Names/titles for Deity in the Scriptures applied to more than one person

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abijah`
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Re: Names/titles for Deity in the Scriptures applied to more than one person

Post by abijah` »

Alaris wrote: October 18th, 2020, 2:02 pm Jesus does redeem Adam but The Holy Ghost officiates Yom Kippur. The way into the holiest of all is not yet made manifest... By the Holy Ghost.
adam is the high priest. thats what his role was in the temple-garden-mointain of eden, and its the role jesus then assumes in the new eden, of the new creation. this is literally the entire point that the author of hebrews is making for example.

as for when he was once-called adam of the primeval creation, this was his original role and the one which he is destined to be restored to. there are reasons why the commandments to "guard and keep" it are the exact same phrase used of the priests in the tabernacle and its attendant rituals (including yom kippur)
https://rsc.byu.edu/ascending-mountain-lord/tree-knowledge-veil-sanctuary wrote: Adam as High Priest.

Eden was symbolically recreated in the temple’s creation, in its position as a sanctuary, and even in its decorations. As mentioned above, many of the characters from the Eden story were also represented in the temple, and Adam was represented by the priest. This can be seen in the role both play in their respective sanctuaries, their clothing, and the activities they performed.

In the temple, priests performed a double role as mediators between God and humans. First they represented the people before God. In everything from individual offerings to national catastrophes, the priest stood before God in place of the individuals to make intercession on their behalf. On the other hand, priests also represented God before the people. When an individual needed to go before the Lord, it was the priest who stood in the Lord’s place and delivered his messages, as can be seen in Deuteronomy 19:17 or 1 Samuel 1:17.

In the Garden of Eden, Adam is likewise depicted as a representative of both God and man. He is the quintessential man, as implied by his name, ʾādām (‘man’ in Hebrew). His role in the Eden story is an embodiment of the human race, and his journey from innocence to transgression can be seen in all of our lives. Yet while Adam is clearly a symbol of humanity, he is just as clearly depicted as a symbol of God. He is the image and likeness of his creator, and like God, he is charged to “have dominion . . . over all the earth” (Genesis 1:26). In the broader Near Eastern context, his very presence in the garden was a further reminder of his role as God’s representative: “Ancient kings would set up images of themselves in distant lands over which they ruled in order to represent their sovereign presence . . . Likewise, Adam was created as the image of the divine king to indicate that earth was ruled over by Yahweh.” [17]

In ancient sources outside of Genesis, Adam is also depicted wearing priestly garments. In prophesying of the downfall of the king of Tyre, Ezekiel compares this king to an Adam figure who has been cast out of Eden. He says, “Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold” (Ezekiel 28:13; emphasis added). This is no mere list of precious stones; each one of the stones mentioned is also found on the high priest’s breastplate (see Exodus 28:17–20). [18] A less overt comparison can be seen in Genesis Rabbah, a collection of ancient rabbinic commentary. Here it is stated that Adam was clothed in garments of light “which were like a torch [shedding radiance.]” [19] This is reminiscent of the holiness ascribed to the priests’ clothing, and later biblical authors likewise describe priests as “clothed with salvation” (2 Chronicles 6:41) and “clothed with righteousness” (Psalm 132:9). Extrabiblical accounts also speak of priests clothed in “a holy and glorious vestment.” [20]

Even the language used to describe Adam’s work in the Garden of Eden is the same language used of priests for their service in the temple. Priests are charged primarily with guarding and keeping the sanctuary, as in Numbers 3:7, where the priests are to guard (šmr) the charge of the sanctuary and keep (ʿbd) its service. When Adam is put in Eden, his primary responsibility is likewise to guard (šmr) and keep (ʿbd) it, as Genesis 2:15 tells us. With only a few exceptions, these two Hebrew roots are used together exclusively in reference to Adam and the priests in their duties to their respective sanctuaries. [21]

In accounts of Adam and Eve that occur outside the Bible, other authors also made the connection between Adam and priest. In the pseudepigraphic work Life of Adam and Eve, Adam is shown collecting incense to burn as an offering to God (an activity that was strictly reserved for priests), [22] and in the Book of Moses he is shown performing sacrifice (see Moses 5:5–6). [23] Rabbinic tradition holds that the dust used to create Adam was taken from the site of the future temple, [24] and in the Life of Adam and Eve, the author claims that Solomon built the temple on the site where Adam used to pray. [25]

Both within and without the Bible, Eden is presented as a type of temple where God’s presence dwells, and in this temple Adam is depicted as a priest. But given the intimate connection between these two spheres, it would be insufficient to say that the temple was a “representation” of Eden, or even that it was a “recreation” of it. In the ancient mind, the temple was the Garden of Eden, and Eden was the world’s first temple. In Jerusalem, the temple served as “a survival of the primal paradise lost to the profane world . . . It connects the protological and the eschatological, the primal and the final, preserving Eden and providing a taste of the life of intimacy with God.” [26] Having established the connection between Eden and temple, as well as between Adam and priest, we can now look at how naming is used in the creation stories to understand how ritual renaming might have functioned in the ancient temple...

Adam is placed in the garden to “cultivate (abad)” and “keep (samar)” it (Gen 2:15). The same two words are translated elsewhere “serve” and “guard”, and when they appear together, they are either referring to Israelites serving or obeying God’s word, or more usually, to the job of the priest in guarding and keeping the Temple.

Num, 3:7-8 They shall keep guard over him and over the whole congregation before the tent of meeting, as they minister at the tabernacle. 8 They shall guard all the furnishings of the tent of meeting, and keep guard over the people of Israel as they minister at the tabernacle. (Num. 3:7-8; 8:25-26; 1 Chron. 23:32) Elsewhere Adam is portrayed dressed in the clothes of the high priest, functioning as a high priest. (Ezek 28:11-19; see Beale, pg. 618 on this for more argumentation.) The tabernacle used gold and onyx stones as decorating material for the tent, the objects inside, and even the priest’s outfits. These materials were known to come from the pre-flood region of Havilah (India), likely were Eden was located (Genesis 2:12
Special garments are required in both places

Genesis 3:21 For Adam and for his wife the Lord God made leather coats [ketonet]...

Exodus 28:4 And these are the garments which they shall make...an embroidered coat
another resource describing adam as high priest - https://sbts-wordpress-uploads.s3.amaz ... -Beale.pdf

this stuff is commonly known, not only in the church, but by jews and christians alike. this isnt exactly some contestable point, it is empirical.

the entire tabernacle as well as the rituals and feasts are all callbacks to eden and the creation narrative, where adam is priest as manifest in the person of aaron, the same adam who is the holy ghost.
Is not the veil of separation what separates Adam from returning to the presence of God?
it is, and jesus rents it in twain at his death so that adam can return to eden which is barred from him no longer.
Who takes Adam to the veil?
the apostles, as ive been saying. refer to the endowment script.
You know there are tons of writings that confirm this. Discourse in Abbaton is the most comprehensive restored scripture as the Premortal covenant is revealed... Peter asks Jesus about the final mystery on the 40th day.
ive had this discussion with you at length numerous times, such as right here. with your right hand you'll read into what you think its saying about some intercessor between adam and eden, but with your left hand you'll happily ignore the fact that the discourse on abbaton presents michael and adam as two entirely separate individuals. thats an instant red flag right there, that immediately causes me to not take what it has to to say about adam serious and remember the lord's warning about the apocrypha.
Who is this Abaddon guy?
abaddon is the devil, or sometimes is described as a place - hell/the grave:

revelation 9:11
They have as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit. His name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek he is called Apollyon.

job 26:6
Sheol is naked before God, and Abaddon has no covering.

proverbs 15:10-11
There is severe discipline for him who forsakes the way; whoever hates reproof will die.
Sheol and Abaddon lie open before the LORD; how much more the hearts of the children of man

proverbs 27:20
Sheol and Abaddon are never satisfied, and never satisfied are the eyes of man.

i understand that you've come up with some construct where abaddon is referring to something good and virtuous. just know that you are utterly alone in this interpretation. no jew, christian, lds would agree with you, no speaker of hebrew would take it even remotely serious.
Then there are several works that reveal James... James is the one sitting upon Adams throne. If James had the keys you could spend an eternity looking for him, Joseph said in King Follett with an enormous wink and nod. But Jacob is really his name.
no works say this. your incredibly strained and tenuous interpretations of them say this.

strained interpretations of flawed apocryphal manuscripts are tinkling brass to my ears, if even that.
Last edited by abijah` on October 18th, 2020, 2:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

abijah`
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Re: Names/titles for Deity in the Scriptures applied to more than one person

Post by abijah` »

nightlight wrote: October 18th, 2020, 2:20 pmIf you think the Holy Ghost(Peter/Moroni/some guy currently in the 20s,30s, or forties) is next in line to be the new Jesus Christ, where would that put Adam in your train?

According to your format, wouldn't that put Adam as the next Jesus and the Peter as the next Holy Ghost, making Adam the current Holy Ghost, with Peter in route to take his set?

And how would this relate to you and me? What do think is this New New Covenant consist of?
You think when Peter/Mornoi/some guy currently between 20-50 years old... comes out of obscurity, takes his seat.....and we'll covenant with him to be our new Jesus??

^^^^^^ Do you think the climax of this work will be for us to bow to our new Jesus/God/King...???

Do you the the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ will not be Jesus of Nazareth, but this cat you look at as the new Jesus?
i know youre not asking me but personally i would say rather than adam getting displaced by some phantom personage, hie himself is the holy ghost, the angel of yhwh who also is referred to as yhwh, the heir of jesus, which means he becomes the new yhwh/jesus christ in the new creation.

his name is inside him, and their characters are repeatedly blurred as being one for a reason

exodus 23
Behold, I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared.
Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him.

the name of the god of israel, who is christ is in this angel, and this angel was the man who fell from the garden and redeemed from the grave:

https://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewto ... 14&t=57406

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nightlight
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Re: Names/titles for Deity in the Scriptures applied to more than one person

Post by nightlight »

abijah` wrote: October 18th, 2020, 2:46 pm
nightlight wrote: October 18th, 2020, 2:20 pmIf you think the Holy Ghost(Peter/Moroni/some guy currently in the 20s,30s, or forties) is next in line to be the new Jesus Christ, where would that put Adam in your train?

According to your format, wouldn't that put Adam as the next Jesus and the Peter as the next Holy Ghost, making Adam the current Holy Ghost, with Peter in route to take his set?

And how would this relate to you and me? What do think is this New New Covenant consist of?
You think when Peter/Mornoi/some guy currently between 20-50 years old... comes out of obscurity, takes his seat.....and we'll covenant with him to be our new Jesus??

^^^^^^ Do you think the climax of this work will be for us to bow to our new Jesus/God/King...???

Do you the the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ will not be Jesus of Nazareth, but this cat you look at as the new Jesus?
i know youre not asking me but personally i would say rather than adam getting displaced by some phantom personage, his himself is the holy ghost, heir of jesus, and becomes the new yhwh/jesus christ.

his name is inside him, and their characters are repeatedly blurred as being one for a reason

exodus 23
Behold, I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared.
Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him.

https://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewto ... 14&t=57406
I don't think there will be a new Jesus Christ for us(the Fathers children). We have one... He's infinite... He's Alpha and Omega.

Jesus of Nazareth is our Eternal King.
Michael is our Prince. Jesus set him up as our Prince.

We are one , so we now progress as a group. For Michael to move up on us would mean we'd be stagnant. No. We move together in the next Kingdom.

Christ will always be our Eldest/King/Saviour/God.....but after our Ascension, we'll move together in a horizontal fashion, not not in a single file line.

He makes us equal in Might, Power, Dominion....

This is His Work&Glory

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Luke
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Re: Names/titles for Deity in the Scriptures applied to more than one person

Post by Luke »

Alaris wrote: October 18th, 2020, 1:20 pm
Luke wrote: October 18th, 2020, 12:57 pm
Alaris wrote: October 18th, 2020, 12:25 pm Speaking without the power of the Spirit in the campaign to disappear the Holy Ghost. The irony.
No one is campaigning to disappear the Holy Ghost though
Who do you think the third member of the Godhead is?
Probably Joseph Smith, but I suspect you’re onto something with your Yahoel connections. So in a word, I don’t have a position, still searching

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nightlight
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Re: Names/titles for Deity in the Scriptures applied to more than one person

Post by nightlight »

I remember when I was young...my little brother and I would be given some hard task by our dad to complete. I was more capable than my little brother, so I would divide our task and take the heavier burden. In our attempt to complete our task, we'd both struggle with our burden...I might of been doing more but he was struggling as hard as I was to complete his end of the work.... he was filling the measure of his ability as I was mine.

When we finished we went 50/50 on our reward

"as above, so below."

abijah`
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Re: Names/titles for Deity in the Scriptures applied to more than one person

Post by abijah` »

nightlight wrote: October 18th, 2020, 3:00 pm I don't think there will be a new Jesus Christ for us(the Fathers children). We have one... He's infinite... He's Alpha and Omega.

Jesus of Nazareth is our Eternal King.
Michael is our Prince. Jesus set him up as our Prince.

We are one , so we now progress as a group. For Michael to move up on us would mean we'd be stagnant. No. We move together in the next Kingdom.

Christ will always be our Eldest/King/Saviour/God.....but after our Ascension, we'll move together in a horizontal fashion, not not in a single file line.

He makes us equal in Might, Power, Dominion....

This is His Work&Glory
i get what you're saying, and i dont think we are in disagreement here.

i dont believe in the notions of mmp as they are explained in this forum.

when i say adam/michael assumes the name of jesus christ and becomes this as his heir, i'm also referring to all his natural children.

we are all to see ourselves respectively as adam & eve. which is what i think the scriptures are getting at with language like this:

moses 1:34
And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.

moses 4:26
And Adam called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living; for thus have I, the Lord God, called the first of all women, which are many.

mark 10:45
For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

when i say he-who-was-adam becomes jesus christ, i mean in the sense of "taking the name of christ", becoming his sons and daughters.

and we are all to see ourselves as adam and eve, it includes the entirety of righteous humanity who take up their cross and repent. joint-heirs with him, raised up to the fulness of his stature

abijah`
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Re: Names/titles for Deity in the Scriptures applied to more than one person

Post by abijah` »

Luke wrote: October 18th, 2020, 3:05 pm Probably Joseph Smith, but I suspect you’re onto something with your Yahoel connections. So in a word, I don’t have a position, still searching
i think it is jahoel. i think jahoel is adam.

jahoel is literally "elijah", only backwards.

who was elijah? the man who wore the hairy garments.

just like the hairy animal akins adam was clothed with upon his exile.

2 kings 1:8
They answered him, “He wore a garment of hair, with a belt of leather about his waist.” And he said, “It is Elijah the Tishbite.”

genesis 3:21
And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them.

elijah and adam are intimately connected, perhaps even more so than one would think to assume...

and eli + jah is simply the reverse of jah + el

malachi 4
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD
And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

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Cruiserdude
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Re: Names/titles for Deity in the Scriptures applied to more than one person

Post by Cruiserdude »

abijah` wrote: October 18th, 2020, 2:31 pm
Alaris wrote: October 18th, 2020, 2:02 pm Jesus does redeem Adam but The Holy Ghost officiates Yom Kippur. The way into the holiest of all is not yet made manifest... By the Holy Ghost.
adam is the high priest. thats what his role was in the temple-garden-mointain of eden, and its the role jesus then assumes in the new eden, of the new creation. this is literally the entire point that the author of hebrews is making for example.

as for when he was once-called adam of the primeval creation, this was his original role and the one which he is destined to be restored to. there are reasons why the commandments to "guard and keep" it are the exact same phrase used of the priests in the tabernacle and its attendant rituals (including yom kippur)
https://rsc.byu.edu/ascending-mountain-lord/tree-knowledge-veil-sanctuary wrote: Adam as High Priest.

Eden was symbolically recreated in the temple’s creation, in its position as a sanctuary, and even in its decorations. As mentioned above, many of the characters from the Eden story were also represented in the temple, and Adam was represented by the priest. This can be seen in the role both play in their respective sanctuaries, their clothing, and the activities they performed.

In the temple, priests performed a double role as mediators between God and humans. First they represented the people before God. In everything from individual offerings to national catastrophes, the priest stood before God in place of the individuals to make intercession on their behalf. On the other hand, priests also represented God before the people. When an individual needed to go before the Lord, it was the priest who stood in the Lord’s place and delivered his messages, as can be seen in Deuteronomy 19:17 or 1 Samuel 1:17.

In the Garden of Eden, Adam is likewise depicted as a representative of both God and man. He is the quintessential man, as implied by his name, ʾādām (‘man’ in Hebrew). His role in the Eden story is an embodiment of the human race, and his journey from innocence to transgression can be seen in all of our lives. Yet while Adam is clearly a symbol of humanity, he is just as clearly depicted as a symbol of God. He is the image and likeness of his creator, and like God, he is charged to “have dominion . . . over all the earth” (Genesis 1:26). In the broader Near Eastern context, his very presence in the garden was a further reminder of his role as God’s representative: “Ancient kings would set up images of themselves in distant lands over which they ruled in order to represent their sovereign presence . . . Likewise, Adam was created as the image of the divine king to indicate that earth was ruled over by Yahweh.” [17]

In ancient sources outside of Genesis, Adam is also depicted wearing priestly garments. In prophesying of the downfall of the king of Tyre, Ezekiel compares this king to an Adam figure who has been cast out of Eden. He says, “Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold” (Ezekiel 28:13; emphasis added). This is no mere list of precious stones; each one of the stones mentioned is also found on the high priest’s breastplate (see Exodus 28:17–20). [18] A less overt comparison can be seen in Genesis Rabbah, a collection of ancient rabbinic commentary. Here it is stated that Adam was clothed in garments of light “which were like a torch [shedding radiance.]” [19] This is reminiscent of the holiness ascribed to the priests’ clothing, and later biblical authors likewise describe priests as “clothed with salvation” (2 Chronicles 6:41) and “clothed with righteousness” (Psalm 132:9). Extrabiblical accounts also speak of priests clothed in “a holy and glorious vestment.” [20]

Even the language used to describe Adam’s work in the Garden of Eden is the same language used of priests for their service in the temple. Priests are charged primarily with guarding and keeping the sanctuary, as in Numbers 3:7, where the priests are to guard (šmr) the charge of the sanctuary and keep (ʿbd) its service. When Adam is put in Eden, his primary responsibility is likewise to guard (šmr) and keep (ʿbd) it, as Genesis 2:15 tells us. With only a few exceptions, these two Hebrew roots are used together exclusively in reference to Adam and the priests in their duties to their respective sanctuaries. [21]

In accounts of Adam and Eve that occur outside the Bible, other authors also made the connection between Adam and priest. In the pseudepigraphic work Life of Adam and Eve, Adam is shown collecting incense to burn as an offering to God (an activity that was strictly reserved for priests), [22] and in the Book of Moses he is shown performing sacrifice (see Moses 5:5–6). [23] Rabbinic tradition holds that the dust used to create Adam was taken from the site of the future temple, [24] and in the Life of Adam and Eve, the author claims that Solomon built the temple on the site where Adam used to pray. [25]

Both within and without the Bible, Eden is presented as a type of temple where God’s presence dwells, and in this temple Adam is depicted as a priest. But given the intimate connection between these two spheres, it would be insufficient to say that the temple was a “representation” of Eden, or even that it was a “recreation” of it. In the ancient mind, the temple was the Garden of Eden, and Eden was the world’s first temple. In Jerusalem, the temple served as “a survival of the primal paradise lost to the profane world . . . It connects the protological and the eschatological, the primal and the final, preserving Eden and providing a taste of the life of intimacy with God.” [26] Having established the connection between Eden and temple, as well as between Adam and priest, we can now look at how naming is used in the creation stories to understand how ritual renaming might have functioned in the ancient temple...

Adam is placed in the garden to “cultivate (abad)” and “keep (samar)” it (Gen 2:15). The same two words are translated elsewhere “serve” and “guard”, and when they appear together, they are either referring to Israelites serving or obeying God’s word, or more usually, to the job of the priest in guarding and keeping the Temple.

Num, 3:7-8 They shall keep guard over him and over the whole congregation before the tent of meeting, as they minister at the tabernacle. 8 They shall guard all the furnishings of the tent of meeting, and keep guard over the people of Israel as they minister at the tabernacle. (Num. 3:7-8; 8:25-26; 1 Chron. 23:32) Elsewhere Adam is portrayed dressed in the clothes of the high priest, functioning as a high priest. (Ezek 28:11-19; see Beale, pg. 618 on this for more argumentation.) The tabernacle used gold and onyx stones as decorating material for the tent, the objects inside, and even the priest’s outfits. These materials were known to come from the pre-flood region of Havilah (India), likely were Eden was located (Genesis 2:12
Special garments are required in both places

Genesis 3:21 For Adam and for his wife the Lord God made leather coats [ketonet]...

Exodus 28:4 And these are the garments which they shall make...an embroidered coat
another resource describing adam as high priest - https://sbts-wordpress-uploads.s3.amaz ... -Beale.pdf

this stuff is commonly known, not only in the church, but by jews and christians alike. this isnt exactly some contestable point, it is empirical.

the entire tabernacle as well as the rituals and feasts are all callbacks to eden and the creation narrative, where adam is priest as manifest in the person of aaron, the same adam who is the holy ghost.
Is not the veil of separation what separates Adam from returning to the presence of God?
it is, and jesus rents it in twain at his death so that adam can return to eden which is barred from him no longer.
Who takes Adam to the veil?
the apostles, as ive been saying. refer to the endowment script.
You know there are tons of writings that confirm this. Discourse in Abbaton is the most comprehensive restored scripture as the Premortal covenant is revealed... Peter asks Jesus about the final mystery on the 40th day.
ive had this discussion with you at length numerous times, such as right here. with your right hand you'll read into what you think its saying about some intercessor between adam and eden, but with your left hand you'll happily ignore the fact that the discourse on abbaton presents michael and adam as two entirely separate individuals. thats an instant red flag right there, that immediately causes me to not take what it has to to say about adam serious and remember the lord's warning about the apocrypha.
Who is this Abaddon guy?
abaddon is the devil, or sometimes is described as a place - hell/the grave:

revelation 9:11
They have as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit. His name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek he is called Apollyon.

job 26:6
Sheol is naked before God, and Abaddon has no covering.

proverbs 15:10-11
There is severe discipline for him who forsakes the way; whoever hates reproof will die.
Sheol and Abaddon lie open before the LORD; how much more the hearts of the children of man

proverbs 27:20
Sheol and Abaddon are never satisfied, and never satisfied are the eyes of man.

i understand that you've come up with some construct where abaddon is referring to something good and virtuous. just know that you are utterly alone in this interpretation. no jew, christian, lds would agree with you, no speaker of hebrew would take it even remotely serious.
Then there are several works that reveal James... James is the one sitting upon Adams throne. If James had the keys you could spend an eternity looking for him, Joseph said in King Follett with an enormous wink and nod. But Jacob is really his name.
no works say this. your incredibly strained and tenuous interpretations of them say this.

strained interpretations of flawed apocryphal manuscripts are tinkling brass to my ears, if even that.
Not to go off topic but that link in your post that goes to BYU edu site, like a thesis paper or something, but that was an excellent read. The one about the Garden and the veil and sanctuary. The analogies, or the.....(whats the word I'm looking for?symbols? similarities? I dunno, the double entendre maybe?) but the depth and like multiple layers of meaning just blow me away...
So many absolutely incredible things I've run into here on this forum. Reading from y'all has helped me understand my own path sooooo much clearer. It's a beautiful thing
And of course above all thanks to such a merciful Savior that would allow His spirit to testify of truths found in, of all places, an internet forum!! :lol: :)
And thank you to all here, who are honestly sharing such beautiful special wisdom that's been shared with you, IT'S SO IMPORTANT TO SHARE THE LIGHT!

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Pazooka
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Re: Names/titles for Deity in the Scriptures applied to more than one person

Post by Pazooka »

I’m finally getting around to reading The Ascension of Isaiah. It’s a gold mine for understanding the relationship between titles of deity.
http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/pseudepig ... saiah.html

Here’s just a taste:
10:1 And then I heard the voices and the hymns of praise which ! had heard in each of the six heavens—which I had heard as I ascended there; 2and all (the voices and hymns of praise) were directed to that Glorious One whose glory I could not see. 3And I also heard and saw the praise (which was directed to) him, 4and the Lord and the angel of the Spirit heard everything and saw everything. 5And all the praise which was sent (up) from the six heavens was not only heard, but seen. 6And I heard the angel who led me, and he said to me, "This is the Most High of the high ones, who dwells in the holy world, who rests among the holy ones, who will be called by the Holy Spirit in the mouth of the righteous the Father of the Lord." 7And I heard the voice of the Most High, the Father of my Lord, as he said to my Load [Lord] Christ, who will be called Jesus, 8"Go out and descend through all the heavens. You shall descend through the firmament and through that world as far as the angel who (is) in Sheol, but you shall not go as far as Perdition.
There is a whole lot of deity being discussed there.

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Michael Sherwin
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Re: Names/titles for Deity in the Scriptures applied to more than one person

Post by Michael Sherwin »

There was a study I read that says "the only begotten" is a wrong translation. It should say "the unique one".

People fail to distinguish between Jesus, Christ and Jesus Christ. Jesus is the man. Christ is the Spirit that indwelt Jesus. Jesus Christ is both the Spirit and the man together. Every scripture that refers to Christ does not also refer to Jesus.

People fail to understand that there was Adam. That Christ was breathed into Adam beginning human life. And thus Adam was Adam Christ in the same way Jesus became Jesus Christ. We are all (except the tares) Our_name christ. We are not Our_name Christ as we only have a mustard sized amount of the Christ Spirit within us that comes down to us from Adam through our parents.

Michael is the Christ Spirit, the Spirit of God the Father, the Angel of the LORD. Michael was the Spirit made better than the rest. Michael indwelt Adam until Adam sinned. Michael indwelt Jesus at his baptism. Enoch walked with God all the days of his life. Enoch was indwelt by Michael.

Jesus differentiated between the Father in heaven and the Father that indwelt him as the greater God and the lesser God. When Jesus said, my Father in heaven he was not talking as the man, he was talking as the indwelling Father. When Jesus called the indwelling Spirit Father he meant our Father. Michael's Father is the Father in heaven. Our Father is Michael.

The Bible's definitions of Father and God are not exactly the same. Our God is that Spirit which gives us life.

22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

That is because we are born with a small portion of the Christ Spirit which is a sliver of the Holy Spirit which is the true baptism by water. The baptism of Jesus by John was a dramatization of heavenly truth and earthly reality. John told Jesus that he had no need to be baptised by water. Which means that Jesus did not need to be born on earth. Then John continued that it was him (John) that needed baptised with fire from Jesus. Then Jesus said baptise me to fulfill all righteousness. Thus saying in this drama that he (Jesus) to fulfill all righteousness indeed had to be born on earth. Jesus was already an exalted man before being born on earth. He was from above as some others (John 17) are from above. They already completed what we have not yet completed. That is why Jesus could have no human father. Jesus already has a father from before Adam. God the Father in heaven is to Jesus the same as the Christ Spirit is to us.

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nightlight
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Re: Names/titles for Deity in the Scriptures applied to more than one person

Post by nightlight »

Michael Sherwin wrote: October 19th, 2020, 12:54 pm There was a study I read that says "the only begotten" is a wrong translation. It should say "the unique one".

People fail to distinguish between Jesus, Christ and Jesus Christ. Jesus is the man. Christ is the spirit that indwelt Jesus. Jesus Christ is both the Spirit and the man together. Every scripture that refers to Christ does not also refer to Jesus.

People fail to understand that there was Adam. That Christ was breathed into Adam beginning human life. And thus Adam was Adam Christ in the same way Jesus became Jesus Christ. We are all (except the tares) Our_name christ. We are not Our_name Christ as we only have a mustard sized amount of the Christ Spirit within us that comes down to us from Adam through our parents.

Michael is the Christ Spirit, the Spirit of God the Father, the Angel of the LORD. Michael was the Spirit made better than the rest. Michael indwelt Adam until Adam sinned. Michael indwelt Jesus at his baptism. Enoch walked with God all the days of his life. Enoch was indwelt by Michael.

Jesus differentiated between the Father in heaven and the Father that indwelt him as the greater God and the lesser God. When Jesus said, my Father in heaven he was not talking as the man, he was talking as the indwelling Father. When Jesus called the indwelling Spirit Father he meant our Father. Michael's Father is the Father in heaven. Our Father is Michael.

The Bible's definitions of Father and God are not exactly the same. Our God is that Spirit which gives us life.

22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

That is because we are born with a small portion of the Christ Spirit which is a sliver of the Holy Spirit which is the true baptism by water. The baptism of Jesus by John was a dramatization of heavenly truth and earthly reality. John told Jesus that he had no need to baptised by water. Which means that Jesus did not need to be born on earth. Then John continued that it was him (John) that needed baptised with fire from Jesus. Then Jesus said baptise me to fulfill all righteousness. Thus saying in this drama that he (Jesus) to fulfill all righteousness indeed had to be born on earth. Jesus was already an exalted man before being born on earth. He was from above as some others (John 17) are from above. They already completed what we have not yet completed. That is why Jesus could have no human father. Jesus already has a father from before Adam. God the Father in heaven is to Jesus the same as the Christ Spirit is to us.
Makes no difference. Before Jesus came to the flesh...HE was God of everything. He is the God of the Old Testament...God of the New Testament etc.

He came to take upon Himself the flesh and let His natural side be swallowed up in the Spirit... This doesn't nullify who He was before He took a body .

He wasn't a exalted body of flesh before coming from Mary's womb. See 👀 Ether

He is the Only Begotten...

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Michael Sherwin
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Re: Names/titles for Deity in the Scriptures applied to more than one person

Post by Michael Sherwin »

nightlight wrote: October 19th, 2020, 1:06 pm
Michael Sherwin wrote: October 19th, 2020, 12:54 pm There was a study I read that says "the only begotten" is a wrong translation. It should say "the unique one".

People fail to distinguish between Jesus, Christ and Jesus Christ. Jesus is the man. Christ is the spirit that indwelt Jesus. Jesus Christ is both the Spirit and the man together. Every scripture that refers to Christ does not also refer to Jesus.

People fail to understand that there was Adam. That Christ was breathed into Adam beginning human life. And thus Adam was Adam Christ in the same way Jesus became Jesus Christ. We are all (except the tares) Our_name christ. We are not Our_name Christ as we only have a mustard sized amount of the Christ Spirit within us that comes down to us from Adam through our parents.

Michael is the Christ Spirit, the Spirit of God the Father, the Angel of the LORD. Michael was the Spirit made better than the rest. Michael indwelt Adam until Adam sinned. Michael indwelt Jesus at his baptism. Enoch walked with God all the days of his life. Enoch was indwelt by Michael.

Jesus differentiated between the Father in heaven and the Father that indwelt him as the greater God and the lesser God. When Jesus said, my Father in heaven he was not talking as the man, he was talking as the indwelling Father. When Jesus called the indwelling Spirit Father he meant our Father. Michael's Father is the Father in heaven. Our Father is Michael.

The Bible's definitions of Father and God are not exactly the same. Our God is that Spirit which gives us life.

22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

That is because we are born with a small portion of the Christ Spirit which is a sliver of the Holy Spirit which is the true baptism by water. The baptism of Jesus by John was a dramatization of heavenly truth and earthly reality. John told Jesus that he had no need to baptised by water. Which means that Jesus did not need to be born on earth. Then John continued that it was him (John) that needed baptised with fire from Jesus. Then Jesus said baptise me to fulfill all righteousness. Thus saying in this drama that he (Jesus) to fulfill all righteousness indeed had to be born on earth. Jesus was already an exalted man before being born on earth. He was from above as some others (John 17) are from above. They already completed what we have not yet completed. That is why Jesus could have no human father. Jesus already has a father from before Adam. God the Father in heaven is to Jesus the same as the Christ Spirit is to us.
Makes no difference. Before Jesus came to the flesh...HE was God of everything. He is the God of the Old Testament...God of the New Testament etc.

He came to take upon Himself the flesh and let His natural side be swallowed up in the Spirit... This doesn't nullify who He was before He took a body .

He wasn't a exalted body of flesh before coming from Mary's womb. See 👀 Ether

He is the Only Begotten...
3:8 And he saith unto the Lord, I saw the finger of the Lord, and I feared lest he should smite me: for I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood.
3:9 And the Lord said unto him, Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood, and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast: for were it so, ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?


He had at one time flesh and blood and will once again have flesh and blood.
Edit: The Spirit just told me that they will not understand. They won't see had as had because they will only see, "thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood. They won't see had as part of, "Sawest thou more than this"

3:14 Behold, I am he which was prepared from the foundation of the world, to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have light, and that eternally, even they which shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and daughters.

This was planned from the foundation of the world. He will be both man and God in Jesus Christ after Jesus once again takes on flesh and blood. Jesus Christ is both the Father, the Christ Spirit and the son of his Father in heaven.

In short it is essentially exactly what I posted above. And I never read Ether before. I did listen to the BoM on CD when I had cataracts. But, I did not retain much because mostly I was asleep within five minutes. I've only read the BoM since to investigate claims by others.

3:15 And never hath I shewed myself unto man whom I have created, for never hath man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created, in the beginning, after mine own image.

3:16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit, will I appear unto my people in the flesh.
Last edited by Michael Sherwin on October 19th, 2020, 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Names/titles for Deity in the Scriptures applied to more than one person

Post by Robin Hood »

Michael Sherwin wrote: October 19th, 2020, 1:46 pm
nightlight wrote: October 19th, 2020, 1:06 pm
Michael Sherwin wrote: October 19th, 2020, 12:54 pm There was a study I read that says "the only begotten" is a wrong translation. It should say "the unique one".

People fail to distinguish between Jesus, Christ and Jesus Christ. Jesus is the man. Christ is the spirit that indwelt Jesus. Jesus Christ is both the Spirit and the man together. Every scripture that refers to Christ does not also refer to Jesus.

People fail to understand that there was Adam. That Christ was breathed into Adam beginning human life. And thus Adam was Adam Christ in the same way Jesus became Jesus Christ. We are all (except the tares) Our_name christ. We are not Our_name Christ as we only have a mustard sized amount of the Christ Spirit within us that comes down to us from Adam through our parents.

Michael is the Christ Spirit, the Spirit of God the Father, the Angel of the LORD. Michael was the Spirit made better than the rest. Michael indwelt Adam until Adam sinned. Michael indwelt Jesus at his baptism. Enoch walked with God all the days of his life. Enoch was indwelt by Michael.

Jesus differentiated between the Father in heaven and the Father that indwelt him as the greater God and the lesser God. When Jesus said, my Father in heaven he was not talking as the man, he was talking as the indwelling Father. When Jesus called the indwelling Spirit Father he meant our Father. Michael's Father is the Father in heaven. Our Father is Michael.

The Bible's definitions of Father and God are not exactly the same. Our God is that Spirit which gives us life.

22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

That is because we are born with a small portion of the Christ Spirit which is a sliver of the Holy Spirit which is the true baptism by water. The baptism of Jesus by John was a dramatization of heavenly truth and earthly reality. John told Jesus that he had no need to baptised by water. Which means that Jesus did not need to be born on earth. Then John continued that it was him (John) that needed baptised with fire from Jesus. Then Jesus said baptise me to fulfill all righteousness. Thus saying in this drama that he (Jesus) to fulfill all righteousness indeed had to be born on earth. Jesus was already an exalted man before being born on earth. He was from above as some others (John 17) are from above. They already completed what we have not yet completed. That is why Jesus could have no human father. Jesus already has a father from before Adam. God the Father in heaven is to Jesus the same as the Christ Spirit is to us.
Makes no difference. Before Jesus came to the flesh...HE was God of everything. He is the God of the Old Testament...God of the New Testament etc.

He came to take upon Himself the flesh and let His natural side be swallowed up in the Spirit... This doesn't nullify who He was before He took a body .

He wasn't a exalted body of flesh before coming from Mary's womb. See 👀 Ether

He is the Only Begotten...
3:8 And he saith unto the Lord, I saw the finger of the Lord, and I feared lest he should smite me: for I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood.
3:9 And the Lord said unto him, Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood, and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast: for were it so, ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?


He had at one time flesh and blood and will once again have flesh and blood.

3:14 Behold, I am he which was prepared from the foundation of the world, to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have light, and that eternally, even they which shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and daughters.

This was planned from the foundation of the world. He will be both man and God in Jesus Christ after Jesus once again takes on flesh and blood. Jesus Christ is both the Father, the Christ Spirit and the son of his Father in heaven.

In short it is essentially exactly what I posted above. And I never read Ether before. I did listen to the BoM on CD when I had cataracts. But, I did not retain much because mostly I was asleep within five minutes. I've only read the BoM since to investigate claims by others.

3:15 And never hath I shewed myself unto man whom I have created, for never hath man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created, in the beginning, after mine own image.

3:16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit, will I appear unto my people in the flesh.
Nice try Michael, but it doesn't work.
The "had" quote was from the Brother of Jared, not from the Lord.
It was used in the present tense and was not a commentary on some previous existence to which the BoJ would have no knowledge of..

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Michael Sherwin
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Re: Names/titles for Deity in the Scriptures applied to more than one person

Post by Michael Sherwin »

Robin Hood wrote: October 19th, 2020, 1:59 pm
Michael Sherwin wrote: October 19th, 2020, 1:46 pm
nightlight wrote: October 19th, 2020, 1:06 pm
Michael Sherwin wrote: October 19th, 2020, 12:54 pm There was a study I read that says "the only begotten" is a wrong translation. It should say "the unique one".

People fail to distinguish between Jesus, Christ and Jesus Christ. Jesus is the man. Christ is the spirit that indwelt Jesus. Jesus Christ is both the Spirit and the man together. Every scripture that refers to Christ does not also refer to Jesus.

People fail to understand that there was Adam. That Christ was breathed into Adam beginning human life. And thus Adam was Adam Christ in the same way Jesus became Jesus Christ. We are all (except the tares) Our_name christ. We are not Our_name Christ as we only have a mustard sized amount of the Christ Spirit within us that comes down to us from Adam through our parents.

Michael is the Christ Spirit, the Spirit of God the Father, the Angel of the LORD. Michael was the Spirit made better than the rest. Michael indwelt Adam until Adam sinned. Michael indwelt Jesus at his baptism. Enoch walked with God all the days of his life. Enoch was indwelt by Michael.

Jesus differentiated between the Father in heaven and the Father that indwelt him as the greater God and the lesser God. When Jesus said, my Father in heaven he was not talking as the man, he was talking as the indwelling Father. When Jesus called the indwelling Spirit Father he meant our Father. Michael's Father is the Father in heaven. Our Father is Michael.

The Bible's definitions of Father and God are not exactly the same. Our God is that Spirit which gives us life.

22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

That is because we are born with a small portion of the Christ Spirit which is a sliver of the Holy Spirit which is the true baptism by water. The baptism of Jesus by John was a dramatization of heavenly truth and earthly reality. John told Jesus that he had no need to baptised by water. Which means that Jesus did not need to be born on earth. Then John continued that it was him (John) that needed baptised with fire from Jesus. Then Jesus said baptise me to fulfill all righteousness. Thus saying in this drama that he (Jesus) to fulfill all righteousness indeed had to be born on earth. Jesus was already an exalted man before being born on earth. He was from above as some others (John 17) are from above. They already completed what we have not yet completed. That is why Jesus could have no human father. Jesus already has a father from before Adam. God the Father in heaven is to Jesus the same as the Christ Spirit is to us.
Makes no difference. Before Jesus came to the flesh...HE was God of everything. He is the God of the Old Testament...God of the New Testament etc.

He came to take upon Himself the flesh and let His natural side be swallowed up in the Spirit... This doesn't nullify who He was before He took a body .

He wasn't a exalted body of flesh before coming from Mary's womb. See 👀 Ether

He is the Only Begotten...
3:8 And he saith unto the Lord, I saw the finger of the Lord, and I feared lest he should smite me: for I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood.
3:9 And the Lord said unto him, Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood, and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast: for were it so, ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?


He had at one time flesh and blood and will once again have flesh and blood.

3:14 Behold, I am he which was prepared from the foundation of the world, to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have light, and that eternally, even they which shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and daughters.

This was planned from the foundation of the world. He will be both man and God in Jesus Christ after Jesus once again takes on flesh and blood. Jesus Christ is both the Father, the Christ Spirit and the son of his Father in heaven.

In short it is essentially exactly what I posted above. And I never read Ether before. I did listen to the BoM on CD when I had cataracts. But, I did not retain much because mostly I was asleep within five minutes. I've only read the BoM since to investigate claims by others.

3:15 And never hath I shewed myself unto man whom I have created, for never hath man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created, in the beginning, after mine own image.

3:16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit, will I appear unto my people in the flesh.
Nice try Michael, but it doesn't work.
The "had" quote was from the Brother of Jared, not from the Lord.
It was used in the present tense and was not a commentary on some previous existence to which the BoJ would have no knowledge of..
I edited my above post before I saw your reply!

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Robin Hood
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Re: Names/titles for Deity in the Scriptures applied to more than one person

Post by Robin Hood »

Michael Sherwin wrote: October 19th, 2020, 2:02 pm
Robin Hood wrote: October 19th, 2020, 1:59 pm
Michael Sherwin wrote: October 19th, 2020, 1:46 pm
nightlight wrote: October 19th, 2020, 1:06 pm

Makes no difference. Before Jesus came to the flesh...HE was God of everything. He is the God of the Old Testament...God of the New Testament etc.

He came to take upon Himself the flesh and let His natural side be swallowed up in the Spirit... This doesn't nullify who He was before He took a body .

He wasn't a exalted body of flesh before coming from Mary's womb. See 👀 Ether

He is the Only Begotten...
3:8 And he saith unto the Lord, I saw the finger of the Lord, and I feared lest he should smite me: for I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood.
3:9 And the Lord said unto him, Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood, and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast: for were it so, ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?


He had at one time flesh and blood and will once again have flesh and blood.

3:14 Behold, I am he which was prepared from the foundation of the world, to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have light, and that eternally, even they which shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and daughters.

This was planned from the foundation of the world. He will be both man and God in Jesus Christ after Jesus once again takes on flesh and blood. Jesus Christ is both the Father, the Christ Spirit and the son of his Father in heaven.

In short it is essentially exactly what I posted above. And I never read Ether before. I did listen to the BoM on CD when I had cataracts. But, I did not retain much because mostly I was asleep within five minutes. I've only read the BoM since to investigate claims by others.

3:15 And never hath I shewed myself unto man whom I have created, for never hath man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created, in the beginning, after mine own image.

3:16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit, will I appear unto my people in the flesh.
Nice try Michael, but it doesn't work.
The "had" quote was from the Brother of Jared, not from the Lord.
It was used in the present tense and was not a commentary on some previous existence to which the BoJ would have no knowledge of..
I edited my above post before I saw your reply!
Still beyond tenuous.

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Michael Sherwin
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Posts: 1984

Re: Names/titles for Deity in the Scriptures applied to more than one person

Post by Michael Sherwin »

Robin Hood wrote: October 19th, 2020, 2:04 pm
Michael Sherwin wrote: October 19th, 2020, 2:02 pm
Robin Hood wrote: October 19th, 2020, 1:59 pm
Michael Sherwin wrote: October 19th, 2020, 1:46 pm
3:8 And he saith unto the Lord, I saw the finger of the Lord, and I feared lest he should smite me: for I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood.
3:9 And the Lord said unto him, Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood, and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast: for were it so, ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?


He had at one time flesh and blood and will once again have flesh and blood.

3:14 Behold, I am he which was prepared from the foundation of the world, to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have light, and that eternally, even they which shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and daughters.

This was planned from the foundation of the world. He will be both man and God in Jesus Christ after Jesus once again takes on flesh and blood. Jesus Christ is both the Father, the Christ Spirit and the son of his Father in heaven.

In short it is essentially exactly what I posted above. And I never read Ether before. I did listen to the BoM on CD when I had cataracts. But, I did not retain much because mostly I was asleep within five minutes. I've only read the BoM since to investigate claims by others.

3:15 And never hath I shewed myself unto man whom I have created, for never hath man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created, in the beginning, after mine own image.

3:16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit, will I appear unto my people in the flesh.
Nice try Michael, but it doesn't work.
The "had" quote was from the Brother of Jared, not from the Lord.
It was used in the present tense and was not a commentary on some previous existence to which the BoJ would have no knowledge of..
I edited my above post before I saw your reply!
Still beyond tenuous.
You say the present but Jared's brother was in the distant past from the time of Moroni. So who's present are you talking about?

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Robin Hood
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Re: Names/titles for Deity in the Scriptures applied to more than one person

Post by Robin Hood »

Michael Sherwin wrote: October 19th, 2020, 2:09 pm
Robin Hood wrote: October 19th, 2020, 2:04 pm
Michael Sherwin wrote: October 19th, 2020, 2:02 pm
Robin Hood wrote: October 19th, 2020, 1:59 pm

Nice try Michael, but it doesn't work.
The "had" quote was from the Brother of Jared, not from the Lord.
It was used in the present tense and was not a commentary on some previous existence to which the BoJ would have no knowledge of..
I edited my above post before I saw your reply!
Still beyond tenuous.
You say the present but Jared's brother was in the distant past from the time of Moroni. So who's present are you talking about?
In context it's clearly the BoJ.

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Michael Sherwin
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Posts: 1984

Re: Names/titles for Deity in the Scriptures applied to more than one person

Post by Michael Sherwin »

Robin Hood wrote: October 19th, 2020, 2:04 pm
Michael Sherwin wrote: October 19th, 2020, 2:02 pm
Robin Hood wrote: October 19th, 2020, 1:59 pm
Michael Sherwin wrote: October 19th, 2020, 1:46 pm
3:8 And he saith unto the Lord, I saw the finger of the Lord, and I feared lest he should smite me: for I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood.
3:9 And the Lord said unto him, Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood, and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast: for were it so, ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?


He had at one time flesh and blood and will once again have flesh and blood.

3:14 Behold, I am he which was prepared from the foundation of the world, to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have light, and that eternally, even they which shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and daughters.

This was planned from the foundation of the world. He will be both man and God in Jesus Christ after Jesus once again takes on flesh and blood. Jesus Christ is both the Father, the Christ Spirit and the son of his Father in heaven.

In short it is essentially exactly what I posted above. And I never read Ether before. I did listen to the BoM on CD when I had cataracts. But, I did not retain much because mostly I was asleep within five minutes. I've only read the BoM since to investigate claims by others.

3:15 And never hath I shewed myself unto man whom I have created, for never hath man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created, in the beginning, after mine own image.

3:16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit, will I appear unto my people in the flesh.
Nice try Michael, but it doesn't work.
The "had" quote was from the Brother of Jared, not from the Lord.
It was used in the present tense and was not a commentary on some previous existence to which the BoJ would have no knowledge of..
I edited my above post before I saw your reply!
Still beyond tenuous.
Robin Hood, I claim that I hear from the Spirit. You never allude to the slightest possibility of that. About the "ENGLAND" subject you said,
So, I have looked again at Michael Sherwin's position regarding the Book of Mormon narrative being played out in the British Isles.
It can be made to fit; and fit a lot better than Peru or anywhere in South America.
I can't believe I'm saying this.... but could he be right?
I recently re-watched a presentation by Wayne May about the Jaredites. Not only did he claim that they were Negroes (which appears to be a reasonable assumption), but he also claimed they sailed from England.
Is it possible that the Gentiles who colonised the US were actually following in the footsteps of Book of Mormon people?

I argued quite forcefully against Michael Sherwin's claim, and I am far from convinced to say the least. But the geography does appear to fit quite well, as does some historical data.
Is it worth further investigation?
If the Spirit was not the claimant then how is it that a random thought of mine could have resulted in you posting what was quoted? Seems rather far fetched! I should have played the lottery that day instead of starting the ENGLAND subject!

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Michael Sherwin
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Re: Names/titles for Deity in the Scriptures applied to more than one person

Post by Michael Sherwin »

Robin Hood wrote: October 19th, 2020, 2:36 pm
Michael Sherwin wrote: October 19th, 2020, 2:09 pm
Robin Hood wrote: October 19th, 2020, 2:04 pm
Michael Sherwin wrote: October 19th, 2020, 2:02 pm
I edited my above post before I saw your reply!
Still beyond tenuous.
You say the present but Jared's brother was in the distant past from the time of Moroni. So who's present are you talking about?
In context it's clearly the BoJ.
You say the brother of Jared would have no knowledge of the previous existence. However,

3:6 And it came to pass that when the brother of Jared had said those words, behold, the Lord stretched forth his hand and touched the stones, one by one, with his finger; and the veil was taken from off the eyes of the brother of Jared, and he saw the finger of the Lord; and it was as the finger of a man, like unto flesh and blood; and the brother of Jared fell down before the Lord, for he was struck with fear.

So boJ had his memory restored and he did have that knowledge. That happened to me once in a dream and I remembered everything including from before the creation. And all I remember after that is it was amazing!!! In that dream Jesus took down the veil just for a moment and I knew who I was and what I was and why I am here. I knew everything for just a moment. And then the veil was put back and now I don't remember. :cry:

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Robin Hood
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Re: Names/titles for Deity in the Scriptures applied to more than one person

Post by Robin Hood »

Michael Sherwin wrote: October 19th, 2020, 2:57 pm
Robin Hood wrote: October 19th, 2020, 2:36 pm
Michael Sherwin wrote: October 19th, 2020, 2:09 pm
Robin Hood wrote: October 19th, 2020, 2:04 pm

Still beyond tenuous.
You say the present but Jared's brother was in the distant past from the time of Moroni. So who's present are you talking about?
In context it's clearly the BoJ.
You say the brother of Jared would have no knowledge of the previous existence. However,

3:6 And it came to pass that when the brother of Jared had said those words, behold, the Lord stretched forth his hand and touched the stones, one by one, with his finger; and the veil was taken from off the eyes of the brother of Jared, and he saw the finger of the Lord; and it was as the finger of a man, like unto flesh and blood; and the brother of Jared fell down before the Lord, for he was struck with fear.

So boJ had his memory restored and he did have that knowledge. That happened to me once in a dream and I remembered everything including from before the creation. And all I remember after that is it was amazing!!! In that dream Jesus took down the veil just for a moment and I knew who I was and what I was and why I am here. I knew everything for just a moment. And then the veil was put back and now I don't remember. :cry:
But the scripture is self explanatory. The veil was taken from off the eyes of BoJ, and the result was that he saw the Lord's finger. It's clearly there in black and white. Nowhere does it even hint at anything else.
I think you're reading far too much into this, and seeing things that just aren't there.

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Michael Sherwin
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Re: Names/titles for Deity in the Scriptures applied to more than one person

Post by Michael Sherwin »

Robin Hood wrote: October 19th, 2020, 3:06 pm
Michael Sherwin wrote: October 19th, 2020, 2:57 pm
Robin Hood wrote: October 19th, 2020, 2:36 pm
Michael Sherwin wrote: October 19th, 2020, 2:09 pm
You say the present but Jared's brother was in the distant past from the time of Moroni. So who's present are you talking about?
In context it's clearly the BoJ.
You say the brother of Jared would have no knowledge of the previous existence. However,

3:6 And it came to pass that when the brother of Jared had said those words, behold, the Lord stretched forth his hand and touched the stones, one by one, with his finger; and the veil was taken from off the eyes of the brother of Jared, and he saw the finger of the Lord; and it was as the finger of a man, like unto flesh and blood; and the brother of Jared fell down before the Lord, for he was struck with fear.

So boJ had his memory restored and he did have that knowledge. That happened to me once in a dream and I remembered everything including from before the creation. And all I remember after that is it was amazing!!! In that dream Jesus took down the veil just for a moment and I knew who I was and what I was and why I am here. I knew everything for just a moment. And then the veil was put back and now I don't remember. :cry:
But the scripture is self explanatory. The veil was taken from off the eyes of BoJ, and the result was that he saw the Lord's finger. It's clearly there in black and white. Nowhere does it even hint at anything else.
I think you're reading far too much into this, and seeing things that just aren't there.
I was not feeling well enough to study further until this morning.
3:20 wherefore, having this perfect knowledge of God, he could not be kept from within the veil; therefore he saw Jesus, and he did minister unto him. 3:21 And it came to pass that the Lord said unto the brother of Jared, Behold, thou shalt not suffer these things which ye have seen and heard, to go forth unto the world, until the time cometh that I shall glorify my name in the flesh; wherefore, ye shall treasure up the things which ye have seen and heard, and shew it to no man.

3:27 And the Lord said unto him, Write these things and seal them up, and I will shew them in mine own due time unto the children of men.

4:4 Behold, I have written upon these plates the very things which the brother of Jared saw; and there never was greater things made manifest, than that which was made manifest unto the brother of Jared;
As soon as I read in 3:6 that, "the veil was taken from off the eyes of the brother of Jared" I knew the BoJ had his complete memory restored. I know that because that is what happened to me for only a moment. In the case of the BoJ the veil was not put back in place like what was done in my case.
12:21 And after that the brother of Jared had beheld the finger of the Lord, because of the promise which the brother of Jared had obtained by faith, the Lord could not withhold any thing from his sight; wherefore he shewed him all things, for he could no longer be kept without the veil.
3:8 And he saith unto the Lord, I saw the finger of the Lord, and I feared lest he should smite me: for I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood.
DEFINITION OF HAD
verb
past tense: had; past participle: had
1.
possess, own, or hold.
"he had a new car and a boat"
Similar:
possess
own
be in possession of
be the owner of
be the (proud) possessor of
have in one's possession
have to one's name
count among one's possessions
be blessed with
boast
enjoy
keep
maintain
retain
hold
use
utilize
occupy
Opposite: be bereft of
Therefore, Jesus already HAD a flesh and blood body sometime previously. He was now Spirit (an exalted man). Then when he was born on this earth he gave that up to once again have a flesh and blood body.

I have never read Ether before. I do not need to read the BoM before speaking the BoM! The missionaries that brought me into the church baffled by my knowledge said one and the other agreed, "You speak the Holy Spirit". Believe it or not! I guess it will be, not.

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Re: Names/titles for Deity in the Scriptures applied to more than one person

Post by Zathura »

abijah` wrote: October 18th, 2020, 6:18 am
Robin Hood wrote: October 18th, 2020, 5:57 am Good points.
A question:
So are you saying Adam/Michael is the Holy Ghost, or do you mean some other spirit?
The reason I ask is that the scriptures say that Adam was baptised in water by the spirit. I have never understood why this would be so, or even permitted given it's a physical ordinance.
Just interested in your take.
i do think michael/adam is the third member of the godhead

in moses 5 the holy ghost speaks saying "i am the only begotten" as if it were jesus

therefore i might argue that when one paraclete ("comforter") is operating in a tabernacle of flesh, that the other one takes up the duties of the other somehow, though im not sure of the details of how it would work.

i suspect it has a lot to do with why john says the gift of the holy ghost was only given in limited capacity during jesus's ministry. connected with that, i also find it very interesting how in the endowment its the apostles job to come down and endow adam with power, while in the new testament its the precise inverse that occurs.

the ones who clothe adam become the the ones who are then clothed by the holy ghost.

maybe the spirit in the moses narrative could be some way of referring to the capacity of the apostles as we see them in the temple drama ministering to adam and eve in the lone and dreary world. they doing for him what he later does for them, answering the physical ordinance conundrum. they baptising him with water, and then him baptising them with fire. it only makes sense, and the gospel is full of these poetic inversions.

also kind of weird how the holy ghost is nowhere to be seen in the endowment, and the three-part godhead is presented as elohim-yhwh-michael

plus adam and eve explicitly get commanded to teach their children the gospel. who teaches mankind (all of adam's children)? the holy ghost. i submit only the father of all has stewardship to enter the tabernacles of all his natural children to teach them. seems to me like only the natural patriarch from whom those tabernacles were produced and descended from would have authority to dwell inside them to do that. family business is family business after all, and i reckon theres an order to it. we are all to view ourselves as adam moreover, who more fitting to be the internal testator of all truth to the hearts of the children as they in turn become receptive to the heart of the firstfather who begat them.
We talk about the Holy Ghost being limited during Christ's ministry, but it really wasn't when you realize Nephites were running around in another continent and had been enjoying the gift of the Holy Ghost and all the miracles it brings.

Anyways I think your posts in this thread BY FAR have been the most persuasive to me. I dig it

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Re: Names/titles for Deity in the Scriptures applied to more than one person

Post by Zathura »

abijah` wrote: October 18th, 2020, 2:28 am no one contests the fluidity of titles across the three members of the godhead. at least not in my case, thats not what i take issue with. david didnt either, as jesus aptly points out, addressing his descendant as "my lord" (essentially proving the third god's messianic advent, assuming "my LORD" = jesus)

the heresy here is taking the title and introducing some higher fourth or fifth character into the mix and saying sometimes its actually referring to him.
abijah` wrote: October 15th, 2020, 12:55 pmits all baseless, with no established system of when the title refers to adam, versus when it refers to adam's god. which is simply not how the scriptures work.
the god adam worshipped in the garden is our god, the god he prayed to is the one we pray to. to say he isnt, but instead applying the title to some even-higher order of deity is baseless, its wrong, its a legit heresy. theres zero precedent anywhere in scripture to suggest this is the case.

obviously there are orders and generations extending above the sphere of the three gods with which we have to do. but the idea that we can just insert them into the scriptures under the supposed-ambiguity of the titles to fit the weird constructs of speculating saints years and years ago without any base or precedent for doing so is an idea worthy of every ridicule.

adam-god is disproven by the scriptures, and trying to redefine "God" as equating with personages higher up than the three members of the godhead is baseless, it is false - yet necessary to prop up the false doctrine that the gods of the endowment who oversaw the creation of this world are adam's gods, not ours.

we are to see ourselves respectively as adam & eve. the god who made them is our god, the god of their exile is the god of our exile, the god adam prayed to is the god we pray to. and he is not an author of confusion.

the scriptures should be interpreted on their own terms, rather than through the distorted lens of brigham's broken theology. "but it was joseph's...", no it wasnt - that argument is simply weaker than weak, and im not going to waste my effort on something objectively impossible to prove or disprove.

michael being deity is so much easier explained by him being the third member of the godhead anyway. the endowment explicitly teaches that the world was crafted by michael, under the direction of the higher two. this perfectly corroborates with the scriptures, which say the world was made by god through his "spirit" (michael) who hovered over the chaotic waters. just like how the dove hovered over jesus when he himself arose from the waters, signalling a new era of a fresh new creation in christ, destined to replace the old.

the scriptures say god created the world by his "spirit". the endowment says god created the world by "michael". i say they are both right and are painting precisely the same tapestry in perfect harmony with one another.

that is good theology. that is harmony between the endowment, and all the scriptures in their entirety. brigham's on the other hand categorically denies both the endowment and the scriptures together. he was simply wrong, with a big fat capital W.
🔥🔥🔥
the heresy here is taking the title and introducing some higher fourth or fifth character into the mix and saying sometimes its actually referring to him.
THIS

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Re: Names/titles for Deity in the Scriptures applied to more than one person

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:)

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Re: Names/titles for Deity in the Scriptures applied to more than one person

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“Queen has been ordained by God!”
“Which God? What is the name of your god?” :)
(Start 1:55… https://youtu.be/QhMO5SSmiaA

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