Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

[FrankOne]

equal weight given to both emotion (fear,insecurity) and reason is like mixing in three times the amount of butter into a bread recipe. The result isn't good, yet it NEEDS some butter to be right. Any good man knows the value of the wife's input but reason must lead in a functional family.

You're saying that women are not logical but all emotion, and the husband is all logic, and the husband tells himself this garbage enough times it makes him think he's always right
In our marriage we have the opposite. My husband is more prone to emotional ups and downs, and I'm the more even-keel rational one.

nope. Again it goes to all or nothing in your replies . Men use more reasoning and women are mostly emotional. I do try to word things like what I said above to not be exlusive or inclusive of everyone but you've caught one where I didn't specify. As you'll note, I also did not use the word "logical" yet you assumed that is what I meant.

I'll repeat. Reason must lead.

etymology:
reason (n.)

c. 1200, resoun, "the intellectual faculty that adopts actions to ends,"

Meaning "sanity; degree of intelligence that distinguishes men from brutes" is recorded from late 13c.; that of "that which recommends itself to enlightened intelligence, a reasonable view of a matter" is from c. 1300.
Reason

I think you're wrong about men using mostly reason and women using mostly emotion. If there's any reasoning with men, you can be sure there's some emotion behind it, and if there's any emotion with women, you can bet ya she is reasoning, and that's what's causing the emotion. Like I said, you're just repeating some lie to make you feel entitled to make all the decisions.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Fair enough. What isn’t stupid in this modern world?

Monogamy.

Since you’re trying to speak as some kind of expert on monogamy

Simply typing the word makes me "some kind of expert"... eh?

The bar is low.

[TheChristian]

We have a far greater witness that women should be submissive and to their husbands, the Bible......
And it gives the reasons why........
So this topic is not about the struggles between men and woman, polygamy ,sex, etc, but wether we all accept the Bible instructions concerning the family unit and whom has Authority over it..........

No man made the law that he has Authority over his wife,
No man made the law that a wife has to be submissive to her husband..........

It was God Himself that made such laws ..................What man or woman can refute the commands of their Creator?
He has set the roles and duties for the Man and the woman, such is for our everlasting safety and happiness and for our earthly stability in the home and in the nation...........
And this will continue thru out the eternities for each and every one of us.........

Wives obey your husbands and be submissive to them,
Husbands, Christ has appointed you as her head, so you must like Christ show forth love for your wives as He done for his bride the church when He sacrificed Himself apon the Cross for her...........

We all ought to seek with all our hearts the gift of Charity, that pure love of Jesus of Nazerath.
Then the husband will rule over his wife in Christ like love and his wife shall be submissive thru her Christ like love for her husband.

[Luke]

We have a far greater witness that women should be submissive and to their husbands, the Bible......
And it gives the reasons why........
So this topic is not about the struggles between men and woman, polygamy ,sex, etc, but wether we all accept the Bible instructions concerning the family unit and whom has Authority over it..........

No man made the law that he has Authority over his wife,
No man made the law that a wife has to be submissive to her husband..........

It was God Himself that made such laws ..................What man or woman can refute the commands of their Creator?
He has set the roles and duties for the Man and the woman, such is for our everlasting safety and happiness and for our earthly stability in the home and in the nation...........
And this will continue thru out the eternities for each and every one of us.........

Wives obey your husbands and be submissive to them,
Husbands, Christ has appointed you as her head, so you must like Christ show forth love for your wives as He done for his bride the church when He sacrificed Himself apon the Cross for her...........

We all ought to seek with all our hearts the gift of Charity, that pure love of Jesus of Nazerath.
Then the husband will rule over his wife in Christ like love and his wife shall be submissive thru her Christ like love for her husband.

True doctrine, although definitely unpopular.

It has nothing to do with oppression, but the Spirit bears witness that this is true.

[Mangus MacLeod]

We have a far greater witness that women should be submissive and to their husbands, the Bible......
And it gives the reasons why........
So this topic is not about the struggles between men and woman, polygamy ,sex, etc, but wether we all accept the Bible instructions concerning the family unit and whom has Authority over it..........

No man made the law that he has Authority over his wife,
No man made the law that a wife has to be submissive to her husband..........

It was God Himself that made such laws ..................What man or woman can refute the commands of their Creator?
He has set the roles and duties for the Man and the woman, such is for our everlasting safety and happiness and for our earthly stability in the home and in the nation...........
And this will continue thru out the eternities for each and every one of us.........

Wives obey your husbands and be submissive to them,
Husbands, Christ has appointed you as her head, so you must like Christ show forth love for your wives as He done for his bride the church when He sacrificed Himself apon the Cross for her...........

We all ought to seek with all our hearts the gift of Charity, that pure love of Jesus of Nazerath.
Then the husband will rule over his wife in Christ like love and his wife shall be submissive thru her Christ like love for her husband.

Well said. Unfortunately, at this point, most members of the modern Mormon church are just as biased against this scriptural and doctrinal reality as they are against plural marriage. Both of these fundamental doctrines are extremely unpopular, especially among most modern women.

[FrankOne]

We have a far greater witness that women should be submissive and to their husbands, the Bible......

It was God Himself that made such laws ..................What man or woman can refute the commands of their Creator?


Wives obey your husbands and be submissive to them,
Husbands, Christ has appointed you as her head, so you must like Christ show forth love for your wives as He done for his bride the church when He sacrificed Himself apon the Cross for her...........

Some Christian teachings aren't well liked among modern women.

Of interest is the clear teaching of the fall in the Garden of Eden found below.
I've never noticed the bolded line before. Interesting. This seems to apply to this thread.

1 Peter v 3

Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands;

Ephesians 5: 22-24

22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

1 Timothy

11A woman must learn in quietness and full submissiveness. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; she is to remain quiet. 13For Adam was formed first, and then Eve. 14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman who was deceived and fell into transgression. 15Women, however, will be saved through childbearing, if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

[Mangus MacLeod]

In today's world, them thar's fightin' words! -- especially with most modern women, including the vast, vast majority of Mormon women.

[Sarah]

We have a far greater witness that women should be submissive and to their husbands, the Bible......
And it gives the reasons why........
So this topic is not about the struggles between men and woman, polygamy ,sex, etc, but wether we all accept the Bible instructions concerning the family unit and whom has Authority over it..........

No man made the law that he has Authority over his wife,
No man made the law that a wife has to be submissive to her husband..........

It was God Himself that made such laws ..................What man or woman can refute the commands of their Creator?
He has set the roles and duties for the Man and the woman, such is for our everlasting safety and happiness and for our earthly stability in the home and in the nation...........
And this will continue thru out the eternities for each and every one of us.........

Wives obey your husbands and be submissive to them,
Husbands, Christ has appointed you as her head, so you must like Christ show forth love for your wives as He done for his bride the church when He sacrificed Himself apon the Cross for her...........

We all ought to seek with all our hearts the gift of Charity, that pure love of Jesus of Nazerath.
Then the husband will rule over his wife in Christ like love and his wife shall be submissive thru her Christ like love for her husband.

If you read all of Paul's words, you'll notice he also says to servants or bondsmen to obey your masters. That counsel doesn't mean that slavery is a good thing, or any inequality or classes of people is ideal in the church. Paul is acknowledging the types of relationships people had in those days, and back then wives were the property of the husband. The entire message from Paul's sermons is that we should all be submissive to authority, even government authority. That doesn't mean that that authority of that day was the ideal or the order of God. Paul says that the young man should submit to the elder. Does that mean you should submit to your father after you are grown, or automatically give authority to the oldest men in the church? There are a lot of cultural things Paul is simply giving his counsel on, like women covering their heads, and it being better not to marry? Do you agree with him there?

Peter gets closer to the truth when he says we should all be submissive to each other. The wife is part of the church, and the church has a covenant relationship with Christ. That means the wife's relationship with Christ comes before her relationship with her husband. The husband and wife are to be one mind and one heart with Christ. And each have the Holy Ghost to direct them. Seeing that a wife can receive revelation and inspiration just as easily as her husband, the husband should come to realize that if he wants to obey God, he will also listen to and heed his other half when she is inspired by God. The more the husband and wife are united and treating each other as equals, the more the Lord will direct them together. In my experience, if the husband is not listening to his wife because he thinks he is entitled to receive revelation for the family, the Lord will inspire the husband to do the will of the wife in a subtle or round-about way.

[FrankOne]

In today's world, them thar's fightin' words! -- especially with most modern women, including the vast, vast majority of Mormon women.

yah.

the word "submit" is likely the most offensive word to most women today.

And the women that enjoy the word? What are they like?

Amazing how these verses below apply to this thread.
Productivity? I think this answers your question McLeod. I don't recall these scriptures being quoted in church, I wonder why? And what is the experience of the woman described below? Joyful and peaceful. I underlined the word 'willing' and bolded a poignant passage.

The Virtues of Noble Woman

10Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.
11The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.
12She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.
13She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.
14She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.
15She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.
16She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.
17She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.
18She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night.
19She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.
20She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.
21She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet.
22She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple.
23Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.
24She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.
25Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.
26She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.
27She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.
28Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her.
29Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all.
30Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.
31Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.

[FrankOne]

We have a far greater witness that women should be submissive and to their husbands, the Bible......
And it gives the reasons why........
So this topic is not about the struggles between men and woman, polygamy ,sex, etc, but wether we all accept the Bible instructions concerning the family unit and whom has Authority over it..........

No man made the law that he has Authority over his wife,
No man made the law that a wife has to be submissive to her husband..........

It was God Himself that made such laws ..................What man or woman can refute the commands of their Creator?
He has set the roles and duties for the Man and the woman, such is for our everlasting safety and happiness and for our earthly stability in the home and in the nation...........
And this will continue thru out the eternities for each and every one of us.........

Wives obey your husbands and be submissive to them,
Husbands, Christ has appointed you as her head, so you must like Christ show forth love for your wives as He done for his bride the church when He sacrificed Himself apon the Cross for her...........

We all ought to seek with all our hearts the gift of Charity, that pure love of Jesus of Nazerath.
Then the husband will rule over his wife in Christ like love and his wife shall be submissive thru her Christ like love for her husband.

If you read all of Paul's words, you'll notice he also says to servants or bondsmen to obey your masters. That counsel doesn't mean that slavery is a good thing, or any inequality or classes of people is ideal in the church. Paul is acknowledging the types of relationships people had in those days, and back then wives were the property of the husband. The entire message from Paul's sermons is that we should all be submissive to authority, even government authority. That doesn't mean that that authority of that day was the ideal or the order of God. Paul says that the young man should submit to the elder. Does that mean you should submit to your father after you are grown, or automatically give authority to the oldest men in the church? There are a lot of cultural things Paul is simply giving his counsel on, like women covering their heads, and it being better not to marry? Do you agree with him there?

Peter gets closer to the truth when he says we should all be submissive to each other. The wife is part of the church, and the church has a covenant relationship with Christ. That means the wife's relationship with Christ comes before her relationship with her husband. The husband and wife are to be one mind and one heart with Christ. And each have the Holy Ghost to direct them. Seeing that a wife can receive revelation and inspiration just as easily as her husband, the husband should come to realize that if he wants to obey God, he will also listen to and heed his other half when she is inspired by God. The more the husband and wife are united and treating each other as equals, the more the Lord will direct them together. In my experience, if the husband is not listening to his wife because he thinks he is entitled to receive revelation for the family, the Lord will inspire the husband to do the will of the wife in a subtle or round-about way.

What is the wise course? Shall we accept your words of revision or the plain words of the apostles , Paul and Peter? It's one or the other.

[Sarah]

We have a far greater witness that women should be submissive and to their husbands, the Bible......
And it gives the reasons why........
So this topic is not about the struggles between men and woman, polygamy ,sex, etc, but wether we all accept the Bible instructions concerning the family unit and whom has Authority over it..........

No man made the law that he has Authority over his wife,
No man made the law that a wife has to be submissive to her husband..........

It was God Himself that made such laws ..................What man or woman can refute the commands of their Creator?
He has set the roles and duties for the Man and the woman, such is for our everlasting safety and happiness and for our earthly stability in the home and in the nation...........
And this will continue thru out the eternities for each and every one of us.........

Wives obey your husbands and be submissive to them,
Husbands, Christ has appointed you as her head, so you must like Christ show forth love for your wives as He done for his bride the church when He sacrificed Himself apon the Cross for her...........

We all ought to seek with all our hearts the gift of Charity, that pure love of Jesus of Nazerath.
Then the husband will rule over his wife in Christ like love and his wife shall be submissive thru her Christ like love for her husband.

If you read all of Paul's words, you'll notice he also says to servants or bondsmen to obey your masters. That counsel doesn't mean that slavery is a good thing, or any inequality or classes of people is ideal in the church. Paul is acknowledging the types of relationships people had in those days, and back then wives were the property of the husband. The entire message from Paul's sermons is that we should all be submissive to authority, even government authority. That doesn't mean that that authority of that day was the ideal or the order of God. Paul says that the young man should submit to the elder. Does that mean you should submit to your father after you are grown, or automatically give authority to the oldest men in the church? There are a lot of cultural things Paul is simply giving his counsel on, like women covering their heads, and it being better not to marry? Do you agree with him there?

Peter gets closer to the truth when he says we should all be submissive to each other. The wife is part of the church, and the church has a covenant relationship with Christ. That means the wife's relationship with Christ comes before her relationship with her husband. The husband and wife are to be one mind and one heart with Christ. And each have the Holy Ghost to direct them. Seeing that a wife can receive revelation and inspiration just as easily as her husband, the husband should come to realize that if he wants to obey God, he will also listen to and heed his other half when she is inspired by God. The more the husband and wife are united and treating each other as equals, the more the Lord will direct them together. In my experience, if the husband is not listening to his wife because he thinks he is entitled to receive revelation for the family, the Lord will inspire the husband to do the will of the wife in a subtle or round-about way.

What is the wise course? Shall we accept your words of revision or the plain words of the apostles , Paul and Peter? It's one or the other.

Not really. The highest source of truth is God, not Peter or Paul, who weren't perfect. So don't take my word for it. You can ask God about it.

[FrankOne]

We have a far greater witness that women should be submissive and to their husbands, the Bible......
And it gives the reasons why........
So this topic is not about the struggles between men and woman, polygamy ,sex, etc, but wether we all accept the Bible instructions concerning the family unit and whom has Authority over it..........

No man made the law that he has Authority over his wife,
No man made the law that a wife has to be submissive to her husband..........

It was God Himself that made such laws ..................What man or woman can refute the commands of their Creator?
He has set the roles and duties for the Man and the woman, such is for our everlasting safety and happiness and for our earthly stability in the home and in the nation...........
And this will continue thru out the eternities for each and every one of us.........

Wives obey your husbands and be submissive to them,
Husbands, Christ has appointed you as her head, so you must like Christ show forth love for your wives as He done for his bride the church when He sacrificed Himself apon the Cross for her...........

We all ought to seek with all our hearts the gift of Charity, that pure love of Jesus of Nazerath.
Then the husband will rule over his wife in Christ like love and his wife shall be submissive thru her Christ like love for her husband.

If you read all of Paul's words, you'll notice he also says to servants or bondsmen to obey your masters. That counsel doesn't mean that slavery is a good thing, or any inequality or classes of people is ideal in the church. Paul is acknowledging the types of relationships people had in those days, and back then wives were the property of the husband. The entire message from Paul's sermons is that we should all be submissive to authority, even government authority. That doesn't mean that that authority of that day was the ideal or the order of God. Paul says that the young man should submit to the elder. Does that mean you should submit to your father after you are grown, or automatically give authority to the oldest men in the church? There are a lot of cultural things Paul is simply giving his counsel on, like women covering their heads, and it being better not to marry? Do you agree with him there?

Peter gets closer to the truth when he says we should all be submissive to each other. The wife is part of the church, and the church has a covenant relationship with Christ. That means the wife's relationship with Christ comes before her relationship with her husband. The husband and wife are to be one mind and one heart with Christ. And each have the Holy Ghost to direct them. Seeing that a wife can receive revelation and inspiration just as easily as her husband, the husband should come to realize that if he wants to obey God, he will also listen to and heed his other half when she is inspired by God. The more the husband and wife are united and treating each other as equals, the more the Lord will direct them together. In my experience, if the husband is not listening to his wife because he thinks he is entitled to receive revelation for the family, the Lord will inspire the husband to do the will of the wife in a subtle or round-about way.

What is the wise course? Shall we accept your words of revision or the plain words of the apostles , Paul and Peter? It's one or the other.

Not really. The highest source of truth is God, not Peter or Paul, who weren't perfect. So don't take my word for it. You can ask God about it.

I have, but thanks for the suggestion.

[Sarah]

Emmeline B. Wells was a prominent campaigner for suffrage, having first been sent with Zina Williams to attend the National Suffrage Convention in 1879, and was long-time editor of The Exponent magazine. Madsen writes (quoting Emmeline) as follows:

“Appraising the broadened opportunities for women that had occurred during her lifetime, she linked those achievements with the purposes God had for his children. “The inspiring influences that have been causing this uplifting,” she wrote in a 1902 Relief Society handbook, “are all in the program marked out for the children of our Father in Heaven; let those who dare, deny it! but as sure as the Scriptures are true, and they are true, so sure woman must be instrumental in bringing about the restoration of that equality which existed when the world was created. . . . Perfect equality then and so it must be when all things are restored as they were in the beginning.””



“The organization of the Relief Society, Emmeline noted years later, opened “one of the most important eras in the history of woman. It presented the great woman-question to the Latter-day Saints, previous to the woman’s rights organizations. The question did not present itself in any aggressive form as woman opposed to man, but as a co-worker and helpmeet in all that relates to the well-being and advancement of both, and mutual promoting of the best interests of the community at large. For Emmeline and other LDS feminists, the nascent woman’s movement was but a secular manifestation of the organization of Mormon women, both heralding a new age for women. Looking back at the two events, she was persuaded that “the key of knowledge was turned for her [woman], and men no longer had the same absolute sway.”… Emmeline Wells could conclude that the women of the world were “acted upon by an influence many comprehend[ed] not which [was] working for their redemption from under the curse.””

Madsen writes of Emmeline:

“It was not the partiality of God, she affirmed, that created inequality of the sexes but the denial of opportunity to women to develop and utilize the rational powers with which they had been endowed. Any artificial barriers to individual growth and development were deplorable. No limits are set for what men can do, she observed. Women should enjoy similar freedom. volunteers” were laboring “in the cause of woman’s redemption.””

… “The Lord has placed the means in our hands, in the Gospel, where by we can regain our lost position. But how? Can it be done by rising, as women“It is this longing for freedom,” she explained, “that is inspiring . . . women . . . to make war against the bondage with which they have been enslaved, and seek, by every available means, to inspire a universal feeling among men and women for equal rights and privileges in the sphere God has assigned them.””

Madsen quotes George Q Cannon:

“In a sermon on celestial marriage given in 1869, George Q. Cannon confirmed the principle as the route to redemption. Plural marriage, he said, “will exalt woman until she is redeemed from the effects of the Fall, and from that curse pronounced upon her in the beginning.” On another occasion he prophesied that “as the generations roll by nobler types of womanhood will be developed, until the penalty that was laid upon woman in the beginning, that ‘thy desire shall be to thy husband and he shall rule over thee,’ will be repealed, and she will stand side by side with man, full of that queenly dignity and self control which will make her his suitable companion rather than his inferior.”… Subscribing to at least part of his argument, Emmeline Wells urged women to educate themselves for that day. “The very genius and spirit of the age is in keeping with the cry of woman, for recognition of her position by the side of man,” she wrote. “It is the consciousness in woman everywhere, if even a latent spark of her inherent divinity lingers, that the hour is hastening when the curse will be removed.”

Madsen further quotes Emmeline:

“Do you not see the morning star of woman’s destiny in the ascendant? Why the whole civilized world is becoming enlightened with its beams. . . . There are some wise men who recognize the star, and who even say “peace and good will” to woman, and take her by the hand and welcome her to their circle, and would fain assign to her all that nature gave her intelligence and capacity to do, would lift her up to their level . . . and say there is room for us both, let us walk side by side.”

[Sarah]

I was going through my saved quotes and found the story I mentioned about the three men bowing to one of Joseph's wives. It wasn't Sarah Pratt but Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightener.


"I want to say to you as I said before that Joseph said if I was faithful, I should see greater things than the angel. Since then I have seen other persons, three came together and stood before me just as the sun went down — Joseph, Hyrum and Heber C. Kimball. It was prophesied that I should see Joseph before I died. Still, I was not thinking about that. I was thinking about a sermon I had heard. All at once I looked up and they stood before me. Joseph stood in the middle in a circle like the new moon and he stood with his arms over their shoulders. They bowed to me about a dozen times or more. I pinched myself to be sure I was awake, and I looked around the room to see where I had placed things. I thought I would shake hands with them. They saw my confusion and understood it and they laughed, and I thought Brother Kimball would almost kill himself laughing. I had no fear. As I went to shake hands with them, they bowed, smiled and began to fade. They went like the sun sinks behind a mountain or a cloud. It gave me more courage and hope than I ever had before.12

[Sarah]

Eliza R Snow 1873
You, my sisters, if you are faithful will become Queens of Queens, and Priestesses unto the Most High God.

Joseph F Smith
Some of you will understand when I tell you, that some of these good women who have passed beyond have actually been anointed queens and priestesses unto God and unto their husbands.

[Sarah]

This quote is from Helen Kimball's journal

"Sister Mary Ellen Harris, mentioned above, is living here in Salt Lake City, and is one of my father’s widows, and is known and respected by hundreds, not only for her faithfulness to the gospel, but for her many qualities of head and heart. She has testified to me that she was sealed in that temple to my father, and that she chose him because he was a man of God, though her heart was grieved that she should cause Sister Vilate Kimball one pang, but felt that if she did not take this step her own glory would be clipped. My mother, hearing how Mary Ellen felt, caused her forever after to feel kindly towards her. There were over twenty women sealed to my father in that temple for the same conscientious reasons expressed by Sister Mary Ellen;...I believe that his wives were all honest when they took this step. All had refused offers from single men, and no earthly inducements were held out to them to enter the plural order. They were given to understand that this was to be a life of trial and sacrifice, and no one was forced to enter into this order only by the power of the Holy Ghost, which bringing, as it did, conviction to their hearts, I may say did compel them to accept and obey it. Pure and exalted was their aim—they saw a glory which they could not attain to except they obeyed this celestial law, of which they would know nothing, nor can they ever understand it only by that same spirit, which will reveal all things to the humble and contrite. To enter this much talked of order...is the first and grandest step towards advancement in that great and purifying plan laid down by the Almighty, and I know that it is a divine institution, and that it places women as well as men upon a higher plane, and will more quickly free her from that bondage and curse which fell upon her through transgression, than any other, and that the ones who practice and advocate it will be the first to stand again as man’s equal, as did our first mother, Eve, in the garden of Eden...

Woman’s Exponent, vol. 12, no. 10,
15 October 1883, p. 74

[Mangus MacLeod]

Now this is starting to get a little confusing Sarah, because you're starting to offer references and quotes that are going a completely different direction from most of what you have been saying. But it is interesting.

Since no one else seems to be too interested in talking about the productive capacity of women, I'm going to offer a couple short stories. These are not from Church history, or anything that grand. They are from my own family history -- a story about one of my grandmothers and one of my great-grandmothers. Although I am a product of plural marriage in the early days of the Church, these stories are from a time period after that, after the last manifesto, after my family was no longer practicing plural marriage. But both of these women were direct products of polygamy. I am willing to say that because, as I have said before, for whatever reason, I don’t share the deep-seated negative biases toward plural marriage that the Church and most of its members have.

I have mentioned before that Tmac and I are cousins, which means that we have one common grandmother, and two common great-grandmothers. Our common grandmother was a nurse-midwife and delivered both of us, and we both knew her well and we were close to her until she died in her late 80s. The great-grandmother I’m going to talk about we didn't know quite so well, because she was gone before we were born. There is a locally famous statue that includes our great-grandfather, but in our family it is his wife — our great-grandmother — who is the real family hero. They were the parents of our grandfather. I'm going to include a few pictures at the bottom, including our grandfather when he was young, on a horse at the family farm, and a picture of our grandmother found in her nursing school graduation program.

Our great-grandfather was a logger, and ran a water-powered sawmill on the mountain in the summertime, after the snow had melted until he was snowed out again in the Fall. But while he was cutting timber and sawing logs, his wife -- our great-grandmother -- ran an alpine dairy of about 20 cows, which she and their children milked by hand every day and made cheese and butter, which they sold in nearby communities and mining camps. This was from about 1915-40. The dairy was entirely her enterprise. This was nothing she "had" to do. It was what she loved to do.

But one summer they got a late start moving to the mountain, because the timing hadn't worked out just right, and grandma was expecting and due to deliver a baby a little later than would have been most ideal, and they couldn't leave to go to the mountain until she did. Grandpa wanted to go and get started, but he knew he couldn't do it without her. They only waited about two weeks after the baby was born to take their entourage to the mountain and get started, with grandma cooking and tending the dairy, and the new baby, with the help of her other children, and grandpa operating his sawmill. Talk about babies and kids underfoot. But she did it! Like my grandpa told me, to her it was the only way to live. She loved it!

Shifting gears to our common grandmother, who married their son, our grandpa, she was born in 1902 and grew up as a frontier farm girl in the Bear Lake Valley of southeastern Idaho. She graduated from high school in 1920. Florence Nightingale was her hero and she dreamed of becoming a nurse. Her family didn’t have the resources to send her to nursing school, but when she was 19, her father approached her with a unique proposition: If she would file on and prove up on a new homestead adjoining her uncle’s ranch, once she had perfected title, he would buy the homestead and surrounding grazing rights from her to expand and add to his operation, and she would then have enough money to go to nursing school. And she did it! As a single woman in her early 20's she "took-up" and proved-up on a homestead to finance her nursing school education. After she married our grandfather, she went on to work for 50 years as a nurse-midwife, often working with a country doctor who did house-calls, etc., and she eventually delivered both Tmac, myself, and many, many other babies in that area -- all while raising a family of her own.

These weren't "pioneers" per se, and they lived long after that era, but they were very capable and productive, can-do women.

Based on these female role models in my own family, I realize that I have pretty high expectations, and it is true that I don't see many women these days cut from the same kind of cloth. But why is that? Nature? Nurture? Why do so many women today have such a completely consumptive orientation?

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[Mangus MacLeod]

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[Cruiserdude]

Now this is starting to get a little confusing Sarah, because you're starting to offer references and quotes that are going a completely different direction from most of what you have been saying. But it is interesting.

Since no one else seems to be too interested in talking about the productive capacity of women, I'm going to offer a couple short stories. These are not from Church history, or anything that grand. They are from my own family history -- a story about one of my grandmothers and one of my great-grandmothers. Although I am a product of of plural marriage in the early days of the Church, these stories are from a time period after that, after the last manifesto, after my family was no longer practicing plural marriage

I have mentioned before that Tmac and I are cousins, which means that we have one common grandmother, and two common great-grandmothers. Our common grandmother was a nurse-midwife and delivered both of us, and we both knew her well and we were close to her until she died in her late 80s. Our great-grandmother we didn't know quite so well, because she was gone before we were born. There is a locally famous statue that includes our great-grandfather, but in our family it is our great-grandmother who is the family hero. They were the parents of our grandfather. I'm going to include a few pictures at the bottom, including our grandfather when he was young, on a horse at the family farm, and a picture of our grandmother found in her nursing school graduation program.

Our great-grandfather was a logger, and ran a water-powered sawmill on the mountain in the summertime, after the snow had melted until he was snowed out again in the Fall. But while he was cutting timber and sawing logs, his wife -- our great-grandmother -- ran an alpine dairy of about 20 cows, which she and their children milked by hand every day and made cheese and butter, which they sold in nearby communities and mining camps. This was from about 1915-40. The dairy was entirely her enterprise. This was nothing she "had" to do. It was what she loved to do.

But one summer they got a late start moving to the mountain, because the timing hadn't worked out just right, and grandma was due to deliver a baby, and they couldn't leave to go to the mountain until she did. Grandpa wanted to go and get started, but he knew he couldn't do it without her. They only waited about two weeks after the baby was born to take their entourage to the mountain and get started, with grandma cooking and tending the dairy, and the new baby, with the help of her other children, and grandpa operating his sawmill. Talk about babies and kids underfoot. But she did it! And she loved it!

Shifting gears to our common grandmother, who married their son, she was born in 1902 and grew up as a frontier farm girl in the Bear Lake Valley of southeastern Idaho. She graduated from high school in 1920. Florence Nightingale was her hero and she dreamed of becoming a nurse. Her family didn’t have the resources to send her to nursing school, but when she was 19, her father approached her with a unique proposition: If she would file on and prove up on a new homestead adjoining her uncle’s ranch, once she had perfected title, he would buy the homestead and surrounding grazing rights from her to expand and add to his operation, and she would have enough money to go to nursing school. And she did it! As a single woman in her early 20's she "took-up" and proved-up on a homestead to finance her nursing school education. After she married our grandfather, she went on to work for 50 years as a nurse-midwife, often working with a country doctor who did house-calls, etc., and she eventually delivered both Tmac, myself, and many, many other babies in that area -- all while raising a family of her own.

These weren't "pioneers" per se, but they were very capable and productive people.

Based on these female role models in my own family, I realize that I have pretty high expectations, and it is true that I don't see many women these days cut from the same kind of cloth. But why is that?

Old Sorrel.jpg
SJ GG 1.jpg

What great stories. What great people. Thanks for sharing

[Jonesy]

No reference. It is a private person who wrote this to his friends who were all in similar situations.

Funny enough I did it myself and it worked. Fought it out.

Wife didn’t leave.

Took about 2 years though. Many layers had to get peeled back. Once we thought everything was good we would discover a whole new issue.

None of this was in like therapy or anything. Just good old fashioned husband and wife fighting.

Your mileage may vary though. In my case I knew that my wife loved me very much and I love her very much and we are determined to raise our kids together.

So had I tried this in a situation where the wife was already halfway out the door yeah it would have blown up.

I’m such an idiot that I just tried it on a perfectly good and peaceful relationship. Took two years but eventually resolved and I don’t want to jinx myself but I am days away from basically the type of situation that I have been dreaming about since I was a kid. The type of situation that my dad had been dreaming about since he was a kid actually.

So actually it took 2 generations and 2 full years of fighting it out to get there but now I’m in the home stretch.

wow. I stand corrected and congratulations! seriously. I've never seen that done without explosive results. My wife and I began working out this subject from the time we were married. For some reason, I began to see it occurring very early in our marriage , so the adjustments were continuous (and still are). I mistakenly thought that it would be impossible to correct a long term , solidified problem as we are discussing using a direct approach. You must have a deep bond with your wife.. wow.

The other method that I was describing is a less confrontational approach. It is to employ a full understanding of a woman's psyche and use complex psychological influence to right the relationship. It requires an immense amount of patience and a maximum amount of understanding. The key to it is being unreactive. There is no fight if you don't fight. A woman can't understand it when you don't get angry so....they begin to listen. Being firm , yet unreactive.

Just one more note that comes to mind since you said that you are "in the home stretch".

From my experience:

The process of "adjustments" never ends, so be ready for that. It's never completely 100% "solved". Emotion, fear, and insecurity are incurable. These three will forever throw out wildcards. At a certain point, you might just smile when those three pop up their heads. Like watching a child sneak a cookie, its cute....but of course, needs adjustment.

The other method that I was describing is a less confrontational approach. It is to employ a full understanding of a woman's psyche and use complex psychological influence to right the relationship. It requires an immense amount of patience and a maximum amount of understanding. The key to it is being unreactive. There is no fight if you don't fight. A woman can't understand it when you don't get angry so....they begin to listen. Being firm , yet unreactive.

I’m listening. You’re going to have to continue on this, or I’ll look into that book you suggested.

I’ve actually noticed both angles have their own merit.

In the good ol’ fashioned fight, the end of ours usually uncovers intent on both sides—good or ugly. Either way it helps to correct the one or the other. I’ve learned some really important things about myself I wouldn’t have learned otherwise.

I’ve definitely learned your side you talk of as well, but haven’t quite mastered. Maybe it’s because I don’t have the discipline yet, or don’t understand it to make the best use of it. This means seems good only if you really believe you’re right, because it almost seems manipulative in a way if not done with righteous intent. It definitely helps persuasively and allows her to listen and consider.

I'm not a master of it either. It's interesting though because mastering it makes the man a master of himself because it is more about self control than it is about teaching her. I can't say that the exact 'method' is found in that book in a paragraph, but if you read it, you'll find it's all in there. It's about being quiet when she is losing it. Its more about observation instead of action. It's about letting her talk when she needs to instead of telling her what to think . Listening, especially when they don't make sense is likely the biggest part of it where you have to bite your tongue when you want to correct their irrational thoughts mid stream.

Maintaining your own clarity is what you are doing and then let them talk themselves tired. Then... look at them with love and understanding and teach. It sounded manipulative because of how I worded it, but it isn't. The plan of what to do is in your head because it has to be ......to prepare you for the moment that things spiral. You can find the book on pdf online by searching. No matter what, any man would benefit greatly by that book. It is extremely unusual and you will find things in it that you've never heard before.

Blown away by the book recommendation. Thanks so much. It makes so much sense and gives me much clarity in a lot of things. Started with part II and kept going. I feel more confident and hopeful now.

[Sarah]

Now this is starting to get a little confusing Sarah, because you're starting to offer references and quotes that are going a completely different direction from most of what you have been saying. But it is interesting.

Since no one else seems to be too interested in talking about the productive capacity of women, I'm going to offer a couple short stories. These are not from Church history, or anything that grand. They are from my own family history -- a story about one of my grandmothers and one of my great-grandmothers. Although I am a product of plural marriage in the early days of the Church, these stories are from a time period after that, after the last manifesto, after my family was no longer practicing plural marriage. But both of these women were direct products of polygamy. I am willing to say that because, as I have said before, for whatever reason, I don’t share the deep-seated negative biases toward plural marriage that the Church and most of its members have.

I have mentioned before that Tmac and I are cousins, which means that we have one common grandmother, and two common great-grandmothers. Our common grandmother was a nurse-midwife and delivered both of us, and we both knew her well and we were close to her until she died in her late 80s. The great-grandmother I’m going to talk about we didn't know quite so well, because she was gone before we were born. There is a locally famous statue that includes our great-grandfather, but in our family it is his wife — our great-grandmother — who is the real family hero. They were the parents of our grandfather. I'm going to include a few pictures at the bottom, including our grandfather when he was young, on a horse at the family farm, and a picture of our grandmother found in her nursing school graduation program.

Our great-grandfather was a logger, and ran a water-powered sawmill on the mountain in the summertime, after the snow had melted until he was snowed out again in the Fall. But while he was cutting timber and sawing logs, his wife -- our great-grandmother -- ran an alpine dairy of about 20 cows, which she and their children milked by hand every day and made cheese and butter, which they sold in nearby communities and mining camps. This was from about 1915-40. The dairy was entirely her enterprise. This was nothing she "had" to do. It was what she loved to do.

But one summer they got a late start moving to the mountain, because the timing hadn't worked out just right, and grandma was expecting and due to deliver a baby a little later than would have been most ideal, and they couldn't leave to go to the mountain until she did. Grandpa wanted to go and get started, but he knew he couldn't do it without her. They only waited about two weeks after the baby was born to take their entourage to the mountain and get started, with grandma cooking and tending the dairy, and the new baby, with the help of her other children, and grandpa operating his sawmill. Talk about babies and kids underfoot. But she did it! Like my grandpa told me, to her it was the only way to live. She loved it!

Shifting gears to our common grandmother, who married their son, our grandpa, she was born in 1902 and grew up as a frontier farm girl in the Bear Lake Valley of southeastern Idaho. She graduated from high school in 1920. Florence Nightingale was her hero and she dreamed of becoming a nurse. Her family didn’t have the resources to send her to nursing school, but when she was 19, her father approached her with a unique proposition: If she would file on and prove up on a new homestead adjoining her uncle’s ranch, once she had perfected title, he would buy the homestead and surrounding grazing rights from her to expand and add to his operation, and she would then have enough money to go to nursing school. And she did it! As a single woman in her early 20's she "took-up" and proved-up on a homestead to finance her nursing school education. After she married our grandfather, she went on to work for 50 years as a nurse-midwife, often working with a country doctor who did house-calls, etc., and she eventually delivered both Tmac, myself, and many, many other babies in that area -- all while raising a family of her own.

These weren't "pioneers" per se, and they lived long after that era, but they were very capable and productive, can-do women.

Based on these female role models in my own family, I realize that I have pretty high expectations, and it is true that I don't see many women these days cut from the same kind of cloth. But why is that? Nature? Nurture? Why do so many women today have such a completely consumptive orientation?

Old Sorrel.jpg
SJ GG 1.jpg

Your ancestor led an amazing life. She has homestead skills but she also went to school and worked professionally. I know lots of women with this same kind of grit, determination, and ambition, they just might focus their energy on different things. Lots of moms for example focus on giving their kids as many opportunities as possible. We can judge and say, sports or drama, or music aren't important, but that's the culture we live in. Maybe it's the neighborhood you live in, but my neighborhood and ward are full of women who don't rest, who are working part-time to make ends meet or who are volunteering dozens of hours at school or with church callings, or neighborhood events. We are caring for the widows in our ward who can't do much on their own, and it can be exhausting. We are cooking and cleaning and doing laundry and taking care of home repairs. The list could go on and on. Yes, we are not farming or producing much, but the men aren't either. They get paid to sit at a desk all day and don't "produce" anything but a service. That's exactly what wives do as well. We are providing a service and it comes in many shapes and forms.

[Mangus MacLeod]

Now this is starting to get a little confusing Sarah, because you're starting to offer references and quotes that are going a completely different direction from most of what you have been saying. But it is interesting.

Since no one else seems to be too interested in talking about the productive capacity of women, I'm going to offer a couple short stories. These are not from Church history, or anything that grand. They are from my own family history -- a story about one of my grandmothers and one of my great-grandmothers. Although I am a product of plural marriage in the early days of the Church, these stories are from a time period after that, after the last manifesto, after my family was no longer practicing plural marriage. But both of these women were direct products of polygamy. I am willing to say that because, as I have said before, for whatever reason, I don’t share the deep-seated negative biases toward plural marriage that the Church and most of its members have.

I have mentioned before that Tmac and I are cousins, which means that we have one common grandmother, and two common great-grandmothers. Our common grandmother was a nurse-midwife and delivered both of us, and we both knew her well and we were close to her until she died in her late 80s. The great-grandmother I’m going to talk about we didn't know quite so well, because she was gone before we were born. There is a locally famous statue that includes our great-grandfather, but in our family it is his wife — our great-grandmother — who is the real family hero. They were the parents of our grandfather. I'm going to include a few pictures at the bottom, including our grandfather when he was young, on a horse at the family farm, and a picture of our grandmother found in her nursing school graduation program.

Our great-grandfather was a logger, and ran a water-powered sawmill on the mountain in the summertime, after the snow had melted until he was snowed out again in the Fall. But while he was cutting timber and sawing logs, his wife -- our great-grandmother -- ran an alpine dairy of about 20 cows, which she and their children milked by hand every day and made cheese and butter, which they sold in nearby communities and mining camps. This was from about 1915-40. The dairy was entirely her enterprise. This was nothing she "had" to do. It was what she loved to do.

But one summer they got a late start moving to the mountain, because the timing hadn't worked out just right, and grandma was expecting and due to deliver a baby a little later than would have been most ideal, and they couldn't leave to go to the mountain until she did. Grandpa wanted to go and get started, but he knew he couldn't do it without her. They only waited about two weeks after the baby was born to take their entourage to the mountain and get started, with grandma cooking and tending the dairy, and the new baby, with the help of her other children, and grandpa operating his sawmill. Talk about babies and kids underfoot. But she did it! Like my grandpa told me, to her it was the only way to live. She loved it!

Shifting gears to our common grandmother, who married their son, our grandpa, she was born in 1902 and grew up as a frontier farm girl in the Bear Lake Valley of southeastern Idaho. She graduated from high school in 1920. Florence Nightingale was her hero and she dreamed of becoming a nurse. Her family didn’t have the resources to send her to nursing school, but when she was 19, her father approached her with a unique proposition: If she would file on and prove up on a new homestead adjoining her uncle’s ranch, once she had perfected title, he would buy the homestead and surrounding grazing rights from her to expand and add to his operation, and she would then have enough money to go to nursing school. And she did it! As a single woman in her early 20's she "took-up" and proved-up on a homestead to finance her nursing school education. After she married our grandfather, she went on to work for 50 years as a nurse-midwife, often working with a country doctor who did house-calls, etc., and she eventually delivered both Tmac, myself, and many, many other babies in that area -- all while raising a family of her own.

These weren't "pioneers" per se, and they lived long after that era, but they were very capable and productive, can-do women.

Based on these female role models in my own family, I realize that I have pretty high expectations, and it is true that I don't see many women these days cut from the same kind of cloth. But why is that? Nature? Nurture? Why do so many women today have such a completely consumptive orientation?

Old Sorrel.jpg
SJ GG 1.jpg

Your ancestor led an amazing life. She has homestead skills but she also went to school and worked professionally. I know lots of women with this same kind of grit, determination, and ambition, they just might focus their energy on different things. Lots of moms for example focus on giving their kids as many opportunities as possible. We can judge and say, sports or drama, or music aren't important, but that's the culture we live in. Maybe it's the neighborhood you live in, but my neighborhood and ward are full of women who don't rest, who are working part-time to make ends meet or who are volunteering dozens of hours at school or with church callings, or neighborhood events. We are caring for the widows in our ward who can't do much on their own, and it can be exhausting. We are cooking and cleaning and doing laundry and taking care of home repairs. The list could go on and on. Yes, we are not farming or producing much, but the men aren't either. They get paid to sit at a desk all day and don't "produce" anything but a service. That's exactly what wives do as well. We are providing a service and it comes in many shapes and forms.

Interesting.

I now live in a very large rural ward, where one of the defining characteristics of the men is their production-orientation, and one of the most defining characteristics of the women is their consumption-orientation. This is in stark contrast to Anabaptists, where both men and women share a fundamental production-orientation, and very little consumption orientation.

I have lived in urban and suburban areas, and I have never noticed that this issue is any better there. Maybe some people simply don’t understand the fundamental difference between production and consumption.

No legitimate productive assumptions can be derived from simply staying busy.

[Cruiserdude]

Now this is starting to get a little confusing Sarah, because you're starting to offer references and quotes that are going a completely different direction from most of what you have been saying. But it is interesting.

Since no one else seems to be too interested in talking about the productive capacity of women, I'm going to offer a couple short stories. These are not from Church history, or anything that grand. They are from my own family history -- a story about one of my grandmothers and one of my great-grandmothers. Although I am a product of plural marriage in the early days of the Church, these stories are from a time period after that, after the last manifesto, after my family was no longer practicing plural marriage. But both of these women were direct products of polygamy. I am willing to say that because, as I have said before, for whatever reason, I don’t share the deep-seated negative biases toward plural marriage that the Church and most of its members have.

I have mentioned before that Tmac and I are cousins, which means that we have one common grandmother, and two common great-grandmothers. Our common grandmother was a nurse-midwife and delivered both of us, and we both knew her well and we were close to her until she died in her late 80s. The great-grandmother I’m going to talk about we didn't know quite so well, because she was gone before we were born. There is a locally famous statue that includes our great-grandfather, but in our family it is his wife — our great-grandmother — who is the real family hero. They were the parents of our grandfather. I'm going to include a few pictures at the bottom, including our grandfather when he was young, on a horse at the family farm, and a picture of our grandmother found in her nursing school graduation program.

Our great-grandfather was a logger, and ran a water-powered sawmill on the mountain in the summertime, after the snow had melted until he was snowed out again in the Fall. But while he was cutting timber and sawing logs, his wife -- our great-grandmother -- ran an alpine dairy of about 20 cows, which she and their children milked by hand every day and made cheese and butter, which they sold in nearby communities and mining camps. This was from about 1915-40. The dairy was entirely her enterprise. This was nothing she "had" to do. It was what she loved to do.

But one summer they got a late start moving to the mountain, because the timing hadn't worked out just right, and grandma was expecting and due to deliver a baby a little later than would have been most ideal, and they couldn't leave to go to the mountain until she did. Grandpa wanted to go and get started, but he knew he couldn't do it without her. They only waited about two weeks after the baby was born to take their entourage to the mountain and get started, with grandma cooking and tending the dairy, and the new baby, with the help of her other children, and grandpa operating his sawmill. Talk about babies and kids underfoot. But she did it! Like my grandpa told me, to her it was the only way to live. She loved it!

Shifting gears to our common grandmother, who married their son, our grandpa, she was born in 1902 and grew up as a frontier farm girl in the Bear Lake Valley of southeastern Idaho. She graduated from high school in 1920. Florence Nightingale was her hero and she dreamed of becoming a nurse. Her family didn’t have the resources to send her to nursing school, but when she was 19, her father approached her with a unique proposition: If she would file on and prove up on a new homestead adjoining her uncle’s ranch, once she had perfected title, he would buy the homestead and surrounding grazing rights from her to expand and add to his operation, and she would then have enough money to go to nursing school. And she did it! As a single woman in her early 20's she "took-up" and proved-up on a homestead to finance her nursing school education. After she married our grandfather, she went on to work for 50 years as a nurse-midwife, often working with a country doctor who did house-calls, etc., and she eventually delivered both Tmac, myself, and many, many other babies in that area -- all while raising a family of her own.

These weren't "pioneers" per se, and they lived long after that era, but they were very capable and productive, can-do women.

Based on these female role models in my own family, I realize that I have pretty high expectations, and it is true that I don't see many women these days cut from the same kind of cloth. But why is that? Nature? Nurture? Why do so many women today have such a completely consumptive orientation?

Old Sorrel.jpg
SJ GG 1.jpg

Your ancestor led an amazing life. She has homestead skills but she also went to school and worked professionally. I know lots of women with this same kind of grit, determination, and ambition, they just might focus their energy on different things. Lots of moms for example focus on giving their kids as many opportunities as possible. We can judge and say, sports or drama, or music aren't important, but that's the culture we live in. Maybe it's the neighborhood you live in, but my neighborhood and ward are full of women who don't rest, who are working part-time to make ends meet or who are volunteering dozens of hours at school or with church callings, or neighborhood events. We are caring for the widows in our ward who can't do much on their own, and it can be exhausting. We are cooking and cleaning and doing laundry and taking care of home repairs. The list could go on and on. Yes, we are not farming or producing much, but the men aren't either. They get paid to sit at a desk all day and don't "produce" anything but a service. That's exactly what wives do as well. We are providing a service and it comes in many shapes and forms.

Interesting.

... Maybe some people simply don’t understand the fundamental difference between production and consumption.

I believe the fundamental disconnect lies in this accurate observation of yours that I quoted.

[Sarah]

Now this is starting to get a little confusing Sarah, because you're starting to offer references and quotes that are going a completely different direction from most of what you have been saying. But it is interesting.

Since no one else seems to be too interested in talking about the productive capacity of women, I'm going to offer a couple short stories. These are not from Church history, or anything that grand. They are from my own family history -- a story about one of my grandmothers and one of my great-grandmothers. Although I am a product of plural marriage in the early days of the Church, these stories are from a time period after that, after the last manifesto, after my family was no longer practicing plural marriage. But both of these women were direct products of polygamy. I am willing to say that because, as I have said before, for whatever reason, I don’t share the deep-seated negative biases toward plural marriage that the Church and most of its members have.

I have mentioned before that Tmac and I are cousins, which means that we have one common grandmother, and two common great-grandmothers. Our common grandmother was a nurse-midwife and delivered both of us, and we both knew her well and we were close to her until she died in her late 80s. The great-grandmother I’m going to talk about we didn't know quite so well, because she was gone before we were born. There is a locally famous statue that includes our great-grandfather, but in our family it is his wife — our great-grandmother — who is the real family hero. They were the parents of our grandfather. I'm going to include a few pictures at the bottom, including our grandfather when he was young, on a horse at the family farm, and a picture of our grandmother found in her nursing school graduation program.

Our great-grandfather was a logger, and ran a water-powered sawmill on the mountain in the summertime, after the snow had melted until he was snowed out again in the Fall. But while he was cutting timber and sawing logs, his wife -- our great-grandmother -- ran an alpine dairy of about 20 cows, which she and their children milked by hand every day and made cheese and butter, which they sold in nearby communities and mining camps. This was from about 1915-40. The dairy was entirely her enterprise. This was nothing she "had" to do. It was what she loved to do.

But one summer they got a late start moving to the mountain, because the timing hadn't worked out just right, and grandma was expecting and due to deliver a baby a little later than would have been most ideal, and they couldn't leave to go to the mountain until she did. Grandpa wanted to go and get started, but he knew he couldn't do it without her. They only waited about two weeks after the baby was born to take their entourage to the mountain and get started, with grandma cooking and tending the dairy, and the new baby, with the help of her other children, and grandpa operating his sawmill. Talk about babies and kids underfoot. But she did it! Like my grandpa told me, to her it was the only way to live. She loved it!

Shifting gears to our common grandmother, who married their son, our grandpa, she was born in 1902 and grew up as a frontier farm girl in the Bear Lake Valley of southeastern Idaho. She graduated from high school in 1920. Florence Nightingale was her hero and she dreamed of becoming a nurse. Her family didn’t have the resources to send her to nursing school, but when she was 19, her father approached her with a unique proposition: If she would file on and prove up on a new homestead adjoining her uncle’s ranch, once she had perfected title, he would buy the homestead and surrounding grazing rights from her to expand and add to his operation, and she would then have enough money to go to nursing school. And she did it! As a single woman in her early 20's she "took-up" and proved-up on a homestead to finance her nursing school education. After she married our grandfather, she went on to work for 50 years as a nurse-midwife, often working with a country doctor who did house-calls, etc., and she eventually delivered both Tmac, myself, and many, many other babies in that area -- all while raising a family of her own.

These weren't "pioneers" per se, and they lived long after that era, but they were very capable and productive, can-do women.

Based on these female role models in my own family, I realize that I have pretty high expectations, and it is true that I don't see many women these days cut from the same kind of cloth. But why is that? Nature? Nurture? Why do so many women today have such a completely consumptive orientation?

Old Sorrel.jpg
SJ GG 1.jpg

Your ancestor led an amazing life. She has homestead skills but she also went to school and worked professionally. I know lots of women with this same kind of grit, determination, and ambition, they just might focus their energy on different things. Lots of moms for example focus on giving their kids as many opportunities as possible. We can judge and say, sports or drama, or music aren't important, but that's the culture we live in. Maybe it's the neighborhood you live in, but my neighborhood and ward are full of women who don't rest, who are working part-time to make ends meet or who are volunteering dozens of hours at school or with church callings, or neighborhood events. We are caring for the widows in our ward who can't do much on their own, and it can be exhausting. We are cooking and cleaning and doing laundry and taking care of home repairs. The list could go on and on. Yes, we are not farming or producing much, but the men aren't either. They get paid to sit at a desk all day and don't "produce" anything but a service. That's exactly what wives do as well. We are providing a service and it comes in many shapes and forms.

Interesting.

I now live in a very large rural ward, where one of the defining characteristics of the men is their production-orientation, and one of the most defining characteristics of the women is their consumption-orientation. This is in stark contrast to Anabaptists, where both men and women share a fundamental production-orientation, and very little consumption orientation.

I have lived in urban and suburban areas, and I have never noticed that this issue is any better there. Maybe some people simply don’t understand the fundamental difference between production and consumption.

No legitimate productive assumptions can be derived from simply staying busy.

So the men in your area are labeled producers because they are involved in food and animal production. Does that mean when you were practicing law that you were not producing, but only staying busy?

[Mangus MacLeod]

Now this is starting to get a little confusing Sarah, because you're starting to offer references and quotes that are going a completely different direction from most of what you have been saying. But it is interesting.

Since no one else seems to be too interested in talking about the productive capacity of women, I'm going to offer a couple short stories. These are not from Church history, or anything that grand. They are from my own family history -- a story about one of my grandmothers and one of my great-grandmothers. Although I am a product of plural marriage in the early days of the Church, these stories are from a time period after that, after the last manifesto, after my family was no longer practicing plural marriage. But both of these women were direct products of polygamy. I am willing to say that because, as I have said before, for whatever reason, I don’t share the deep-seated negative biases toward plural marriage that the Church and most of its members have.

I have mentioned before that Tmac and I are cousins, which means that we have one common grandmother, and two common great-grandmothers. Our common grandmother was a nurse-midwife and delivered both of us, and we both knew her well and we were close to her until she died in her late 80s. The great-grandmother I’m going to talk about we didn't know quite so well, because she was gone before we were born. There is a locally famous statue that includes our great-grandfather, but in our family it is his wife — our great-grandmother — who is the real family hero. They were the parents of our grandfather. I'm going to include a few pictures at the bottom, including our grandfather when he was young, on a horse at the family farm, and a picture of our grandmother found in her nursing school graduation program.

Our great-grandfather was a logger, and ran a water-powered sawmill on the mountain in the summertime, after the snow had melted until he was snowed out again in the Fall. But while he was cutting timber and sawing logs, his wife -- our great-grandmother -- ran an alpine dairy of about 20 cows, which she and their children milked by hand every day and made cheese and butter, which they sold in nearby communities and mining camps. This was from about 1915-40. The dairy was entirely her enterprise. This was nothing she "had" to do. It was what she loved to do.

But one summer they got a late start moving to the mountain, because the timing hadn't worked out just right, and grandma was expecting and due to deliver a baby a little later than would have been most ideal, and they couldn't leave to go to the mountain until she did. Grandpa wanted to go and get started, but he knew he couldn't do it without her. They only waited about two weeks after the baby was born to take their entourage to the mountain and get started, with grandma cooking and tending the dairy, and the new baby, with the help of her other children, and grandpa operating his sawmill. Talk about babies and kids underfoot. But she did it! Like my grandpa told me, to her it was the only way to live. She loved it!

Shifting gears to our common grandmother, who married their son, our grandpa, she was born in 1902 and grew up as a frontier farm girl in the Bear Lake Valley of southeastern Idaho. She graduated from high school in 1920. Florence Nightingale was her hero and she dreamed of becoming a nurse. Her family didn’t have the resources to send her to nursing school, but when she was 19, her father approached her with a unique proposition: If she would file on and prove up on a new homestead adjoining her uncle’s ranch, once she had perfected title, he would buy the homestead and surrounding grazing rights from her to expand and add to his operation, and she would then have enough money to go to nursing school. And she did it! As a single woman in her early 20's she "took-up" and proved-up on a homestead to finance her nursing school education. After she married our grandfather, she went on to work for 50 years as a nurse-midwife, often working with a country doctor who did house-calls, etc., and she eventually delivered both Tmac, myself, and many, many other babies in that area -- all while raising a family of her own.

These weren't "pioneers" per se, and they lived long after that era, but they were very capable and productive, can-do women.

Based on these female role models in my own family, I realize that I have pretty high expectations, and it is true that I don't see many women these days cut from the same kind of cloth. But why is that? Nature? Nurture? Why do so many women today have such a completely consumptive orientation?

Old Sorrel.jpg
SJ GG 1.jpg

Your ancestor led an amazing life. She has homestead skills but she also went to school and worked professionally. I know lots of women with this same kind of grit, determination, and ambition, they just might focus their energy on different things. Lots of moms for example focus on giving their kids as many opportunities as possible. We can judge and say, sports or drama, or music aren't important, but that's the culture we live in. Maybe it's the neighborhood you live in, but my neighborhood and ward are full of women who don't rest, who are working part-time to make ends meet or who are volunteering dozens of hours at school or with church callings, or neighborhood events. We are caring for the widows in our ward who can't do much on their own, and it can be exhausting. We are cooking and cleaning and doing laundry and taking care of home repairs. The list could go on and on. Yes, we are not farming or producing much, but the men aren't either. They get paid to sit at a desk all day and don't "produce" anything but a service. That's exactly what wives do as well. We are providing a service and it comes in many shapes and forms.

Interesting.

I now live in a very large rural ward, where one of the defining characteristics of the men is their production-orientation, and one of the most defining characteristics of the women is their consumption-orientation. This is in stark contrast to Anabaptists, where both men and women share a fundamental production-orientation, and very little consumption orientation.

I have lived in urban and suburban areas, and I have never noticed that this issue is any better there. Maybe some people simply don’t understand the fundamental difference between production and consumption.

No legitimate productive assumptions can be derived from simply staying busy.

So the men in your area are labeled producers because they are involved in food and animal production. Does that mean when you were practicing law that you were not producing, but only staying busy?

Attorneys are some of the biggest consumptive parasites in existence. On the whole, what do they produce? The single thing that the legal profession is most effective at is separating people from their money. Legalized theft? Is that productive?