Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

[Sarah]

That's cool that you used to be an attorney and judge. I joke with my husband that I must have been an attorney in my last life.

In regards to your DIL, sounds like she is avoiding anything hard and taking advantage of your husband. This doesn't mean that most women are like this, or that it is just a women problem. We are raising kids with the easy life who want to keep it that way.
If I were your son I would talk to her and explain calmly and lovingly that he'd like some boundaries on what she is spending on, or a budget they can agree on, and explain to her that if she is going to not get a job or do any housework, then he will get to decide how the money is spent. If for example she is buying food and preparing it somewhat, then that is some work, so the husband can provide money for her to spend on food and other things they both use. He needs to set boundaries with her and counsel with her on her spending and habits. Maybe he wants more healthy food and that is going to mean less money for her to spend on herself. So the boundary for her needs to be restricting the money he's giving her. Husbands need to not be afraid of upsetting their wife, and her potential back-lash, if she's acting like a spoiled child. But he can't act entitled to sex or he'd be acting the same way as she was, just expecting to be taken care of sexually, in the same way she's expecting to be taken care of physically.

I’m not super comfortable talking about these type of subjects but I would just say that it is my personal opinion and understanding that:

Sex should not be a transactional thing in a marriage. Even just framing it like that will sink you.

A sexual relationship inside marriage is just a given. It’s not the wife doing the husband a favor. It’s not something the husband buys with good behavior. It just is a given. A marriage isn’t a marriage without it. Literally.

That is where you keep going off the rails. Turning sex into something normal and good and special— into something transactional.

If you as a woman are exchanging sex for labor/chores/help/money/whatever— then that degrades you. You have now gone from being a loving wife to being a ______, well you fill in the blank with the word you use to describe women who trade sex for something of value.

Where I’m from women like that are usually called hookers I guess.

I don't see how you think I'm making sex transactional. I simply said that he shouldn't feel entitled to sex if he doesn't want his wife to feel entitled to all his labor and all the fruits of his labor. How is avoiding an attitude of entitlement transactional? There always needs to be balance and unselfishness to balance out selfishness. Frequent one-sided sex for him where she's just trying to be generous, but doesn't get a lot out of it emotionally, and feels worse physically, would be like a wife who took her husband's pay check and spent it all on herself. Should that just be expected and a no brainer as well?

Yeah that is transactional.

Plus your whole framing is off. You are framing it as tit for tat. (Literally? )

Rather than framing husband and wife as a team who are ONE, you are framing it as “well if you expect x then I expect y”

Your whole frame of reference and way of looking at relationships sets you up for conflict and pettiness and competition.

It is my understanding that a union of husband and wife is a team relationship. Not a give and take relationship.

Do you not see the difference?

In your model, each person is contributing something and then expecting something in return. That naturally leads to trying to get the best deal for your contribution. You naturally want to pay less and get more.

The team model of thinking is the opposite. Have you ever played on a sports team? Each person is trying to contribute as much as they possibly can regardless of what the other person is contributing. There is a common goal that unites you. If you work and get a bunch more rebounds than your teammate does— that’s great. You both benefit. Nothing is transactional. And you are happy to play as hard as you can.

Your whole framing of the way relationships work is worldly. Eye for an eye. Goes back to Babylon.

The way I understand it— all that type of thing is bad very bad long term. You need to be on a team together or if you dont understand sports then you could think of singing parts in a duet. There is no competition and no transaction, it is harmonious and complimentary and symbiotic.

It’s a totally different way of framing it from how you are seeing it.

You are seeing it through the normal academic style lens which always pits friend against neighbor and kids against parents and wives against husbands.

Because that whole way of looking at things naturally implies conflict.

If I were in a marriage like that I wouldn’t last one month.

If you think that's what I'm saying then you aren't reading my words carefully enough. I argued for no expectations, but instead setting reasonable boundaries on giving to someone. No different than setting boundaries with children. Do you think a husband should expect his wife to have sex with him every time he wants it?

[hyloglyph]

I’m not super comfortable talking about these type of subjects but I would just say that it is my personal opinion and understanding that:

Sex should not be a transactional thing in a marriage. Even just framing it like that will sink you.

A sexual relationship inside marriage is just a given. It’s not the wife doing the husband a favor. It’s not something the husband buys with good behavior. It just is a given. A marriage isn’t a marriage without it. Literally.

That is where you keep going off the rails. Turning sex into something normal and good and special— into something transactional.

If you as a woman are exchanging sex for labor/chores/help/money/whatever— then that degrades you. You have now gone from being a loving wife to being a ______, well you fill in the blank with the word you use to describe women who trade sex for something of value.

Where I’m from women like that are usually called hookers I guess.

I don't see how you think I'm making sex transactional. I simply said that he shouldn't feel entitled to sex if he doesn't want his wife to feel entitled to all his labor and all the fruits of his labor. How is avoiding an attitude of entitlement transactional? There always needs to be balance and unselfishness to balance out selfishness. Frequent one-sided sex for him where she's just trying to be generous, but doesn't get a lot out of it emotionally, and feels worse physically, would be like a wife who took her husband's pay check and spent it all on herself. Should that just be expected and a no brainer as well?

Yeah that is transactional.

Plus your whole framing is off. You are framing it as tit for tat. (Literally? )

Rather than framing husband and wife as a team who are ONE, you are framing it as “well if you expect x then I expect y”

Your whole frame of reference and way of looking at relationships sets you up for conflict and pettiness and competition.

It is my understanding that a union of husband and wife is a team relationship. Not a give and take relationship.

Do you not see the difference?

In your model, each person is contributing something and then expecting something in return. That naturally leads to trying to get the best deal for your contribution. You naturally want to pay less and get more.

The team model of thinking is the opposite. Have you ever played on a sports team? Each person is trying to contribute as much as they possibly can regardless of what the other person is contributing. There is a common goal that unites you. If you work and get a bunch more rebounds than your teammate does— that’s great. You both benefit. Nothing is transactional. And you are happy to play as hard as you can.

Your whole framing of the way relationships work is worldly. Eye for an eye. Goes back to Babylon.

The way I understand it— all that type of thing is bad very bad long term. You need to be on a team together or if you dont understand sports then you could think of singing parts in a duet. There is no competition and no transaction, it is harmonious and complimentary and symbiotic.

It’s a totally different way of framing it from how you are seeing it.

You are seeing it through the normal academic style lens which always pits friend against neighbor and kids against parents and wives against husbands.

Because that whole way of looking at things naturally implies conflict.

If I were in a marriage like that I wouldn’t last one month.

If you think that's what I'm saying then you aren't reading my words carefully enough. I argued for no expectations, but instead setting reasonable boundaries on giving to someone. No different than setting boundaries with children. Do you think a husband should expect his wife to have sex with him every time he wants it?

I’m leaving the sex stuff alone now haha.

I’ll just leave it at— The type of relationship I am familiar with is one where the wife is happy to have a roll in the hay. Maybe not every night or all the time but she is consistently happy to do it and so is the husband and so your whole way of looking at things is foreign to me and seems dysfunctional.

In my world, the man would be just as likely to turn it down as the woman would and in both cases that wouldn’t be a big deal cause there is always tomorrow night.

Your whole way of looking at it is foreign. At least to me and probably to a lot of people I know.

[Shawn Henry]

they can go on & on & on… about it and never get tired!

The women of polygamy appreciate this in their husbands.

[Mangus MacLeod]

I joke with my husband that I must have been an attorney in my last life.

On one hand, I can’t say that I’m necessarily surprised. On the other hand, especially in that regard, I can’t say that I envy your husband — or my wife for that matter. It is a whole lot easier to be an attorney than to be married to one. My cousin Tmac was fortunate enough to figure that out 20 years before I did.

And one of the reasons I say this is based on a presentation I once heard at a high-falutin’ legal function, where the title of the key-note address was: “The crisis of over-confidence in the legal profession.” It made a bigger and more lasting impression on me than anything else I have seen or heard in over 30 years of experience in the legal system.

This is a completely hopeless discussion if it is nothing more than an endless debate amongst lawyers and wannabe lawyers, all of whom may suffer from that malady.

Heaven help us.

Yes, hopeless, but isn't it fun? For me it's like playing a sport.

Exactly. For some of us the subject matter is based on real life, with real consequences. For you it's just a game, which makes you nothing more than a troll. That does make sense. Only reinforces my view of gamers and trolls. For that reason, to help avoid the needless waste of time, it's really tempting to just go ahead and exercise the block option. Unfortunately, being the wannabe lawyer that you are, you seem to be just about the only female really game enough to share many thoughts here -- as if they represent anything other than your own unique, personal views.

But, we better keep things on good terms for the deeper and heavier-hitting Sex discussion still to come -- which based on things you have said, I think your experiences and opinions may be highly relevant to.

[FrankOne]

After a short weekend reprieve in this discussion, before circling back to additional self-evident truths and realities, including a real candid and even harder-hitting discussion about sex later (probably in a few days), I want to take the opportunity to really stir the pot, shift gears, and take this discussion in a completely different direction (from the age-old sex-themed discussion) about other self-evident truths and realities.

For these new directions I seriously thought about changing horses and starting a completely new thread, but ultimately decided to stick with this same horse, and this thread.

The context for this part of the discussion actually has little to do with plural marriage. It had nothing to do with sex and reproduction. It had nothing to do with the young women referenced in the OP. It focuses on the existing, middle-aged wife referenced in Tmac’s example.

According to this hypothetical example, this woman is now beyond her reproductive life expectancy and no longer has any reproductive capacity. That is a natural reality. I get it. Whether she is nonetheless willing to provide the glue that can hold the relationship together or not is a discussion for another day.

The issue for this part of the discussion focuses exclusively on productive, rather than reproductive issues.

Previous thoughts and statements on this subject drew a few comments, but there has never been a full-fledged discussion.

To put this discussion in further context, I am going to draw on a discussion with one of my fundamentalist acquaintances, and it goes back to one of my earlier comments about a younger woman/sister wife should be willing to take a productive role in helping to tend a large garden, put-up food, etc., etc.

In my discussion with this friend, he said that in addition to reproductive capacity, productive willingness and capability is also a huge issue and concern, because if more mature, entitled wives in mainstream modern culture have reached a point that they feel zero productive obligation, and they expect their husbands to single-handedly provide, protect and slay dragons for them, while they are not willing to offer anything — including glue — to the equation, then why wouldn’t a man start also factoring all of that into the equation, and also start to ask himself how he might surround himself with more productive people — especially in light of the direction this world is clearly headed?

Afterall, the the self-evident reality is that people are either assets or liabilities, net producers and reproducers, or net consumers. In an Agrarian society, children are views as a blessing and an asset. But in the modern, technocratic world they are viewed as liabilities. What about women who likewise refuse to pull their own weight in any way?

This hits fairly close to home with me, because as a retired attorney, and former judge, I have seen just about everything. In addition, I have a 30 year-old daughter in law who has reproduced no children, and does not seem inclined to. She likewise does not work, or “produce” anything else, including any cooking, cleaning, or help around the house. But she does keep herself busy chasing her consumptive pursuits. She is a great burden on my son, who is solely responsible to support and provide for all this.

My attitude is: Either produce, reproduce, or do both, but please, do something useful.

As the world continues to move rapidly in the direction it is going, I think this is a huge issue — yet wives have their husbands’ testicles and at least half of everything they own locked up in their purses.

Thoughts?

Sounds like a modern issue.

BUT. Maybe it isn’t.

There is a very old and very ancient tradition that ties in to this school of thought.


This is something that someone once wrote:


“It is at the very foundation of all Abrahamic religions. It’s at the base of many other ancient holy traditions too.

It predates the flood.

It’s so universal that it stretches back almost into another reality.

It is a common idea that is shared by almost all faiths that:

In the beginning, when man first became conscious and self aware— right when he first started to grapple with the heavy concepts of Right and Wrong, before that having been innocent and childlike— it is said that right at that very moment when his eyes were opened and the realities of life crashed onto him— the story goes that the very first thought had by the very first man was something like “oh sh¡t my wife has got us into a bad situation”

Traditionally, that is believed to be the very first conscious thought.

And all religions are based on this— the man and woman resolving to work together to make things right between themselves and their Creator.

And so,

Should you find yourselves overleveraged, paying a mortgage and bills and running against the wind just to be able to live and raise a family in a spot where your water, food, power, and all necessities are dispensed by large government agencies and large faceless corporations, and your wives and kids friends and neighbors and teachers and the whole culture are all heading down a consumptive and unrealistic path— and you are only in this position because you were young and dumb and fairly innocent as far as wisdom goes and just went along with the type of thing has been considered normal and respectable— don’t worry. All is not lost. You just have to man up and lead your family into a safer and more wholesome situation. It’s a tale as old as time. It is the man’s duty to provide and protect and receive inspiration from the creator and to make sure that his family is living in a way where the blessings of heaven can be enjoyed. And then it’s the wife’s gift to be able to make the situation that the husband puts the family into a beautiful thing.

But in most cases, if you have been living in a modern way for a while, then the first obstacle you encounter will be a big nasty clash with your own wife. But don’t worry! That clash is not unrighteous. It is normal. Remember Lehi. Remember Adam. Remember Abraham and Lot. You aren’t supposed to give your wife everything she wants. It is okay to disagree with her. It is okay to be firm minded in some things. Especially things that pertain to your familys physical and spiritual health. Your wife might put up a fight about it for a while, something about standard of living and comforts and etc but eventually she will come around and will respect you for manning up. She won’t leave you, especially if you have kids together. In the end she will love you for doing it and your kids and posterity will respect it.

Remember our ancestors, filled with faith and courage loaded their loved ones onto ships and crossed oceans knowing that nothing but untamed wilderness awaited them on the distant shore. And then a few generations later their posterity did the same thing again except their paths lead them across vast plains with nothing but untamed wilderness waiting for them on the other side. Their blood is still in us. We have it much more comfortable than them. It will be easy for us to get out of the cycle of worldly consumption. Just need to find a few MEN willing to gamble on Providence.

Almost every single Christian marriage and family I know of is in this type of unholy situation to one degree or another. But it’s okay! There is hope.

The oldest idea in the world is to wake up and realize that you are in a tight spot because female sensibilities weren’t fully aware of all the devils cunning snares but there is time and there are ways to sort everything out. Wives can’t be expected to make all the decisions and have a good outcome. They need input and leadership from their husbands! Such is the lot of man and has been since the beginning.“


I do not know if that is relevant or not but I think it is.

I read your post above, and at first, I didn't catch that it was a quote. I was thinking..."This is brilliant writing". Since I thought that you wrote it, I was going to ask if you had ever read "The way of the Superior Man, A Man's guide to mastering the challenges of work, women, and sexual desire " because the style and level of comprehension is similar. Anyone interested in a very deep treatise on how to live a superior life, I highly recommend it. You may find yourself yelling at the book ...NO WAY! If you can keep reading anyway, you will find priceless pearls of wisdom. There are a few keys in that book that are hinted at by a few writers, but this guy gives workable details. They could be called "hidden higher teachings".

You'll be tempted to put the book down due to things which you may not like. If you keep reading, I guarantee that you'll find astonishing truths that you've never considered before.

If you're an average dude, you won't like this book.

A few of the chapters in regards to women:

"Women are not liars" . "What she wants is not what she says". "Her complaint is content free". "Know what is important in your woman". "Don't suggest that your woman fixes her own emotional problem". "She really doesn't want to be number one".


you said:
"This is something that someone once wrote:"

hm

I've used a similar sentence myself.

“Men! Don’t cower in front of your wives any longer. They are in a daze dazzled by big government, evil corporations, and the traditions of their culture. Wake them up! Shake them and convert them to the side of TRADITIONAL American values! They will thank you for it. Be leaders. That’s what you are for. Don’t push your duty onto your wives! They shouldn’t be bearing the burden of making all the decisions. Even if they think they should— they shouldn’t. It’s not right. That is too much to ask of them. Look at your current situations honestly. How much of your present circumstances are a result of your wife’s preferences? 90%? 95%? If it were totally up to you what would change?

It is true, that to try and change things now will cause conflict. It may be painful. It may suck. There may be knock down drag out fighting. But you have time and life ahead of you. Fight it out while you can! She will come around. Everything will get resolved in the end.

Or don’t. Don’t fight. Don’t fight and just waste away the rest of your life… and die as a woman with a weiner. But when that last day comes… will you not want to trade back all those days? Will you not want to trade back all those days spent being a sissy for just one chance ONE CHANCE to go back to when your kids were young and STAND UP as a father and a man!?”



Yeah. Not a very famous guy. But he wrote that and a lot of other things. His theory is basically that chapter in Isaiah that was also quoted by nephi is now upon us.

what's interesting about that quote above is that it's true ..... and it's false at the same time. The general realization for the typical modern man is true, he has been effectively castrated, yet the solution given is worse than ineffective. yet...there is a solution and it's already been presented two posts up by hyloglyph. When a man understands , he can teach. The most difficult part of this process of understanding a woman and then teaching her, is that the method that you are employing cannot be shared with her for it to remain effective. Clear logic fails.

"Fighting" as instructed above would work about as well putting out a fire with gasoline and the result in this day and age would just mean that she goes off with half of everything you own as well as destroy the family.

I tried to search out that quote, but couldn't find it. Do you have a reference?
Thanks.

[FrankOne]

I joke with my husband that I must have been an attorney in my last life.

On one hand, I can’t say that I’m necessarily surprised. On the other hand, especially in that regard, I can’t say that I envy your husband — or my wife for that matter. It is a whole lot easier to be an attorney than to be married to one. My cousin Tmac was fortunate enough to figure that out 20 years before I did.

And one of the reasons I say this is based on a presentation I once heard at a high-falutin’ legal function, where the title of the key-note address was: “The crisis of over-confidence in the legal profession.” It made a bigger and more lasting impression on me than anything else I have seen or heard in over 30 years of experience in the legal system.

This is a completely hopeless discussion if it is nothing more than an endless debate amongst lawyers and wannabe lawyers, all of whom may suffer from that malady.

Heaven help us.

Yes, hopeless, but isn't it fun? For me it's like playing a sport.

Entertainment is very important to some. It substitutes learning.

[hyloglyph]

Sounds like a modern issue.

BUT. Maybe it isn’t.

There is a very old and very ancient tradition that ties in to this school of thought.


This is something that someone once wrote:


“It is at the very foundation of all Abrahamic religions. It’s at the base of many other ancient holy traditions too.

It predates the flood.

It’s so universal that it stretches back almost into another reality.

It is a common idea that is shared by almost all faiths that:

In the beginning, when man first became conscious and self aware— right when he first started to grapple with the heavy concepts of Right and Wrong, before that having been innocent and childlike— it is said that right at that very moment when his eyes were opened and the realities of life crashed onto him— the story goes that the very first thought had by the very first man was something like “oh sh¡t my wife has got us into a bad situation”

Traditionally, that is believed to be the very first conscious thought.

And all religions are based on this— the man and woman resolving to work together to make things right between themselves and their Creator.

And so,

Should you find yourselves overleveraged, paying a mortgage and bills and running against the wind just to be able to live and raise a family in a spot where your water, food, power, and all necessities are dispensed by large government agencies and large faceless corporations, and your wives and kids friends and neighbors and teachers and the whole culture are all heading down a consumptive and unrealistic path— and you are only in this position because you were young and dumb and fairly innocent as far as wisdom goes and just went along with the type of thing has been considered normal and respectable— don’t worry. All is not lost. You just have to man up and lead your family into a safer and more wholesome situation. It’s a tale as old as time. It is the man’s duty to provide and protect and receive inspiration from the creator and to make sure that his family is living in a way where the blessings of heaven can be enjoyed. And then it’s the wife’s gift to be able to make the situation that the husband puts the family into a beautiful thing.

But in most cases, if you have been living in a modern way for a while, then the first obstacle you encounter will be a big nasty clash with your own wife. But don’t worry! That clash is not unrighteous. It is normal. Remember Lehi. Remember Adam. Remember Abraham and Lot. You aren’t supposed to give your wife everything she wants. It is okay to disagree with her. It is okay to be firm minded in some things. Especially things that pertain to your familys physical and spiritual health. Your wife might put up a fight about it for a while, something about standard of living and comforts and etc but eventually she will come around and will respect you for manning up. She won’t leave you, especially if you have kids together. In the end she will love you for doing it and your kids and posterity will respect it.

Remember our ancestors, filled with faith and courage loaded their loved ones onto ships and crossed oceans knowing that nothing but untamed wilderness awaited them on the distant shore. And then a few generations later their posterity did the same thing again except their paths lead them across vast plains with nothing but untamed wilderness waiting for them on the other side. Their blood is still in us. We have it much more comfortable than them. It will be easy for us to get out of the cycle of worldly consumption. Just need to find a few MEN willing to gamble on Providence.

Almost every single Christian marriage and family I know of is in this type of unholy situation to one degree or another. But it’s okay! There is hope.

The oldest idea in the world is to wake up and realize that you are in a tight spot because female sensibilities weren’t fully aware of all the devils cunning snares but there is time and there are ways to sort everything out. Wives can’t be expected to make all the decisions and have a good outcome. They need input and leadership from their husbands! Such is the lot of man and has been since the beginning.“


I do not know if that is relevant or not but I think it is.

I read your post above, and at first, I didn't catch that it was a quote. I was thinking..."This is brilliant writing". Since I thought that you wrote it, I was going to ask if you had ever read "The way of the Superior Man, A Man's guide to mastering the challenges of work, women, and sexual desire " because the style and level of comprehension is similar. Anyone interested in a very deep treatise on how to live a superior life, I highly recommend it. You may find yourself yelling at the book ...NO WAY! If you can keep reading anyway, you will find priceless pearls of wisdom. There are a few keys in that book that are hinted at by a few writers, but this guy gives workable details. They could be called "hidden higher teachings".

You'll be tempted to put the book down due to things which you may not like. If you keep reading, I guarantee that you'll find astonishing truths that you've never considered before.

If you're an average dude, you won't like this book.

A few of the chapters in regards to women:

"Women are not liars" . "What she wants is not what she says". "Her complaint is content free". "Know what is important in your woman". "Don't suggest that your woman fixes her own emotional problem". "She really doesn't want to be number one".


you said:
"This is something that someone once wrote:"

hm

I've used a similar sentence myself.

“Men! Don’t cower in front of your wives any longer. They are in a daze dazzled by big government, evil corporations, and the traditions of their culture. Wake them up! Shake them and convert them to the side of TRADITIONAL American values! They will thank you for it. Be leaders. That’s what you are for. Don’t push your duty onto your wives! They shouldn’t be bearing the burden of making all the decisions. Even if they think they should— they shouldn’t. It’s not right. That is too much to ask of them. Look at your current situations honestly. How much of your present circumstances are a result of your wife’s preferences? 90%? 95%? If it were totally up to you what would change?

It is true, that to try and change things now will cause conflict. It may be painful. It may suck. There may be knock down drag out fighting. But you have time and life ahead of you. Fight it out while you can! She will come around. Everything will get resolved in the end.

Or don’t. Don’t fight. Don’t fight and just waste away the rest of your life… and die as a woman with a weiner. But when that last day comes… will you not want to trade back all those days? Will you not want to trade back all those days spent being a sissy for just one chance ONE CHANCE to go back to when your kids were young and STAND UP as a father and a man!?”



Yeah. Not a very famous guy. But he wrote that and a lot of other things. His theory is basically that chapter in Isaiah that was also quoted by nephi is now upon us.

what's interesting about that quote above is that it's true ..... and it's false at the same time. The general realization for the typical modern man is true, he has been effectively castrated, yet the solution given is worse than ineffective. yet...there is a solution and it's already been presented two posts up by hyloglyph. When a man understands , he can teach. The most difficult part of this process of understanding a woman and then teaching her, is that the method that you are employing cannot be shared with her for it to remain effective. Clear logic fails.

"Fighting" as instructed above would work about as well putting out a fire with gasoline and the result in this day and age would just mean that she goes off with half of everything you own as well as destroy the family.

I tried to search out that quote, but couldn't find it. Do you have a reference?
Thanks.

No reference. It is a private person who wrote this to his friends who were all in similar situations.

Funny enough I did it myself and it worked. Fought it out.

Wife didn’t leave.

Took about 2 years though. Many layers had to get peeled back. Once we thought everything was good we would discover a whole new issue.

None of this was in like therapy or anything. Just good old fashioned husband and wife fighting.

Your mileage may vary though. In my case I knew that my wife loved me very much and I love her very much and we are determined to raise our kids together.

So had I tried this in a situation where the wife was already halfway out the door yeah it would have blown up.

I’m such an idiot that I just tried it on a perfectly good and peaceful relationship. Took two years but eventually resolved and I don’t want to jinx myself but I am days away from basically the type of situation that I have been dreaming about since I was a kid. The type of situation that my dad had been dreaming about since he was a kid actually.

So actually it took 2 generations and 2 full years of fighting it out to get there but now I’m in the home stretch.

[FrankOne]

I read your post above, and at first, I didn't catch that it was a quote. I was thinking..."This is brilliant writing". Since I thought that you wrote it, I was going to ask if you had ever read "The way of the Superior Man, A Man's guide to mastering the challenges of work, women, and sexual desire " because the style and level of comprehension is similar. Anyone interested in a very deep treatise on how to live a superior life, I highly recommend it. You may find yourself yelling at the book ...NO WAY! If you can keep reading anyway, you will find priceless pearls of wisdom. There are a few keys in that book that are hinted at by a few writers, but this guy gives workable details. They could be called "hidden higher teachings".

You'll be tempted to put the book down due to things which you may not like. If you keep reading, I guarantee that you'll find astonishing truths that you've never considered before.

If you're an average dude, you won't like this book.

A few of the chapters in regards to women:

"Women are not liars" . "What she wants is not what she says". "Her complaint is content free". "Know what is important in your woman". "Don't suggest that your woman fixes her own emotional problem". "She really doesn't want to be number one".


you said:
"This is something that someone once wrote:"

hm

I've used a similar sentence myself.

“Men! Don’t cower in front of your wives any longer. They are in a daze dazzled by big government, evil corporations, and the traditions of their culture. Wake them up! Shake them and convert them to the side of TRADITIONAL American values! They will thank you for it. Be leaders. That’s what you are for. Don’t push your duty onto your wives! They shouldn’t be bearing the burden of making all the decisions. Even if they think they should— they shouldn’t. It’s not right. That is too much to ask of them. Look at your current situations honestly. How much of your present circumstances are a result of your wife’s preferences? 90%? 95%? If it were totally up to you what would change?

It is true, that to try and change things now will cause conflict. It may be painful. It may suck. There may be knock down drag out fighting. But you have time and life ahead of you. Fight it out while you can! She will come around. Everything will get resolved in the end.

Or don’t. Don’t fight. Don’t fight and just waste away the rest of your life… and die as a woman with a weiner. But when that last day comes… will you not want to trade back all those days? Will you not want to trade back all those days spent being a sissy for just one chance ONE CHANCE to go back to when your kids were young and STAND UP as a father and a man!?”



Yeah. Not a very famous guy. But he wrote that and a lot of other things. His theory is basically that chapter in Isaiah that was also quoted by nephi is now upon us.

what's interesting about that quote above is that it's true ..... and it's false at the same time. The general realization for the typical modern man is true, he has been effectively castrated, yet the solution given is worse than ineffective. yet...there is a solution and it's already been presented two posts up by hyloglyph. When a man understands , he can teach. The most difficult part of this process of understanding a woman and then teaching her, is that the method that you are employing cannot be shared with her for it to remain effective. Clear logic fails.

"Fighting" as instructed above would work about as well putting out a fire with gasoline and the result in this day and age would just mean that she goes off with half of everything you own as well as destroy the family.

I tried to search out that quote, but couldn't find it. Do you have a reference?
Thanks.

No reference. It is a private person who wrote this to his friends who were all in similar situations.

Funny enough I did it myself and it worked. Fought it out.

Wife didn’t leave.

Took about 2 years though. Many layers had to get peeled back. Once we thought everything was good we would discover a whole new issue.

None of this was in like therapy or anything. Just good old fashioned husband and wife fighting.

Your mileage may vary though. In my case I knew that my wife loved me very much and I love her very much and we are determined to raise our kids together.

So had I tried this in a situation where the wife was already halfway out the door yeah it would have blown up.

I’m such an idiot that I just tried it on a perfectly good and peaceful relationship. Took two years but eventually resolved and I don’t want to jinx myself but I am days away from basically the type of situation that I have been dreaming about since I was a kid. The type of situation that my dad had been dreaming about since he was a kid actually.

So actually it took 2 generations and 2 full years of fighting it out to get there but now I’m in the home stretch.

wow. I stand corrected and congratulations! seriously. I've never seen that done without explosive results. My wife and I began working out this subject from the time we were married. For some reason, I began to see it occurring very early in our marriage , so the adjustments were continuous (and still are). I mistakenly thought that it would be impossible to correct a long term , solidified problem as we are discussing using a direct approach. You must have a deep bond with your wife.. wow.

The other method that I was describing is a less confrontational approach. It is to employ a full understanding of a woman's psyche and use complex psychological influence to right the relationship. It requires an immense amount of patience and a maximum amount of understanding. The key to it is being unreactive. There is no fight if you don't fight. A woman can't understand it when you don't get angry so....they begin to listen. Being firm , yet unreactive.

Just one more note that comes to mind since you said that you are "in the home stretch".

From my experience:

The process of "adjustments" never ends, so be ready for that. It's never completely 100% "solved". Emotion, fear, and insecurity are incurable. These three will forever throw out wildcards. At a certain point, you might just smile when those three pop up their heads. Like watching a child sneak a cookie, its cute....but of course, needs adjustment.

[Sarah]

I don't see how you think I'm making sex transactional. I simply said that he shouldn't feel entitled to sex if he doesn't want his wife to feel entitled to all his labor and all the fruits of his labor. How is avoiding an attitude of entitlement transactional? There always needs to be balance and unselfishness to balance out selfishness. Frequent one-sided sex for him where she's just trying to be generous, but doesn't get a lot out of it emotionally, and feels worse physically, would be like a wife who took her husband's pay check and spent it all on herself. Should that just be expected and a no brainer as well?

Yeah that is transactional.

Plus your whole framing is off. You are framing it as tit for tat. (Literally? )

Rather than framing husband and wife as a team who are ONE, you are framing it as “well if you expect x then I expect y”

Your whole frame of reference and way of looking at relationships sets you up for conflict and pettiness and competition.

It is my understanding that a union of husband and wife is a team relationship. Not a give and take relationship.

Do you not see the difference?

In your model, each person is contributing something and then expecting something in return. That naturally leads to trying to get the best deal for your contribution. You naturally want to pay less and get more.

The team model of thinking is the opposite. Have you ever played on a sports team? Each person is trying to contribute as much as they possibly can regardless of what the other person is contributing. There is a common goal that unites you. If you work and get a bunch more rebounds than your teammate does— that’s great. You both benefit. Nothing is transactional. And you are happy to play as hard as you can.

Your whole framing of the way relationships work is worldly. Eye for an eye. Goes back to Babylon.

The way I understand it— all that type of thing is bad very bad long term. You need to be on a team together or if you dont understand sports then you could think of singing parts in a duet. There is no competition and no transaction, it is harmonious and complimentary and symbiotic.

It’s a totally different way of framing it from how you are seeing it.

You are seeing it through the normal academic style lens which always pits friend against neighbor and kids against parents and wives against husbands.

Because that whole way of looking at things naturally implies conflict.

If I were in a marriage like that I wouldn’t last one month.

If you think that's what I'm saying then you aren't reading my words carefully enough. I argued for no expectations, but instead setting reasonable boundaries on giving to someone. No different than setting boundaries with children. Do you think a husband should expect his wife to have sex with him every time he wants it?

I’m leaving the sex stuff alone now haha.

I’ll just leave it at— The type of relationship I am familiar with is one where the wife is happy to have a roll in the hay. Maybe not every night or all the time but she is consistently happy to do it and so is the husband and so your whole way of looking at things is foreign to me and seems dysfunctional.

In my world, the man would be just as likely to turn it down as the woman would and in both cases that wouldn’t be a big deal cause there is always tomorrow night.

Your whole way of looking at it is foreign. At least to me and probably to a lot of people I know.

Yes, I understand. I'm not trying to tell wives to never have sex with their husbands. Just saying that, like you said, one or the other should not feel obligated to have sex if they don't feel like it. But some women (and a few men too I hear) never or rarely feel like it. My advice has been to both, to figure out why one doesn't like sex, and realize it's not acceptable for one to tolerate it, and that it's not their fault. The one wanting it should not feel entitled to something at the expense of their partner. They can feel appreciation for what they are given, even it's breadcrumbs, but entitlement is a selfish attitude. It's a transactional attitude, feeling like you are owed something. I'm happy that you and I assume your wife, are both happy with your routine. Maybe both of you are not entitled and both are unselfish, generous people who put the other first in their relationship. Not everyone is like that, so I'm speaking to them.

In the case with sex. Both partners are giving and receiving at the same time, so if one partner isn't giving a gift of sex that can be appreciated and enjoyed, then it is not a gift at all. You are forcing someone to receive touching they don't want, forcing them to receive so that you can receive what you want. Your gift is really a request or a demand, not a gift.

[Sarah]

I joke with my husband that I must have been an attorney in my last life.

On one hand, I can’t say that I’m necessarily surprised. On the other hand, especially in that regard, I can’t say that I envy your husband — or my wife for that matter. It is a whole lot easier to be an attorney than to be married to one. My cousin Tmac was fortunate enough to figure that out 20 years before I did.

And one of the reasons I say this is based on a presentation I once heard at a high-falutin’ legal function, where the title of the key-note address was: “The crisis of over-confidence in the legal profession.” It made a bigger and more lasting impression on me than anything else I have seen or heard in over 30 years of experience in the legal system.

This is a completely hopeless discussion if it is nothing more than an endless debate amongst lawyers and wannabe lawyers, all of whom may suffer from that malady.

Heaven help us.

Yes, hopeless, but isn't it fun? For me it's like playing a sport.

Exactly. For some of us the subject matter is based on real life, with real consequences. For you it's just a game, which makes you nothing more than a troll. That does make sense. Only reinforces my view of gamers and trolls. For that reason, to help avoid the needless waste of time, it's really tempting to just go ahead and exercise the block option. Unfortunately, being the wannabe lawyer that you are, you seem to be just about the only female really game enough to share many thoughts here -- as if they represent anything other than your own unique, personal views.

But, we better keep things on good terms for the deeper and heavier-hitting Sex discussion still to come -- which based on things you have said, I think your experiences and opinions may be highly relevant to.

No need to make this personal friend. This subject matter is very important to me too. I care about the truth, and I care about people who have suffered because of lies. So I'm motivated to share my beliefs in all sorts of topics. My comment about how it was like playing a sport was meant to convey the feeling of it not being a personal battle, as in we can all still be friends, and the enjoyment I get from using my reasoning skills like a sportsman would enjoy using his skills.

[hyloglyph]

The backstory to this though involves a group of old friends who are just regular guys.

None of us married any type of high maintenance Barbie girls. Our wives like us and have natural affection for us as far as I can tell. And they are all good people. And they are already game to be around some rough around the edges type people places and ideas or they wouldn’t have married any of us. None of us are doctors or dentists or real estate agents or anything like that. A couple might have made more money than doctors and such but we are all regular guys with normal wives that like us.

So one night there may have been some activities going on that are considered obligatory in our subculture aka whiskey drinking (I of course did not imbibe) and while this was going on one guy started rambling about how the commies and the feminists and the authoritarians have infiltrated the federal government and blah blah blah same old story.

To which another guy replied— dude you can’t change that because they have infiltrated the state government too. You need to worry about the state government first.

To which another guy blurted out— dude the county is just as bad. We need to do what we can on a local level cause we are getting overrun here locally. Need to worry about doing what we can on a local level before we get wrapped up in doing things on a state or federal level.

And then another guy who was pretty whiskeyed up at this point lamented ahh shoot dude even the local elites have sold us out tho. My own damn HOA will tow my car right now if I park in the wrong spot and if I paint my house the wrong shade they’ll put a lien on it.

And now this is where the real value of whiskey comes in, because the next guy chimed in and said what he wouldn’t usually have said which was— Bro I wouldn’t even be worrying about the local level even till you figure out the problem on a HOUSEHOLD level.

Then there was silence as the truth slowly dawned on all of us though only about half could admit it.

Forget government and all that. Forget getting nagged by your HOA even. The infiltration has extended into our kids rooms and master bedrooms.

Men no longer need be conquered by bombs bullets or bayonets. Bitchiness alone has done it. The enemy has enlisted our own family to nag us into a consumptive modern world owned and ran by corporate oligarchs and corrupt officials. No invasion needed.

Don’t believe me? Try and leave it. Try and leave the modern world of consumerism and comfort and corporatism. See what your wife says/does.

Who cares who makes the laws when you can’t even call half the shots in your own home?

[hyloglyph]

“Men! Don’t cower in front of your wives any longer. They are in a daze dazzled by big government, evil corporations, and the traditions of their culture. Wake them up! Shake them and convert them to the side of TRADITIONAL American values! They will thank you for it. Be leaders. That’s what you are for. Don’t push your duty onto your wives! They shouldn’t be bearing the burden of making all the decisions. Even if they think they should— they shouldn’t. It’s not right. That is too much to ask of them. Look at your current situations honestly. How much of your present circumstances are a result of your wife’s preferences? 90%? 95%? If it were totally up to you what would change?

It is true, that to try and change things now will cause conflict. It may be painful. It may suck. There may be knock down drag out fighting. But you have time and life ahead of you. Fight it out while you can! She will come around. Everything will get resolved in the end.

Or don’t. Don’t fight. Don’t fight and just waste away the rest of your life… and die as a woman with a weiner. But when that last day comes… will you not want to trade back all those days? Will you not want to trade back all those days spent being a sissy for just one chance ONE CHANCE to go back to when your kids were young and STAND UP as a father and a man!?”



Yeah. Not a very famous guy. But he wrote that and a lot of other things. His theory is basically that chapter in Isaiah that was also quoted by nephi is now upon us.

what's interesting about that quote above is that it's true ..... and it's false at the same time. The general realization for the typical modern man is true, he has been effectively castrated, yet the solution given is worse than ineffective. yet...there is a solution and it's already been presented two posts up by hyloglyph. When a man understands , he can teach. The most difficult part of this process of understanding a woman and then teaching her, is that the method that you are employing cannot be shared with her for it to remain effective. Clear logic fails.

"Fighting" as instructed above would work about as well putting out a fire with gasoline and the result in this day and age would just mean that she goes off with half of everything you own as well as destroy the family.

I tried to search out that quote, but couldn't find it. Do you have a reference?
Thanks.

No reference. It is a private person who wrote this to his friends who were all in similar situations.

Funny enough I did it myself and it worked. Fought it out.

Wife didn’t leave.

Took about 2 years though. Many layers had to get peeled back. Once we thought everything was good we would discover a whole new issue.

None of this was in like therapy or anything. Just good old fashioned husband and wife fighting.

Your mileage may vary though. In my case I knew that my wife loved me very much and I love her very much and we are determined to raise our kids together.

So had I tried this in a situation where the wife was already halfway out the door yeah it would have blown up.

I’m such an idiot that I just tried it on a perfectly good and peaceful relationship. Took two years but eventually resolved and I don’t want to jinx myself but I am days away from basically the type of situation that I have been dreaming about since I was a kid. The type of situation that my dad had been dreaming about since he was a kid actually.

So actually it took 2 generations and 2 full years of fighting it out to get there but now I’m in the home stretch.

wow. I stand corrected and congratulations! seriously. I've never seen that done without explosive results. My wife and I began working out this subject from the time we were married. For some reason, I began to see it occurring very early in our marriage , so the adjustments were continuous (and still are). I mistakenly thought that it would be impossible to correct a long term , solidified problem as we are discussing using a direct approach. You must have a deep bond with your wife.. wow.

The other method that I was describing is a less confrontational approach. It is to employ a full understanding of a woman's psyche and use complex psychological influence to right the relationship. It requires an immense amount of patience and a maximum amount of understanding. The key to it is being unreactive. There is no fight if you don't fight. A woman can't understand it when you don't get angry so....they begin to listen. Being firm , yet unreactive.

Just one more note that comes to mind since you said that you are "in the home stretch".

From my experience:

The process of "adjustments" never ends, so be ready for that. It's never completely 100% "solved". Emotion, fear, and insecurity are incurable. These three will forever throw out wildcards. At a certain point, you might just smile when those three pop up their heads. Like watching a child sneak a cookie, its cute....but of course, needs adjustment.

Nice! Yeah. Backstory is written in the post above.

If I have time I might respond to this and I’d like to know more about your method.

My method was very unsophisticated and might not be the best way but I am an unsophisticated person.

[harakim]

Funny how there’s people who claim to believe in plural marriage yet can’t stop complaining about how terrible plural marriage is…

The benefits of plural marriage should go to both genders, otherwise the principle is incomplete and being abused. The TEST for the husband who has this commandment or privilege, is to see if he will awaken to understand what he can give to his wives and his brethren after he has been GIVEN a gift from his wife or the Lord. In order for him to receive a gift correctly, he needs to give something in return.

Have you experienced unconditional love? Giving a gift doesn't mean you demand to receive something in return. Love is not transactional.

[Mangus MacLeod]

Thanks for all the major, MAJOR contributions to this thread, especially when it comes to the issue of male LEADERSHIP.

But where I had really hoped the discussion might go for a while, and there might be some useful discussion about the whole concept of legitimate female PRODUCTIVE contributions to the whole equation, and I don’t necessarily mean money. There are lots of ways women can make major productive contributions to a family that have genuine economic implications, but do not involve money per se. Simple frugality and resourcefulness can have major economic implications at the family level.

But, a familiar pattern that we see in the modern world and modern Mormondom is that the husband is the sole or primary producer and provider, and the wife is the big consumer. She often wants to spend it as fast (or faster) than he can produce it. Or maybe she does have a job. But she will typically still want to spend it faster than they can both produce it. The main reason most Mormon women want to have a job is so that they can have a bigger, fancier house, nicer clothes, more hair, a nicer car, bigger boobs, and at the very least try to do a better job of keeping up with the Joneses.

By nature, she is a consumer, and she believes that is her right, and even if, unlike Sarah, arguing with men isn’t a game to her, spending money is. And that’s okay. Spending money can be fun. But there’s got to be some balance between consumption and production. Just like this country, if you consume more than you produce, you’re going to be in trouble. But how many women, and especially modern Mormon women, can see this? How many modern Mormon women have any legitimate productive interests and capacity? In the Church, I can’t think of hardly any positive role models, and particularly those who have managed to balance both productive and reproductive interests and capacity. Most high power career women in the Church have not more than two children at most. And even if they do end up producing something, do they consume even more.

In the modern lexicon of art, media, government, politics and reality, perhaps the best example I can think of the hero woman role model that I am talking about comes from art -- Demelza in Poldark. In my view, Demelza is the quintessential hero woman in any age or time. She is Eve — a true help mate, and still a net producer rather than a net consumer. Ross Poldark is also a true male hero -- and a polygamist. The show clearly portrays the endless tug of war between the male nature and the female nurture -- although that hadn't really occurred to me until just now.

But a different kind of woman and her influence, have completely taken over the modern, developed world. Female nature-based nurture, including its focus on control and consumption orientation, now dominates, controls and has dominion over almost everything in our modern developed world — our governments, our policies, our economies, our churches, the media — virtually everything. At the macro level, they completely control modern culture and society, and at the micro, individual level they have our testicles and at least half of everything we own locked up in their purses.

Am I wrong?

Sarah, here’s your real chance to move beyond sex and defend the female case for neutering males and dominating the modern world. Talk about “We have learned from said experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all . . . .” While that may be true, who is it really that is exercising dominion in the modern world? Really?

Thoughts?

Poldark Delmeza 1.jpg (82.59 KiB) Viewed 272 times

[HVDC]

Thanks for all the major, MAJOR contributions to this thread, especially when it comes to the issue of male LEADERSHIP.

But where I had really hoped the discussion might go for a while, and there might be some useful discussion about the whole concept of legitimate female PRODUCTIVE contributions to the whole equation, and I don’t necessarily mean money.

So, in other words, a pattern that we see in the modern world and modern Mormondom is that the husband is the sole producer, and the wife is the big consumer. She often wants to spend it as fast (or faster) than he can produce it. Or maybe she does have a job. But she will typically still want to spend it faster than they can both produce it.

By nature, she is a consumer, and she believes that is her right, and even if, unlike Sarah, arguing with men isn’t a game to her, spending money is. And that’s okay. Spending money can be fun. But there’s got to be some balance between consumption and production. Just like this country, if you consume more than you produce, you’re going to be in trouble. But how many women, and especially modern Mormon women, can see this? How many modern Mormon women have any legitimate productive interests and capacity? In the Church, I can’t think of hardly any positive role models, and particularly those who have managed to balance both productive and reproductive interests and capacity. Most high power career women in the Church have not more than two children at most. And even if they do end up producing something, do they consume even more.

In the modern lexicon of art, media and reality, perhaps the best example I can think of the hero woman role model that I am talking about is Demelza on Poldark. In my view, Demelza is the quintessential hero woman in any age or time. She is Eve — a true help mate, and still a net producer rather than a net consumer.

But a different kind of women have taken over the modern, developed world. Female nature-based nurture, including its focus on consumption orientation, now controls almost everything — our governments, our policies, our economies, our churches, the media — virtually everything. At the macro level, they completely control modern culture and society, and at the micro, individual level they have our testicles and at least half of everything we own locked up in their purses.

Am I wrong?

Sarah, here’s your real chance to move beyond sex and defend the female case for neutering males and dominating the modern world. Talk about “We have learned from said experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all . . . .” While that may be true, who is it really that is exercising dominion in the modern world? Really?

Thoughts?

Thoughts.

Mine are very similar to yours.

You have summed up the awfulness of our situation well.

I too believe some form of polygamy has the answer.

But right now.

Our choices are.

Become a &#%!.

Stay a man.

Marry.

Not marry.

Those are the choices presented to us.

However.

Like everything else in life.

They are false choices.

Men are rejecting marriage.

Kids.

Responsibility.

Women lacking guidance.

Protection.

Leadership.

Fall prey to their own thoughts.

Start believing their own Press Releases.

And thus become prey.

To the real predators.

Mind control is real.

What to do about it?

Break the mold.

Both parties should stop fantasizing about the perfect romantic relationship.

Make marriage a business deal.

With a contract.

I support you in your traditional role.

You support me in mine.

If they both live up to the arrangement.

Genuine feelings of mutual respect should follow.

Failure to live up to the terms.

Dissolution per the contract.

You are a lawyer.

Perhaps you could expand on how this could work.

Or why it wouldn't.

My thoughts.

Nothing revolutionary.

Just musing.

Sir H

[Jonesy]

“Men! Don’t cower in front of your wives any longer. They are in a daze dazzled by big government, evil corporations, and the traditions of their culture. Wake them up! Shake them and convert them to the side of TRADITIONAL American values! They will thank you for it. Be leaders. That’s what you are for. Don’t push your duty onto your wives! They shouldn’t be bearing the burden of making all the decisions. Even if they think they should— they shouldn’t. It’s not right. That is too much to ask of them. Look at your current situations honestly. How much of your present circumstances are a result of your wife’s preferences? 90%? 95%? If it were totally up to you what would change?

It is true, that to try and change things now will cause conflict. It may be painful. It may suck. There may be knock down drag out fighting. But you have time and life ahead of you. Fight it out while you can! She will come around. Everything will get resolved in the end.

Or don’t. Don’t fight. Don’t fight and just waste away the rest of your life… and die as a woman with a weiner. But when that last day comes… will you not want to trade back all those days? Will you not want to trade back all those days spent being a sissy for just one chance ONE CHANCE to go back to when your kids were young and STAND UP as a father and a man!?”



Yeah. Not a very famous guy. But he wrote that and a lot of other things. His theory is basically that chapter in Isaiah that was also quoted by nephi is now upon us.

what's interesting about that quote above is that it's true ..... and it's false at the same time. The general realization for the typical modern man is true, he has been effectively castrated, yet the solution given is worse than ineffective. yet...there is a solution and it's already been presented two posts up by hyloglyph. When a man understands , he can teach. The most difficult part of this process of understanding a woman and then teaching her, is that the method that you are employing cannot be shared with her for it to remain effective. Clear logic fails.

"Fighting" as instructed above would work about as well putting out a fire with gasoline and the result in this day and age would just mean that she goes off with half of everything you own as well as destroy the family.

I tried to search out that quote, but couldn't find it. Do you have a reference?
Thanks.

No reference. It is a private person who wrote this to his friends who were all in similar situations.

Funny enough I did it myself and it worked. Fought it out.

Wife didn’t leave.

Took about 2 years though. Many layers had to get peeled back. Once we thought everything was good we would discover a whole new issue.

None of this was in like therapy or anything. Just good old fashioned husband and wife fighting.

Your mileage may vary though. In my case I knew that my wife loved me very much and I love her very much and we are determined to raise our kids together.

So had I tried this in a situation where the wife was already halfway out the door yeah it would have blown up.

I’m such an idiot that I just tried it on a perfectly good and peaceful relationship. Took two years but eventually resolved and I don’t want to jinx myself but I am days away from basically the type of situation that I have been dreaming about since I was a kid. The type of situation that my dad had been dreaming about since he was a kid actually.

So actually it took 2 generations and 2 full years of fighting it out to get there but now I’m in the home stretch.

wow. I stand corrected and congratulations! seriously. I've never seen that done without explosive results. My wife and I began working out this subject from the time we were married. For some reason, I began to see it occurring very early in our marriage , so the adjustments were continuous (and still are). I mistakenly thought that it would be impossible to correct a long term , solidified problem as we are discussing using a direct approach. You must have a deep bond with your wife.. wow.

The other method that I was describing is a less confrontational approach. It is to employ a full understanding of a woman's psyche and use complex psychological influence to right the relationship. It requires an immense amount of patience and a maximum amount of understanding. The key to it is being unreactive. There is no fight if you don't fight. A woman can't understand it when you don't get angry so....they begin to listen. Being firm , yet unreactive.

Just one more note that comes to mind since you said that you are "in the home stretch".

From my experience:

The process of "adjustments" never ends, so be ready for that. It's never completely 100% "solved". Emotion, fear, and insecurity are incurable. These three will forever throw out wildcards. At a certain point, you might just smile when those three pop up their heads. Like watching a child sneak a cookie, its cute....but of course, needs adjustment.

The other method that I was describing is a less confrontational approach. It is to employ a full understanding of a woman's psyche and use complex psychological influence to right the relationship. It requires an immense amount of patience and a maximum amount of understanding. The key to it is being unreactive. There is no fight if you don't fight. A woman can't understand it when you don't get angry so....they begin to listen. Being firm , yet unreactive.

I’m listening. You’re going to have to continue on this, or I’ll look into that book you suggested.

I’ve actually noticed both angles have their own merit.

In the good ol’ fashioned fight, the end of ours usually uncovers intent on both sides—good or ugly. Either way it helps to correct the one or the other. I’ve learned some really important things about myself I wouldn’t have learned otherwise.

I’ve definitely learned your side you talk of as well, but haven’t quite mastered. Maybe it’s because I don’t have the discipline yet, or don’t understand it to make the best use of it. This means seems good only if you really believe you’re right, because it almost seems manipulative in a way if not done with righteous intent. It definitely helps persuasively and allows her to listen and consider.

[EvanLM]

when God needed to populate the earth then why didn't he have many eves since 9 months is required for one baby on this mortal planet?

Elohim and Jehovah created two mortals out of dust . . . no procreation . . that's what Gods can do . . make mortals out of dust . . .amazing

however back to the previous problem . . .How do you quickly populate a planet? Well, God still set the type for us . . .one man . . one woman . . .hmmmmmmmm

polygamy is cultural

[EvanLM]

romantic love as talked abut here is also cultural and the solutions that we use and are stated here are driven by the culture that we live in

[Gadianton Slayer]

Fair enough. What isn’t stupid in this modern world?

Monogamy.

[Mangus MacLeod]

when God needed to populate the earth then why didn't he have many eves since 9 months is required for one baby on this mortal planet?

Elohim and Jehovah created two mortals out of dust . . . no procreation . . that's what Gods can do . . make mortals out of dust . . .amazing

however back to the previous problem . . .How do you quickly populate a planet? Well, God still set the type for us . . .one man . . one woman . . .hmmmmmmmm

polygamy is cultural

It's great to hear more female perspective. At this point in the discussion, we're talking about the issue of female productivity rather than reproductivity. God gave Eve to Adam as a help mate. We don't know if Adam was a polygamist or not. We know that obviously their children -- full siblings -- mated with each other. We don't know whether Adam mated with any of his daughters or not. Frankly, it would seem likely, but that's a discussion for another day.

The real issue now focuses on what, if any, legitimate productive contributions females and wives can make to the equation, and why that should be a concern -- especially under the conditions that currently exist, and the direction the world is quickly moving. Why would/should a husband be concerned about his wife/wives productive versus consumptive orientation and capacity? Why?

[FrankOne]

what's interesting about that quote above is that it's true ..... and it's false at the same time. The general realization for the typical modern man is true, he has been effectively castrated, yet the solution given is worse than ineffective. yet...there is a solution and it's already been presented two posts up by hyloglyph. When a man understands , he can teach. The most difficult part of this process of understanding a woman and then teaching her, is that the method that you are employing cannot be shared with her for it to remain effective. Clear logic fails.

"Fighting" as instructed above would work about as well putting out a fire with gasoline and the result in this day and age would just mean that she goes off with half of everything you own as well as destroy the family.

I tried to search out that quote, but couldn't find it. Do you have a reference?
Thanks.

No reference. It is a private person who wrote this to his friends who were all in similar situations.

Funny enough I did it myself and it worked. Fought it out.

Wife didn’t leave.

Took about 2 years though. Many layers had to get peeled back. Once we thought everything was good we would discover a whole new issue.

None of this was in like therapy or anything. Just good old fashioned husband and wife fighting.

Your mileage may vary though. In my case I knew that my wife loved me very much and I love her very much and we are determined to raise our kids together.

So had I tried this in a situation where the wife was already halfway out the door yeah it would have blown up.

I’m such an idiot that I just tried it on a perfectly good and peaceful relationship. Took two years but eventually resolved and I don’t want to jinx myself but I am days away from basically the type of situation that I have been dreaming about since I was a kid. The type of situation that my dad had been dreaming about since he was a kid actually.

So actually it took 2 generations and 2 full years of fighting it out to get there but now I’m in the home stretch.

wow. I stand corrected and congratulations! seriously. I've never seen that done without explosive results. My wife and I began working out this subject from the time we were married. For some reason, I began to see it occurring very early in our marriage , so the adjustments were continuous (and still are). I mistakenly thought that it would be impossible to correct a long term , solidified problem as we are discussing using a direct approach. You must have a deep bond with your wife.. wow.

The other method that I was describing is a less confrontational approach. It is to employ a full understanding of a woman's psyche and use complex psychological influence to right the relationship. It requires an immense amount of patience and a maximum amount of understanding. The key to it is being unreactive. There is no fight if you don't fight. A woman can't understand it when you don't get angry so....they begin to listen. Being firm , yet unreactive.

Just one more note that comes to mind since you said that you are "in the home stretch".

From my experience:

The process of "adjustments" never ends, so be ready for that. It's never completely 100% "solved". Emotion, fear, and insecurity are incurable. These three will forever throw out wildcards. At a certain point, you might just smile when those three pop up their heads. Like watching a child sneak a cookie, its cute....but of course, needs adjustment.

The other method that I was describing is a less confrontational approach. It is to employ a full understanding of a woman's psyche and use complex psychological influence to right the relationship. It requires an immense amount of patience and a maximum amount of understanding. The key to it is being unreactive. There is no fight if you don't fight. A woman can't understand it when you don't get angry so....they begin to listen. Being firm , yet unreactive.

I’m listening. You’re going to have to continue on this, or I’ll look into that book you suggested.

I’ve actually noticed both angles have their own merit.

In the good ol’ fashioned fight, the end of ours usually uncovers intent on both sides—good or ugly. Either way it helps to correct the one or the other. I’ve learned some really important things about myself I wouldn’t have learned otherwise.

I’ve definitely learned your side you talk of as well, but haven’t quite mastered. Maybe it’s because I don’t have the discipline yet, or don’t understand it to make the best use of it. This means seems good only if you really believe you’re right, because it almost seems manipulative in a way if not done with righteous intent. It definitely helps persuasively and allows her to listen and consider.

I'm not a master of it either. It's interesting though because mastering it makes the man a master of himself because it is more about self control than it is about teaching her. I can't say that the exact 'method' is found in that book in a paragraph, but if you read it, you'll find it's all in there. It's about being quiet when she is losing it. Its more about observation instead of action. It's about letting her talk when she needs to instead of telling her what to think . Listening, especially when they don't make sense is likely the biggest part of it where you have to bite your tongue when you want to correct their irrational thoughts mid stream.

Maintaining your own clarity is what you are doing and then let them talk themselves tired. Then... look at them with love and understanding and teach. It sounded manipulative because of how I worded it, but it isn't. The plan of what to do is in your head because it has to be ......to prepare you for the moment that things spiral. You can find the book on pdf online by searching. No matter what, any man would benefit greatly by that book. It is extremely unusual and you will find things in it that you've never heard before.

[Mangus MacLeod]

Fair enough. What isn’t stupid in this modern world?

Monogamy.

I've explained this previously. What the anchor post was talking about was a whole bunch of trends and really stupid things "in this modern world," and suggested that plural marriage is just as stupid as any of the rest. My own tongue-in-cheek response asked essentially for a list of "modern trends" that aren't stupid.

Clearly, if monogamy has existed since Adam and Eve (and if Adam didn’t in fact have any other relationships before he passed), clearly it isn't a modern trend. But you think the modern model of Monogamy in all its forms -- including same-sex monogamy, etc., doesn't have plenty of elements of stupidity? If only the world were so simple.

And it would be a logical fallacy to think or say that just because monogamy does make sense in some situations that polygamy can’t and doesn’t make sense in others.

And just for clarification, are you, or have you ever been, married? Have you ever supported and provided for a wife and family? Since you’re trying to speak as some kind of expert on monogamy, have you ever been in a monogamous relationship? Just wondering.

[Sarah]

Funny how there’s people who claim to believe in plural marriage yet can’t stop complaining about how terrible plural marriage is…

The benefits of plural marriage should go to both genders, otherwise the principle is incomplete and being abused. The TEST for the husband who has this commandment or privilege, is to see if he will awaken to understand what he can give to his wives and his brethren after he has been GIVEN a gift from his wife or the Lord. In order for him to receive a gift correctly, he needs to give something in return.

Have you experienced unconditional love? Giving a gift doesn't mean you demand to receive something in return. Love is not transactional.

Yes, I've experienced unconditional love, and have given it. It's where you give without expecting anything in return, out of a feeling of love and unselfishness. It is what parents do a lot. They give to their children without expecting anything in return. The important thing is our motivation for giving. But the parent realizes that giving unconditionally can have some bad consequences. It can lead to entitlement and self-centeredness in the child - the spoiled child. So despite a good motivation, the parent must have some boundaries or the child doesn't learn to be a giver themselves. The child needs to learn how to love, and hopefully by watching the parent and being instructed the child learns how to think of others before himself.

I support women giving to their husbands unconditionally. But a wife should realize that sex is a unique kind of gift to give. When she "gives" sex she is also forced to receive it at the same time. So what if she can't appreciate whatever the husband is "giving." What if the husband gets upset that she doesn't want to receive or to give? If he is upset about not receiving, or the wife not "receiving," he isn't giving her anything out of love. His so-called "gift" to her is not motivated by unconditional love because he's giving in order to get something himself and his attitude shows this. His gifts are not true gifts, but are demands. And that's not loving his wife. That is only thinking about himself. The husband having the stronger sex drive has the duty to learn more unselfishness with sex, and to make sure his wife is getting a wonderful sex gift from him before he takes the gift she is offering.
If the wife is always the one to sacrifice first, then her husband won't learn to put her first. He will feel entitled. The husband needs to learn to give first and spoil his wife with sex she can appreciate, then he will automatically get sex to. They both need to learn unconditional love, but they can watch out for the imbalance of giving and receiving and have some boundaries or self-rules in place to make sure one or the other isn't abusing their privilege of receiving gifts. The Lord does this with us too. He blesses us "inasmuch" as we are doing what he wants us to do.

[Mangus MacLeod]

Alright, I give up. Obviously, sex is more important than food.

Maybe that old Chinese proverb applies to both food and sex: Lots of food, lots of problems; No food, one problem. Likewise, Lots of sex, lots of problems, but no sex, one problem?

[Sarah]

Alright, I give up. Obviously, sex is more important than food.

Maybe that old Chinese proverb applies to both food and sex: Lots of food, lots of problems; No food, one problem. Likewise, Lots of sex, lots of problems, but no sex, one problem?

I was replying to him. I wouldn't keep talking about sex if people didn't keep replying to my posts. I was going to reply to yours as well. You just need to be patient and stop accusing me of things.