Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

[FrankOne]

Thanks for all the major, MAJOR contributions to this thread, especially when it comes to the issue of male LEADERSHIP.

But where I had really hoped the discussion might go for a while, and there might be some useful discussion about the whole concept of legitimate female PRODUCTIVE contributions to the whole equation, and I don’t necessarily mean money. There are lots of ways women can make major productive contributions to a family that have genuine economic implications, but do not involve money per se. Simple frugality and resourcefulness can have major economic implications at the family level.

But, a familiar pattern that we see in the modern world and modern Mormondom is that the husband is the sole or primary producer and provider, and the wife is the big consumer. She often wants to spend it as fast (or faster) than he can produce it. Or maybe she does have a job. But she will typically still want to spend it faster than they can both produce it. The main reason most Mormon women want to have a job is so that they can have a bigger, fancier house, nicer clothes, more hair, a nicer car, bigger boobs, and at the very least try to do a better job of keeping up with the Joneses.

By nature, she is a consumer, and she believes that is her right, and even if, unlike Sarah, arguing with men isn’t a game to her, spending money is. And that’s okay. Spending money can be fun. But there’s got to be some balance between consumption and production. Just like this country, if you consume more than you produce, you’re going to be in trouble. But how many women, and especially modern Mormon women, can see this? How many modern Mormon women have any legitimate productive interests and capacity? In the Church, I can’t think of hardly any positive role models, and particularly those who have managed to balance both productive and reproductive interests and capacity. Most high power career women in the Church have not more than two children at most. And even if they do end up producing something, do they consume even more.

In the modern lexicon of art, media, government, politics and reality, perhaps the best example I can think of the hero woman role model that I am talking about comes from art -- Demelza in Poldark. In my view, Demelza is the quintessential hero woman in any age or time. She is Eve — a true help mate, and still a net producer rather than a net consumer. Ross Poldark is also a true male hero -- and a polygamist. The show clearly portrays the endless tug of war between the male nature and the female nurture -- although that hadn't really occurred to me until just now.

But a different kind of woman and her influence, have completely taken over the modern, developed world. Female nature-based nurture, including its focus on control and consumption orientation, now dominates, controls and has dominion over almost everything in our modern developed world — our governments, our policies, our economies, our churches, the media — virtually everything. At the macro level, they completely control modern culture and society, and at the micro, individual level they have our testicles and at least half of everything we own locked up in their purses.

Am I wrong?

Sarah, here’s your real chance to move beyond sex and defend the female case for neutering males and dominating the modern world. Talk about “We have learned from said experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all . . . .” While that may be true, who is it really that is exercising dominion in the modern world? Really?

Thoughts?

Poldark Delmeza 1.jpg

One thought at the moment before I lose It

One correlation to what consumerism feels like,

It feels like harvesting produce that you’ve raised or eating a cake that you’ve made.

Since you didn’t produce it or make it, the feeling of gain is hollow. It doesn’t satisfy so .... BUY MORE. It’s a vicious cycle.

[Mangus MacLeod]

Alright, I give up. Obviously, sex is more important than food.

Maybe that old Chinese proverb applies to both food and sex: Lots of food, lots of problems; No food, one problem. Likewise, Lots of sex, lots of problems, but no sex, one problem?

I was replying to him. I wouldn't keep talking about sex if people didn't keep replying to my posts. I was going to reply to yours as well. You just need to be patient and stop accusing me of things.

Sarah the Sexpert versus the Studs.

You must be so happy. But we’ll be coming back to that, so be ready.

In the meantime, any unique production (versus reproduction) oriented thoughts from a female perspective?

Or is it just: “Ah, somehow the guys will figure-out all that boring production-related stuff, and make it happen, whether we females contribute or actually pull any weight or not”?

[Sarah]

Thanks for all the major, MAJOR contributions to this thread, especially when it comes to the issue of male LEADERSHIP.

But where I had really hoped the discussion might go for a while, and there might be some useful discussion about the whole concept of legitimate female PRODUCTIVE contributions to the whole equation, and I don’t necessarily mean money. There are lots of ways women can make major productive contributions to a family that have genuine economic implications, but do not involve money per se. Simple frugality and resourcefulness can have major economic implications at the family level.

But, a familiar pattern that we see in the modern world and modern Mormondom is that the husband is the sole or primary producer and provider, and the wife is the big consumer. She often wants to spend it as fast (or faster) than he can produce it. Or maybe she does have a job. But she will typically still want to spend it faster than they can both produce it. The main reason most Mormon women want to have a job is so that they can have a bigger, fancier house, nicer clothes, more hair, a nicer car, bigger boobs, and at the very least try to do a better job of keeping up with the Joneses.

By nature, she is a consumer, and she believes that is her right, and even if, unlike Sarah, arguing with men isn’t a game to her, spending money is. And that’s okay. Spending money can be fun. But there’s got to be some balance between consumption and production. Just like this country, if you consume more than you produce, you’re going to be in trouble. But how many women, and especially modern Mormon women, can see this? How many modern Mormon women have any legitimate productive interests and capacity? In the Church, I can’t think of hardly any positive role models, and particularly those who have managed to balance both productive and reproductive interests and capacity. Most high power career women in the Church have not more than two children at most. And even if they do end up producing something, do they consume even more.

In the modern lexicon of art, media, government, politics and reality, perhaps the best example I can think of the hero woman role model that I am talking about comes from art -- Demelza in Poldark. In my view, Demelza is the quintessential hero woman in any age or time. She is Eve — a true help mate, and still a net producer rather than a net consumer. Ross Poldark is also a true male hero -- and a polygamist. The show clearly portrays the endless tug of war between the male nature and the female nurture -- although that hadn't really occurred to me until just now.

But a different kind of woman and her influence, have completely taken over the modern, developed world. Female nature-based nurture, including its focus on control and consumption orientation, now dominates, controls and has dominion over almost everything in our modern developed world — our governments, our policies, our economies, our churches, the media — virtually everything. At the macro level, they completely control modern culture and society, and at the micro, individual level they have our testicles and at least half of everything we own locked up in their purses.

Am I wrong?

Sarah, here’s your real chance to move beyond sex and defend the female case for neutering males and dominating the modern world. Talk about “We have learned from said experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all . . . .” While that may be true, who is it really that is exercising dominion in the modern world? Really?

Thoughts?

Poldark Delmeza 1.jpg

So, you'd like to talk about what "females" should contribute to society, it sounds like you also want me to respond to the notion of women dominating men in modern society. I would like specific examples of the things you don't like, because I don't see a lot of areas in life where females dominate men.

I just want to point out that in the eight years I've been on this forum, I don't think I've ever come across a thread started by a woman and contributed to mostly by women, who want to find agreement that men are dominating, selfish, lazy, or a host of other man problems. Why is it that I see thread after thread of men wanting to complain about women?

To me, this complaining could be compared to parents complaining about their children's choices. Perhaps it's their parents that need to wake up and see what they could have done better, than blaming the children for societies woes. For thousands of years, women have had the status of children in relation to their husbands. She was expected to obey him, and not the other way around. She's expected to accommodate his wishes and not the other way around. She's expected to do and follow whatever he wants. He has been the "parent" in traditional, cultural, "patriarchy" for thousands of years. Now we see in modern society (at least Western society) because of industrialization and rule of law, that women have more choices and freedom. But that also finally gives them the chance to make bad choices, just like men have always had the freedom to make bad choices. But now that women have the same freedom men have always had, we think it's simply a women problem? We set our children free into the world and they start making bad choices and we complain that they are so selfish. But often children act out because they have been oppressed at home. They're experimenting with their freedom for the first time. They have 100 times more opportunity and choices, and so they are bound to make mistakes.

Men need to not feel threatened by women, but they need to learn to work with them as equals, and stop expecting traditional "patriarchy" where the husband is also the father to the woman essentially. There should not be a husbandarchy in marriage, nor should there be malearchy in society. We've just been conditioned through tradition, culture, and lies, that this is what God wants, for men to "rule" over women. It was a prophecy God gave, that it would happen. It happens because men have more strength and power, which demands more respect, and so that power can either be used fairly and lovingly in order to bless, or it can be abused and looked at as an excuse to feel entitled to authority over their wife. Women are more dependent physically, and so men can use this dependence to their advantage. Most good men in Western cultures realize they shouldn't do this, and we are making progress as a whole, but countless women around the world are still under the thumbs of the men in their lives, because of these false traditions and because they have no other choice for their survival.

So, now that I said all that, what productive things can women do to contribute to a marriage? We are talking about work-gifts. She can do lots of work if she wants to, to help provide and take care of things, just like her husband. But her main work is to bring forth children. Husbands need to realize that this is a heavy burden and not jump to conclusions about how a wife is spending her time. If you start acting annoyed and disappointed that you come home from work and the house is a mess, and dinner isn't ready like you imagined it should be, it just shows that you are acting entitled to her work gifts. It would be like your wife acting disappointed towards you every day that you weren't bringing in more money, and that if you only worked harder or got a different job, you could make life easier. No husband would like that, and wives don't like husbands that act disappointed in her not giving more. Both spouses should never act entitled to work gifts, and the fruit of the labor of each other. If you aren't getting as much as you'd like, you have the choice of adjusting your own choices to make due, and compromise, but acting entitled to her work is not going to make you attractive. If she's not cooking at all for example, you can cut her budget for other things, and put that money towards hiring a housekeeper or mother's helper or nanny, or buying healthy convenience food. If she wants money for clothes or vacation, it will force the two of you to council together and figure out how the money could be saved if you didn't have to hire a housekeeper etc. But that can be a husband's personal boundary, that he doesn't want to pay money to go out every night, and he wants to have a clean house, and so his boundary is that those things are more important than vacations, or dates, or shoes or whatever she wants to spend money on that is more focused on her selfish wants.

[Mangus MacLeod]

Thanks for all the major, MAJOR contributions to this thread, especially when it comes to the issue of male LEADERSHIP.

But where I had really hoped the discussion might go for a while, and there might be some useful discussion about the whole concept of legitimate female PRODUCTIVE contributions to the whole equation, and I don’t necessarily mean money. There are lots of ways women can make major productive contributions to a family that have genuine economic implications, but do not involve money per se. Simple frugality and resourcefulness can have major economic implications at the family level.

But, a familiar pattern that we see in the modern world and modern Mormondom is that the husband is the sole or primary producer and provider, and the wife is the big consumer. She often wants to spend it as fast (or faster) than he can produce it. Or maybe she does have a job. But she will typically still want to spend it faster than they can both produce it. The main reason most Mormon women want to have a job is so that they can have a bigger, fancier house, nicer clothes, more hair, a nicer car, bigger boobs, and at the very least try to do a better job of keeping up with the Joneses.

By nature, she is a consumer, and she believes that is her right, and even if, unlike Sarah, arguing with men isn’t a game to her, spending money is. And that’s okay. Spending money can be fun. But there’s got to be some balance between consumption and production. Just like this country, if you consume more than you produce, you’re going to be in trouble. But how many women, and especially modern Mormon women, can see this? How many modern Mormon women have any legitimate productive interests and capacity? In the Church, I can’t think of hardly any positive role models, and particularly those who have managed to balance both productive and reproductive interests and capacity. Most high power career women in the Church have not more than two children at most. And even if they do end up producing something, do they consume even more.

In the modern lexicon of art, media, government, politics and reality, perhaps the best example I can think of the hero woman role model that I am talking about comes from art -- Demelza in Poldark. In my view, Demelza is the quintessential hero woman in any age or time. She is Eve — a true help mate, and still a net producer rather than a net consumer. Ross Poldark is also a true male hero -- and a polygamist. The show clearly portrays the endless tug of war between the male nature and the female nurture -- although that hadn't really occurred to me until just now.

But a different kind of woman and her influence, have completely taken over the modern, developed world. Female nature-based nurture, including its focus on control and consumption orientation, now dominates, controls and has dominion over almost everything in our modern developed world — our governments, our policies, our economies, our churches, the media — virtually everything. At the macro level, they completely control modern culture and society, and at the micro, individual level they have our testicles and at least half of everything we own locked up in their purses.

Am I wrong?

Sarah, here’s your real chance to move beyond sex and defend the female case for neutering males and dominating the modern world. Talk about “We have learned from said experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all . . . .” While that may be true, who is it really that is exercising dominion in the modern world? Really?

Thoughts?

Poldark Delmeza 1.jpg

So, you'd like to talk about what "females" should contribute to society, it sounds like you also want me to respond to the notion of women dominating men in modern society. I would like specific examples of the things you don't like, because I don't see a lot of areas in life where females dominate men.

I just want to point out that in the eight years I've been on this forum, I don't think I've ever come across a thread started by a woman and contributed to mostly by women, who want to find agreement that men are dominating, selfish, lazy, or a host of other man problems. Why is it that I see thread after thread of men wanting to complain about women?

To me, this complaining could be compared to parents complaining about their children's choices. Perhaps it's their parents that need to wake up and see what they could have done better, than blaming the children for societies woes. For thousands of years, women have had the status of children in relation to their husbands. She was expected to obey him, and not the other way around. She's expected to accommodate his wishes and not the other way around. She's expected to do and follow whatever he wants. He has been the "parent" in traditional, cultural, "patriarchy" for thousands of years. Now we see in modern society (at least Western society) because of industrialization and rule of law, that women have more choices and freedom. But that also finally gives them the chance to make bad choices, just like men have always had the freedom to make bad choices. But now that women have the same freedom men have always had, we think it's simply a women problem? We set our children free into the world and they start making bad choices and we complain that they are so selfish. But often children act out because they have been oppressed at home. They're experimenting with their freedom for the first time. They have 100 times more opportunity and choices, and so they are bound to make mistakes.

Men need to not feel threatened by women, but they need to learn to work with them as equals, and stop expecting traditional "patriarchy" where the husband is also the father to the woman essentially. There should not be a husbandarchy in marriage, nor should there be malearchy in society. We've just been conditioned through tradition, culture, and lies, that this is what God wants, for men to "rule" over women. It was a prophecy God gave, that it would happen. It happens because men have more strength and power, which demands more respect, and so that power can either be used fairly and lovingly in order to bless, or it can be abused and looked at as an excuse to feel entitled to authority over their wife. Women are more dependent physically, and so men can use this dependence to their advantage. Most good men in Western cultures realize they shouldn't do this, and we are making progress as a whole, but countless women around the world are still under the thumbs of the men in their lives, because of these false traditions and because they have no other choice for their survival.

So, now that I said all that, what productive things can women do to contribute to a marriage? We are talking about work-gifts. She can do lots of work if she wants to, to help provide and take care of things, just like her husband. But her main work is to bring forth children. Husbands need to realize that this is a heavy burden and not jump to conclusions about how a wife is spending her time. If you start acting annoyed and disappointed that you come home from work and the house is a mess, and dinner isn't ready like you imagined it should be, it just shows that you are acting entitled to her work gifts. It would be like your wife acting disappointed towards you every day that you weren't bringing in more money, and that if you only worked harder or got a different job, you could make life easier. No husband would like that, and wives don't like husbands that act disappointed in her not giving more. Both spouses should never act entitled to work gifts, and the fruit of the labor of each other. If you aren't getting as much as you'd like, you have the choice of adjusting your own choices to make due, and compromise, but acting entitled to her work is not going to make you attractive. If she's not cooking at all for example, you can cut her budget for other things, and put that money towards hiring a housekeeper or mother's helper or nanny, or buying healthy convenience food. If she wants money for clothes or vacation, it will force the two of you to council together and figure out how the money could be saved if you didn't have to hire a housekeeper etc. But that can be a husband's personal boundary, that he doesn't want to pay money to go out every night, and he wants to have a clean house, and so his boundary is that those things are more important than vacations, or dates, or shoes or whatever she wants to spend money on that is more focused on her selfish wants.

Sarah, just like everyone else, you’ve got your opinions. The good thing about you is that you are willing to share them.

But I think you’re kind of missing the point of a legitimate “Phase 2” scenario where by the time a wife is say about 50, no longer has any reproductive capability or interest, and is now an empty nester, but has no interest or motivation to make any productive contributions to the family, what is the husband supposed to think and do?

If he’s awake and can see what is coming, why would he not be concerned? Why would he not be concerned about the legitimate productive capacity and motivation of his family and the people he is surrounded by, as he shoulders the sole responsibilities as producer, provider, protector, etc? Why would he not consider other options for increasing/improving the family’s overall productive and reproductive capacity in a Phase 2 Scenario?

What kind of neutered man would he be if he didn’t consider such things?

[Sarah]

Thanks for all the major, MAJOR contributions to this thread, especially when it comes to the issue of male LEADERSHIP.

But where I had really hoped the discussion might go for a while, and there might be some useful discussion about the whole concept of legitimate female PRODUCTIVE contributions to the whole equation, and I don’t necessarily mean money. There are lots of ways women can make major productive contributions to a family that have genuine economic implications, but do not involve money per se. Simple frugality and resourcefulness can have major economic implications at the family level.

But, a familiar pattern that we see in the modern world and modern Mormondom is that the husband is the sole or primary producer and provider, and the wife is the big consumer. She often wants to spend it as fast (or faster) than he can produce it. Or maybe she does have a job. But she will typically still want to spend it faster than they can both produce it. The main reason most Mormon women want to have a job is so that they can have a bigger, fancier house, nicer clothes, more hair, a nicer car, bigger boobs, and at the very least try to do a better job of keeping up with the Joneses.

By nature, she is a consumer, and she believes that is her right, and even if, unlike Sarah, arguing with men isn’t a game to her, spending money is. And that’s okay. Spending money can be fun. But there’s got to be some balance between consumption and production. Just like this country, if you consume more than you produce, you’re going to be in trouble. But how many women, and especially modern Mormon women, can see this? How many modern Mormon women have any legitimate productive interests and capacity? In the Church, I can’t think of hardly any positive role models, and particularly those who have managed to balance both productive and reproductive interests and capacity. Most high power career women in the Church have not more than two children at most. And even if they do end up producing something, do they consume even more.

In the modern lexicon of art, media, government, politics and reality, perhaps the best example I can think of the hero woman role model that I am talking about comes from art -- Demelza in Poldark. In my view, Demelza is the quintessential hero woman in any age or time. She is Eve — a true help mate, and still a net producer rather than a net consumer. Ross Poldark is also a true male hero -- and a polygamist. The show clearly portrays the endless tug of war between the male nature and the female nurture -- although that hadn't really occurred to me until just now.

But a different kind of woman and her influence, have completely taken over the modern, developed world. Female nature-based nurture, including its focus on control and consumption orientation, now dominates, controls and has dominion over almost everything in our modern developed world — our governments, our policies, our economies, our churches, the media — virtually everything. At the macro level, they completely control modern culture and society, and at the micro, individual level they have our testicles and at least half of everything we own locked up in their purses.

Am I wrong?

Sarah, here’s your real chance to move beyond sex and defend the female case for neutering males and dominating the modern world. Talk about “We have learned from said experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all . . . .” While that may be true, who is it really that is exercising dominion in the modern world? Really?

Thoughts?

Poldark Delmeza 1.jpg

So, you'd like to talk about what "females" should contribute to society, it sounds like you also want me to respond to the notion of women dominating men in modern society. I would like specific examples of the things you don't like, because I don't see a lot of areas in life where females dominate men.

I just want to point out that in the eight years I've been on this forum, I don't think I've ever come across a thread started by a woman and contributed to mostly by women, who want to find agreement that men are dominating, selfish, lazy, or a host of other man problems. Why is it that I see thread after thread of men wanting to complain about women?

To me, this complaining could be compared to parents complaining about their children's choices. Perhaps it's their parents that need to wake up and see what they could have done better, than blaming the children for societies woes. For thousands of years, women have had the status of children in relation to their husbands. She was expected to obey him, and not the other way around. She's expected to accommodate his wishes and not the other way around. She's expected to do and follow whatever he wants. He has been the "parent" in traditional, cultural, "patriarchy" for thousands of years. Now we see in modern society (at least Western society) because of industrialization and rule of law, that women have more choices and freedom. But that also finally gives them the chance to make bad choices, just like men have always had the freedom to make bad choices. But now that women have the same freedom men have always had, we think it's simply a women problem? We set our children free into the world and they start making bad choices and we complain that they are so selfish. But often children act out because they have been oppressed at home. They're experimenting with their freedom for the first time. They have 100 times more opportunity and choices, and so they are bound to make mistakes.

Men need to not feel threatened by women, but they need to learn to work with them as equals, and stop expecting traditional "patriarchy" where the husband is also the father to the woman essentially. There should not be a husbandarchy in marriage, nor should there be malearchy in society. We've just been conditioned through tradition, culture, and lies, that this is what God wants, for men to "rule" over women. It was a prophecy God gave, that it would happen. It happens because men have more strength and power, which demands more respect, and so that power can either be used fairly and lovingly in order to bless, or it can be abused and looked at as an excuse to feel entitled to authority over their wife. Women are more dependent physically, and so men can use this dependence to their advantage. Most good men in Western cultures realize they shouldn't do this, and we are making progress as a whole, but countless women around the world are still under the thumbs of the men in their lives, because of these false traditions and because they have no other choice for their survival.

So, now that I said all that, what productive things can women do to contribute to a marriage? We are talking about work-gifts. She can do lots of work if she wants to, to help provide and take care of things, just like her husband. But her main work is to bring forth children. Husbands need to realize that this is a heavy burden and not jump to conclusions about how a wife is spending her time. If you start acting annoyed and disappointed that you come home from work and the house is a mess, and dinner isn't ready like you imagined it should be, it just shows that you are acting entitled to her work gifts. It would be like your wife acting disappointed towards you every day that you weren't bringing in more money, and that if you only worked harder or got a different job, you could make life easier. No husband would like that, and wives don't like husbands that act disappointed in her not giving more. Both spouses should never act entitled to work gifts, and the fruit of the labor of each other. If you aren't getting as much as you'd like, you have the choice of adjusting your own choices to make due, and compromise, but acting entitled to her work is not going to make you attractive. If she's not cooking at all for example, you can cut her budget for other things, and put that money towards hiring a housekeeper or mother's helper or nanny, or buying healthy convenience food. If she wants money for clothes or vacation, it will force the two of you to council together and figure out how the money could be saved if you didn't have to hire a housekeeper etc. But that can be a husband's personal boundary, that he doesn't want to pay money to go out every night, and he wants to have a clean house, and so his boundary is that those things are more important than vacations, or dates, or shoes or whatever she wants to spend money on that is more focused on her selfish wants.

Sarah, just like everyone else, you’ve got your opinions. The good thing about you is that you are willing to share them.

But I think you’re kind of missing the point of a legitimate “Phase 2” scenario where by the time a wife is say about 50, no longer has any reproductive capability or interest, and is now an empty nester, but has no interest or motivation to make any productive contributions to the family, what is the husband supposed to think and do?

If he’s awake and can see what is coming, why would he not be concerned? Why would he not be concerned about the legitimate productive capacity and motivation of his family and the people he is surrounded by, as he shoulders the sole responsibilities as producer, provider, protector, etc? Why would he not consider other options for increasing/improving the family’s overall productive and reproductive capacity in a Phase 2 Scenario?

What kind of neutered man would he be if he didn’t consider such things?

A wife over 50 is not contributing anything to a marriage? Sorry, I don't know any women like that. Even the ones I consider a little lazy still do some cooking and housework and shopping which benefits her husband. If you want more production, all you can do is make it happen yourself and not feel entitled to her helping out. Hire a gardener, live by one of your grown children. If you want to increase the power and production of your family, then partner with extended family. Taking another wife and expecting that she will be productive is a dream. She would be busy with small children and babies and be more mouths to feed and would actually weaken your family.

[Mangus MacLeod]

If you want more production, all you can do is make it happen yourself and not feel entitled to her helping out.

Yes, thank you for so eloquently helping to make the point. You have perfectly described the modern mainstream paradigm — and dilemma.

Subject to recognized exceptions, the reality is everyone wants to consume. Nobody wants to produce or reproduce. That is the status of our current mainstream societal situation.

[FrankOne]

My point of view on productivity and the necessity of everyone being productive, no matter the age or gender , is that a person that is not productive is miserable whether they show it or not.

A woman that feels she doesn't need to produce, because a man is directing her to do so, is the most miserable of all. She fails to understand instruction. She feels entitled. She has a Big chip on her shoulder and she becomes dysfunctional in a family and spreads her misery to everyone around her. She feels that in telling others that they don't need to follow that she is protecting them or saving them or enlightening them. In reality she is destroying the family. Look at families today and you will see the result of this type of behavior.

The man instructs a woman to be productive because it is conducive to JOY. The woman with the chip on her shoulder can't see this. She would rather stay miserable and idle than listen to any wisdom from a man.

The above paragraph is the fallen state of the world today. Men refusing to lead and women refusing to follow. Equality does not exist and it never will.

As a general rule: Men follow reason and logic. Women follow emotion. When emotion leads, the family fails. When emotion gets on a high horse , it poisons everyone around them.

[Sarah]

If you want more production, all you can do is make it happen yourself and not feel entitled to her helping out.

Yes, thank you for so eloquently helping to make the point. You have perfectly described the modern mainstream paradigm — and dilemma.

Subject to recognized exceptions, the reality is everyone wants to consume. Nobody wants to produce or reproduce. That is the status of our current mainstream societal situation.

The problem is unrealistic expectations. Just because our pioneer ancestors lived a certain way, doesn't mean it was ideal as there were negative consequences as a result of the harsh lives they lived. I don't know how many stories I've heard of wives being worked to death on a farmstead, with husband away somewhere, where some or everyone gets sick and someone dies, or children wander into a well or ditch and die because their mother can't spend time with her children. She's too busy milking the cow making cheese, or the million other work jobs that need to be done. So I think expecting a young plural wife to be a workhorse while she is trying to take care of her children is completely unrealistic. I have a husband who had high expectations for me when we were young. When I had young children, it was all I could do just to figure out dinner and keep everyone fed. I could have left my children in front of the TV all day to garden or raise animals, but then my children would have suffered.

[Sarah]

My point of view on productivity and the necessity of everyone being productive, no matter the age or gender , is that a person that is not productive is miserable whether they show it or not.

A woman that feels she doesn't need to produce, because a man is directing her to do so, is the most miserable of all. She fails to understand instruction. She feels entitled. She has a Big chip on her shoulder and she becomes dysfunctional in a family and spreads her misery to everyone around her. She feels that in telling others that they don't need to follow that she is protecting them or saving them or enlightening them. In reality she is destroying the family. Look at families today and you will see the result of this type of behavior.

The man instructs a woman to be productive because it is conducive to JOY. The woman with the chip on her shoulder can't see this. She would rather stay miserable and idle than listen to any wisdom from a man.

The above paragraph is the fallen state of the world today. Men refusing to lead and women refusing to follow. Equality does not exist and it never will.

As a general rule: Men follow reason and logic. Women follow emotion. When emotion leads, the family fails. When emotion gets on a high horse , it poisons everyone around them.

I've known so many couples where it was the husband that was the lazy one. The one who couldn't hold a job because he had a video game addiction for example. I could rewrite your entire post and switch the genders around. Wives are just as much in a position to give instruction to a husband as a husband is in a position to give instruction to his wife. A husband should be just as humble to listen to his wife's requests that he "produce" more.

[Sarah]

My point of view on productivity and the necessity of everyone being productive, no matter the age or gender , is that a person that is not productive is miserable whether they show it or not.

A woman that feels she doesn't need to produce, because a man is directing her to do so, is the most miserable of all. She fails to understand instruction. She feels entitled. She has a Big chip on her shoulder and she becomes dysfunctional in a family and spreads her misery to everyone around her. She feels that in telling others that they don't need to follow that she is protecting them or saving them or enlightening them. In reality she is destroying the family. Look at families today and you will see the result of this type of behavior.

The man instructs a woman to be productive because it is conducive to JOY. The woman with the chip on her shoulder can't see this. She would rather stay miserable and idle than listen to any wisdom from a man.

The above paragraph is the fallen state of the world today. Men refusing to lead and women refusing to follow. Equality does not exist and it never will.

As a general rule: Men follow reason and logic. Women follow emotion. When emotion leads, the family fails. When emotion gets on a high horse , it poisons everyone around them.

This last paragraph of yours has been man's false, made up generalization and rationalization for "ruling" his wife. "Yes daddy!" How about a husband who gives equal weight to his wife's opinion, the same he gives to his own.

[Mangus MacLeod]

If you want more production, all you can do is make it happen yourself and not feel entitled to her helping out.

Yes, thank you for so eloquently helping to make the point. You have perfectly described the modern mainstream paradigm — and dilemma.

Subject to recognized exceptions, the reality is everyone wants to consume. Nobody wants to produce or reproduce. That is the status of our current mainstream societal situation.

The problem is unrealistic expectations. Just because our pioneer ancestors lived a certain way, doesn't mean it was ideal as there were negative consequences as a result of the harsh lives they lived. I don't know how many stories I've heard of wives being worked to death on a farmstead, with husband away somewhere, where some or everyone gets sick and someone dies, or children wander into a well or ditch and die because their mother can't spend time with her children. She's too busy milking the cow making cheese, or the million other work jobs that need to be done. So I think expecting a young plural wife to be a workhorse while she is trying to take care of her children is completely unrealistic. I have a husband who had high expectations for me when we were young. When I had young children, it was all I could do just to figure out dinner and keep everyone fed. I could have left my children in front of the TV all day to garden or raise animals, but then my children would have suffered.

Obviously, you have never spent any time around Anabaptist families, which are monogamous, but that is beside the point: Their women know how to produce and reproduce, and are happy doing it.

Since a picture is worth a thousand words, I’ll share some.

Jr Martha Wool Handling 1.5 cropped.JPG (34.17 KiB) Viewed 226 times

Troyer Kids Wool Bales.JPG (29.24 KiB) Viewed 226 times

Troyer Family 4.7 cropped.JPG (32.81 KiB) Viewed 226 times

[FrankOne]

My point of view on productivity and the necessity of everyone being productive, no matter the age or gender , is that a person that is not productive is miserable whether they show it or not.

A woman that feels she doesn't need to produce, because a man is directing her to do so, is the most miserable of all. She fails to understand instruction. She feels entitled. She has a Big chip on her shoulder and she becomes dysfunctional in a family and spreads her misery to everyone around her. She feels that in telling others that they don't need to follow that she is protecting them or saving them or enlightening them. In reality she is destroying the family. Look at families today and you will see the result of this type of behavior.

The man instructs a woman to be productive because it is conducive to JOY. The woman with the chip on her shoulder can't see this. She would rather stay miserable and idle than listen to any wisdom from a man.

The above paragraph is the fallen state of the world today. Men refusing to lead and women refusing to follow. Equality does not exist and it never will.

As a general rule: Men follow reason and logic. Women follow emotion. When emotion leads, the family fails. When emotion gets on a high horse , it poisons everyone around them.

This last paragraph of yours has been man's false, made up generalization and rationalization for "ruling" his wife. "Yes daddy!" How about a husband who gives equal weight to his wife's opinion, the same he gives to his own.

equal weight given to both emotion (fear,insecurity) and reason is like mixing in three times the amount of butter into a bread recipe. The result isn't good, yet it NEEDS some butter to be right. Any good man knows the value of the wife's input but reason must lead in a functional family.

[Mangus MacLeod]

And a few more pics of productive modern women, who seem to be able to happily balance the responsibilities of production and reproduction.

Amish Women Hauling Hay 1.jpg (82.01 KiB) Viewed 220 times

Amish Women Garden 1.JPG (39.8 KiB) Viewed 220 times

Amish Women Canning 1.jpg (110.92 KiB) Viewed 220 times

[ori]

The backstory to this though involves a group of old friends who are just regular guys.

None of us married any type of high maintenance Barbie girls. Our wives like us and have natural affection for us as far as I can tell. And they are all good people. And they are already game to be around some rough around the edges type people places and ideas or they wouldn’t have married any of us. None of us are doctors or dentists or real estate agents or anything like that. A couple might have made more money than doctors and such but we are all regular guys with normal wives that like us.

So one night there may have been some activities going on that are considered obligatory in our subculture aka whiskey drinking (I of course did not imbibe) and while this was going on one guy started rambling about how the commies and the feminists and the authoritarians have infiltrated the federal government and blah blah blah same old story.

To which another guy replied— dude you can’t change that because they have infiltrated the state government too. You need to worry about the state government first.

To which another guy blurted out— dude the county is just as bad. We need to do what we can on a local level cause we are getting overrun here locally. Need to worry about doing what we can on a local level before we get wrapped up in doing things on a state or federal level.

And then another guy who was pretty whiskeyed up at this point lamented ahh shoot dude even the local elites have sold us out tho. My own damn HOA will tow my car right now if I park in the wrong spot and if I paint my house the wrong shade they’ll put a lien on it.

And now this is where the real value of whiskey comes in, because the next guy chimed in and said what he wouldn’t usually have said which was— Bro I wouldn’t even be worrying about the local level even till you figure out the problem on a HOUSEHOLD level.

Then there was silence as the truth slowly dawned on all of us though only about half could admit it.

Forget government and all that. Forget getting nagged by your HOA even. The infiltration has extended into our kids rooms and master bedrooms.

Men no longer need be conquered by bombs bullets or bayonets. Bitchiness alone has done it. The enemy has enlisted our own family to nag us into a consumptive modern world owned and ran by corporate oligarchs and corrupt officials. No invasion needed.

Don’t believe me? Try and leave it. Try and leave the modern world of consumerism and comfort and corporatism. See what your wife says/does.

Who cares who makes the laws when you can’t even call half the shots in your own home?

lol, the more I read your comments, the more I like you...

[HVDC]

And a few more pics of productive modern women, who seem to be able to happily balance the responsibilities of production and reproduction.

Amish Women Hauling Hay 1.jpg
Amish Women Garden 1.JPG
Amish Women Canning 1.jpg

This is not the equality they are looking for.

Sir H

[Sarah]

If you want more production, all you can do is make it happen yourself and not feel entitled to her helping out.

Yes, thank you for so eloquently helping to make the point. You have perfectly described the modern mainstream paradigm — and dilemma.

Subject to recognized exceptions, the reality is everyone wants to consume. Nobody wants to produce or reproduce. That is the status of our current mainstream societal situation.

The problem is unrealistic expectations. Just because our pioneer ancestors lived a certain way, doesn't mean it was ideal as there were negative consequences as a result of the harsh lives they lived. I don't know how many stories I've heard of wives being worked to death on a farmstead, with husband away somewhere, where some or everyone gets sick and someone dies, or children wander into a well or ditch and die because their mother can't spend time with her children. She's too busy milking the cow making cheese, or the million other work jobs that need to be done. So I think expecting a young plural wife to be a workhorse while she is trying to take care of her children is completely unrealistic. I have a husband who had high expectations for me when we were young. When I had young children, it was all I could do just to figure out dinner and keep everyone fed. I could have left my children in front of the TV all day to garden or raise animals, but then my children would have suffered.

Obviously, you have never spent any time around Anabaptist families, which are monogamous, but that is beside the point: Their women know how to produce and reproduce, and are happy doing it.

Since a picture is worth a thousand words, I’ll share some.

Jr Martha Wool Handling 1.5 cropped.JPG

Troyer Kids Wool Bales.JPG

Troyer Family 4.7 cropped.JPG

Yeah, a picture is worth a thousand words. The husband is home working along side his wife, as an equal partner. The children aren't in the first picture with them, but we assume they are around helping and not getting into dangerous situations. Notice there are no babies or really small children around.

[FrankOne]

Thanks for all the major, MAJOR contributions to this thread, especially when it comes to the issue of male LEADERSHIP.

But where I had really hoped the discussion might go for a while, and there might be some useful discussion about the whole concept of legitimate female PRODUCTIVE contributions to the whole equation, and I don’t necessarily mean money.

So, in other words, a pattern that we see in the modern world and modern Mormondom is that the husband is the sole producer, and the wife is the big consumer. She often wants to spend it as fast (or faster) than he can produce it. Or maybe she does have a job. But she will typically still want to spend it faster than they can both produce it.

By nature, she is a consumer, and she believes that is her right, and even if, unlike Sarah, arguing with men isn’t a game to her, spending money is. And that’s okay. Spending money can be fun. But there’s got to be some balance between consumption and production. Just like this country, if you consume more than you produce, you’re going to be in trouble. But how many women, and especially modern Mormon women, can see this? How many modern Mormon women have any legitimate productive interests and capacity? In the Church, I can’t think of hardly any positive role models, and particularly those who have managed to balance both productive and reproductive interests and capacity. Most high power career women in the Church have not more than two children at most. And even if they do end up producing something, do they consume even more.

In the modern lexicon of art, media and reality, perhaps the best example I can think of the hero woman role model that I am talking about is Demelza on Poldark. In my view, Demelza is the quintessential hero woman in any age or time. She is Eve — a true help mate, and still a net producer rather than a net consumer.

But a different kind of women have taken over the modern, developed world. Female nature-based nurture, including its focus on consumption orientation, now controls almost everything — our governments, our policies, our economies, our churches, the media — virtually everything. At the macro level, they completely control modern culture and society, and at the micro, individual level they have our testicles and at least half of everything we own locked up in their purses.

Am I wrong?

Sarah, here’s your real chance to move beyond sex and defend the female case for neutering males and dominating the modern world. Talk about “We have learned from said experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all . . . .” While that may be true, who is it really that is exercising dominion in the modern world? Really?

Thoughts?

Women lacking guidance.



Fall prey to their own thoughts.

Start believing their own Press Releases.

And thus become prey.


Sir H

I clipped it down to make emphasis. Well said. A book could be written on the above , but no one would read it. The average woman of today wouldn't permit it into their house. Their thoughts would prevent it. Their feelings would abhor it like the devil himself.

The fearful agitator.

the sages called this "The Shrew".

[Sarah]

My point of view on productivity and the necessity of everyone being productive, no matter the age or gender , is that a person that is not productive is miserable whether they show it or not.

A woman that feels she doesn't need to produce, because a man is directing her to do so, is the most miserable of all. She fails to understand instruction. She feels entitled. She has a Big chip on her shoulder and she becomes dysfunctional in a family and spreads her misery to everyone around her. She feels that in telling others that they don't need to follow that she is protecting them or saving them or enlightening them. In reality she is destroying the family. Look at families today and you will see the result of this type of behavior.

The man instructs a woman to be productive because it is conducive to JOY. The woman with the chip on her shoulder can't see this. She would rather stay miserable and idle than listen to any wisdom from a man.

The above paragraph is the fallen state of the world today. Men refusing to lead and women refusing to follow. Equality does not exist and it never will.

As a general rule: Men follow reason and logic. Women follow emotion. When emotion leads, the family fails. When emotion gets on a high horse , it poisons everyone around them.

This last paragraph of yours has been man's false, made up generalization and rationalization for "ruling" his wife. "Yes daddy!" How about a husband who gives equal weight to his wife's opinion, the same he gives to his own.

equal weight given to both emotion (fear,insecurity) and reason is like mixing in three times the amount of butter into a bread recipe. The result isn't good, yet it NEEDS some butter to be right. Any good man knows the value of the wife's input but reason must lead in a functional family.

You're saying that women are not logical but all emotion, and the husband is all logic, and the husband tells himself this garbage enough times it makes him think he's always right
In our marriage we have the opposite. My husband is more prone to emotional ups and downs, and I'm the more even-keel rational one.

[Sarah]

And a few more pics of productive modern women, who seem to be able to happily balance the responsibilities of production and reproduction.

Amish Women Hauling Hay 1.jpg
Amish Women Garden 1.JPG
Amish Women Canning 1.jpg

Yeah, I know lots of non-amish women who work all day in the kitchen or outside in their garden's, and some of them are even over 50! And some of them are young moms too. They do exist, quite a bit more than you think! Where are all the babies and toddlers while these women are working?

[FrankOne]

My point of view on productivity and the necessity of everyone being productive, no matter the age or gender , is that a person that is not productive is miserable whether they show it or not.

A woman that feels she doesn't need to produce, because a man is directing her to do so, is the most miserable of all. She fails to understand instruction. She feels entitled. She has a Big chip on her shoulder and she becomes dysfunctional in a family and spreads her misery to everyone around her. She feels that in telling others that they don't need to follow that she is protecting them or saving them or enlightening them. In reality she is destroying the family. Look at families today and you will see the result of this type of behavior.

The man instructs a woman to be productive because it is conducive to JOY. The woman with the chip on her shoulder can't see this. She would rather stay miserable and idle than listen to any wisdom from a man.

The above paragraph is the fallen state of the world today. Men refusing to lead and women refusing to follow. Equality does not exist and it never will.

As a general rule: Men follow reason and logic. Women follow emotion. When emotion leads, the family fails. When emotion gets on a high horse , it poisons everyone around them.

This last paragraph of yours has been man's false, made up generalization and rationalization for "ruling" his wife. "Yes daddy!" How about a husband who gives equal weight to his wife's opinion, the same he gives to his own.

equal weight given to both emotion (fear,insecurity) and reason is like mixing in three times the amount of butter into a bread recipe. The result isn't good, yet it NEEDS some butter to be right. Any good man knows the value of the wife's input but reason must lead in a functional family.

You're saying that women are not logical but all emotion, and the husband is all logic, and the husband tells himself this garbage enough times it makes him think he's always right
In our marriage we have the opposite. My husband is more prone to emotional ups and downs, and I'm the more even-keel rational one.

nope. Again it goes to all or nothing in your replies . Men use more reasoning and women are mostly emotional. I do try to word things like what I said above to not be exlusive or inclusive of everyone but you've caught one where I didn't specify. As you'll note, I also did not use the word "logical" yet you assumed that is what I meant.

I'll repeat. Reason must lead.

etymology:
reason (n.)

c. 1200, resoun, "the intellectual faculty that adopts actions to ends,"

Meaning "sanity; degree of intelligence that distinguishes men from brutes" is recorded from late 13c.; that of "that which recommends itself to enlightened intelligence, a reasonable view of a matter" is from c. 1300.
Reason

[Sarah]

When I was a young mom, I was really into preparedness - well I still am - but back then I was making homemade 100% whole wheat bread all the time from scratch, and started canning butter and meat. I did a lot of work - and still do - so hopefully all you men are impressed! All while my kids were watching TV or playing by themselves.

[Sarah]

This last paragraph of yours has been man's false, made up generalization and rationalization for "ruling" his wife. "Yes daddy!" How about a husband who gives equal weight to his wife's opinion, the same he gives to his own.

equal weight given to both emotion (fear,insecurity) and reason is like mixing in three times the amount of butter into a bread recipe. The result isn't good, yet it NEEDS some butter to be right. Any good man knows the value of the wife's input but reason must lead in a functional family.

You're saying that women are not logical but all emotion, and the husband is all logic, and the husband tells himself this garbage enough times it makes him think he's always right
In our marriage we have the opposite. My husband is more prone to emotional ups and downs, and I'm the more even-keel rational one.

nope. Again it goes to all or nothing in your replies . Men use more reasoning and women are mostly emotional. I do try to word things like what I said above to not be exlusive or inclusive of everyone but you've caught one where I didn't specify. As you'll note, I also did not use the word "logical" yet you assumed that is what I meant.

I'll repeat. Reason must lead.

etymology:
reason (n.)

c. 1200, resoun, "the intellectual faculty that adopts actions to ends,"

Meaning "sanity; degree of intelligence that distinguishes men from brutes" is recorded from late 13c.; that of "that which recommends itself to enlightened intelligence, a reasonable view of a matter" is from c. 1300.
Reason

I think you're wrong about men using mostly reason and women using mostly emotion. If there's any reasoning with men, you can be sure there's some emotion behind it, and if there's any emotion with women, you can bet ya she is reasoning, and that's what's causing the emotion. Like I said, you're just repeating some lie to make you feel entitled to make all the decisions.

[HVDC]

When I was a young mom, I was really into preparedness - well I still am - but back then I was making homemade 100% whole wheat bread all the time from scratch, and started canning butter and meat. I did a lot of work - and still do - so hopefully all you men are impressed! All while my kids were watching TV or playing by themselves.

You're feisty Sarah.

You can be the head wife.

Finely tuned machine the family enterprise would be.

In your realm of course.



Sir H

[Mangus MacLeod]

And a few more pics of productive modern women, who seem to be able to happily balance the responsibilities of production and reproduction.

Amish Women Hauling Hay 1.jpg
Amish Women Garden 1.JPG
Amish Women Canning 1.jpg

Yeah, I know lots of non-amish women who work all day in the kitchen or outside in their garden's, and some of them are even over 50! And some of them are young moms too. They do exist, quite a bit more than you think! Where are all the babies and toddlers while these women are working?

Awesome! Glad to hear that you know “lots” of ‘em. Please share pics.

[Sarah]

And a few more pics of productive modern women, who seem to be able to happily balance the responsibilities of production and reproduction.

Amish Women Hauling Hay 1.jpg
Amish Women Garden 1.JPG
Amish Women Canning 1.jpg

Yeah, I know lots of non-amish women who work all day in the kitchen or outside in their garden's, and some of them are even over 50! And some of them are young moms too. They do exist, quite a bit more than you think! Where are all the babies and toddlers while these women are working?

Awesome! Glad to hear that you know “lots” of ‘em. Please share pics.

Well, my MIL is one of them. I don't think she'd like me posting her picture online