Enochic/Noahic Themes in 1 Nephi

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abijah
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Enochic/Noahic Themes in 1 Nephi

Post by abijah »

lots of stuff in 1 nephi that's highly reminiscent of the antediluvian period (book of mormon is true).

i only have my phone so im gonna have an ongoing thread one at a time rather than a big huge post.

as a baseline, im gonna use a dissertation by amy richter who details the thematic similarity b/w 1`Enoch and the gospel of Matthew: The Enochic Watchers' Template and the Gospel of Matthew

anyway, ill start of with nephi's name..
Image

1 Nephi 1
And it came to pass that I, Nephi, being exceedingly young, nevertheless being large in stature...

Nephi's name literally means "giant", and his self-description as "being large in stature" is definitely harking back in some sense to the nephilim of pre-flood times:

Genesis 6
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward... these were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown..
But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD...

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abijah
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Re: Enochic/Noahic Themes in 1 Nephi

Post by abijah »

1 Nephi 17
9 And I said: Lord, whither shall I go that I may find ore to molten, that I may make tools to construct the ship after the manner which thou hast shown unto me?
10 And it came to pass that the Lord told me whither I should go to find ore, that I might make tools.

a big overarching theme of enoch as well as noah has to do with technology, and the revealing/teaching of it from heavenly beings. in genesis, tubal-cain (lamech's son) is credited with metallurgy, whereas in 1 enoch it is described as being taught by the watcher azazel.

Genesis 4
And Lamech took two wives. The name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah..
Zillah bore Tubal-cain; he was the forger of all instruments of bronze and iron.
Image

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abijah
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đreamvisions`🌙🕯💭

Post by abijah »

a key motif in the book of enoch are revelatory dreams/visions.
Image

amy does a good job honing in on this in her comparison between 1`Enoch and the gospel of matthew's infancy narrative (which naturally has its share of revelatory dreams..), and then i will extrapolate the comparison to 1 Nephi
https://epublications.marquette.edu/dissertations_mu/45/ wrote:In Matthew’s infancy narrative, he shows that the birth of Jesus repairs the effects of the watchers’ template by using the very elements of that template. Joseph’s suspicion
of Mary’s pregnancy; the child as the product of a woman and the Holy Spirit, who may
have been regarded as angelomorphic; dreams that direct human plans; and the magi who are connected with and make use of illicit arts to find the child all reflect elements of the Enochic watchers’ template. The repair begun by Jesus’ birth is
completed by the adult Jesus and shows in the chapters following Matthew’s genealogy
and infancy narrative...

In 1 Enoch, Enoch’s dream
visions
help establish him as a faithful recipient of God’s revelation. His faithful execution of God’s commands received in his dreams also helps move the story and divine purposes forward.
  • 1 Enoch 13
    And behold a dream came to me, and visions fell down upon me, and I saw visions of chastisement, and a voice came bidding I to tell it to the sons of heaven, and reprimand them.
https://epublications.marquette.edu/dissertations_mu/45/ wrote:Dreams are important in both Matthew’s infancy narratives and 1 Enoch. In Matthew, dreams contain the revelation of God that moves the narrative forward according to God’s purposes. A faithful recipient of divinely inspired dreams, Joseph
acts in accordance with the divine instruction he receives in his dreams.
  • Matthew 1
    But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy : for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Image
  • Matthew 2
    And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt...
https://epublications.marquette.edu/dissertations_mu/45/ wrote:The magi also
receive a dream and act in accordance with its directions.
  • Matthew 2
    And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, the wise men departed into their own country another way.
https://epublications.marquette.edu/dissertations_mu/45/ wrote:Through their faithful carrying out of commands received in
dreams, both Joseph and Enoch act as protectors of an important person sent to bring
salvation.
just as revelatory dreamvisions is a typical feature in both enochic literature as well as w/ joseph-husband-of-mary in matthew's gospel ---> its also a key leitmotif in 1Nephi, particularly in the person of the patriarch lehi. in both 1Nephi and Matthew, it's the paternal head of the household who receives the visionary instructions for those in his responsibility.
  • 1 Nephi 2
    For behold, it came to pass that the Lord spake unto my father, yea, even in a dream... for he was a visionary man..
Image
  • 1 Nephi 1
    And now I, Nephi, do not make a full account of the things which my father hath written, for he hath written many things which he saw in visions and in dreams.

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Niemand
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Re: Enochic/Noahic Themes in 1 Nephi

Post by Niemand »

Apologies for the smug comment but I think the adjective for Noah is Noahide or Noachian.

But I'm always interested in anything that deals with the relationship of the Book of Mormon to scriptures outwith the Protestant (66 book) canon.

There are several possible etymologies for Nephi. I lean towards it meaning "prophet".

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abijah
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Techne

Post by abijah »

abijah wrote: September 22nd, 2022, 7:49 pm 1 Nephi 17
9 And I said: Lord, whither shall I go that I may find ore to molten, that I may make tools to construct the ship after the manner which thou hast shown unto me?
10 And it came to pass that the Lord told me whither I should go to find ore, that I might make tools.

a big overarching theme of enoch as well as noah has to do with technology and the revealing/teaching of it from heavenly beings. in genesis, tubal-cain (lamech's son) is credited with metallurgy, whereas in 1 enoch it is described as being taught by the watcher azazel.

Genesis 4
And Lamech took two wives. The name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah..
Zillah bore Tubal-cain; he was the forger of all instruments of bronze and iron.
Image
building off of this^, let me supplement with a quote from LordofSpirits podcast (i rly probly shudve opened up with this):
https://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/lordofspirits/but_we_have_the_mind_of_christ wrote:Fr. Andrew: Indeed. [Laughter] So, moving on, we’ve got another kind of knowledge, and this is one that should be very, very familiar to modern people, and that’s what in ancient Greek was called "Techne", but we could translate it as “know-how.” And it’s the origin of our modern English word, “technique.”

Fr. Stephen: Right, we use technology to refer to digital technology, and I’m sorry to any Amish people who might be somehow listening to internet radio—I guess I don’t have to apologize—but everything is technology. The buggy was technology—was high technology at one point.

Fr. Andrew: Yeah, human activity. The things that we make

Fr. Stephen: Buttons on your coat were technology at one point. The coat. Slacks. [Laughter] These were all… At one point, these were all technological innovations.

Fr. Andrew: This has come up a lot for Lord of Spirits listeners, because of course we talk about the dark gift of techne to Cain and other people throughout time that were given this knowledge by demons. So occasionally we get this question, like, okay, which kinds of technology are demon-technology? The idea that we shouldn’t touch that because that came from demons! So it’s very much an ongoing concern. [Laughter] So this will be an opportunity to kind of talk about that a little bit more.

Fr. Stephen: Right, because… And now this kind of techne expands even beyond even those examples I just gave of technology, because we’re also including with this things like handicrafts and sculpting and art—

Fr. Andrew: Poetry, music!

Fr. Stephen: —and poetry and music; and all of this sort of human creative activity: taking the things that exist in the creation and putting them in order and putting them to purpose.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QafvZZT ... u.be&t=324

As already touched on, in Genesis we see that it's Cain's line who get credited with the invention of techne, in all its forms and varieties (whether it be city-building, or animal husbandry, or metallurgy, or cosmetics, or poetry/art/music, etc, &c.), which leads to perpetual degeneration and depraved violence:
  • Genesis 4
    And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city..
    And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.
    And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle.
    And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.
    And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron
the book of Enoch describes the means whereby cain's line is capable of developing this novel technology/culture (fallen angels functioning as false teachers)
  • 1 Enoch 7
    And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants.
  • 1 Enoch 8
    And Azazel taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all colouring tinctures. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they were led astray, and became corrupt in all their ways..
its this burgeoning and escalation of unholy technology that we see detailed in the Books of Enoch and Genesis that leads to the conditions that cause the Flood.
  • Genesis 6
    And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me...
    Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.
    And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it
    ...
     
Image

So, fallen mankind (Cain lineage) + fallen angels (nephilim offspring) ---> Destructive technology that causes the Flood

..whereas, righteous mankind (Noah) + God ---> Redemptivetechnology that provides deliverance

God uses technology, the very thing which caused the flood conditions, to save the righteous remnant (noah + fam)
^Now, looping this all in with 1 Nephi...
  • 1 Nephi 17
    And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto me, saying: Thou shalt construct a ship, after the manner which I shall show thee..
    And I said: Lord, whither shall I go that I may find ore to molten, that I may make tools to construct the ship after the manner which thou hast shown unto me?10 And it came to pass that the Lord told me whither I should go to find ore, that I might make tools.
Image
  • 1 Nephi 18
    And it came to pass that we did work timbers of curious workmanship. And the Lord did show me from time to time after what manner I should work the timbers of the ship.
    Now I, Nephi, did not work the timbers after the manner which was learned by men, neither did I build the ship after the manner of men; but I did build it after the manner which the Lord had shown unto me; wherefore, it was not after the manner of men...
    And it came to pass that after I had finished the ship, according to the word of the Lord, my brethren beheld that it was good, and that the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine..
Nephi describes the divinely-inspired construction blueprints as being "curious workmanship" and "exceedingly fine". Here - in Nephi (the anti-nephilim) we have techne being applied which neither originated with the watchers, nor passed down via cain.

doubtless, another blatant example of sacred technology (specifically metallurgy/brass in this case) = the liahona:
  • 1 Nephi 16
    And it came to pass that as my father arose in the morning, and went forth to the tent door, to his great astonishment he beheld upon the ground a round ball of curious workmanship; and it was of fine brass. And within the ball were two spindles; and the one pointed the way whither we should go into the wilderness.

Image
Last edited by abijah on September 23rd, 2022, 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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abijah
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Re: Enochic/Noahic Themes in 1 Nephi

Post by abijah »

Niemand wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 6:34 pm Apologies for the smug comment but I think the adjective for Noah is Noahide or Noachian.

But I'm always interested in anything that deals with the relationship of the Book of Mormon to scriptures outwith the Protestant (66 book) canon.
no i think "noahic" is correct, as in the "noahic covenant"? i could be wrong.

i don't think i recall seeing "noachian" before, whereas for "noahide", id like to keep the thread antisemitism-free as possible🙃
Niemand wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 6:34 pmThere are several possible etymologies for Nephi. I lean towards it meaning "prophet".
that's interesting, what's the potential etymology connection there?

i also see some credibility for "nephesh", meaning "soul".. Image

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Niemand
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Re: Enochic/Noahic Themes in 1 Nephi

Post by Niemand »

abijah wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 7:31 pm
Niemand wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 6:34 pmThere are several possible etymologies for Nephi. I lean towards it meaning "prophet".
that's interesting, what's the potential etymology connection there?

i also see some credibility for "nephesh", meaning "soul".. Image
"Nabi" is a Semitic word for prophet. It's not that far off Nwphi. If Nephi was "the prophet" of the Nephites, it would make sense for them to refer to him as that.... much like Muslims often refer to Mohammed as "the Prophet" rather than Mohammed all the time.

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MikeMaillet
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Re: Enochic/Noahic Themes in 1 Nephi

Post by MikeMaillet »

I had never considered that the Flood might have been triggered by the Nephilim. This is most interesting and worthy of exploration. Many thanks! I had already concluded that our scientific knowledge was what the fallen angels revealed to mankind. I think someone asked in a post further up the chain about how much technology was demonic... I would ask how much time do we spend using/creating/fixing/building/admiring technology vs. how much time do we spend growing food, building shelter, making clothes, feeding the poor, sheltering the poor and clothing the poor. Better we ask ourselves that question before someone else does. I could quote some scriptures here but you guys know them as well or better than I do. Isaiah does go on quite a bit about our idols and gods being the works of our hands, things our fingers have made and yes, I get the irony of our internet conversation being possible only through the use of technology ... Baddam Psh!

There was one verse, Isaiah 13:13, that caught my attention recently:

I will cause disturbance in the heavens
when the earth is jolted out of place
by the anger of Jehovah of Hosts
in the day of his blazing wrath.

It puzzled me that it was the anger of Jehovah that jolted the earth out of its place. The "anger" being the person in the latter-days that is best represented by the King Assyria in the vision of Isaiah. If the Nephilim can create a massive flood that transforms the earth they might also be able to jolt the earth out of its place in the latter-days.

Mike Maillet
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abijah
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Re: Enochic/Noahic Themes in 1 Nephi

Post by abijah »

"..behold, my brethren and the sons of Ishmael and also their wives began to make themselves merry, insomuch that they began to dance, and to sing, and to speak with much rudeness..."

This next enochic/noahic leitmotif in 1 Nephi has a heavy amount of overlap with the broader marriage-feast theme: Image

abijah` wrote: November 24th, 2021, 2:34 pmComponent 1: Marriage ceremonies, Sex/Romance, Flirtatiousness, Kissing, and in the most extreme iterations, even Orgies

Component 2: Food & Drink [usually meat and wine, respectively], including in a celebratory, recreational and perhaps even Sacramental context..

Component 3: Music, Singing, Dancing, and Celebration / Merry-making
This broader marriage-feast category is a key component to what led up to & caused Noah's Flood -

Matthew 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
  • 1 Nephi 18
    8 And it came to pass after we had all gone down into the ship, and.. did put forth into the sea...
    9 And behold... my brethren and the sons of Ishmael and also their wives began to make themselves merry, insomuch that they began to dance, and to sing, and to speak with much rudeness, yea, even that they did forget by what power they had been brought thither; yea, they were lifted up unto exceeding rudeness.
This marriage-feast feast theme of social celebration 🎉, of singing & dancing🕺 🎶 💃 etc is connected with the sea/the waters, not only in terms of the Flood itself 🌊, but also with ships... ⛴

Psalm 104
25 So is this great and wide sea, wherein are things creeping innumerable, both small and great beasts.
26 There go the ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein.

That ^word "play" is the word Isaac's name derives from, and is quite relevant to the above Psalm 104 passage and how all these things come back to 1 Nephi.
Image

Psalm 104
25 So is this great and wide sea....
26 There go the ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein.
  • 1 Nephi 18
    8 And it came to pass after we had all gone down into the ship... we did put forth into the sea...
    9 And after we had been driven forth before the wind for the space of many days, behold, my brethren and the sons of Ishmael and also their wives began to make themselves merry, insomuch that they began to dance, and to sing, and to speak with much rudeness, yea, even that they did forget by what power they had been brought thither; yea, they were lifted up unto exceeding rudeness.
    10 And I, Nephi, began to fear exceedingly lest the Lord should be angry with us, and smite us because of our iniquity, that we should be swallowed up in the depths of the sea...
You get all the same exact elements. Not only the singing, dancing & celebrating, but also the rudeness/mockery/derision aspect, just like the etymology of this word "play"...
Image

1 Nephi 18
8 And it came to pass after we had all gone down into the ship, and had taken with us our provisions and things which had been commanded us, we did put forth into the sea and were driven forth before the wind towards the promised land.
9 And after we had been driven forth before the wind for the space of many days, behold, my brethren and the sons of Ishmael and also their wives began to make themselves merry, insomuch that they began to dance, and to sing, and to speak with much rudeness, yea, even that they did forget by what power they had been brought thither; yea, they were lifted up unto exceeding rudeness.
10 And I, Nephi, began to fear exceedingly lest the Lord should be angry with us, and smite us because of our iniquity, that we should be swallowed up in the depths of the sea...

You also get this notion of Remembering vs Forgetfulness...

Genesis 8
1 And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters asswaged..
  • 1 Nephi 18
    8 And it came to pass after we had all gone down into the ship, and had taken with us our provisions and things which had been commanded us, we did put forth into the sea and were driven forth before the wind towards the promised land.
    9 And after we had been driven forth before the wind for the space of many days, behold, my brethren and the sons of Ishmael and also their wives began to make themselves merry, insomuch that they began to dance, and to sing, and to speak with much rudeness, yea, even that they did forget by what power they had been brought thither; yea, they were lifted up unto exceeding rudeness.
Matthew 24
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away..
  • 1 Nephi 18
    9 And after we had been driven forth before the wind for the space of many days, behold, my brethren and the sons of Ishmael and also their wives began to make themselves merry, insomuch that they began to dance, and to sing, and to speak with much rudeness, yea, even that they did forget by what power they had been brought thither; yea, they were lifted up unto exceeding rudeness.

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abijah
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Hybridity

Post by abijah »

MikeMaillet wrote: September 24th, 2022, 4:31 am I had never considered that the Flood might have been triggered by the Nephilim. This is most interesting and worthy of exploration.
A big theme in the scriptures (especially where the nephilim ------> floodwaters story is concerned...) is the taboo against forbidden mixture, purity vs hybridity. it's a fairly broad umbrella`category that underpins pretty much the entire Law of Moses and basically every facet of life, like clothing w/ linen and wool, or diet with clean vs unclean foods, or smell in regard to certain mixtures of incense blends, etc etc.

God's way is that everything has its own place, it's own identity, with its own name. This gives distinction and variety to the created order, where all animals reproduce after their own kind, and why plants produce their own seeds within themselves. This principle of God distinguishing between different things and keeping them separate is manifest in Adam naming (classifying/taxonomising) the animals, marking them out into distinct categories and species. when things go awry is when a certain 🐍 shows up which Adam is not capable of naming/pinning down, causing Adam's exile from Eden and ability to name/exert-dominion-over the animals, which in turn has to do with the cherubim that are set as watchguards (cherubs being animal-human hybrids)

This all stacks up into deeper subjects and higher layers of being, like marriage & sexuality for example, where the symbolism of improper mixture manifests in various aberrations like cuckoldry (admixture of seed/lineage), or incest (admixture of familial "nakedness"), or bestiality (admixture of species), etc.

It's interesting how the people (at the top) who despise us and who plot against our best interest so heavily rely on this tool of corrosive hybridity to accomplish this, in every facet of society. its why they want mass immigration and demographic shifts to artificially intermix the populace. it's why every commercial depicts an interracial couple and why all the movies and tv shows are doing race-swaps. breaking down any and every barrier/boundary/buffer between different races/nations/identities.

the devil has always used forbidden mixture to accomplish his schemes of cross-pollinating God's creation, tainting its purity.

Matthew 13
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
He said unto them, An enemy hath done this...

That's the reason why God's first action after the Fall was to slice a cosmic dividing line/boundary between satan had maliciously ambiguated ---->

Gen 3
14 And the Lord GOD said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all...
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed... Image
Image

the whole Mixture vs Purity dichotomy in the scriptures really shows up clearly in the lead-up to Noah's Flood -----> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Om4NKr ... .be&t=1053
  • Genesis 6
    And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
    That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
    And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
    There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men...
Image

You get the hybridity that comes out of spiritual beings (who belong in heaven) uniting with earthly beings (who belong on the land). The improper/illegal union of heaven & earth, a fake Logos. This cosmic fornication between the two realms results in the crossbreed nephilim/giants, who hybridized different animals into chimeras, erasing all distinction between species thereby reversing what Adam did in Genesis 2 by naming the animals.
Image

Out of this is what spawns the Flood, because that's what happens when you ambiguate every distinction and when you fluidate every boundary line, introducing a subtle medium to perforate every possible border. The fluidity comes to snap back at you in a deluge of waters.

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Niemand
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Re: Enochic/Noahic Themes in 1 Nephi

Post by Niemand »

You can add cyborgs to that list.

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abijah
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Re: Enochic/Noahic Themes in 1 Nephi

Post by abijah »

Building from my ^above post which details the curious similarities between Psalm 104 and 1 Nephi 18, specifically ship journey through the sea(s) 🌊 this post carries on with this same element/leitmotif of "the sea"/"the 'great'/'wide' waters"...
Image.

Interestingly, Lehi/Nephi in their description of the 'Great' and 'Spacious' Building use the same scriptural terms used to talk about the sea/the waters..
Image

1 Nephi 8
26 And I also cast my eyes round about, and beheld, on the other side of the river of water, a great and spacious building; and it stood as it were in the air, high above the earth.
  • Psalm 104
    25 So is this the great and wide sea...
    26 There go the ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein.
The hebrew word translated as "great" = "gadol"
Image

The word translated as "spacious"/"wide= " "rahab"
Image

Curiously, not only is the sea inherently feminine (symbolically), but both these terms have a certain feminine connotation. The one with the word "rahab" is obvious, with three harlot/innkeeper (as well as eventual matriarch in the messianic lineage) Rahab, who served as Israel's double-agent allowing them to spy out Jericho and thus enter the Promised land.

Whereas concerning the word "gadol"
is the same word from which the name 'Magdalene' derives...
Image

"but abijah whay does this have to do exactly with the Book of Enoch...?" 🤔

Well, the exact same terms are used in the Book of Enoch, in reference to a house/tower which is described very similarly to the Great & Spacious Building....

1 Enoch 89
And that house became great and broad, and it was built for those sheep: and a tower lofty and great was built on the house for the Lord of the sheep, and that house was low, but the tower was elevated and lofty, and the Lord of the sheep stood on that tower and they offered a full table before Him.
And again I saw those sheep that they again erred and went many ways...
  • 1 Nephi 8
    And I also cast my eyes round about, and beheld, on the other side of the river of water, a great and spacious building; and it stood as it were in the air, high above the earth.
You even have the same specific detail of it being high and lifted-up, as well as many going down strange paths to reach it ----->

1 Enoch 89
And that house became great and broad, and it was built for those sheep: and a tower lofty and great was built on the house for the Lord of the sheep, and that house was low, but the tower was elevated and lofty, and the Lord of the sheep stood on that tower and they offered a full table before Him.
And again I saw those sheep that they again erred and went many ways...
  • 1 Nephi 8
    And I also cast my eyes round about, and beheld, on the other side of the river of water, a great and spacious building; and it stood as it were in the air, high above the earth..
    And after they had tasted of the fruit they were ashamed, because of those that were scoffing at them; and they fell away into forbidden paths and were lost.

Very.

Interesting.

🤔...

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gruden2.0
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Re: Enochic/Noahic Themes in 1 Nephi

Post by gruden2.0 »

abijah wrote: September 22nd, 2022, 7:14 pm anyway, ill start of with nephi's name..


1 Nephi 1
And it came to pass that I, Nephi, being exceedingly young, nevertheless being large in stature...

Nephi's name literally means "giant", and his self-description as "being large in stature" is definitely harking back in some sense to the nephilim of pre-flood times:

Genesis 6
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward... these were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown..
But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD...
Hold on here, are you trying to say Nephi is a nephilim? That cannot be. Nephilim are born of corruption, the very intent was to wrest creation here away from God, to supplant God's creation. Nephilim are not inheritors of salvation granted to His children, they were the targets of the Flood. Semitic people gave their children names that had meaning or significance; a name that reminded Lehi of Nephilim would not be considered positive at all, quite the opposite. Tying Nephi to Nephilim in any way seems beyond a reach to me. Makes no sense at all.
Nephi

Nephi is an ancient Egyptian name with multiple meanings. One meaning is “sea captain” (see John Gee, "Four Suggestions on the Origin of the Name Nephi," in Pressing Forward with the Book of Mormon, F.A.R.M.S., 1999, pp. 1–3). We know this is a fitting name for Nephi, who built a ship and navigated the seas with the Lord’s help.

However, Nephi can also mean “good, fair, delightful, or beautiful” (see Matthew L. Bowen, “Nephi’s Good Inclusion,” Interpreter: A Journal of Mormon Scripture 17 (2016): 181-195; Matthew L. Bowen, “O Ye Fair Ones”—Revisited,” Interpreter: A Journal of Mormon Scripture 20 (2016): 315-344). Nephi’s choices made him good and fair. Even when he declared that he was a wretched man, his trust in the Lord was delightful and beautiful.
https://www.ldsliving.com/the-actual-me ... es/s/83887

Also, the JST says the nephilim were 'like unto them of old', not that they were 'them of old'.

Lastly, Israelites tended to be short, they weren't that tall. So if Nephi was 6' tall or such, he would be considered large in stature for his time. If he were a giant (Goliath was probably 9' tall or so, possibly more) he wouldn't have been able to wear Laban's armor. Also Mormon was of larger stature as well. Supposedly Joshua was as well.

The Israelites were deathly afraid of the sea, that's where leviathan was, which is why having a navy was very short lived and not part of their national identity in ancient times. So in some very limited ways comparing Nephi to Noah has a little validity, however, Nephi himself compared and likened their experience to that of the Exodus. So maybe that would be a more apt comparison?

The reason for the flood was rampant corruption:
1. The corruption of endemic and intractable sin.
2. The corruption of seed, both that of humans and animals.

So it makes sense Nephi compared their journey to that of the Exodus: they were leaving for the first reason, not the second, and journeying toward a land of promise. The second would not be repeated until our day, as Jesus stated the latter days would be as the days of Noah. It is us who will be able to make that comparison shortly. Genetic experimentation is the corruption of seed, and you could probably include forbidden technology as well, so our time will see both types of corruption again.

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abijah
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Re: Enochic/Noahic Themes in 1 Nephi

Post by abijah »

gruden2.0 wrote: November 3rd, 2022, 9:52 pmHold on here, are you trying to say Nephi is a nephilim? That cannot be. Nephilim are born of corruption, the very intent was to wrest creation here away from God, to supplant God's creation. Nephilim are not inheritors of salvation granted to His children, they were the targets of the Flood. Semitic people gave their children names that had meaning or significance; a name that reminded Lehi of Nephilim would not be considered positive at all, quite the opposite. Tying Nephi to Nephilim in any way seems beyond a reach to me. Makes no sense at all.
No, I'm not saying Nephi is a nephilim, I'm saying he's an anti-nephilim. A divine inversion, they happen all the time in scripture. There's a *long* list of ways certain characters like Bezalel, Joshua & David all have nephilim-ic qualities to them for the purpose of inverting the nephilims' inversion (to set things back rightside-up). Ultimately Jesus is the ultimate anti-nephilim, Him being the the very thing they inverted/counterfeited. Jesus being born out of a union between a mortal woman and a divine sire is exactly what they were copying, except a twisted version. The nephilim were known for cannibalism and ritual blood-drinking, a blasphemous perversion of the holy sacrament, wherein Jesus came not to feast and drink on the flesh+lifeblood of others, but to freely offer it...

Matthew 20
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

John 6
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
gruden2.0 wrote: November 3rd, 2022, 9:52 pmNephi

Nephi is an ancient Egyptian name with multiple meanings. One meaning is “sea captain” (see John Gee, "Four Suggestions on the Origin of the Name Nephi," in Pressing Forward with the Book of Mormon, F.A.R.M.S., 1999, pp. 1–3). We know this is a fitting name for Nephi, who built a ship and navigated the seas with the Lord’s help.
I don't know where this etymology comes from, but if this is legit what "Nephi" means then it fits the premise of this thread even better, as one can see from my previous posts.
gruden2.0 wrote: November 3rd, 2022, 9:52 pmAlso, the JST says the nephilim were 'like unto them of old', not that they were 'them of old'.
JST also happens to be nonsense.
gruden2.0 wrote: November 3rd, 2022, 9:52 pmLastly, Israelites tended to be short, they weren't that tall. So if Nephi was 6' tall or such, he would be considered large in stature for his time. If he were a giant (Goliath was probably 9' tall or so, possibly more) he wouldn't have been able to wear Laban's armor. Also Mormon was of larger stature as well. Supposedly Joshua was as well.

The Israelites were deathly afraid of the sea, that's where leviathan was, which is why having a navy was very short lived and not part of their national identity in ancient times. So in some very limited ways comparing Nephi to Noah has a little validity, however, Nephi himself compared and likened their experience to that of the Exodus. So maybe that would be a more apt comparison?

The reason for the flood was rampant corruption:
1. The corruption of endemic and intractable sin.
2. The corruption of seed, both that of humans and animals.

So it makes sense Nephi compared their journey to that of the Exodus: they were leaving for the first reason, not the second, and journeying toward a land of promise. The second would not be repeated until our day, as Jesus stated the latter days would be as the days of Noah. It is us who will be able to make that comparison shortly. Genetic experimentation is the corruption of seed, and you could probably include forbidden technology as well, so our time will see both types of corruption again.
The way he opens and introduces himself "I Nephi, being large in stature..." is surely no coincidence. Him depicted as a hunter just like Nimrod (a nephilim), with his bow, and eating raw meat (what nephilim eat) that was made sweet.

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gruden2.0
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Re: Enochic/Noahic Themes in 1 Nephi

Post by gruden2.0 »

abijah wrote: September 22nd, 2022, 7:49 pm 1 Nephi 17
9 And I said: Lord, whither shall I go that I may find ore to molten, that I may make tools to construct the ship after the manner which thou hast shown unto me?
10 And it came to pass that the Lord told me whither I should go to find ore, that I might make tools.

a big overarching theme of enoch as well as noah has to do with technology, and the revealing/teaching of it from heavenly beings. in genesis, tubal-cain (lamech's son) is credited with metallurgy, whereas in 1 enoch it is described as being taught by the watcher azazel.

Genesis 4
And Lamech took two wives. The name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah..
Zillah bore Tubal-cain he was the forger of all instruments of bronze and iron.
Let's be precise here:
Enoch 8:1 wrote:And Azazel taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals [of the earth] and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all colouring tinctures.
I'm not entirely sure what the point of this is, but is missing the best comparison.

Tubal-cain was credited for working with bronze (copper) and iron. Doesn't say what he made with it. Since Cain was a man of the earth it's easy to imagine his grandson made shovels, plowshares, and other agricultural implements. Nothing says it was viewed by God as wrong, or even that he was the originator of the technology, only that he was an expert in it. He might have made instruments since family was proficient with that as well.

Azazel, on the other hand, was teaching people was how to make weapons and specifically how to forge them from metal. Armorsmithing and weaponsmithing are arts separate from other kinds of metalworking, it takes particular skills and craft to forge strong, effective weapons. Bronze is generally considered a soft metal and iron is heavy and prone to oxidation. Additionally, the Enoch accounts alludes to jewelry (bracelets and ornaments), and thus could likely include metals like gold and silver. Jewelry requires different metalcrafting skills, as it tends to be more detailed and finer work with soft metals since the intention is to make something beautiful and enticing.

Nephi is specific what he's doing. At first he says he needs to make tools to build a ship. Then he says he makes metal plates for scripture, either of brass or gold. Then he makes copies of Laban's sword for the defense of his people, which was made of fine steel. So in that regard he's doing what Azazael showed people. The Nephites made armor as well, so that was a thing too, likely also copied from Laban's armor. By that time the cat was out of the bag, since it was obviously something had among the Jews, of which the plates and sword both came. His account doesn't seem to make any parallels with Enoch, given where this stuff originated. Nephi was simply copying what he had seen, although Lehi's kids were certainly highly skilled people.

Azazael and his cohorts stood accused by having revealed to mankind certain technologies and siring giants. I don't really see any interesting parallels with Nephi. Yes, he forged weapons, but he didn't originate them. And there was nothing wrong with his children that we know of. Nephi was a king of righteousness and a protector of his people, something with which the Watchers were entrusted and failed. Not sure what I'm supposed to make of that.

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gruden2.0
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Re: Enochic/Noahic Themes in 1 Nephi

Post by gruden2.0 »

abijah wrote: November 3rd, 2022, 11:48 pm JST also happens to be nonsense.
All right then, I'll be checking out then.
abijah wrote: November 3rd, 2022, 11:48 pmThe way he opens and introduces himself "I Nephi, being large in stature..." is surely no coincidence. Him depicted as a hunter just like Nimrod (a nephilim), with his bow, and eating raw meat (what nephilim eat) that was made sweet.
You realize you're comparing him to one of the most wicked men in scriptures, right? This isn't really making much sense.

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abijah
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Re: Enochic/Noahic Themes in 1 Nephi

Post by abijah »

abijah wrote: November 3rd, 2022, 11:48 pmNephi depicted as a hunter just like Nimrod (a nephilim), with his bow, and eating raw meat (what nephilim eat) that was made sweet.
woah 🤯

didn't even notice this one till just now

1 Nephi 17
And so great were the blessings of the Lord upon us, that while we did live upon raw meat in the wilderness...
For the Lord had not hitherto suffered that we should make much fire, as we journeyed in the wilderness; for he said: I will make thy food become sweet, that ye cook it not...
  • Genesis 8
    And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
    And the LORD smelled a sweet savour...
*mere verses later*
  • Genesis 9
    Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
    But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
🤔 so first, God, after smelling a sweet smell, commands Noah "don't eat raw meat", but then permits it for Nephi+fam, causing the raw meat to become sweet...

Seems to confirm my hypothesis that 1 Nephi relates to Enoch/Noah, and that he represents an inversion of the things that caused/led-up-to the Flood.

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abijah
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Re: Enochic/Noahic Themes in 1 Nephi

Post by abijah »

gruden2.0 wrote: November 4th, 2022, 12:03 amYou realize you're comparing him to one of the most wicked men in scriptures, right? This isn't really making much sense.
I have a whole thread about how David is an inversion of the devil himself. Am I picking on David? 🙃

Bro this happens all the time. For instance Elijah is presented as an inversion of the storm god Baal. Instead of Baal bringing the rains to allow for a bountiful harvest, it's Elijah (or, the Lord through Him if we're being technical) who's word seals/unseals the skies 🌧 instead of Baal, it's Elijah who controls the thunderbolt 🌩 calling down fire from the sky

'who's the storm god now, baal?' 😏

There are many such examples.

It's certainly not meant as a slight to Nephi lol, quite the opposite. God uses his noblest servants as tools of inversion and subversion in His campaign of ousting the prince of this world. This is a thing that happens.

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abijah
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Re: Enochic/Noahic Themes in 1 Nephi

Post by abijah »

gruden2.0 wrote: November 3rd, 2022, 11:59 pmTubal-cain was credited for working with bronze (copper) and iron. Doesn't say what he made with it.

Since Cain was a man of the earth it's easy to imagine his grandson made shovels, plowshares, and other agricultural implements. Nothing says it was viewed by God as wrong, or even that he was the originator of the technology, only that he was an expert in it. He might have made instruments since family was proficient with that as well.

Azazel, on the other hand, was teaching people was how to make weapons and specifically how to forge them from metal. Armorsmithing and weaponsmithing are arts separate from other kinds of metalworking, it takes particular skills and craft to forge strong, effective weapons.
The crafting of implements of war, while not the sole use/function of tubal-cain's metallurgy, are definitely the main thing being alluded to here, and it's definitely a negative thing, siezing forbidden knowledge you aren't ready for (Genesis 3) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QafvZZT ... u.be&t=420 The idea is that azazel taught metallic artisanry for purposes of increasing power specifically for men via the masculine domain of warfare/violence - whereas on the flipside, azazel also taught metallurgy for women, via the feminine way of gaining power via beauty/seduction. 1 Enoch specifically singles-out "antimony" as the cosmetic agent used to paint the eyes, giving them a metallic sheen and lustre.
Image

The illicit teaching of metallurgy for both the masculine as well as the feminine method of gaining power and destroying others.

Your assumption that Cain and his lineage being the originators of technology & cultural arts as being morally neutral is wrong. If i were to ask you why it was that the cursed lineage was the one to develop these things? God smiling on them perhaps?...or perhaps demons in rebellion against God, teaching humans things they werent ready for, like giving a child a machete to play with.

Luke 16
And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light..

Everyone knew and knows this, no one contests this, or that this was the operative worldview for the people of ancient Israel.
gruden2.0 wrote: November 3rd, 2022, 11:59 pmBronze is generally considered a soft metal and iron is heavy and prone to oxidation.
Bronze and Iron throughout the entirety of the scriptures are associated with war, and with the antediluvian illicit pedagogy of the forsworn angels.

Job 20
When he is about to fill his belly, God shall cast the fury of his wrath upon him, and shall rain it upon him while he is eating.
He will flee from the iron weapon; A bronze bow will pierce him through.

Daniel 7
Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet

Isaiah 54
Behold, I have created the smith [Assyria] that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn.
Perhaps the best example of this is the nephilim known as Goliath https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Woo8HrO ... .be&t=3104 (click link, only a few secs long).
Spoiler
abijah` wrote: November 4th, 2021, 6:41 pmIn the David vs Goliath story, the narrative spends a lot of time talking about the nephilim-from-Gath's armour, specifically, how bronze it is. And as I noted above, the word for "bronze" and "serpent" = same word. So in hebrew, it seems almost like bronze`armour-cladden Goliath has "serpent" all over him.

Which puts David as an operative type of the Snake-crusher of Genesis 3:15, who smashes the head of the serpent. And where does David's stone hit Goliath? Right in the forehead of our brazen giant, linking up pretty solidly with Isaiah's "your forehead is brass" line.
gruden2.0 wrote: November 3rd, 2022, 11:59 pmAdditionally, the Enoch accounts alludes to jewelry (bracelets and ornaments), and thus could likely include metals like gold and silver. Jewelry requires different metalcrafting skills, as it tends to be more detailed and finer work with soft metals since the intention is to make something beautiful and enticing.
Yes, ornamentation
-----> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QafvZZT ... u.be&t=865
To further illustrate my previous points about how sometimes God uses His noblest servants to subvert/un-do that which was intended for evil, I'll bring up the example of Bezalel.

Exodus 31
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah:
And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
To devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass,
And in cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of timber, to work in all manner of workmanship.

Here we see Bezalel is cast as God's version of who tubal-cain shouldve been. He takes this craft of ornamentation and beautifying-metalwork to make the Ark of the Covenant, and many other artisanal implements for the Tabernacle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8KkjD- ... .be&t=2792

You complain about not getting why I would draw a comparison & contrast between nephi and Tubal-cain/Azazel, "arrgh, how could this be??", well the Old Testament literally does the same thing with Bezalel in Exodus as with Nephi in 1 Nephi.
gruden2.0 wrote: November 3rd, 2022, 11:59 pmNephi is specific what he's doing. At first he says he needs to make tools to build a ship. Then he says he makes metal plates for scripture, either of brass or gold. Then he makes copies of Laban's sword for the defense of his people, which was made of fine steel. So in that regard he's doing what Azazael showed people. The Nephites made armor as well, so that was a thing too, likely also copied from Laban's armor. By that time the cat was out of the bag, since it was obviously something had among the Jews, of which the plates and sword both came. His account doesn't seem to make any parallels with Enoch, given where this stuff originated. Nephi was simply copying what he had seen, although Lehi's kids were certainly highly skilled people.

Azazael and his cohorts stood accused by having revealed to mankind certain technologies and siring giants. I don't really see any interesting parallels with Nephi. Yes, he forged weapons, but he didn't originate them. And there was nothing wrong with his children that we know of. Nephi was a king of righteousness and a protector of his people, something with which the Watchers were entrusted and failed. Not sure what I'm supposed to make of that.
The origins of technology (Cain and his lineage) are dark and scandalous. God is doing with Nephi just as he did with Noah, in that he is taking technology/"techne" and redeeming it, putting it to the purpose of salvation & preservation as opposed to death & destruction.

Technology is a huge factor involved w/ what precipitated the Flood, yet God redeems it via using that very technological skill & know-how to construct a ship, to save Noah's family and bring them to a new world. Just as God redeems technology in the narrative of Nephi, regarding metallurgy, woodworking and the Liahona of "curious workmanship", bringing their family to a new world on a ship.

If you've read through this thread and still can't make out all the different connections, then sorry idk what to do, I can't see for you. :P

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