted at baptism. They say things like there is no need to pray because you are just supposed to. Then we wonder why the members use this language themselves all week long with the youth.

How do we change this? Is there a way to change it? Do they only feel that it is coercion if a child is pulled up by the neck and forced to pray, but don't see the intimidation that takes place to get compliance?
The problem here is that the definition of coercion here is incorrect.

Coercion is wrong. But coercion is when force or threats are used. The rest is persuasion.

The Safety training the church provides is a bunch of nonsense. Definitions like this are ridiculous. Their definition of what constitutes abuse is also nonsense. If you followed all of the guidelines in the safety training, you would find it near impossible to actually minister to anyone effectively or even parent your child in any meaningful way. It exists to cover the church's butt and was put together by progressives.

Telling someone they have a duty to go on a mission as a member of the priesthood is not coercion. Informing someone of the spiritual consequences of sin is not coercion. Telling someone that as members of the church they should attend their meetings and activities is not coercion. All of these are examples of persuasion.
You don't think leaders can or have intimidated the youth to get compliance?
Of course they have, but I think it is rare. If they are actually using threats or intimidation, then it should stop.

But I have rarely seen threats and intimidation from church leaders. Usually, it is the person receiving the communication who incorrectly decides that they are being "forced" because the directness of the speech makes them feel uncomfortable.

Serragon
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Re: Religious Coercion?

Post by Serragon »

CuriousThinker wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 3:51 pm Oh, and I believe there is a lot of intimidation that takes place to get parents to get their kids to go to things. In a past ward the leaders would tell the parents that they "Have to get the kids to go to camp" and "It's their job to get their kids to go to things." I hated that. When the leaders treat the parents that way one can only imagine how they talk to the kids. I think they forget that their place is to support the parents and family, not the other way around.
That isn't intimidation.

CuriousThinker
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Re: Religious Coercion?

Post by CuriousThinker »

Serragon wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 4:50 pm
CuriousThinker wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 3:51 pm Oh, and I believe there is a lot of intimidation that takes place to get parents to get their kids to go to things. In a past ward the leaders would tell the parents that they "Have to get the kids to go to camp" and "It's their job to get their kids to go to things." I hated that. When the leaders treat the parents that way one can only imagine how they talk to the kids. I think they forget that their place is to support the parents and family, not the other way around.
That isn't intimidation.
You haven't been in the meetings. When they say "you're a failure as a parent" if they don't, (that is an exact quote), then it is definitely intimidating and demoralizing. That is the opposite of persuasion. I am glad you haven't seen anything like it.

Lizzy60
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Re: Religious Coercion?

Post by Lizzy60 »

CuriousThinker wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 4:17 pm
Lizzy60 wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 4:05 pm My daughter’s YW president asked for volunteers for a prayer for an upcoming program. When no one responded, she said to my daughter, I know you’d like to, thanks for volunteering. My daughter said, no, I am not volunteering and I don’t want to give the prayer.

YW President reported this to the Bishop, and said that every time my daughter speaks, she brings evil spirits into the room. Thank goodness the Bishop was a family friend and had known my daughter for years. Also, he had this leader’s agenda by this time. She was extremely coercive.
That's insane! Was she released soon after?
The Bishop tried. The Stake President had to get involved. Soon after they moved back to Salt Lake.
She is no longer in TX, so you’re safe!!

Lizzy60
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Re: Religious Coercion?

Post by Lizzy60 »

My son was married with several children, and in another ward in our stake. He hadn’t paid tithing for about a year, and the Stake High Counselor sought me out right before church and took me into a room, just the two of us, and asked me what my husband and I, as the parents, were going to do about getting our son to pay tithing. !!!!!!!!!

Serragon
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Re: Religious Coercion?

Post by Serragon »

CuriousThinker wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 4:56 pm
Serragon wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 4:50 pm
CuriousThinker wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 3:51 pm Oh, and I believe there is a lot of intimidation that takes place to get parents to get their kids to go to things. In a past ward the leaders would tell the parents that they "Have to get the kids to go to camp" and "It's their job to get their kids to go to things." I hated that. When the leaders treat the parents that way one can only imagine how they talk to the kids. I think they forget that their place is to support the parents and family, not the other way around.
That isn't intimidation.
You haven't been in the meetings. When they say "you're a failure as a parent" if they don't, (that is an exact quote), then it is definitely intimidating and demoralizing. That is the opposite of persuasion. I am glad you haven't seen anything like it.
I have seen this kind of thing many times, and I disagree with it. This is a huge problem in our church. It comes from the idea that the members exist to support the church, instead of the idea that the church exists to support the members. I do my best to change this way of thinking whenever I can.

But it still is not intimidation or coercion. It is simply an attempt to persuade you through guilt instead of through love. No one has violated your agency in any way.

Serragon
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Re: Religious Coercion?

Post by Serragon »

Lizzy60 wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 5:10 pm My son was married with several children, and in another ward in our stake. He hadn’t paid tithing for about a year, and the Stake High Counselor sought me out right before church and took me into a room, just the two of us, and asked me what my husband and I, as the parents, were going to do about getting our son to pay tithing. !!!!!!!!!
I'd give that High councilor a piece of my mind.

Lizzy60
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Posts: 8520

Re: Religious Coercion?

Post by Lizzy60 »

Serragon wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 5:18 pm
Lizzy60 wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 5:10 pm My son was married with several children, and in another ward in our stake. He hadn’t paid tithing for about a year, and the Stake High Counselor sought me out right before church and took me into a room, just the two of us, and asked me what my husband and I, as the parents, were going to do about getting our son to pay tithing. !!!!!!!!!
I'd give that High councilor a piece of my mind.
My husband did exactly that.

A few months later, there was a lot of turd stopping up a toilet in the women’s restroom. I went in search of help, and guess who was visiting our ward, and the first person I saw in the hallway? Yes, divine approbation was raining down on me as I turned over the janitorial problem to the High Councilor.

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