Prepping Maps

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mudflap
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Prepping Maps

Post by mudflap »

Maybe we could all share useful maps for prepping? I'll start:

https://data.montgomeryadvertiser.com/t ... hive/utah/ (stuck on Utah*)

Here's an interactive tornado map - shows tornado paths and strengths for every state in the USA from 1950 to 2021. Useful for planning when you're thinking about buying property. I checked near my cabin - one tornado since 1950, which is really good considering AL is one of the most dangerous places for tornadoes. Seems like the little hills they call mountains around here protect our little haven.

*you know how I survived that 1999 downtown EF2 tornado? Every day at lunch on a certain day of the week, I would take a walk with a friend who worked at the BLM - we would walk up State Street to the capital, and then back down to our offices - I worked at the phone company on 2nd South and 2nd East. Well, he had an unexpected meeting that day and had to cancel. We would have been right in the middle of the storm where all the trees blew down near the capital, had we gone out. Divine Providence...

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mudflap
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Re: Prepping Maps

Post by mudflap »

https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/
enter a size for a nuclear detonation for your city and see what the damage might be

or this static map: Image

or this one: https://www.nuclearwarmap.com/simulation02.html

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Niemand
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Re: Prepping Maps

Post by Niemand »

mudflap wrote: January 21st, 2022, 7:39 am https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/
enter a size for a nuclear detonation for your city and see what the damage might be

or this static map: Image

or this one: https://www.nuclearwarmap.com/simulation02.html
That doesn't even cover the whole thing. Any town of 100,000 people (or much lower) or minor military facility is a potential target. You can also count in major power stations, factory plants and so on.

The one saving grace would be how many of these missiles could be shot down before reaching their targets. Hopefully a number would disappear into the Pacific or Atlantic.

You would also have to factor in horrors such as run off and fallout. Wind will blow it in particular directions and water will wash it out other ways. Half of the USA is drained by the same watershed - i.e. the Mississippi-Missori basin.

Also remember that Canada will be targetted, and that includes major cities such as Ottawa, Vancouver, Montreal, Toronto, Winnipeg, Quebec City etc. That's worst for the Canadians of course, but some of these will affect parts of the USA as well.

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mudflap
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Re: Prepping Maps

Post by mudflap »

Niemand wrote: January 21st, 2022, 8:57 am
mudflap wrote: January 21st, 2022, 7:39 am https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/
enter a size for a nuclear detonation for your city and see what the damage might be

or this static map: Image

or this one: https://www.nuclearwarmap.com/simulation02.html
That doesn't even cover the whole thing. Any town of 100,000 people (or much lower) or minor military facility is a potential target. You can also count in major power stations, factory plants and so on.

The one saving grace would be how many of these missiles could be shot down before reaching their targets. Hopefully a number would disappear into the Pacific or Atlantic.

You would also have to factor in horrors such as run off and fallout. Wind will blow it in particular directions and water will wash it out other ways. Half of the USA is drained by the same watershed - i.e. the Mississippi-Missori basin.

Also remember that Canada will be targetted, and that includes major cities such as Ottawa, Vancouver, Montreal, Toronto, Winnipeg, Quebec City etc. That's worst for the Canadians of course, but some of these will affect parts of the USA as well.
I think a lot of them would get shot down, but some would make it to target.

But my personal opinion is that these maps overstate a lot of it - big red splotchy areas - the way they teach it in school, you'd think Japan was completely destroyed in WWII, but it was actually a pretty small area in the two cities. There are always niches of survival, fallout washes off, and you can filter it out with the right filter. The radiation level drops by halves pretty quickly for the most part. Unless you are right there or within a few miles, you'll probably survive the initial blast. Most bombs are only going to destroy a 10-15 mile area.

The real effects are the long term ones - the destruction of infrastructure - what do you do for electricity/water/food/clothing/shelter/transportation/communications after an attack? We had tornadoes in 2011 that took out power for over a week - folks were lined up for miles at gas stations that had generators, cops were escorting folks one at a time into darkened grocery stores to buy bread, looting and shooting was crazy - none of it was reported very well. That was just for a power outage for a week. imagine the breakdown if it went on for months/years.

The other unknown is the EMP attack - how wide of an area would be affected? What exactly are the effects of an EMP - does it fry your car computer? your cell phone? house lights? are non-soldered (big electronics like on my old tractor) affected? no one really knows.

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Niemand
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Re: Prepping Maps

Post by Niemand »

mudflap wrote: January 21st, 2022, 9:31 am
Niemand wrote: January 21st, 2022, 8:57 am
mudflap wrote: January 21st, 2022, 7:39 am https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/
enter a size for a nuclear detonation for your city and see what the damage might be

or this static map: Image

or this one: https://www.nuclearwarmap.com/simulation02.html
That doesn't even cover the whole thing. Any town of 100,000 people (or much lower) or minor military facility is a potential target. You can also count in major power stations, factory plants and so on.

The one saving grace would be how many of these missiles could be shot down before reaching their targets. Hopefully a number would disappear into the Pacific or Atlantic.

You would also have to factor in horrors such as run off and fallout. Wind will blow it in particular directions and water will wash it out other ways. Half of the USA is drained by the same watershed - i.e. the Mississippi-Missori basin.

Also remember that Canada will be targetted, and that includes major cities such as Ottawa, Vancouver, Montreal, Toronto, Winnipeg, Quebec City etc. That's worst for the Canadians of course, but some of these will affect parts of the USA as well.
I think a lot of them would get shot down, but some would make it to target.

But my personal opinion is that these maps overstate a lot of it - big red splotchy areas - the way they teach it in school, you'd think Japan was completely destroyed in WWII, but it was actually a pretty small area in the two cities. There are always niches of survival, fallout washes off, and you can filter it out with the right filter. The radiation level drops by halves pretty quickly for the most part. Unless you are right there or within a few miles, you'll probably survive the initial blast. Most bombs are only going to destroy a 10-15 mile area.

The real effects are the long term ones - the destruction of infrastructure - what do you do for electricity/water/food/clothing/shelter/transportation/communications after an attack? We had tornadoes in 2011 that took out power for over a week - folks were lined up for miles at gas stations that had generators, cops were escorting folks one at a time into darkened grocery stores to buy bread, looting and shooting was crazy - none of it was reported very well. That was just for a power outage for a week. imagine the breakdown if it went on for months/years.

The other unknown is the EMP attack - how wide of an area would be affected? What exactly are the effects of an EMP - does it fry your car computer? your cell phone? house lights? are non-soldered (big electronics like on my old tractor) affected? no one really knows.
I've visited both Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Nagasaki is a hilly city which meant parts of it were preserved. Hiroshima was on a coastal plain, which meant the damage was extensive and can still be seen in some place. They were also two different types of bomb. These are a lot smaller than most of today's nukes, although I suspect Israel, North Korea, maybe Pakistan and India have nukes in that scale. (None of these are a big threat IMHO. I think NK is a threat to its neighbours, Japan, Taiwan, Guam - I doubt they could hit most of the USA. To strike Europe, North Korean nukes would go over Russian and Chinese airspace and I don't think either of them would be happy.)

The Tsar Bomba is the biggest ever detonated, and makes the Fat Man look like a baby.
Image

A nuclear power probably has a handful of tsar bomba type weapons. They pose a risk to the people who have them... but the more logical attack method against the USA would be a hail of much smaller ones, more chance of them gettinf through.

A tsar bomba type yield would obliterate large cities like London
Image

And NYC-NJ
Image

It would also wipe out cities like Greater Sydney in Australia.

The best way for a small country to strike the USA would be a nuke sneaked aboard a container ship - something like that. It would evade most defence systems and be undetectable until too late. That could be used against coastal cities - NYC would be a prime target of course, dense population etc. San Francisco would be another option. You could probably do it against New Orleans, maybe Seattle.

EMP has been tested in the past. Starfish Prime caused extensive damage in Hawaii even though it was detonated nearly a thousand miles away. It interfered with some satellites too. I think the Soviets also did tests and managed to effect people in Finland a good distance away.

One scenario for western Europe would have been one or two EMP bursts. If you can affect stuff a thousand miles away, you could take out most of the core of Europe out with a single burst - most of the southern UK, Netherlands, northern France, southern Germany, Switzerland, and Belgium certainly. in North American terms, you probably wouldn't want to be in the area of New England, peninsular Ontario, southern Quebec etc, or probably near the Great Lakes. The other place to strike would be California, which would take out the Pacific north west, maybe even parts of Mexico.

Apparently one of the big issues with this eruption in Tonga is going to be rainwater.

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harakim
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Re: Prepping Maps

Post by harakim »

mudflap wrote: January 21st, 2022, 9:31 am
Niemand wrote: January 21st, 2022, 8:57 am
mudflap wrote: January 21st, 2022, 7:39 am https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/
enter a size for a nuclear detonation for your city and see what the damage might be

or this static map: Image

or this one: https://www.nuclearwarmap.com/simulation02.html
That doesn't even cover the whole thing. Any town of 100,000 people (or much lower) or minor military facility is a potential target. You can also count in major power stations, factory plants and so on.

The one saving grace would be how many of these missiles could be shot down before reaching their targets. Hopefully a number would disappear into the Pacific or Atlantic.

You would also have to factor in horrors such as run off and fallout. Wind will blow it in particular directions and water will wash it out other ways. Half of the USA is drained by the same watershed - i.e. the Mississippi-Missori basin.

Also remember that Canada will be targetted, and that includes major cities such as Ottawa, Vancouver, Montreal, Toronto, Winnipeg, Quebec City etc. That's worst for the Canadians of course, but some of these will affect parts of the USA as well.
I think a lot of them would get shot down, but some would make it to target.

But my personal opinion is that these maps overstate a lot of it - big red splotchy areas - the way they teach it in school, you'd think Japan was completely destroyed in WWII, but it was actually a pretty small area in the two cities. There are always niches of survival, fallout washes off, and you can filter it out with the right filter. The radiation level drops by halves pretty quickly for the most part. Unless you are right there or within a few miles, you'll probably survive the initial blast. Most bombs are only going to destroy a 10-15 mile area.

The real effects are the long term ones - the destruction of infrastructure - what do you do for electricity/water/food/clothing/shelter/transportation/communications after an attack? We had tornadoes in 2011 that took out power for over a week - folks were lined up for miles at gas stations that had generators, cops were escorting folks one at a time into darkened grocery stores to buy bread, looting and shooting was crazy - none of it was reported very well. That was just for a power outage for a week. imagine the breakdown if it went on for months/years.

The other unknown is the EMP attack - how wide of an area would be affected? What exactly are the effects of an EMP - does it fry your car computer? your cell phone? house lights? are non-soldered (big electronics like on my old tractor) affected? no one really knows.
The reason the splotches are so large is because the missiles are somewhat inaccurate and because they will launch multiple missiles, each containing multiple warheads at each target of importance. They do this because they are in accurate, it is likely that some will be shot down and some (as is know to be the case with Russia) will just not work at all. So if they fire enough, it's believed to be likely they will hit the target.

I noticed that this map is shifted in many cases from the actual target. I don't know how accurate it is.

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Niemand
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Re: Prepping Maps

Post by Niemand »

harakim wrote: January 21st, 2022, 6:03 pm
mudflap wrote: January 21st, 2022, 9:31 am
Niemand wrote: January 21st, 2022, 8:57 am
mudflap wrote: January 21st, 2022, 7:39 am https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/
enter a size for a nuclear detonation for your city and see what the damage might be

or this static map: Image

or this one: https://www.nuclearwarmap.com/simulation02.html
That doesn't even cover the whole thing. Any town of 100,000 people (or much lower) or minor military facility is a potential target. You can also count in major power stations, factory plants and so on.

The one saving grace would be how many of these missiles could be shot down before reaching their targets. Hopefully a number would disappear into the Pacific or Atlantic.

You would also have to factor in horrors such as run off and fallout. Wind will blow it in particular directions and water will wash it out other ways. Half of the USA is drained by the same watershed - i.e. the Mississippi-Missori basin.

Also remember that Canada will be targetted, and that includes major cities such as Ottawa, Vancouver, Montreal, Toronto, Winnipeg, Quebec City etc. That's worst for the Canadians of course, but some of these will affect parts of the USA as well.
I think a lot of them would get shot down, but some would make it to target.

But my personal opinion is that these maps overstate a lot of it - big red splotchy areas - the way they teach it in school, you'd think Japan was completely destroyed in WWII, but it was actually a pretty small area in the two cities. There are always niches of survival, fallout washes off, and you can filter it out with the right filter. The radiation level drops by halves pretty quickly for the most part. Unless you are right there or within a few miles, you'll probably survive the initial blast. Most bombs are only going to destroy a 10-15 mile area.

The real effects are the long term ones - the destruction of infrastructure - what do you do for electricity/water/food/clothing/shelter/transportation/communications after an attack? We had tornadoes in 2011 that took out power for over a week - folks were lined up for miles at gas stations that had generators, cops were escorting folks one at a time into darkened grocery stores to buy bread, looting and shooting was crazy - none of it was reported very well. That was just for a power outage for a week. imagine the breakdown if it went on for months/years.

The other unknown is the EMP attack - how wide of an area would be affected? What exactly are the effects of an EMP - does it fry your car computer? your cell phone? house lights? are non-soldered (big electronics like on my old tractor) affected? no one really knows.
The reason the splotches are so large is because the missiles are somewhat inaccurate and because they will launch multiple missiles, each containing multiple warheads at each target of importance. They do this because they are in accurate, it is likely that some will be shot down and some (as is know to be the case with Russia) will just not work at all. So if they fire enough, it's believed to be likely they will hit the target.

I noticed that this map is shifted in many cases from the actual target. I don't know how accurate it is.
Some areas will be a turkey shoot. Take Central Scotland, for example, which I know very well, it includes Glasgow and Edinburgh (both major cities), Faslane (which is where the UK's nuclear subs are stationed), Rosyth (one of the UK's main naval facilities), several RAF stations (e.g. Leuchars), several major power stations, a number of significant army bases (e.g. Kirkliston), a major chemical plant (Grangemouth) and that's just off the top of my head. That means multiple targets within a hundred miles of each other. Glasgow particularly is going to be in trouble, not only does it have nearly a million people living in or near it, the fact it is within a short distance of the nuclear sub base at Faslane makes the area a double target. Half of Scotland at least will be affected by the fall out.

By the way, I think it's obvious that the USA has the best hardware in military terms, but some of that will fail (simply because these things do). The Russians and Chinese do have weaponry which is *very* formidable, and not to be sneered at. Sure, some of it will be unreliable (Russian tech tends to be like that), but they've a lot of it and some of it is advanced. The worst part of it is that China probably wouldn't have all this if the west hadn't turned it into its manufacturing base, which has boosted their ability to build this stuff. I'm not hugely worried about Iran or North Korea although both have potential to cause trouble within their region.

These missiles don't have to be fully accurate, in the NYC area, if you hit New Jersey or even the east of Long Island rather than Manhattan, you're going to kill hundreds of thousands, minimum. In many parts of western Europe, you could land those things anywhere and do significant damage. Maybe not most of Scandinavia, but almost anywhere else.

Also, I suspect Idaho should have more splotches. I know a lot of it is remote, and that's why survivalists go there, but we get some missionaries from there and they tell me there are a lot of military facilties there, it seems to be one of the state's main employers. You can bet the Russians and Chinese are aware of most of them.

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harakim
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Posts: 2819
Location: Salt Lake Megalopolis

Re: Prepping Maps

Post by harakim »

Niemand wrote: January 21st, 2022, 6:45 pm
harakim wrote: January 21st, 2022, 6:03 pm
mudflap wrote: January 21st, 2022, 9:31 am
Niemand wrote: January 21st, 2022, 8:57 am

That doesn't even cover the whole thing. Any town of 100,000 people (or much lower) or minor military facility is a potential target. You can also count in major power stations, factory plants and so on.

The one saving grace would be how many of these missiles could be shot down before reaching their targets. Hopefully a number would disappear into the Pacific or Atlantic.

You would also have to factor in horrors such as run off and fallout. Wind will blow it in particular directions and water will wash it out other ways. Half of the USA is drained by the same watershed - i.e. the Mississippi-Missori basin.

Also remember that Canada will be targetted, and that includes major cities such as Ottawa, Vancouver, Montreal, Toronto, Winnipeg, Quebec City etc. That's worst for the Canadians of course, but some of these will affect parts of the USA as well.
I think a lot of them would get shot down, but some would make it to target.

But my personal opinion is that these maps overstate a lot of it - big red splotchy areas - the way they teach it in school, you'd think Japan was completely destroyed in WWII, but it was actually a pretty small area in the two cities. There are always niches of survival, fallout washes off, and you can filter it out with the right filter. The radiation level drops by halves pretty quickly for the most part. Unless you are right there or within a few miles, you'll probably survive the initial blast. Most bombs are only going to destroy a 10-15 mile area.

The real effects are the long term ones - the destruction of infrastructure - what do you do for electricity/water/food/clothing/shelter/transportation/communications after an attack? We had tornadoes in 2011 that took out power for over a week - folks were lined up for miles at gas stations that had generators, cops were escorting folks one at a time into darkened grocery stores to buy bread, looting and shooting was crazy - none of it was reported very well. That was just for a power outage for a week. imagine the breakdown if it went on for months/years.

The other unknown is the EMP attack - how wide of an area would be affected? What exactly are the effects of an EMP - does it fry your car computer? your cell phone? house lights? are non-soldered (big electronics like on my old tractor) affected? no one really knows.
The reason the splotches are so large is because the missiles are somewhat inaccurate and because they will launch multiple missiles, each containing multiple warheads at each target of importance. They do this because they are in accurate, it is likely that some will be shot down and some (as is know to be the case with Russia) will just not work at all. So if they fire enough, it's believed to be likely they will hit the target.

I noticed that this map is shifted in many cases from the actual target. I don't know how accurate it is.
Some areas will be a turkey shoot. Take Central Scotland, for example, which I know very well, it includes Glasgow and Edinburgh (both major cities), Faslane (which is where the UK's nuclear subs are stationed), Rosyth (one of the UK's main naval facilities), several RAF stations (e.g. Leuchars), several major power stations, a number of significant army bases (e.g. Kirkliston), a major chemical plant (Grangemouth) and that's just off the top of my head. That means multiple targets within a hundred miles of each other. Glasgow particularly is going to be in trouble, not only does it have nearly a million people living in or near it, the fact it is within a short distance of the nuclear sub base at Faslane makes the area a double target. Half of Scotland at least will be affected by the fall out.

By the way, I think it's obvious that the USA has the best hardware in military terms, but some of that will fail (simply because these things do). The Russians and Chinese do have weaponry which is *very* formidable, and not to be sneered at. Sure, some of it will be unreliable (Russian tech tends to be like that), but they've a lot of it and some of it is advanced. The worst part of it is that China probably wouldn't have all this if the west hadn't turned it into its manufacturing base, which has boosted their ability to build this stuff. I'm not hugely worried about Iran or North Korea although both have potential to cause trouble within their region.

These missiles don't have to be fully accurate, in the NYC area, if you hit New Jersey or even the east of Long Island rather than Manhattan, you're going to kill hundreds of thousands, minimum. In many parts of western Europe, you could land those things anywhere and do significant damage. Maybe not most of Scandinavia, but almost anywhere else.

Also, I suspect Idaho should have more splotches. I know a lot of it is remote, and that's why survivalists go there, but we get some missionaries from there and they tell me there are a lot of military facilties there, it seems to be one of the state's main employers. You can bet the Russians and Chinese are aware of most of them.
People greatly underestimate the US military. It can only be destroyed from within. You are right that the biggest risk is that we manufacture our military equipment and other critical things with parts made in the countries of our adversaries. The next biggest risk is that we are leaving things open to cyber attacks. Other than that, there is basically a 0% chance another country could successfully invade and it's very unlikely they could even have a successful nuclear strike without treason or divine intervention.

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Original_Intent
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Posts: 13008

Re: Prepping Maps

Post by Original_Intent »

harakim wrote: January 22nd, 2022, 9:56 pm
Niemand wrote: January 21st, 2022, 6:45 pm
harakim wrote: January 21st, 2022, 6:03 pm
mudflap wrote: January 21st, 2022, 9:31 am
I think a lot of them would get shot down, but some would make it to target.

But my personal opinion is that these maps overstate a lot of it - big red splotchy areas - the way they teach it in school, you'd think Japan was completely destroyed in WWII, but it was actually a pretty small area in the two cities. There are always niches of survival, fallout washes off, and you can filter it out with the right filter. The radiation level drops by halves pretty quickly for the most part. Unless you are right there or within a few miles, you'll probably survive the initial blast. Most bombs are only going to destroy a 10-15 mile area.

The real effects are the long term ones - the destruction of infrastructure - what do you do for electricity/water/food/clothing/shelter/transportation/communications after an attack? We had tornadoes in 2011 that took out power for over a week - folks were lined up for miles at gas stations that had generators, cops were escorting folks one at a time into darkened grocery stores to buy bread, looting and shooting was crazy - none of it was reported very well. That was just for a power outage for a week. imagine the breakdown if it went on for months/years.

The other unknown is the EMP attack - how wide of an area would be affected? What exactly are the effects of an EMP - does it fry your car computer? your cell phone? house lights? are non-soldered (big electronics like on my old tractor) affected? no one really knows.
The reason the splotches are so large is because the missiles are somewhat inaccurate and because they will launch multiple missiles, each containing multiple warheads at each target of importance. They do this because they are in accurate, it is likely that some will be shot down and some (as is know to be the case with Russia) will just not work at all. So if they fire enough, it's believed to be likely they will hit the target.

I noticed that this map is shifted in many cases from the actual target. I don't know how accurate it is.
Some areas will be a turkey shoot. Take Central Scotland, for example, which I know very well, it includes Glasgow and Edinburgh (both major cities), Faslane (which is where the UK's nuclear subs are stationed), Rosyth (one of the UK's main naval facilities), several RAF stations (e.g. Leuchars), several major power stations, a number of significant army bases (e.g. Kirkliston), a major chemical plant (Grangemouth) and that's just off the top of my head. That means multiple targets within a hundred miles of each other. Glasgow particularly is going to be in trouble, not only does it have nearly a million people living in or near it, the fact it is within a short distance of the nuclear sub base at Faslane makes the area a double target. Half of Scotland at least will be affected by the fall out.

By the way, I think it's obvious that the USA has the best hardware in military terms, but some of that will fail (simply because these things do). The Russians and Chinese do have weaponry which is *very* formidable, and not to be sneered at. Sure, some of it will be unreliable (Russian tech tends to be like that), but they've a lot of it and some of it is advanced. The worst part of it is that China probably wouldn't have all this if the west hadn't turned it into its manufacturing base, which has boosted their ability to build this stuff. I'm not hugely worried about Iran or North Korea although both have potential to cause trouble within their region.

These missiles don't have to be fully accurate, in the NYC area, if you hit New Jersey or even the east of Long Island rather than Manhattan, you're going to kill hundreds of thousands, minimum. In many parts of western Europe, you could land those things anywhere and do significant damage. Maybe not most of Scandinavia, but almost anywhere else.

Also, I suspect Idaho should have more splotches. I know a lot of it is remote, and that's why survivalists go there, but we get some missionaries from there and they tell me there are a lot of military facilties there, it seems to be one of the state's main employers. You can bet the Russians and Chinese are aware of most of them.
People greatly underestimate the US military. It can only be destroyed from within. You are right that the biggest risk is that we manufacture our military equipment and other critical things with parts made in the countries of our adversaries. The next biggest risk is that we are leaving things open to cyber attacks. Other than that, there is basically a 0% chance another country could successfully invade and it's very unlikely they could even have a successful nuclear strike without treason or divine intervention.
Our economy is a bigger risk than anything you mentioned. If our economy collapses, our military industrial complex collapses.

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harakim
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Posts: 2819
Location: Salt Lake Megalopolis

Re: Prepping Maps

Post by harakim »

Original_Intent wrote: January 22nd, 2022, 10:10 pm
harakim wrote: January 22nd, 2022, 9:56 pm
Niemand wrote: January 21st, 2022, 6:45 pm
harakim wrote: January 21st, 2022, 6:03 pm

The reason the splotches are so large is because the missiles are somewhat inaccurate and because they will launch multiple missiles, each containing multiple warheads at each target of importance. They do this because they are in accurate, it is likely that some will be shot down and some (as is know to be the case with Russia) will just not work at all. So if they fire enough, it's believed to be likely they will hit the target.

I noticed that this map is shifted in many cases from the actual target. I don't know how accurate it is.
Some areas will be a turkey shoot. Take Central Scotland, for example, which I know very well, it includes Glasgow and Edinburgh (both major cities), Faslane (which is where the UK's nuclear subs are stationed), Rosyth (one of the UK's main naval facilities), several RAF stations (e.g. Leuchars), several major power stations, a number of significant army bases (e.g. Kirkliston), a major chemical plant (Grangemouth) and that's just off the top of my head. That means multiple targets within a hundred miles of each other. Glasgow particularly is going to be in trouble, not only does it have nearly a million people living in or near it, the fact it is within a short distance of the nuclear sub base at Faslane makes the area a double target. Half of Scotland at least will be affected by the fall out.

By the way, I think it's obvious that the USA has the best hardware in military terms, but some of that will fail (simply because these things do). The Russians and Chinese do have weaponry which is *very* formidable, and not to be sneered at. Sure, some of it will be unreliable (Russian tech tends to be like that), but they've a lot of it and some of it is advanced. The worst part of it is that China probably wouldn't have all this if the west hadn't turned it into its manufacturing base, which has boosted their ability to build this stuff. I'm not hugely worried about Iran or North Korea although both have potential to cause trouble within their region.

These missiles don't have to be fully accurate, in the NYC area, if you hit New Jersey or even the east of Long Island rather than Manhattan, you're going to kill hundreds of thousands, minimum. In many parts of western Europe, you could land those things anywhere and do significant damage. Maybe not most of Scandinavia, but almost anywhere else.

Also, I suspect Idaho should have more splotches. I know a lot of it is remote, and that's why survivalists go there, but we get some missionaries from there and they tell me there are a lot of military facilties there, it seems to be one of the state's main employers. You can bet the Russians and Chinese are aware of most of them.
People greatly underestimate the US military. It can only be destroyed from within. You are right that the biggest risk is that we manufacture our military equipment and other critical things with parts made in the countries of our adversaries. The next biggest risk is that we are leaving things open to cyber attacks. Other than that, there is basically a 0% chance another country could successfully invade and it's very unlikely they could even have a successful nuclear strike without treason or divine intervention.
Our economy is a bigger risk than anything you mentioned. If our economy collapses, our military industrial complex collapses.
Other than cyber attacks and the fact we manufacture critical items overseas, what threat is there to our economy?

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Niemand
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Re: Prepping Maps

Post by Niemand »

harakim wrote: January 22nd, 2022, 9:56 pm People greatly underestimate the US military. It can only be destroyed from within. You are right that the biggest risk is that we manufacture our military equipment and other critical things with parts made in the countries of our adversaries. The next biggest risk is that we are leaving things open to cyber attacks. Other than that, there is basically a 0% chance another country could successfully invade and it's very unlikely they could even have a successful nuclear strike without treason or divine intervention.
The US military is huge... but that's not to say that some parts of it don't screw up or its hardware go wrong. That's just a consequence of having so much of it.

I tried explaining to some old man once that cyber attacks are actually a bigger threat these days than nukes. Sadly he didn't understand. I think these spy agencies in the west spend so much time spying on their own citizenry, that they don't prepare in that direction.

I know some people think Gates and Schwab have a global cyberattack up their sleeves. Highly likely... but with the way things seem to be, independent operators are also talented at hacking and attacking online resources. There is also the possibility of some kind of viruses/malware getting on the internet which no one can remove. This is why it is actually good not putting everything online.

An invasion of the USA (or for that matter Russia or China) would be almost impossible to pull off in my view, without substantially weakening it first.

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Original_Intent
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Re: Prepping Maps

Post by Original_Intent »

harakim wrote: January 22nd, 2022, 10:32 pm
Original_Intent wrote: January 22nd, 2022, 10:10 pm
harakim wrote: January 22nd, 2022, 9:56 pm
Niemand wrote: January 21st, 2022, 6:45 pm

Some areas will be a turkey shoot. Take Central Scotland, for example, which I know very well, it includes Glasgow and Edinburgh (both major cities), Faslane (which is where the UK's nuclear subs are stationed), Rosyth (one of the UK's main naval facilities), several RAF stations (e.g. Leuchars), several major power stations, a number of significant army bases (e.g. Kirkliston), a major chemical plant (Grangemouth) and that's just off the top of my head. That means multiple targets within a hundred miles of each other. Glasgow particularly is going to be in trouble, not only does it have nearly a million people living in or near it, the fact it is within a short distance of the nuclear sub base at Faslane makes the area a double target. Half of Scotland at least will be affected by the fall out.

By the way, I think it's obvious that the USA has the best hardware in military terms, but some of that will fail (simply because these things do). The Russians and Chinese do have weaponry which is *very* formidable, and not to be sneered at. Sure, some of it will be unreliable (Russian tech tends to be like that), but they've a lot of it and some of it is advanced. The worst part of it is that China probably wouldn't have all this if the west hadn't turned it into its manufacturing base, which has boosted their ability to build this stuff. I'm not hugely worried about Iran or North Korea although both have potential to cause trouble within their region.

These missiles don't have to be fully accurate, in the NYC area, if you hit New Jersey or even the east of Long Island rather than Manhattan, you're going to kill hundreds of thousands, minimum. In many parts of western Europe, you could land those things anywhere and do significant damage. Maybe not most of Scandinavia, but almost anywhere else.

Also, I suspect Idaho should have more splotches. I know a lot of it is remote, and that's why survivalists go there, but we get some missionaries from there and they tell me there are a lot of military facilties there, it seems to be one of the state's main employers. You can bet the Russians and Chinese are aware of most of them.
People greatly underestimate the US military. It can only be destroyed from within. You are right that the biggest risk is that we manufacture our military equipment and other critical things with parts made in the countries of our adversaries. The next biggest risk is that we are leaving things open to cyber attacks. Other than that, there is basically a 0% chance another country could successfully invade and it's very unlikely they could even have a successful nuclear strike without treason or divine intervention.
Our economy is a bigger risk than anything you mentioned. If our economy collapses, our military industrial complex collapses.
Other than cyber attacks and the fact we manufacture critical items overseas, what threat is there to our economy?
Haha, literally where to begin?
If it is decided by the international banks that the USD is no longer the world's reserve currency, we are done.
If China decided to stop buying US Treasuries, or worse sell off their holdings, it might take a while, but we are done.
Find the video I posted recently about EuroDollars, if you can watch the first 5 minutes and not see that as an existential threat, you are either much smarter or much dumber than me.
The Federal Reserve is in a damned if you do, damned if you don't predicament regarding raising interest rates.
The stock market is teetering on the edge of collapse - granted, that is nothing new, but 2008 was just a precursor.

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mudflap
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Re: Prepping Maps

Post by mudflap »

Niemand wrote: January 23rd, 2022, 1:05 am
An invasion of the USA (or for that matter Russia or China) would be almost impossible to pull off in my view, without substantially weakening it first.
have you seen our southern border recently? invaders are pouring through, no questions asked. it would be easy as pie to sneak 100K troops through, undetected - just dress them up as immigrants. Can you imagine 100k highly trained troops that know how to sabotage infrastructure, and then our dumb immigration officers would just load them on buses and send them all over the country - even give them hotels and money so they can rest easy while they plan their attack.

we are already weak - Afghanistan should have showed the world that. And we haven't won a war in 60 years. We are summarily dismissing our best and brightest because they won't take the jab. You get promoted by being more woke. We've got untrained women crashing our ships into other ships - we promoted them because we are woke, not because they were competent - and I have nothing against promoting women - but I would like the best people running things, not just running things by default so we can fill a quota. that will never win wars. We've made allowances for the weaker sex in the marines and everywhere else - showing that we value "inclusiveness" rather than competency. They aren't doing that in China or Russia's military, you can put money on that.

look at this joke we call the air force:

https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display ... -aviators/
Hogg further explained that no Airman will ever be forced to fly while pregnant, even those pregnancies deemed as uncomplicated by medical professionals. Airmen who have pregnancies without complications and choose to continue to fly may change their mind at any time.
can you imagine being under attack and calling up the air force and having pilots come back and say,
"not today, Sir, my morning sickness is real bad today..."

?

so no, the only thing the US military has at this point is the perception of toughness. Actual toughness is getting retired.

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Niemand
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Re: Prepping Maps

Post by Niemand »

mudflap wrote: January 23rd, 2022, 12:03 pm
Niemand wrote: January 23rd, 2022, 1:05 am
An invasion of the USA (or for that matter Russia or China) would be almost impossible to pull off in my view, without substantially weakening it first.
have you seen our southern border recently? invaders are pouring through, no questions asked. it would be easy as pie to sneak 100K troops through, undetected - just dress them up as immigrants. Can you imagine 100k highly trained troops that know how to sabotage infrastructure, and then our dumb immigration officers would just load them on buses and send them all over the country - even give them hotels and money so they can rest easy while they plan their attack.
Even if the borders are porous, it's a heck of a job to conquer the USA. It's a vast country, heavily populated and heavily armed (not just the government.) Anyone who invades there will have to deal with militias, drugs gangs and even heavily armed homeowners in gated communities. They will also have to deal with deserts, swamps, forests and mountainous areas.

I agree that America's military is in decline. I think Vietnam was probably the beginning of the decline. France and Britain declined decades ago, China and Russia declined but have bounced back.

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mudflap
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Re: Prepping Maps

Post by mudflap »

Niemand wrote: January 23rd, 2022, 12:15 pm
mudflap wrote: January 23rd, 2022, 12:03 pm
Niemand wrote: January 23rd, 2022, 1:05 am
An invasion of the USA (or for that matter Russia or China) would be almost impossible to pull off in my view, without substantially weakening it first.
have you seen our southern border recently? invaders are pouring through, no questions asked. it would be easy as pie to sneak 100K troops through, undetected - just dress them up as immigrants. Can you imagine 100k highly trained troops that know how to sabotage infrastructure, and then our dumb immigration officers would just load them on buses and send them all over the country - even give them hotels and money so they can rest easy while they plan their attack.
Even if the borders are porous, it's a heck of a job to conquer the USA. It's a vast country, heavily populated and heavily armed (not just the government.) Anyone who invades there will have to deal with militias, drugs gangs and even heavily armed homeowners in gated communities. They will also have to deal with deserts, swamps, forests and mountainous areas.

I agree that America's military is in decline. I think Vietnam was probably the beginning of the decline. France and Britain declined decades ago, China and Russia declined but have bounced back.
yeah, I was just saying the formal military.

But we are fat. and weak. and God-less at this point. A breath of wind would topple us, IMO. Kids at my daughter's school think milk comes from a carton. I doubt more than 2 of them would know how to make a bowl of cereal. My boss thought my cabin was cool. he said if the country collapses, he's coming to stay with me - as in - he knows he's not prepared for anything but the football game.

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Niemand
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Re: Prepping Maps

Post by Niemand »

mudflap wrote: January 23rd, 2022, 1:48 pm But we are fat. and weak. and God-less at this point. A breath of wind would topple us, IMO. Kids at my daughter's school think milk comes from a carton. I doubt more than 2 of them would know how to make a bowl of cereal. My boss thought my cabin was cool. he said if the country collapses, he's coming to stay with me - as in - he knows he's not prepared for anything but the football game.
I understsnd. This country's even worse, if it's any consolation. A kind of race to the bottom.

However, I think it may surprise you who fares best in these situations. Some people have a habit of landing on their feet. They will probably fight pitched battles in the wilds of Montana and Idaho with the folk you'd expect, but destroy the TV & the internet, and the drug trade and there will be a lot of very angry people around. Organised crime is either going to try and make a deal with them or fight them. The Mafia will probably put up more resistance than supposed "activists". It's one thing to invade a place another to occupy it. Afghanistan is a case in point.

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mudflap
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Re: Prepping Maps

Post by mudflap »

Niemand wrote: January 23rd, 2022, 5:44 pm
mudflap wrote: January 23rd, 2022, 1:48 pm But we are fat. and weak. and God-less at this point. A breath of wind would topple us, IMO. Kids at my daughter's school think milk comes from a carton. I doubt more than 2 of them would know how to make a bowl of cereal. My boss thought my cabin was cool. he said if the country collapses, he's coming to stay with me - as in - he knows he's not prepared for anything but the football game.
I understsnd. This country's even worse, if it's any consolation. A kind of race to the bottom.

However, I think it may surprise you who fares best in these situations. Some people have a habit of landing on their feet. They will probably fight pitched battles in the wilds of Montana and Idaho with the folk you'd expect, but destroy the TV & the internet, and the drug trade and there will be a lot of very angry people around. Organised crime is either going to try and make a deal with them or fight them. The Mafia will probably put up more resistance than supposed "activists". It's one thing to invade a place another to occupy it. Afghanistan is a case in point.
these days, when I see homeless people sleeping under a bridge, I think: "there's a survivor of the coming collapse". I mean, a lot of them would die because they rely on handouts, but many more would probably survive because they are already accustomed to a hard life.

I agree - I don't think America would be occupied. I do think there will be large pockets of unconquerable territory - mostly Appalachia, the South and the Rockies. But weakened? definitely.

Have you ever read the George Washington prophecy? it's interesting.

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mudflap
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Re: Prepping Maps

Post by mudflap »

more prepping maps:

http://www.terrafly.com/

as you zoom around, it populates the area with wiki articles on the area.


---

This guy thinks lunar position, as well as other planetary alignments causes earthquakes:
https://ditrianum.org/

something to it, I think.

---

and pingdom - the state of the internet:

https://livemap.pingdom.com/

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Momma J
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Re: Prepping Maps

Post by Momma J »

After reading "One Second After" by William R. Forstchen we gained a better understanding of what it would mean to be self-sufficient. How to select an area based on water and distance from a major city. How to set up and join forced with friends and neighbors.

Unless you plan on living a nomadic lifestyle, defending your place on your own will be tough if groups of hungry people find your location. We are currently making friends with all of our immediate neighbors in the country. The plates of Christmas cookies and fresh baked bread are opening the lines of communication. They are sharing gardening tips for our area... which type of chickens do best in our heat... and we have cut trails through the wooded area to reach each other without exposing ourselves on the road.

Learning each others strengths and weaknesses will help if we need it in the future. I know who has children, who like to hunt, where the nearest doctor lives (1/2 mile on foot!)

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mudflap
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Re: Prepping Maps

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I need to read that one.

I always liked "Alas Babylon" - they stick together in the community and start to figure it out.

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harakim
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Re: Prepping Maps

Post by harakim »

Original_Intent wrote: January 23rd, 2022, 9:33 am
harakim wrote: January 22nd, 2022, 10:32 pm
Original_Intent wrote: January 22nd, 2022, 10:10 pm
harakim wrote: January 22nd, 2022, 9:56 pm

People greatly underestimate the US military. It can only be destroyed from within. You are right that the biggest risk is that we manufacture our military equipment and other critical things with parts made in the countries of our adversaries. The next biggest risk is that we are leaving things open to cyber attacks. Other than that, there is basically a 0% chance another country could successfully invade and it's very unlikely they could even have a successful nuclear strike without treason or divine intervention.
Our economy is a bigger risk than anything you mentioned. If our economy collapses, our military industrial complex collapses.
Other than cyber attacks and the fact we manufacture critical items overseas, what threat is there to our economy?
Haha, literally where to begin?
If it is decided by the international banks that the USD is no longer the world's reserve currency, we are done.
If China decided to stop buying US Treasuries, or worse sell off their holdings, it might take a while, but we are done.
Find the video I posted recently about EuroDollars, if you can watch the first 5 minutes and not see that as an existential threat, you are either much smarter or much dumber than me.
The Federal Reserve is in a damned if you do, damned if you don't predicament regarding raising interest rates.
The stock market is teetering on the edge of collapse - granted, that is nothing new, but 2008 was just a precursor.
Those events would be scary. However, I think they would actually improve our way of life and well-being long term (although obviously not in the short term.) Our money is all fake. The extra printing flows into the people's pockets who use it to destroy the country. If we got through a couple of weeks without collapsing (which we did during COVID) then I think it would be remembered as a great event that made our country better.

Just as one example, think of all the pointless jobs you can think about. This includes most office jobs. Even if they are useful to their organization, their organization is useless or even destructive, meaning their job is useless. Imagine if those people HAD to do something useful to survive. We would have a lot more useful stuff going on.

I don't see any of those as substantial threats to our national security, though. So what if we don't have imaginary dollars? If we all keep doing our jobs, then everything will keep humming along while we figure it out. Sure, there will be a lot of bad actors causing problems but they will be dealt with and then we won't have them causing problems anymore. Sounds like a win-win. Now if that is timed with an attack, then I think it could cause problems, but that would be a really short window. As soon as people realize there is a war and money is useless, they will give up on trying to get ahead and start living a useful life helping people. We can't buy oil for our military? Then we just come back home. That country that denied us the ability to get oil to help them out of a jam will be to blame (looking at you Taiwan.) We don't need our troops deployed almost anywhere for our security, it's for other people's security. I hope those countries will quickly realize how screwed they would be without us and help out (South Korea...) If not, we can live on a different continent from everyone like we do and not have any issues.

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harakim
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Re: Prepping Maps

Post by harakim »

mudflap wrote: January 23rd, 2022, 12:03 pm
Niemand wrote: January 23rd, 2022, 1:05 am
An invasion of the USA (or for that matter Russia or China) would be almost impossible to pull off in my view, without substantially weakening it first.
have you seen our southern border recently? invaders are pouring through, no questions asked. it would be easy as pie to sneak 100K troops through, undetected - just dress them up as immigrants. Can you imagine 100k highly trained troops that know how to sabotage infrastructure, and then our dumb immigration officers would just load them on buses and send them all over the country - even give them hotels and money so they can rest easy while they plan their attack.
That reminds me of all the times terrorists came across our border and did terrorist acts. It's so hard to stop even one, it was inevitable if one tried. Oh wait, that's another timeline I'm thinking of. In this timeline, no one has done that.

Why would they go through all that trouble when they have Eastern European and Asian matchmaking services and universities bringing them in by the boatload? They don't need to sneak across the border.

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Thinker
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Re: Prepping Maps

Post by Thinker »

“This image highlights the location of different aquifers within the US. Different colors represent distinct aquifers. Note how certain states with high groundwater usage have aquifers located near major population centers and agricultural areas (e.g. the central valley of California).”…
Image

On a somewhat lighter note… :P
15 maps explaining US https://youtu.be/GGWWKz_Losw

LostCreekAcres
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Re: Prepping Maps

Post by LostCreekAcres »

*you know how I survived that 1999 downtown EF2 tornado? Every day at lunch on a certain day of the week, I would take a walk with a friend who worked at the BLM - we would walk up State Street to the capital, and then back down to our offices - I worked at the phone company on 2nd South and 2nd East. Well, he had an unexpected meeting that day and had to cancel. We would have been right in the middle of the storm where all the trees blew down near the capital, had we gone out. Divine Providence...
[/quote]

I always try to remember this when I'm stuck in traffic and grumbling because I'm late or because some other perceived ill fate has befallen me... Divine Providence may be at hand. How many folks were able to escape the 911 tragedy because they had spilled coffee on themselves and were late, etc?

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mudflap
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Re: Prepping Maps

Post by mudflap »

LostCreekAcres wrote: September 20th, 2022, 8:38 am *you know how I survived that 1999 downtown EF2 tornado? Every day at lunch on a certain day of the week, I would take a walk with a friend who worked at the BLM - we would walk up State Street to the capital, and then back down to our offices - I worked at the phone company on 2nd South and 2nd East. Well, he had an unexpected meeting that day and had to cancel. We would have been right in the middle of the storm where all the trees blew down near the capital, had we gone out. Divine Providence...
I always try to remember this when I'm stuck in traffic and grumbling because I'm late or because some other perceived ill fate has befallen me... Divine Providence may be at hand. How many folks were able to escape the 911 tragedy because they had spilled coffee on themselves and were late, etc?
[/quote]

I know one - I had a good friend at the phone company who quit to go install 4G towers as a contractor for AT&T - he was supposed to be working on the world trade center tower 1 on 9/11. Before he went to NY, he came over to my house to show off his new Jeep Wrangler he bought with cash. Anyway, the morning of 9/11, his alarm didn't go off "for some reason". He woke up late and was trying to get across the Brooklyn bridge in his Jeep, and couldn't figure out why everyone was going the opposite direction. I didn't hear from him for a few days, but finally he called me and told me what happened. Divine Providence? yeah, probably.

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