Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

For discussion of liberty, freedom, government and politics.
Post Reply
User avatar
Sarah
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6337

Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Sarah »

Mangus MacLeod wrote: September 8th, 2022, 11:00 am
Sarah wrote: September 8th, 2022, 10:48 am
Mangus MacLeod wrote: September 8th, 2022, 10:31 am I actually agree that it should be all about God, without any Church involvement and/or interference, because they are not one and the same.

Moreover, while most Mormons want to look down their noses from their moralistic high horses, the modern Mormon Church’s track record of 50+% failure rate among monogamous Mormon relationships is hardly some Gold Standard for comparison.

Talk about something that cuts both ways, and to no lesser degree.

So having the Church try to control and micromanage everything has really provided a great track record?

As with all things, the record speaks for itself.
Speaking of marriage failure rate, I listened to one pro-polygamy researcher on YouTube a while back and he said that in the early days of the church, the divorce rate for polygamists was 10% while the mongamous rate was 1%, or something like that. Obviously lots of factors at play back then, but just thought I'd throw that out there.
Fair enough. It was a great big, new experiment.

But today, in 2022, we can compare apples to apples under current modern circumstances, and I would venture to guess that the current failure rate of polygamous relationships is no higher than the failure rate of monogamous relationships in the Church. The track record does not provide anyone with any moral high ground to look down the nose from.
If there is any attitude of moral high ground from the church in general, it comes from the belief that God wasn't going to protect the church if they kept on with polygyny. It's from the belief that the only one with the authority to authorize plural marriages comes from the President of the church, and he decided way back when to stop the practice, and the others have decided the same. All other plural marriages are unauthorized and will not be legal in Heaven until the work is performed under the correct authority of the Priesthood.

User avatar
Mangus MacLeod
captain of 100
Posts: 184

Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Mangus MacLeod »

Yes, that is the accepted narrative, whether God had anything to do with any change of policy and/ or practice or not. And there does not appear to be any evidence of a a revelatory basis that He did. So, as with so many things, at the end of the day, what we have is mortal men relying on the arm of flesh, with little evidence to the contrary.

User avatar
Sarah
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6337

Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Sarah »

Mangus MacLeod wrote: September 8th, 2022, 11:22 am Yes, that is the accepted narrative, whether God had anything to do with any change of policy and/ or practice or not. And there does not appear to be any evidence of a a revelatory basis that He did. So, as with so many things, at the end of the day, what we have is mortal men relying on the arm of flesh, with little evidence to the contrary.
No evidence? How about WW's testimony of what the Lord told him and showed him?
I have to run out now, but perhaps I should post his words when I return.

User avatar
Jamescm
captain of 100
Posts: 441

Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Jamescm »

Wait, where is this? Is there some website that specializes in those desiring these relationships, or are these picked from an otherwise "normal" meetingplace?

User avatar
Mangus MacLeod
captain of 100
Posts: 184

Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Mangus MacLeod »

Jamescm wrote: September 8th, 2022, 11:38 am Wait, where is this? Is there some website that specializes in those desiring these relationships, or are these picked from an otherwise "normal" meetingplace?
What's your guess/conclusion?

Why would married hetero women be "seeking" other women on behalf of their would-be plural marriage "couple" in an otherwise "normal" meetingplace? Doesn't seem like very fertile ground for such activity.

User avatar
Jamescm
captain of 100
Posts: 441

Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Jamescm »

Some of the things I hear about people seeking on dating sites now are of such a nature that I wouldn't have put it out of the realm of possibility.

User avatar
gruden2.0
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1373

Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by gruden2.0 »

Mangus MacLeod wrote: September 8th, 2022, 8:39 am There are several other places where I could have picked up this conversation, including the thread that I started a few months ago about the undeniable negative biases of the LDS Church and the vast majority of its members, towards plural marriage.

And I noticed the thread about "Women and Polygamy" in the Sisters' section, which doesn't seem to be gaining much traction, as often seems to be the case with threads in that section.

And, I could have used the Railroad thread, perhaps, but it doesn't seem like a great fit there, either, and last time I did that, with my story about helping a panhandler, the discussion ended up spinning so far out of control, that I can't wish anything like for that thread again.
Decided to stir the pot with a polygamy thread? I'm sure it will spiral out of control if people still have interesting in posting on the subject. The mods keep deleting my posts on polygamy so there isn't much point for me.

Anyway, my wife descended from a Nauvoo apostle's 5th wife, she despised him and rarely saw him, usually only when he stopped by to procreate.

Isaiah says the women will bring back polygamy. If some women are desperate for good men now, it will be much more the case in the near future when there are few men left.

User avatar
Mangus MacLeod
captain of 100
Posts: 184

Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Mangus MacLeod »

Anyway, my wife descended from a Nauvoo apostle's 5th wife, she despised him and rarely saw him, usually only when he stopped by to procreate.
The reality is, there are dozens, no make that hundreds, thousands and even tens of thousands of monogamous husbands who their wives feel the same way about. And this is especially true of some of the very hardest working men. Their wives often despise them, feel like they rarely see them, and often feel like the only thing he's interested in when he is around is having sex (not always procreating). That "story" is just as true and applicable today in modern monogamous Mormon culture as it ever was.
Sarah wrote: September 8th, 2022, 11:28 am
Mangus MacLeod wrote: September 8th, 2022, 11:22 am Yes, that is the accepted narrative, whether God had anything to do with any change of policy and/ or practice or not. And there does not appear to be any evidence of a a revelatory basis that He did. So, as with so many things, at the end of the day, what we have is mortal men relying on the arm of flesh, with little evidence to the contrary.
No evidence? How about WW's testimony of what the Lord told him and showed him?
I have to run out now, but perhaps I should post his words when I return.
I assume this is the "evidence" you must be referring to:

https://historyofmormonism.com/2010/03/ ... evelation/
During the period of the extreme and unrelenting prosecutions under the anti-polygamy acts of Congress, President Wilford Woodruff spent much of his time among the churches in Arizona and southern Utah. On January 26, 1880, having retired for some days in the mountains, fasting and praying, he obtained important revelations from the Lord concerning the work of the Twelve Apostles and events which would happen affecting both the Church and the nation. These were submitted to President John Taylor and the Council of the Apostles and were accepted by them as profitable for doctrine, for comfort, for light as to the future, and for encouragement in the work of the ministry. Following is President Woodruff’s account of receiving revelation.

During the month of January, 1880, I was at Sunset, Arizona, with Brother Lot Smith and the brethren with him who were trying to establish a Branch of the United Order at that place. At this time the Government, through its officers, were using every means in its power to enforce the Edmunds-Tucker and anti-polygamy law with the evident intent on the part of the officers to break us up as an organized community. Being away from President Taylor and my Quorum, I felt deeply distressed in mind concerning our conditions as a people. While thus exercised I went into “the Wilderness”, a region of country called by this name, situated about forty miles west of Sunset, and while there I stopped with two young men who were herding sheep belonging to the people of Sunset. I remained with them ten days, reading the revelations of God as contained in the Doctrine and Covenants, and praying fervently unto the Lord to reveal to me His mind and will concerning Zion. On retiring to bed on the night of the 25th of January, 1880, I found myself wrapt in vision, and the next morning the following revelation was given to me of the Lord which I wrote at the time:

Thus saith the Lord unto my servant, Wilford Woodruff, I have heard thy prayer and will answer thy petition. I will make known unto thee my will concerning the nations who encumber the land of promise and also concerning Zion and her inhabitants.

I have already revealed my will concerning this nation through the mouth of my servant Joseph, who sealed his testimony with his own blood, which testimony has been in force upon all the world from the hour of his death.

What I the Lord have revealed in that testament and decreed upon this nation and upon all the nations of the earth, shall be fulfilled, saith the Lord of hosts. I the Lord have spoken and will be obeyed. My purposes shall be fulfilled upon this nation and no power shall stay My Hand. The hour is at the door when My wrath and indignation will be poured out upon the wicked of the nations.

Their murders, blasphemies, lying, whoredoms, and abominations have come up before my face and before the heavens, and the wrath of my indignation is full.

I have decreed plagues to go forth and waste my enemies, and not many years hence they shall not be left to pollute my heritage.

The devil is ruling over his kingdom and my spirit has no place in the hearts of the rulers of this nation, and the devil stirs them up to defy my power and to make war upon my Saints. Therefore let mine Apostles and mine Elders who are faithful obey my commandments which are already written for their profit and guidance.

Thus saith the Lord unto My servant, John Taylor, and My servant Wilford Woodruff, and My servant, Orson Pratt, and to all the residue of mine Apostles; Have you not gone forth in My name without purse or scrip and declared the Gospel of life and salvation unto this nation and the nations of the earth and warned them of the judgments which are to come as you have been moved upon by the power of the Holy Ghost and the inspiration of the Lord?

You have done this year by year for a whole generation, as men count time. Therefore your garments are clean of the blood of this generation and especially of this nation.

Therefore, as I have said in a former commandment, so I the Lord say again unto My Apostles: Go ye alone by yourselves, whether in heat or in cold and cleanse your feet in water, pure water, it matters not whether it be by the running streams, or in your closets; but leave these testimonies before the Lord and the heavenly hosts; and when you have all done this, then gather yourselves together in your Holy places and clothe yourselves with the robes of the Holy Priesthood and there offer up your prayers according to my Holy Law.

Let him who presides be mouth and kneel at the Holy altar, and there let mine Apostles bring all these testimonies before my face and before the heavenly hosts and before the justified spirits made perfect. And thus saith the Lord unto you, mine apostles, when you bring these testimonies before me, let them be presented by name as far as the Spirit shall present them unto you: The Presidents of the United States, the Supreme Court, the Cabinet, the Senate and Houses of Congress of the United States, the Governors of the States and Territories, the judges and others sent unto you, and all men and persons who have taken any part in persecuting you or bringing distress upon you or your families, or who have sought your lives, or sought to hinder you from keeping my commandments or from enjoying the rights which the constitutional laws of the land guarantee unto you.

And what I the Lord say unto you, mine Apostles, I also say unto my servants- the Seventies, the High Priests, the Elders, the Priests and all my servants who are pure in heart and who have borne testimony unto the nations. Let them go forth and cleanse their feet in pure water and bear testimony of it unto their Father who is in heaven.

And then, saith the Lord unto mine Apostles and mine Elders, when ye do these things with purity of heart, I the Lord will hear your prayers and am bound by oath and covenant to defend you and fight your battles.

As I have said in a former commandment, it is not my will that mine Elders should fight the battles of Zion, for I will fight your battles.

Nevertheless, let no man be afraid to lay down his life for my sake, for he that layeth down his life for my sake shall find it again and have eternal life.

The nation is ripened in iniquity and the cup of the wrath of mine indignation is full and I will not stay my hand in judgments upon this nation or the nations of the earth.

I have decreed wars and judgments upon the wicked and my wrath and indignation are about to be poured out upon them and the wicked and rebellious shall know that I am God.

As I the Lord have spoken so will I fulfill. I will spare none who remain in Babylon, but I will burn them up, saith the Lord of Hosts. As I the Lord have suffered, so will I put all enemies under my feet. For I the Lord utter my word and it shall be obeyed.

And the day of wrath and indignation shall come upon the wicked.

And I say again, woe unto that nation or house or people who seek to hinder my people from obeying the Patriarchal law of Abraham, which leadeth to Celestial Glory, which has been revealed unto my Saints through the mouth of my servant Joseph, for whosoever doeth these things shall be damned, saith the Lord of Hosts, and shall be broken up and wasted away from under heaven by the judgments which I have sent forth, and which shall not return unto me void.

And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed, and with famine and plagues and earthquakes and the thunder of heaven and the vivid lightenings shall this nation and the nations of the earth be made to feel the chastening hand of an Almighty God until they are broken up and destroyed and wasted away from under heaven, and no power can stay my hand. Therefore, let the wicked tremble; let them that blaspheme my name hold their lips, for destruction will swiftly overtake them.

All that I the Lord have spoken through the mouths of my Prophets and Apostles since the world began, concerning the last dispensation and fullness of times, concerning my Church, which has been called out of the wilderness of darkness and error, concerning the Zion and kingdom of God and concerning Babylon the great, and what I have spoken through the mouth of my servant Joseph, shall all be fulfilled.

And though the heaven and earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall be fulfilled, saith the Lord.

These revelations and testimonies are before you. Let my Saints search the Word of the Lord and treasure up wisdom and be prepared for that which is to come.

As I have decreed, so shall my judgments begin at the House of God.

There are those in my Church who have a name among you who are adulterers and adulteresses, and those who blaspheme my name and those who love and make a lie, and those who revel and drink with the drunken.

If they do not speedily repent of this wickedness and abomination, they should be severed from the ordinances of my house, saith the Lord.

There are many who have need to repent, whose hearts are set upon the things of this world, who aspire to the honors of men and do not honor the Priesthood, nor seek to build up the Kingdom of God as they should. Neither do they learn and comprehend:

That the rights of the Priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

Such should repent and turn unto the Lord, and seek for the Holy Spirit to guide them.

Judgments will begin upon my house, and from thence will they go forth unto the world and the wicked cannot escape.

Blessed are the pure in heart for my blessings await them in this life and eternal life in the world to come.

Thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant and Apostles who dwell in the flesh. Fear ye not your enemies. Let not your hearts be troubled. I am in your midst. I am your advocate with the Father. I have given mine angels charge concerning you. Mine eyes are upon you and the eyes of your Heavenly Father and the Heavenly Hosts and all justified spirits made perfect are watching over you. Your works are manifest before the face of my servants who have sealed their testimony with their blood, and before all my servants of the Apostles whom I have taken unto myself.

The veil is taken from off their faces and they know your works. They await your coming when you have finished your testimony in the flesh. Therefore, be ye faithful until I come. My coming is at the door.

Call upon the Lord in mighty prayer, ask and you shall receive. Whenever you agree as touching anything and ask the Father in my name, it shall be given unto you. Seek diligently to build up Zion and to magnify your high calling and your enemies shall not prevail over you. Zion shall not be moved out of her place. Zion shall prevail against her enemies.

My people shall not be hindered in the building of my temples unto my Holy Name, if they will hearken unto my voice and do as I command them.

The blood of my servants Joseph and Hyrum and of mine Apostles and Elders which has been shed for the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ, cries from the ground for vengeance upon the nation which has shed their blood. But their blood shall speedily be avenged and shall cease to cry unto me, for the hour of God’s judgment is fully come and shall be poured out without measure upon the wicked.

But hearken and hear, O ye Apostles, Elders and people of my Church, to the Word of the Lord concerning you, that for all the blessing that I will pour out upon you and the inhabitants of Zion and the judgments and destruction upon the wicked, I will be inquired of by you to ask the Father in my name to do and to perform these things for you as I told all the House of Israel by my servant Moses, that they should ask at my hand for all those blessings which I the Lord have promised unto Israel in the latter days.

And as I the Lord ordained mine Apostles who were with me in my ministry and promised them that they should sit upon twelve thrones, judging the Twelve Tribes of Israel, so I say unto you mine Apostles, who I have raised up in these last days that I have ordained you to bear record of my name, and of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles first, and then to the House of Israel. I have also ordained you to sit upon thrones and judge the Gentiles and the inhabitants of the earth unto whom you have borne testimony of my name in the day and generation in which you live. Therefore, how great is your calling and responsibility before me. Therefore, gird up the loins of your minds and magnify your calling in the fear of God, and prepare ye for the coming of the Son of Man, which is nigh at the door.

No man knoweth the day nor the hour, but the signs of both heaven and earth indicate His coming, as promised by the mouths of my disciples; the fig tree is leafing and the hour is nigh. Therefore, prepare yourselves, O ye Saints of the Most High God, with oil in your lamps, for blessed is he that watcheth for the coming of the Son of Man.

Again, hear ye the Word of the Lord, O ye mine Apostles whom I have chosen in these last days to bear record of my name and lead my people Israel until the coming of the Son of Man.

I the Lord have raised up unto you my servant John Taylor to preside over you and to be a lawgiver unto my Church. He has mingled his blood with that of the martyred Prophets. Nevertheless, while I have taken my servants Joseph and Hyrum unto myself, I have preserved my servant John Taylor for a wise purpose in me.

I have also taken many others of the Apostles unto myself, for I take whom I will take, and preserve in life whom I will preserve, according to the counsel of mine own will.

And while my servant John Taylor is your President, I wish to ask the rest of my servants of the Apostles the question, although you have one to preside over your Quorum, which is the order of God in all generations, do you not, all of you, hold the apostleship, which is the highest authority ever given to men on earth? You do. Therefore you hold in common the Keys of the Kingdom of God in all the world.

You each of you have the power to unlock the veil of eternity and hold converse with God the Father, and His Son Jesus Christ and to have the ministrations of angels

It is your right, privilege and duty to inquire of the Lord as to His mind and will concerning yourselves and the inhabitants of Zion and their interests.

And whenever any one of you receives the word of the Lord, let it be written and presented in your councils and whatever by united consent you deem wisdom to be presented unto the people, let it be presented by the President, my servant John Taylor, as the word of the Lord. In this way you will uphold him and strengthen his hands, as all the burden should not lie upon one man.

For thus saith the Lord, all mine Apostles should be full of the Holy Ghost, of inspiration and revelation to know the mind and will of God and be prepared for that which is to come. Therefore let mine Apostles keep my commandments and obey my voice and the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.

Fear not, for lo, I am with you until I come and I come quickly. Even so, Amen.
If this is the only revelatory basis for any direction given by God as to what the Church was supposed to do regarding the practice of plural marriage as referred to as "the Patriarchal Law of Abraham, that leadeth to the Celestial Kingdom," what is your interpretation of the Revelation?
Last edited by Mangus MacLeod on September 8th, 2022, 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

EvanLM
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4690

Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by EvanLM »

so is this thread about moral high ground, as you mentioned in a post or about polygamy or about divorce or about what? ramblings are hard to follow. . .

its a modern world where divorce and marriage are not that important or are you just digging at the mormon church?

why would anyone pull their hair out over polygamy? in this day and age

the mormon webpage has stories about transgenders and womens conference has introduced lesbians and got total rage from this forum. In fact, this forum was offended about eubanks being lesbian and went on about it for weeks.

Of course, you could just be pointing out that some things are not sins according to this forum but some are . . .

people change their views on this forum all the time and contradict what they said a month ago. . . I 'm just trying to keep up

User avatar
Sarah
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6337

Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Sarah »

Mangus MacLeod wrote: September 8th, 2022, 2:38 pm
Sarah wrote: September 8th, 2022, 11:28 am
Mangus MacLeod wrote: September 8th, 2022, 11:22 am Yes, that is the accepted narrative, whether God had anything to do with any change of policy and/ or practice or not. And there does not appear to be any evidence of a a revelatory basis that He did. So, as with so many things, at the end of the day, what we have is mortal men relying on the arm of flesh, with little evidence to the contrary.
No evidence? How about WW's testimony of what the Lord told him and showed him?
I have to run out now, but perhaps I should post his words when I return.
I assume this is the "evidence" you must be referring to:

https://historyofmormonism.com/2010/03/ ... evelation/
During the period of the extreme and unrelenting prosecutions under the anti-polygamy acts of Congress, President Wilford Woodruff spent much of his time among the churches in Arizona and southern Utah. On January 26, 1880, having retired for some days in the mountains, fasting and praying, he obtained important revelations from the Lord concerning the work of the Twelve Apostles and events which would happen affecting both the Church and the nation. These were submitted to President John Taylor and the Council of the Apostles and were accepted by them as profitable for doctrine, for comfort, for light as to the future, and for encouragement in the work of the ministry. Following is President Woodruff’s account of receiving revelation.

During the month of January, 1880, I was at Sunset, Arizona, with Brother Lot Smith and the brethren with him who were trying to establish a Branch of the United Order at that place. At this time the Government, through its officers, were using every means in its power to enforce the Edmunds-Tucker and anti-polygamy law with the evident intent on the part of the officers to break us up as an organized community. Being away from President Taylor and my Quorum, I felt deeply distressed in mind concerning our conditions as a people. While thus exercised I went into “the Wilderness”, a region of country called by this name, situated about forty miles west of Sunset, and while there I stopped with two young men who were herding sheep belonging to the people of Sunset. I remained with them ten days, reading the revelations of God as contained in the Doctrine and Covenants, and praying fervently unto the Lord to reveal to me His mind and will concerning Zion. On retiring to bed on the night of the 25th of January, 1880, I found myself wrapt in vision, and the next morning the following revelation was given to me of the Lord which I wrote at the time:

Thus saith the Lord unto my servant, Wilford Woodruff, I have heard thy prayer and will answer thy petition. I will make known unto thee my will concerning the nations who encumber the land of promise and also concerning Zion and her inhabitants.

I have already revealed my will concerning this nation through the mouth of my servant Joseph, who sealed his testimony with his own blood, which testimony has been in force upon all the world from the hour of his death.

What I the Lord have revealed in that testament and decreed upon this nation and upon all the nations of the earth, shall be fulfilled, saith the Lord of hosts. I the Lord have spoken and will be obeyed. My purposes shall be fulfilled upon this nation and no power shall stay My Hand. The hour is at the door when My wrath and indignation will be poured out upon the wicked of the nations.

Their murders, blasphemies, lying, whoredoms, and abominations have come up before my face and before the heavens, and the wrath of my indignation is full.

I have decreed plagues to go forth and waste my enemies, and not many years hence they shall not be left to pollute my heritage.

The devil is ruling over his kingdom and my spirit has no place in the hearts of the rulers of this nation, and the devil stirs them up to defy my power and to make war upon my Saints. Therefore let mine Apostles and mine Elders who are faithful obey my commandments which are already written for their profit and guidance.

Thus saith the Lord unto My servant, John Taylor, and My servant Wilford Woodruff, and My servant, Orson Pratt, and to all the residue of mine Apostles; Have you not gone forth in My name without purse or scrip and declared the Gospel of life and salvation unto this nation and the nations of the earth and warned them of the judgments which are to come as you have been moved upon by the power of the Holy Ghost and the inspiration of the Lord?

You have done this year by year for a whole generation, as men count time. Therefore your garments are clean of the blood of this generation and especially of this nation.

Therefore, as I have said in a former commandment, so I the Lord say again unto My Apostles: Go ye alone by yourselves, whether in heat or in cold and cleanse your feet in water, pure water, it matters not whether it be by the running streams, or in your closets; but leave these testimonies before the Lord and the heavenly hosts; and when you have all done this, then gather yourselves together in your Holy places and clothe yourselves with the robes of the Holy Priesthood and there offer up your prayers according to my Holy Law.

Let him who presides be mouth and kneel at the Holy altar, and there let mine Apostles bring all these testimonies before my face and before the heavenly hosts and before the justified spirits made perfect. And thus saith the Lord unto you, mine apostles, when you bring these testimonies before me, let them be presented by name as far as the Spirit shall present them unto you: The Presidents of the United States, the Supreme Court, the Cabinet, the Senate and Houses of Congress of the United States, the Governors of the States and Territories, the judges and others sent unto you, and all men and persons who have taken any part in persecuting you or bringing distress upon you or your families, or who have sought your lives, or sought to hinder you from keeping my commandments or from enjoying the rights which the constitutional laws of the land guarantee unto you.

And what I the Lord say unto you, mine Apostles, I also say unto my servants- the Seventies, the High Priests, the Elders, the Priests and all my servants who are pure in heart and who have borne testimony unto the nations. Let them go forth and cleanse their feet in pure water and bear testimony of it unto their Father who is in heaven.

And then, saith the Lord unto mine Apostles and mine Elders, when ye do these things with purity of heart, I the Lord will hear your prayers and am bound by oath and covenant to defend you and fight your battles.

As I have said in a former commandment, it is not my will that mine Elders should fight the battles of Zion, for I will fight your battles.

Nevertheless, let no man be afraid to lay down his life for my sake, for he that layeth down his life for my sake shall find it again and have eternal life.

The nation is ripened in iniquity and the cup of the wrath of mine indignation is full and I will not stay my hand in judgments upon this nation or the nations of the earth.

I have decreed wars and judgments upon the wicked and my wrath and indignation are about to be poured out upon them and the wicked and rebellious shall know that I am God.

As I the Lord have spoken so will I fulfill. I will spare none who remain in Babylon, but I will burn them up, saith the Lord of Hosts. As I the Lord have suffered, so will I put all enemies under my feet. For I the Lord utter my word and it shall be obeyed.

And the day of wrath and indignation shall come upon the wicked.

And I say again, woe unto that nation or house or people who seek to hinder my people from obeying the Patriarchal law of Abraham, which leadeth to Celestial Glory, which has been revealed unto my Saints through the mouth of my servant Joseph, for whosoever doeth these things shall be damned, saith the Lord of Hosts, and shall be broken up and wasted away from under heaven by the judgments which I have sent forth, and which shall not return unto me void.

And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed, and with famine and plagues and earthquakes and the thunder of heaven and the vivid lightenings shall this nation and the nations of the earth be made to feel the chastening hand of an Almighty God until they are broken up and destroyed and wasted away from under heaven, and no power can stay my hand. Therefore, let the wicked tremble; let them that blaspheme my name hold their lips, for destruction will swiftly overtake them.

All that I the Lord have spoken through the mouths of my Prophets and Apostles since the world began, concerning the last dispensation and fullness of times, concerning my Church, which has been called out of the wilderness of darkness and error, concerning the Zion and kingdom of God and concerning Babylon the great, and what I have spoken through the mouth of my servant Joseph, shall all be fulfilled.

And though the heaven and earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall be fulfilled, saith the Lord.

These revelations and testimonies are before you. Let my Saints search the Word of the Lord and treasure up wisdom and be prepared for that which is to come.

As I have decreed, so shall my judgments begin at the House of God.

There are those in my Church who have a name among you who are adulterers and adulteresses, and those who blaspheme my name and those who love and make a lie, and those who revel and drink with the drunken.

If they do not speedily repent of this wickedness and abomination, they should be severed from the ordinances of my house, saith the Lord.

There are many who have need to repent, whose hearts are set upon the things of this world, who aspire to the honors of men and do not honor the Priesthood, nor seek to build up the Kingdom of God as they should. Neither do they learn and comprehend:

That the rights of the Priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

Such should repent and turn unto the Lord, and seek for the Holy Spirit to guide them.

Judgments will begin upon my house, and from thence will they go forth unto the world and the wicked cannot escape.

Blessed are the pure in heart for my blessings await them in this life and eternal life in the world to come.

Thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant and Apostles who dwell in the flesh. Fear ye not your enemies. Let not your hearts be troubled. I am in your midst. I am your advocate with the Father. I have given mine angels charge concerning you. Mine eyes are upon you and the eyes of your Heavenly Father and the Heavenly Hosts and all justified spirits made perfect are watching over you. Your works are manifest before the face of my servants who have sealed their testimony with their blood, and before all my servants of the Apostles whom I have taken unto myself.

The veil is taken from off their faces and they know your works. They await your coming when you have finished your testimony in the flesh. Therefore, be ye faithful until I come. My coming is at the door.

Call upon the Lord in mighty prayer, ask and you shall receive. Whenever you agree as touching anything and ask the Father in my name, it shall be given unto you. Seek diligently to build up Zion and to magnify your high calling and your enemies shall not prevail over you. Zion shall not be moved out of her place. Zion shall prevail against her enemies.

My people shall not be hindered in the building of my temples unto my Holy Name, if they will hearken unto my voice and do as I command them.

The blood of my servants Joseph and Hyrum and of mine Apostles and Elders which has been shed for the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ, cries from the ground for vengeance upon the nation which has shed their blood. But their blood shall speedily be avenged and shall cease to cry unto me, for the hour of God’s judgment is fully come and shall be poured out without measure upon the wicked.

But hearken and hear, O ye Apostles, Elders and people of my Church, to the Word of the Lord concerning you, that for all the blessing that I will pour out upon you and the inhabitants of Zion and the judgments and destruction upon the wicked, I will be inquired of by you to ask the Father in my name to do and to perform these things for you as I told all the House of Israel by my servant Moses, that they should ask at my hand for all those blessings which I the Lord have promised unto Israel in the latter days.

And as I the Lord ordained mine Apostles who were with me in my ministry and promised them that they should sit upon twelve thrones, judging the Twelve Tribes of Israel, so I say unto you mine Apostles, who I have raised up in these last days that I have ordained you to bear record of my name, and of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles first, and then to the House of Israel. I have also ordained you to sit upon thrones and judge the Gentiles and the inhabitants of the earth unto whom you have borne testimony of my name in the day and generation in which you live. Therefore, how great is your calling and responsibility before me. Therefore, gird up the loins of your minds and magnify your calling in the fear of God, and prepare ye for the coming of the Son of Man, which is nigh at the door.

No man knoweth the day nor the hour, but the signs of both heaven and earth indicate His coming, as promised by the mouths of my disciples; the fig tree is leafing and the hour is nigh. Therefore, prepare yourselves, O ye Saints of the Most High God, with oil in your lamps, for blessed is he that watcheth for the coming of the Son of Man.

Again, hear ye the Word of the Lord, O ye mine Apostles whom I have chosen in these last days to bear record of my name and lead my people Israel until the coming of the Son of Man.

I the Lord have raised up unto you my servant John Taylor to preside over you and to be a lawgiver unto my Church. He has mingled his blood with that of the martyred Prophets. Nevertheless, while I have taken my servants Joseph and Hyrum unto myself, I have preserved my servant John Taylor for a wise purpose in me.

I have also taken many others of the Apostles unto myself, for I take whom I will take, and preserve in life whom I will preserve, according to the counsel of mine own will.

And while my servant John Taylor is your President, I wish to ask the rest of my servants of the Apostles the question, although you have one to preside over your Quorum, which is the order of God in all generations, do you not, all of you, hold the apostleship, which is the highest authority ever given to men on earth? You do. Therefore you hold in common the Keys of the Kingdom of God in all the world.

You each of you have the power to unlock the veil of eternity and hold converse with God the Father, and His Son Jesus Christ and to have the ministrations of angels

It is your right, privilege and duty to inquire of the Lord as to His mind and will concerning yourselves and the inhabitants of Zion and their interests.

And whenever any one of you receives the word of the Lord, let it be written and presented in your councils and whatever by united consent you deem wisdom to be presented unto the people, let it be presented by the President, my servant John Taylor, as the word of the Lord. In this way you will uphold him and strengthen his hands, as all the burden should not lie upon one man.

For thus saith the Lord, all mine Apostles should be full of the Holy Ghost, of inspiration and revelation to know the mind and will of God and be prepared for that which is to come. Therefore let mine Apostles keep my commandments and obey my voice and the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.

Fear not, for lo, I am with you until I come and I come quickly. Even so, Amen.
If this is the only revelatory basis for any direction given by God as to what the Church was supposed to do regarding the practice of plural marriage as referred to as "the Patriarchal Law of Abraham, that leadeth to the Celestial Kingdom," what is your interpretation of the Revelation?
While that's a great revelation, that's not what I was thinking of. I will explain my thoughts on that revelation in another post, but these are the words of Woodruff that I was thinking of:

"Oct 25 1891
I made the following remarks. I wish to make the following remarks upon the principle of revelation. Some had thought that revelation had ceased, but this is not the case the Lord is with us and gives us revelation. But I will say for myself that I wish to avoid saying, "Thus saith the Lord," as far as I can when I give the will of the Lord to the people. In the days of Joseph Smith it was "Thus saith the Lord" almost daily until the revelations embodied in the Doctrine and Covenants had been given. Since that day President Brigham Young, John Taylor, and myself have seldom said the words "Thus saith the Lord" when giving the word of the Lord to the people. In the 68th Section of the Book of D & C we are informed that when men speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost it is the word of the Lord and revelation. I have received a revelation and commandment from the Lord which I had not revealed unto any man which I shall reveal to this assembly and the command of the Lord I shall give to this people which is this: The Lord has revealed unto me that there are many in the Church who feel badly tried about the Manifesto and about the testimony of the Presidency and the Apostles before the Master in Chancery. The Lord has commanded me to put the following question to the saints and to those who will give attention to it shall have the Holy Ghost to be with them to inspire them to answer that question for the meek, and the Lord has promised that the answer will be to all alike. The question is this: Which is the wisest course for the Latter-Day-Saints to pursue, to continue to attempt to practise plural marriage with the laws of the Nation against us and some 60,000,000 of people, and at the cost of confiscation and loss of all the temples and the stopping of all the ordinances therein, both for the living and the dead, and the imprisonment of the First Presidency and Twelve and the leaders, or heads of family in the church, and the confiscation of personal property of the people (all of which of themselves would stop the practice) or after ------ and suffering what we through our adherence to this principle to cease the practice and submit to the law and through doing so have prophets, apostles and fathers at home so they can instruct the people and attend to the duties of the Church. Also leave the temples in the hands of the Saints so they can attend to the ordinances of the Gospel, both for the living and the dead. Now the inspiration of the Lord will reveal to any person which course wisdom would dictate us to pursue. And the Latter-Day-Saints throughout Israel should understand that the First Presidency of the Church and the Twelve Apostles are led and guided by the inspiration of the Lord, and the Lord will not permit me nor any other man to lead the people astray.

The Lord showed me by vision and revelation exactly what would take place if we did not stop this practice. IF we had not stopped it, you would have had no use for Brother Merrill, for Brother Edelfsen, for Brother Roskelley, for Brother Leishman, or for any of the men in this temple at Logan; for all ordinances would be stopped throughout the land of Zion. Confusion would reign throughout Israel, and many men would be made prisoners. This trouble would have come upon the whole Church, and we should have been compelled to stop the practic. Now, the question is, whether it should be stopped in this manner, or in the way the Lord has manifested to us, and leave our prophets and apostles and fathers free men, and the temples in the hands of the people, so that the dead may be redeemed? A large number have already been delivered fro the prison house in the spirit world by this people, and shall the work go on or stop? This is the question I lay before the Latter-day Saints. You have to judge for yourselves. I want you to you that that is exactly the condition we as a people would have been in had we not taken the course we have” (Wilford Woodruff, The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, p. 215).

“Yes, I saw by vision and revelation this Temple in the hands of the wicked. I saw our city in the hands of the wicked. I saw every temple in these valleys in the hands of the wicked. I saw great destruction among the people. All these things would have come to pass, as God Almighty lives, had not that Manifesto been given. Therefore, the Son of God felt disposed to have that thing presented to the Church and to the world for purposes in his own mind. The Lord had decreed the establishment of Zion. He had decreed the finishing of this temple. He had decreed that the salvation of the living and the dead should be given in these valleys of the mountains. And Almighty God decreed that the Devil should not thwart it. If you can understand that, that is a key to it” (Wilford Woodruff, The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, p. 218).

User avatar
Mangus MacLeod
captain of 100
Posts: 184

Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Mangus MacLeod »

EvanLM wrote: September 8th, 2022, 3:29 pm so is this thread about moral high ground, as you mentioned in a post or about polygamy or about divorce or about what? ramblings are hard to follow. . .

its a modern world where divorce and marriage are not that important or are you just digging at the mormon church?

why would anyone pull their hair out over polygamy? in this day and age

the mormon webpage has stories about transgenders and womens conference has introduced lesbians and got total rage from this forum. In fact, this forum was offended about eubanks being lesbian and went on about it for weeks.

Of course, you could just be pointing out that some things are not sins according to this forum but some are . . .

people change their views on this forum all the time and contradict what they said a month ago. . . I 'm just trying to keep up
I don't believe there is anything to discuss between us.

User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7798
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Contact:

Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Jamescm wrote: September 8th, 2022, 11:38 am Wait, where is this? Is there some website that specializes in those desiring these relationships, or are these picked from an otherwise "normal" meetingplace?
Wait... you haven't heard? Just go check out Tinder. Plenty of polyamorous relationships out there. :)

User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7798
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Contact:

Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

gruden2.0 wrote: September 8th, 2022, 2:17 pm
Mangus MacLeod wrote: September 8th, 2022, 8:39 am There are several other places where I could have picked up this conversation, including the thread that I started a few months ago about the undeniable negative biases of the LDS Church and the vast majority of its members, towards plural marriage.

And I noticed the thread about "Women and Polygamy" in the Sisters' section, which doesn't seem to be gaining much traction, as often seems to be the case with threads in that section.

And, I could have used the Railroad thread, perhaps, but it doesn't seem like a great fit there, either, and last time I did that, with my story about helping a panhandler, the discussion ended up spinning so far out of control, that I can't wish anything like for that thread again.
Decided to stir the pot with a polygamy thread? I'm sure it will spiral out of control if people still have interesting in posting on the subject. The mods keep deleting my posts on polygamy so there isn't much point for me.

Anyway, my wife descended from a Nauvoo apostle's 5th wife, she despised him and rarely saw him, usually only when he stopped by to procreate.

Isaiah says the women will bring back polygamy. If some women are desperate for good men now, it will be much more the case in the near future when there are few men left.
Isaiah wasn't talking about polygamy, my friend. Think more symbolic. Christ is the "man" in those verses btw.

User avatar
Mangus MacLeod
captain of 100
Posts: 184

Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Mangus MacLeod »

Sarah wrote: September 8th, 2022, 3:49 pm
Mangus MacLeod wrote: September 8th, 2022, 2:38 pm
Sarah wrote: September 8th, 2022, 11:28 am
Mangus MacLeod wrote: September 8th, 2022, 11:22 am Yes, that is the accepted narrative, whether God had anything to do with any change of policy and/ or practice or not. And there does not appear to be any evidence of a a revelatory basis that He did. So, as with so many things, at the end of the day, what we have is mortal men relying on the arm of flesh, with little evidence to the contrary.
No evidence? How about WW's testimony of what the Lord told him and showed him?
I have to run out now, but perhaps I should post his words when I return.
I assume this is the "evidence" you must be referring to:

https://historyofmormonism.com/2010/03/ ... evelation/
During the period of the extreme and unrelenting prosecutions under the anti-polygamy acts of Congress, President Wilford Woodruff spent much of his time among the churches in Arizona and southern Utah. On January 26, 1880, having retired for some days in the mountains, fasting and praying, he obtained important revelations from the Lord concerning the work of the Twelve Apostles and events which would happen affecting both the Church and the nation. These were submitted to President John Taylor and the Council of the Apostles and were accepted by them as profitable for doctrine, for comfort, for light as to the future, and for encouragement in the work of the ministry. Following is President Woodruff’s account of receiving revelation.

During the month of January, 1880, I was at Sunset, Arizona, with Brother Lot Smith and the brethren with him who were trying to establish a Branch of the United Order at that place. At this time the Government, through its officers, were using every means in its power to enforce the Edmunds-Tucker and anti-polygamy law with the evident intent on the part of the officers to break us up as an organized community. Being away from President Taylor and my Quorum, I felt deeply distressed in mind concerning our conditions as a people. While thus exercised I went into “the Wilderness”, a region of country called by this name, situated about forty miles west of Sunset, and while there I stopped with two young men who were herding sheep belonging to the people of Sunset. I remained with them ten days, reading the revelations of God as contained in the Doctrine and Covenants, and praying fervently unto the Lord to reveal to me His mind and will concerning Zion. On retiring to bed on the night of the 25th of January, 1880, I found myself wrapt in vision, and the next morning the following revelation was given to me of the Lord which I wrote at the time:

Thus saith the Lord unto my servant, Wilford Woodruff, I have heard thy prayer and will answer thy petition. I will make known unto thee my will concerning the nations who encumber the land of promise and also concerning Zion and her inhabitants.

I have already revealed my will concerning this nation through the mouth of my servant Joseph, who sealed his testimony with his own blood, which testimony has been in force upon all the world from the hour of his death.

What I the Lord have revealed in that testament and decreed upon this nation and upon all the nations of the earth, shall be fulfilled, saith the Lord of hosts. I the Lord have spoken and will be obeyed. My purposes shall be fulfilled upon this nation and no power shall stay My Hand. The hour is at the door when My wrath and indignation will be poured out upon the wicked of the nations.

Their murders, blasphemies, lying, whoredoms, and abominations have come up before my face and before the heavens, and the wrath of my indignation is full.

I have decreed plagues to go forth and waste my enemies, and not many years hence they shall not be left to pollute my heritage.

The devil is ruling over his kingdom and my spirit has no place in the hearts of the rulers of this nation, and the devil stirs them up to defy my power and to make war upon my Saints. Therefore let mine Apostles and mine Elders who are faithful obey my commandments which are already written for their profit and guidance.

Thus saith the Lord unto My servant, John Taylor, and My servant Wilford Woodruff, and My servant, Orson Pratt, and to all the residue of mine Apostles; Have you not gone forth in My name without purse or scrip and declared the Gospel of life and salvation unto this nation and the nations of the earth and warned them of the judgments which are to come as you have been moved upon by the power of the Holy Ghost and the inspiration of the Lord?

You have done this year by year for a whole generation, as men count time. Therefore your garments are clean of the blood of this generation and especially of this nation.

Therefore, as I have said in a former commandment, so I the Lord say again unto My Apostles: Go ye alone by yourselves, whether in heat or in cold and cleanse your feet in water, pure water, it matters not whether it be by the running streams, or in your closets; but leave these testimonies before the Lord and the heavenly hosts; and when you have all done this, then gather yourselves together in your Holy places and clothe yourselves with the robes of the Holy Priesthood and there offer up your prayers according to my Holy Law.

Let him who presides be mouth and kneel at the Holy altar, and there let mine Apostles bring all these testimonies before my face and before the heavenly hosts and before the justified spirits made perfect. And thus saith the Lord unto you, mine apostles, when you bring these testimonies before me, let them be presented by name as far as the Spirit shall present them unto you: The Presidents of the United States, the Supreme Court, the Cabinet, the Senate and Houses of Congress of the United States, the Governors of the States and Territories, the judges and others sent unto you, and all men and persons who have taken any part in persecuting you or bringing distress upon you or your families, or who have sought your lives, or sought to hinder you from keeping my commandments or from enjoying the rights which the constitutional laws of the land guarantee unto you.

And what I the Lord say unto you, mine Apostles, I also say unto my servants- the Seventies, the High Priests, the Elders, the Priests and all my servants who are pure in heart and who have borne testimony unto the nations. Let them go forth and cleanse their feet in pure water and bear testimony of it unto their Father who is in heaven.

And then, saith the Lord unto mine Apostles and mine Elders, when ye do these things with purity of heart, I the Lord will hear your prayers and am bound by oath and covenant to defend you and fight your battles.

As I have said in a former commandment, it is not my will that mine Elders should fight the battles of Zion, for I will fight your battles.

Nevertheless, let no man be afraid to lay down his life for my sake, for he that layeth down his life for my sake shall find it again and have eternal life.

The nation is ripened in iniquity and the cup of the wrath of mine indignation is full and I will not stay my hand in judgments upon this nation or the nations of the earth.

I have decreed wars and judgments upon the wicked and my wrath and indignation are about to be poured out upon them and the wicked and rebellious shall know that I am God.

As I the Lord have spoken so will I fulfill. I will spare none who remain in Babylon, but I will burn them up, saith the Lord of Hosts. As I the Lord have suffered, so will I put all enemies under my feet. For I the Lord utter my word and it shall be obeyed.

And the day of wrath and indignation shall come upon the wicked.

And I say again, woe unto that nation or house or people who seek to hinder my people from obeying the Patriarchal law of Abraham, which leadeth to Celestial Glory, which has been revealed unto my Saints through the mouth of my servant Joseph, for whosoever doeth these things shall be damned, saith the Lord of Hosts, and shall be broken up and wasted away from under heaven by the judgments which I have sent forth, and which shall not return unto me void.

And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed, and with famine and plagues and earthquakes and the thunder of heaven and the vivid lightenings shall this nation and the nations of the earth be made to feel the chastening hand of an Almighty God until they are broken up and destroyed and wasted away from under heaven, and no power can stay my hand. Therefore, let the wicked tremble; let them that blaspheme my name hold their lips, for destruction will swiftly overtake them.

All that I the Lord have spoken through the mouths of my Prophets and Apostles since the world began, concerning the last dispensation and fullness of times, concerning my Church, which has been called out of the wilderness of darkness and error, concerning the Zion and kingdom of God and concerning Babylon the great, and what I have spoken through the mouth of my servant Joseph, shall all be fulfilled.

And though the heaven and earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall be fulfilled, saith the Lord.

These revelations and testimonies are before you. Let my Saints search the Word of the Lord and treasure up wisdom and be prepared for that which is to come.

As I have decreed, so shall my judgments begin at the House of God.

There are those in my Church who have a name among you who are adulterers and adulteresses, and those who blaspheme my name and those who love and make a lie, and those who revel and drink with the drunken.

If they do not speedily repent of this wickedness and abomination, they should be severed from the ordinances of my house, saith the Lord.

There are many who have need to repent, whose hearts are set upon the things of this world, who aspire to the honors of men and do not honor the Priesthood, nor seek to build up the Kingdom of God as they should. Neither do they learn and comprehend:

That the rights of the Priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

Such should repent and turn unto the Lord, and seek for the Holy Spirit to guide them.

Judgments will begin upon my house, and from thence will they go forth unto the world and the wicked cannot escape.

Blessed are the pure in heart for my blessings await them in this life and eternal life in the world to come.

Thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant and Apostles who dwell in the flesh. Fear ye not your enemies. Let not your hearts be troubled. I am in your midst. I am your advocate with the Father. I have given mine angels charge concerning you. Mine eyes are upon you and the eyes of your Heavenly Father and the Heavenly Hosts and all justified spirits made perfect are watching over you. Your works are manifest before the face of my servants who have sealed their testimony with their blood, and before all my servants of the Apostles whom I have taken unto myself.

The veil is taken from off their faces and they know your works. They await your coming when you have finished your testimony in the flesh. Therefore, be ye faithful until I come. My coming is at the door.

Call upon the Lord in mighty prayer, ask and you shall receive. Whenever you agree as touching anything and ask the Father in my name, it shall be given unto you. Seek diligently to build up Zion and to magnify your high calling and your enemies shall not prevail over you. Zion shall not be moved out of her place. Zion shall prevail against her enemies.

My people shall not be hindered in the building of my temples unto my Holy Name, if they will hearken unto my voice and do as I command them.

The blood of my servants Joseph and Hyrum and of mine Apostles and Elders which has been shed for the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ, cries from the ground for vengeance upon the nation which has shed their blood. But their blood shall speedily be avenged and shall cease to cry unto me, for the hour of God’s judgment is fully come and shall be poured out without measure upon the wicked.

But hearken and hear, O ye Apostles, Elders and people of my Church, to the Word of the Lord concerning you, that for all the blessing that I will pour out upon you and the inhabitants of Zion and the judgments and destruction upon the wicked, I will be inquired of by you to ask the Father in my name to do and to perform these things for you as I told all the House of Israel by my servant Moses, that they should ask at my hand for all those blessings which I the Lord have promised unto Israel in the latter days.

And as I the Lord ordained mine Apostles who were with me in my ministry and promised them that they should sit upon twelve thrones, judging the Twelve Tribes of Israel, so I say unto you mine Apostles, who I have raised up in these last days that I have ordained you to bear record of my name, and of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles first, and then to the House of Israel. I have also ordained you to sit upon thrones and judge the Gentiles and the inhabitants of the earth unto whom you have borne testimony of my name in the day and generation in which you live. Therefore, how great is your calling and responsibility before me. Therefore, gird up the loins of your minds and magnify your calling in the fear of God, and prepare ye for the coming of the Son of Man, which is nigh at the door.

No man knoweth the day nor the hour, but the signs of both heaven and earth indicate His coming, as promised by the mouths of my disciples; the fig tree is leafing and the hour is nigh. Therefore, prepare yourselves, O ye Saints of the Most High God, with oil in your lamps, for blessed is he that watcheth for the coming of the Son of Man.

Again, hear ye the Word of the Lord, O ye mine Apostles whom I have chosen in these last days to bear record of my name and lead my people Israel until the coming of the Son of Man.

I the Lord have raised up unto you my servant John Taylor to preside over you and to be a lawgiver unto my Church. He has mingled his blood with that of the martyred Prophets. Nevertheless, while I have taken my servants Joseph and Hyrum unto myself, I have preserved my servant John Taylor for a wise purpose in me.

I have also taken many others of the Apostles unto myself, for I take whom I will take, and preserve in life whom I will preserve, according to the counsel of mine own will.

And while my servant John Taylor is your President, I wish to ask the rest of my servants of the Apostles the question, although you have one to preside over your Quorum, which is the order of God in all generations, do you not, all of you, hold the apostleship, which is the highest authority ever given to men on earth? You do. Therefore you hold in common the Keys of the Kingdom of God in all the world.

You each of you have the power to unlock the veil of eternity and hold converse with God the Father, and His Son Jesus Christ and to have the ministrations of angels

It is your right, privilege and duty to inquire of the Lord as to His mind and will concerning yourselves and the inhabitants of Zion and their interests.

And whenever any one of you receives the word of the Lord, let it be written and presented in your councils and whatever by united consent you deem wisdom to be presented unto the people, let it be presented by the President, my servant John Taylor, as the word of the Lord. In this way you will uphold him and strengthen his hands, as all the burden should not lie upon one man.

For thus saith the Lord, all mine Apostles should be full of the Holy Ghost, of inspiration and revelation to know the mind and will of God and be prepared for that which is to come. Therefore let mine Apostles keep my commandments and obey my voice and the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.

Fear not, for lo, I am with you until I come and I come quickly. Even so, Amen.
If this is the only revelatory basis for any direction given by God as to what the Church was supposed to do regarding the practice of plural marriage as referred to as "the Patriarchal Law of Abraham, that leadeth to the Celestial Kingdom," what is your interpretation of the Revelation?
While that's a great revelation, that's not what I was thinking of. I will explain my thoughts on that revelation in another post, but these are the words of Woodruff that I was thinking of:

"Oct 25 1891
I made the following remarks. I wish to make the following remarks upon the principle of revelation. Some had thought that revelation had ceased, but this is not the case the Lord is with us and gives us revelation. But I will say for myself that I wish to avoid saying, "Thus saith the Lord," as far as I can when I give the will of the Lord to the people. In the days of Joseph Smith it was "Thus saith the Lord" almost daily until the revelations embodied in the Doctrine and Covenants had been given. Since that day President Brigham Young, John Taylor, and myself have seldom said the words "Thus saith the Lord" when giving the word of the Lord to the people. In the 68th Section of the Book of D & C we are informed that when men speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost it is the word of the Lord and revelation. I have received a revelation and commandment from the Lord which I had not revealed unto any man which I shall reveal to this assembly and the command of the Lord I shall give to this people which is this: The Lord has revealed unto me that there are many in the Church who feel badly tried about the Manifesto and about the testimony of the Presidency and the Apostles before the Master in Chancery. The Lord has commanded me to put the following question to the saints and to those who will give attention to it shall have the Holy Ghost to be with them to inspire them to answer that question for the meek, and the Lord has promised that the answer will be to all alike. The question is this: Which is the wisest course for the Latter-Day-Saints to pursue, to continue to attempt to practise plural marriage with the laws of the Nation against us and some 60,000,000 of people, and at the cost of confiscation and loss of all the temples and the stopping of all the ordinances therein, both for the living and the dead, and the imprisonment of the First Presidency and Twelve and the leaders, or heads of family in the church, and the confiscation of personal property of the people (all of which of themselves would stop the practice) or after ------ and suffering what we through our adherence to this principle to cease the practice and submit to the law and through doing so have prophets, apostles and fathers at home so they can instruct the people and attend to the duties of the Church. Also leave the temples in the hands of the Saints so they can attend to the ordinances of the Gospel, both for the living and the dead. Now the inspiration of the Lord will reveal to any person which course wisdom would dictate us to pursue. And the Latter-Day-Saints throughout Israel should understand that the First Presidency of the Church and the Twelve Apostles are led and guided by the inspiration of the Lord, and the Lord will not permit me nor any other man to lead the people astray.

The Lord showed me by vision and revelation exactly what would take place if we did not stop this practice. IF we had not stopped it, you would have had no use for Brother Merrill, for Brother Edelfsen, for Brother Roskelley, for Brother Leishman, or for any of the men in this temple at Logan; for all ordinances would be stopped throughout the land of Zion. Confusion would reign throughout Israel, and many men would be made prisoners. This trouble would have come upon the whole Church, and we should have been compelled to stop the practic. Now, the question is, whether it should be stopped in this manner, or in the way the Lord has manifested to us, and leave our prophets and apostles and fathers free men, and the temples in the hands of the people, so that the dead may be redeemed? A large number have already been delivered fro the prison house in the spirit world by this people, and shall the work go on or stop? This is the question I lay before the Latter-day Saints. You have to judge for yourselves. I want you to you that that is exactly the condition we as a people would have been in had we not taken the course we have” (Wilford Woodruff, The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, p. 215).

“Yes, I saw by vision and revelation this Temple in the hands of the wicked. I saw our city in the hands of the wicked. I saw every temple in these valleys in the hands of the wicked. I saw great destruction among the people. All these things would have come to pass, as God Almighty lives, had not that Manifesto been given. Therefore, the Son of God felt disposed to have that thing presented to the Church and to the world for purposes in his own mind. The Lord had decreed the establishment of Zion. He had decreed the finishing of this temple. He had decreed that the salvation of the living and the dead should be given in these valleys of the mountains. And Almighty God decreed that the Devil should not thwart it. If you can understand that, that is a key to it” (Wilford Woodruff, The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, p. 218).
Fair enough. I am fully prepared and willing to accept all that. As a matter of political expedience, and in order to go along with the World at that time, including insights into just how sore the trials might become, the Mormon Church discontinued to condone the practice of plural marriage. Ever since then the Church has steadily and continually gone along with the world on just about every front -- now except plural marriage.

At this point, there is not near as much resistance of any kind to plural marriage -- except within the Church. In fact, as I have pointed out, and provided examples, the scope of which most people will not even be capable of fathoming, there seems to be a great re-awakening about plural marriage, and it is women who are driving that re-awakening. So, in light of all that, including the facts that it is no longer illegal, it is becoming more and more socially acceptable, and mostly importantly it is "The Patriarchal Law of Abraham that Leadeth to the Celestial Kingdom," why wouldn't the Church now just shut-up about it, and let that issue be entirely between wives, husbands, and God, without the Church continuing to feel like it has to control and micro-manage every possible thing?

I realize, it has not yet gained enough traction for the Church to lose concern about maintaining its Worldly Image, but it is interesting how out of step with God's own laws the Church is willing to be, even when there is little remaining political expediency in it -- which has got to tell us something.

User avatar
FrankOne
captain of 100
Posts: 981

Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- a Great Reawakening Already Seems to be Happening

Post by FrankOne »

Mangus MacLeod wrote: September 8th, 2022, 8:55 am
briznian wrote: September 8th, 2022, 8:51 am I know of a divorcee who once said, “I would rather share a good man than have a bad man all to myself.”
Actual life experience does make a difference.
I've heard that quote above many times in slightly different words.

At this moment in time, comfort is God and God means comfort. It's all about ease. When a person's sensibilities are challenged, the culprit must be evil. It's just human nature...

I agree on experience being the teacher. As the world changes, viewpoints will change as the fear of starvation overcomes the fear of sharing a man. This world is going to pieces and everything will change dramatically. Experience is coming.

User avatar
FrankOne
captain of 100
Posts: 981

Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by FrankOne »

EvanLM wrote: September 8th, 2022, 3:29 pm

people change their views on this forum all the time and contradict what they said a month ago. . .
yup. and they'll keep changing. It's how we learn.

User avatar
Mangus MacLeod
captain of 100
Posts: 184

Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- a Great Reawakening Already Seems to be Happening

Post by Mangus MacLeod »

FrankOne wrote: September 8th, 2022, 4:26 pm
Mangus MacLeod wrote: September 8th, 2022, 8:55 am
briznian wrote: September 8th, 2022, 8:51 am I know of a divorcee who once said, “I would rather share a good man than have a bad man all to myself.”
Actual life experience does make a difference.
I've heard that quote above many times in slightly different words.

At this moment in time, comfort is God and God means comfort. It's all about ease. When a person's sensibilities are challenged, the culprit must be evil. It's just human nature...

I agree on experience being the teacher. As the world changes, viewpoints will change as the fear of starvation overcomes the fear of sharing a man. This world is going to pieces and everything will change dramatically. Experience is coming.
It's actually pretty amazing how asleep most Mormons are about this. If you follow some of the most active non-Mormon prepper gurus, they will tell you that unlike what they have ever seen before, as things are evolving, it is now women -- often younger, single, urban women -- who are now getting more serious about "prepping" than ever before. And as those thought processes follow their natural course, eventually many of them will still come to realize that under harsh conditions, their chances of safety and survival are a lot better if they are paired with a man. Without being paired with a man, they can and will be much more easily raped, killed and/or simply starve to death. And, some women are smart enough to understand this. The thing is, some of those men who actually do know how to provide and protect, can actually be pretty good at it, and have the capacity to take care of more than one woman, and more than one woman's children. And again, some women are smart enough to understand this.
Last edited by Mangus MacLeod on September 8th, 2022, 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
TheDuke
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2793
Location: Eastern Sodom Suburbs

Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by TheDuke »

Not taking a position but just read on the news that the "gay marriage rights act" before senate makes all kinds of marriages legal (to ensure Clarence Thomas does do something), except a man with more than one wife. I haven't seen the "amendment" about to come out, but FN says it doubles down against polygamy, while pushing every other form of marriage? Seems quizzical does it not?

User avatar
gruden2.0
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1373

Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by gruden2.0 »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: September 8th, 2022, 4:10 pm
gruden2.0 wrote: September 8th, 2022, 2:17 pm
Mangus MacLeod wrote: September 8th, 2022, 8:39 am There are several other places where I could have picked up this conversation, including the thread that I started a few months ago about the undeniable negative biases of the LDS Church and the vast majority of its members, towards plural marriage.

And I noticed the thread about "Women and Polygamy" in the Sisters' section, which doesn't seem to be gaining much traction, as often seems to be the case with threads in that section.

And, I could have used the Railroad thread, perhaps, but it doesn't seem like a great fit there, either, and last time I did that, with my story about helping a panhandler, the discussion ended up spinning so far out of control, that I can't wish anything like for that thread again.
Decided to stir the pot with a polygamy thread? I'm sure it will spiral out of control if people still have interesting in posting on the subject. The mods keep deleting my posts on polygamy so there isn't much point for me.

Anyway, my wife descended from a Nauvoo apostle's 5th wife, she despised him and rarely saw him, usually only when he stopped by to procreate.

Isaiah says the women will bring back polygamy. If some women are desperate for good men now, it will be much more the case in the near future when there are few men left.
Isaiah wasn't talking about polygamy, my friend. Think more symbolic. Christ is the "man" in those verses btw.
Interesting take, but I disagree.

Look at the context: The previous chapter detailed how the women have been shamed and are suffering, a man is more precious than gold.
Isaiah 4:1 wrote: Seven women will take hold of one man in that day, and say, we will eat our own food, wear our own clothes, only let us be called by your name - take away our reproach!
Gileadi's translation makes it pretty clear. "Lay hold" is telling you exactly what they're doing. So many men will perish in the violence and wars there will be only 1 man for every 7 women left.

If Isaiah was talking about the Lord, then you would see "seven women will take hold of the Lord", which wouldn't make much sense.

EvanLM
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4690

Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by EvanLM »

cyn·i·cal
[ˈsinək(ə)l]
ADJECTIVE
believing that people are motivated purely by self-interest; distrustful of human sincerity or integrity:

EvanLM
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4690

Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by EvanLM »

Mangus MacLeod wrote: September 8th, 2022, 4:14 pm
Sarah wrote: September 8th, 2022, 3:49 pm
Mangus MacLeod wrote: September 8th, 2022, 2:38 pm
Sarah wrote: September 8th, 2022, 11:28 am

No evidence? How about WW's testimony of what the Lord told him and showed him?
I have to run out now, but perhaps I should post his words when I return.
I assume this is the "evidence" you must be referring to:

https://historyofmormonism.com/2010/03/ ... evelation/
During the period of the extreme and unrelenting prosecutions under the anti-polygamy acts of Congress, President Wilford Woodruff spent much of his time among the churches in Arizona and southern Utah. On January 26, 1880, having retired for some days in the mountains, fasting and praying, he obtained important revelations from the Lord concerning the work of the Twelve Apostles and events which would happen affecting both the Church and the nation. These were submitted to President John Taylor and the Council of the Apostles and were accepted by them as profitable for doctrine, for comfort, for light as to the future, and for encouragement in the work of the ministry. Following is President Woodruff’s account of receiving revelation.

During the month of January, 1880, I was at Sunset, Arizona, with Brother Lot Smith and the brethren with him who were trying to establish a Branch of the United Order at that place. At this time the Government, through its officers, were using every means in its power to enforce the Edmunds-Tucker and anti-polygamy law with the evident intent on the part of the officers to break us up as an organized community. Being away from President Taylor and my Quorum, I felt deeply distressed in mind concerning our conditions as a people. While thus exercised I went into “the Wilderness”, a region of country called by this name, situated about forty miles west of Sunset, and while there I stopped with two young men who were herding sheep belonging to the people of Sunset. I remained with them ten days, reading the revelations of God as contained in the Doctrine and Covenants, and praying fervently unto the Lord to reveal to me His mind and will concerning Zion. On retiring to bed on the night of the 25th of January, 1880, I found myself wrapt in vision, and the next morning the following revelation was given to me of the Lord which I wrote at the time:

Thus saith the Lord unto my servant, Wilford Woodruff, I have heard thy prayer and will answer thy petition. I will make known unto thee my will concerning the nations who encumber the land of promise and also concerning Zion and her inhabitants.

I have already revealed my will concerning this nation through the mouth of my servant Joseph, who sealed his testimony with his own blood, which testimony has been in force upon all the world from the hour of his death.

What I the Lord have revealed in that testament and decreed upon this nation and upon all the nations of the earth, shall be fulfilled, saith the Lord of hosts. I the Lord have spoken and will be obeyed. My purposes shall be fulfilled upon this nation and no power shall stay My Hand. The hour is at the door when My wrath and indignation will be poured out upon the wicked of the nations.

Their murders, blasphemies, lying, whoredoms, and abominations have come up before my face and before the heavens, and the wrath of my indignation is full.

I have decreed plagues to go forth and waste my enemies, and not many years hence they shall not be left to pollute my heritage.

The devil is ruling over his kingdom and my spirit has no place in the hearts of the rulers of this nation, and the devil stirs them up to defy my power and to make war upon my Saints. Therefore let mine Apostles and mine Elders who are faithful obey my commandments which are already written for their profit and guidance.

Thus saith the Lord unto My servant, John Taylor, and My servant Wilford Woodruff, and My servant, Orson Pratt, and to all the residue of mine Apostles; Have you not gone forth in My name without purse or scrip and declared the Gospel of life and salvation unto this nation and the nations of the earth and warned them of the judgments which are to come as you have been moved upon by the power of the Holy Ghost and the inspiration of the Lord?

You have done this year by year for a whole generation, as men count time. Therefore your garments are clean of the blood of this generation and especially of this nation.

Therefore, as I have said in a former commandment, so I the Lord say again unto My Apostles: Go ye alone by yourselves, whether in heat or in cold and cleanse your feet in water, pure water, it matters not whether it be by the running streams, or in your closets; but leave these testimonies before the Lord and the heavenly hosts; and when you have all done this, then gather yourselves together in your Holy places and clothe yourselves with the robes of the Holy Priesthood and there offer up your prayers according to my Holy Law.

Let him who presides be mouth and kneel at the Holy altar, and there let mine Apostles bring all these testimonies before my face and before the heavenly hosts and before the justified spirits made perfect. And thus saith the Lord unto you, mine apostles, when you bring these testimonies before me, let them be presented by name as far as the Spirit shall present them unto you: The Presidents of the United States, the Supreme Court, the Cabinet, the Senate and Houses of Congress of the United States, the Governors of the States and Territories, the judges and others sent unto you, and all men and persons who have taken any part in persecuting you or bringing distress upon you or your families, or who have sought your lives, or sought to hinder you from keeping my commandments or from enjoying the rights which the constitutional laws of the land guarantee unto you.

And what I the Lord say unto you, mine Apostles, I also say unto my servants- the Seventies, the High Priests, the Elders, the Priests and all my servants who are pure in heart and who have borne testimony unto the nations. Let them go forth and cleanse their feet in pure water and bear testimony of it unto their Father who is in heaven.

And then, saith the Lord unto mine Apostles and mine Elders, when ye do these things with purity of heart, I the Lord will hear your prayers and am bound by oath and covenant to defend you and fight your battles.

As I have said in a former commandment, it is not my will that mine Elders should fight the battles of Zion, for I will fight your battles.

Nevertheless, let no man be afraid to lay down his life for my sake, for he that layeth down his life for my sake shall find it again and have eternal life.

The nation is ripened in iniquity and the cup of the wrath of mine indignation is full and I will not stay my hand in judgments upon this nation or the nations of the earth.

I have decreed wars and judgments upon the wicked and my wrath and indignation are about to be poured out upon them and the wicked and rebellious shall know that I am God.

As I the Lord have spoken so will I fulfill. I will spare none who remain in Babylon, but I will burn them up, saith the Lord of Hosts. As I the Lord have suffered, so will I put all enemies under my feet. For I the Lord utter my word and it shall be obeyed.

And the day of wrath and indignation shall come upon the wicked.

And I say again, woe unto that nation or house or people who seek to hinder my people from obeying the Patriarchal law of Abraham, which leadeth to Celestial Glory, which has been revealed unto my Saints through the mouth of my servant Joseph, for whosoever doeth these things shall be damned, saith the Lord of Hosts, and shall be broken up and wasted away from under heaven by the judgments which I have sent forth, and which shall not return unto me void.

And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed, and with famine and plagues and earthquakes and the thunder of heaven and the vivid lightenings shall this nation and the nations of the earth be made to feel the chastening hand of an Almighty God until they are broken up and destroyed and wasted away from under heaven, and no power can stay my hand. Therefore, let the wicked tremble; let them that blaspheme my name hold their lips, for destruction will swiftly overtake them.

All that I the Lord have spoken through the mouths of my Prophets and Apostles since the world began, concerning the last dispensation and fullness of times, concerning my Church, which has been called out of the wilderness of darkness and error, concerning the Zion and kingdom of God and concerning Babylon the great, and what I have spoken through the mouth of my servant Joseph, shall all be fulfilled.

And though the heaven and earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall be fulfilled, saith the Lord.

These revelations and testimonies are before you. Let my Saints search the Word of the Lord and treasure up wisdom and be prepared for that which is to come.

As I have decreed, so shall my judgments begin at the House of God.

There are those in my Church who have a name among you who are adulterers and adulteresses, and those who blaspheme my name and those who love and make a lie, and those who revel and drink with the drunken.

If they do not speedily repent of this wickedness and abomination, they should be severed from the ordinances of my house, saith the Lord.

There are many who have need to repent, whose hearts are set upon the things of this world, who aspire to the honors of men and do not honor the Priesthood, nor seek to build up the Kingdom of God as they should. Neither do they learn and comprehend:

That the rights of the Priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

Such should repent and turn unto the Lord, and seek for the Holy Spirit to guide them.

Judgments will begin upon my house, and from thence will they go forth unto the world and the wicked cannot escape.

Blessed are the pure in heart for my blessings await them in this life and eternal life in the world to come.

Thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant and Apostles who dwell in the flesh. Fear ye not your enemies. Let not your hearts be troubled. I am in your midst. I am your advocate with the Father. I have given mine angels charge concerning you. Mine eyes are upon you and the eyes of your Heavenly Father and the Heavenly Hosts and all justified spirits made perfect are watching over you. Your works are manifest before the face of my servants who have sealed their testimony with their blood, and before all my servants of the Apostles whom I have taken unto myself.

The veil is taken from off their faces and they know your works. They await your coming when you have finished your testimony in the flesh. Therefore, be ye faithful until I come. My coming is at the door.

Call upon the Lord in mighty prayer, ask and you shall receive. Whenever you agree as touching anything and ask the Father in my name, it shall be given unto you. Seek diligently to build up Zion and to magnify your high calling and your enemies shall not prevail over you. Zion shall not be moved out of her place. Zion shall prevail against her enemies.

My people shall not be hindered in the building of my temples unto my Holy Name, if they will hearken unto my voice and do as I command them.

The blood of my servants Joseph and Hyrum and of mine Apostles and Elders which has been shed for the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ, cries from the ground for vengeance upon the nation which has shed their blood. But their blood shall speedily be avenged and shall cease to cry unto me, for the hour of God’s judgment is fully come and shall be poured out without measure upon the wicked.

But hearken and hear, O ye Apostles, Elders and people of my Church, to the Word of the Lord concerning you, that for all the blessing that I will pour out upon you and the inhabitants of Zion and the judgments and destruction upon the wicked, I will be inquired of by you to ask the Father in my name to do and to perform these things for you as I told all the House of Israel by my servant Moses, that they should ask at my hand for all those blessings which I the Lord have promised unto Israel in the latter days.

And as I the Lord ordained mine Apostles who were with me in my ministry and promised them that they should sit upon twelve thrones, judging the Twelve Tribes of Israel, so I say unto you mine Apostles, who I have raised up in these last days that I have ordained you to bear record of my name, and of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles first, and then to the House of Israel. I have also ordained you to sit upon thrones and judge the Gentiles and the inhabitants of the earth unto whom you have borne testimony of my name in the day and generation in which you live. Therefore, how great is your calling and responsibility before me. Therefore, gird up the loins of your minds and magnify your calling in the fear of God, and prepare ye for the coming of the Son of Man, which is nigh at the door.

No man knoweth the day nor the hour, but the signs of both heaven and earth indicate His coming, as promised by the mouths of my disciples; the fig tree is leafing and the hour is nigh. Therefore, prepare yourselves, O ye Saints of the Most High God, with oil in your lamps, for blessed is he that watcheth for the coming of the Son of Man.

Again, hear ye the Word of the Lord, O ye mine Apostles whom I have chosen in these last days to bear record of my name and lead my people Israel until the coming of the Son of Man.

I the Lord have raised up unto you my servant John Taylor to preside over you and to be a lawgiver unto my Church. He has mingled his blood with that of the martyred Prophets. Nevertheless, while I have taken my servants Joseph and Hyrum unto myself, I have preserved my servant John Taylor for a wise purpose in me.

I have also taken many others of the Apostles unto myself, for I take whom I will take, and preserve in life whom I will preserve, according to the counsel of mine own will.

And while my servant John Taylor is your President, I wish to ask the rest of my servants of the Apostles the question, although you have one to preside over your Quorum, which is the order of God in all generations, do you not, all of you, hold the apostleship, which is the highest authority ever given to men on earth? You do. Therefore you hold in common the Keys of the Kingdom of God in all the world.

You each of you have the power to unlock the veil of eternity and hold converse with God the Father, and His Son Jesus Christ and to have the ministrations of angels

It is your right, privilege and duty to inquire of the Lord as to His mind and will concerning yourselves and the inhabitants of Zion and their interests.

And whenever any one of you receives the word of the Lord, let it be written and presented in your councils and whatever by united consent you deem wisdom to be presented unto the people, let it be presented by the President, my servant John Taylor, as the word of the Lord. In this way you will uphold him and strengthen his hands, as all the burden should not lie upon one man.

For thus saith the Lord, all mine Apostles should be full of the Holy Ghost, of inspiration and revelation to know the mind and will of God and be prepared for that which is to come. Therefore let mine Apostles keep my commandments and obey my voice and the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.

Fear not, for lo, I am with you until I come and I come quickly. Even so, Amen.
If this is the only revelatory basis for any direction given by God as to what the Church was supposed to do regarding the practice of plural marriage as referred to as "the Patriarchal Law of Abraham, that leadeth to the Celestial Kingdom," what is your interpretation of the Revelation?
While that's a great revelation, that's not what I was thinking of. I will explain my thoughts on that revelation in another post, but these are the words of Woodruff that I was thinking of:

"Oct 25 1891
I made the following remarks. I wish to make the following remarks upon the principle of revelation. Some had thought that revelation had ceased, but this is not the case the Lord is with us and gives us revelation. But I will say for myself that I wish to avoid saying, "Thus saith the Lord," as far as I can when I give the will of the Lord to the people. In the days of Joseph Smith it was "Thus saith the Lord" almost daily until the revelations embodied in the Doctrine and Covenants had been given. Since that day President Brigham Young, John Taylor, and myself have seldom said the words "Thus saith the Lord" when giving the word of the Lord to the people. In the 68th Section of the Book of D & C we are informed that when men speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost it is the word of the Lord and revelation. I have received a revelation and commandment from the Lord which I had not revealed unto any man which I shall reveal to this assembly and the command of the Lord I shall give to this people which is this: The Lord has revealed unto me that there are many in the Church who feel badly tried about the Manifesto and about the testimony of the Presidency and the Apostles before the Master in Chancery. The Lord has commanded me to put the following question to the saints and to those who will give attention to it shall have the Holy Ghost to be with them to inspire them to answer that question for the meek, and the Lord has promised that the answer will be to all alike. The question is this: Which is the wisest course for the Latter-Day-Saints to pursue, to continue to attempt to practise plural marriage with the laws of the Nation against us and some 60,000,000 of people, and at the cost of confiscation and loss of all the temples and the stopping of all the ordinances therein, both for the living and the dead, and the imprisonment of the First Presidency and Twelve and the leaders, or heads of family in the church, and the confiscation of personal property of the people (all of which of themselves would stop the practice) or after ------ and suffering what we through our adherence to this principle to cease the practice and submit to the law and through doing so have prophets, apostles and fathers at home so they can instruct the people and attend to the duties of the Church. Also leave the temples in the hands of the Saints so they can attend to the ordinances of the Gospel, both for the living and the dead. Now the inspiration of the Lord will reveal to any person which course wisdom would dictate us to pursue. And the Latter-Day-Saints throughout Israel should understand that the First Presidency of the Church and the Twelve Apostles are led and guided by the inspiration of the Lord, and the Lord will not permit me nor any other man to lead the people astray.

The Lord showed me by vision and revelation exactly what would take place if we did not stop this practice. IF we had not stopped it, you would have had no use for Brother Merrill, for Brother Edelfsen, for Brother Roskelley, for Brother Leishman, or for any of the men in this temple at Logan; for all ordinances would be stopped throughout the land of Zion. Confusion would reign throughout Israel, and many men would be made prisoners. This trouble would have come upon the whole Church, and we should have been compelled to stop the practic. Now, the question is, whether it should be stopped in this manner, or in the way the Lord has manifested to us, and leave our prophets and apostles and fathers free men, and the temples in the hands of the people, so that the dead may be redeemed? A large number have already been delivered fro the prison house in the spirit world by this people, and shall the work go on or stop? This is the question I lay before the Latter-day Saints. You have to judge for yourselves. I want you to you that that is exactly the condition we as a people would have been in had we not taken the course we have” (Wilford Woodruff, The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, p. 215).

“Yes, I saw by vision and revelation this Temple in the hands of the wicked. I saw our city in the hands of the wicked. I saw every temple in these valleys in the hands of the wicked. I saw great destruction among the people. All these things would have come to pass, as God Almighty lives, had not that Manifesto been given. Therefore, the Son of God felt disposed to have that thing presented to the Church and to the world for purposes in his own mind. The Lord had decreed the establishment of Zion. He had decreed the finishing of this temple. He had decreed that the salvation of the living and the dead should be given in these valleys of the mountains. And Almighty God decreed that the Devil should not thwart it. If you can understand that, that is a key to it” (Wilford Woodruff, The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, p. 218).
Fair enough. I am fully prepared and willing to accept all that. As a matter of political expedience, and in order to go along with the World at that time, including insights into just how sore the trials might become, the Mormon Church discontinued to condone the practice of plural marriage. Ever since then the Church has steadily and continually gone along with the world on just about every front -- now except plural marriage.

At this point, there is not near as much resistance of any kind to plural marriage -- except within the Church. In fact, as I have pointed out, and provided examples, the scope of which most people will not even be capable of fathoming, there seems to be a great re-awakening about plural marriage, and it is women who are driving that re-awakening. So, in light of all that, including the facts that it is no longer illegal, it is becoming more and more socially acceptable, and mostly importantly it is "The Patriarchal Law of Abraham that Leadeth to the Celestial Kingdom," why wouldn't the Church now just shut-up about it, and let that issue be entirely between wives, husbands, and God, without the Church continuing to feel like it has to control and micro-manage every possible thing?

I realize, it has not yet gained enough traction for the Church to lose concern about maintaining its Worldly Image, but it is interesting how out of step with God's own laws the Church is willing to be, even when there is little remaining political expediency in it -- which has got to tell us something.
"the church" baptizes polygamists . . .catch up man . . you are still speaking of past events

User avatar
Sarah
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6337

Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Sarah »

Mangus MacLeod wrote: September 8th, 2022, 2:38 pm
Sarah wrote: September 8th, 2022, 11:28 am
Mangus MacLeod wrote: September 8th, 2022, 11:22 am Yes, that is the accepted narrative, whether God had anything to do with any change of policy and/ or practice or not. And there does not appear to be any evidence of a a revelatory basis that He did. So, as with so many things, at the end of the day, what we have is mortal men relying on the arm of flesh, with little evidence to the contrary.
No evidence? How about WW's testimony of what the Lord told him and showed him?
I have to run out now, but perhaps I should post his words when I return.
I assume this is the "evidence" you must be referring to:

https://historyofmormonism.com/2010/03/ ... evelation/
During the period of the extreme and unrelenting prosecutions under the anti-polygamy acts of Congress, President Wilford Woodruff spent much of his time among the churches in Arizona and southern Utah. On January 26, 1880, having retired for some days in the mountains, fasting and praying, he obtained important revelations from the Lord concerning the work of the Twelve Apostles and events which would happen affecting both the Church and the nation. These were submitted to President John Taylor and the Council of the Apostles and were accepted by them as profitable for doctrine, for comfort, for light as to the future, and for encouragement in the work of the ministry. Following is President Woodruff’s account of receiving revelation.

During the month of January, 1880, I was at Sunset, Arizona, with Brother Lot Smith and the brethren with him who were trying to establish a Branch of the United Order at that place. At this time the Government, through its officers, were using every means in its power to enforce the Edmunds-Tucker and anti-polygamy law with the evident intent on the part of the officers to break us up as an organized community. Being away from President Taylor and my Quorum, I felt deeply distressed in mind concerning our conditions as a people. While thus exercised I went into “the Wilderness”, a region of country called by this name, situated about forty miles west of Sunset, and while there I stopped with two young men who were herding sheep belonging to the people of Sunset. I remained with them ten days, reading the revelations of God as contained in the Doctrine and Covenants, and praying fervently unto the Lord to reveal to me His mind and will concerning Zion. On retiring to bed on the night of the 25th of January, 1880, I found myself wrapt in vision, and the next morning the following revelation was given to me of the Lord which I wrote at the time:

Thus saith the Lord unto my servant, Wilford Woodruff, I have heard thy prayer and will answer thy petition. I will make known unto thee my will concerning the nations who encumber the land of promise and also concerning Zion and her inhabitants.

I have already revealed my will concerning this nation through the mouth of my servant Joseph, who sealed his testimony with his own blood, which testimony has been in force upon all the world from the hour of his death.

What I the Lord have revealed in that testament and decreed upon this nation and upon all the nations of the earth, shall be fulfilled, saith the Lord of hosts. I the Lord have spoken and will be obeyed. My purposes shall be fulfilled upon this nation and no power shall stay My Hand. The hour is at the door when My wrath and indignation will be poured out upon the wicked of the nations.

Their murders, blasphemies, lying, whoredoms, and abominations have come up before my face and before the heavens, and the wrath of my indignation is full.

I have decreed plagues to go forth and waste my enemies, and not many years hence they shall not be left to pollute my heritage.

The devil is ruling over his kingdom and my spirit has no place in the hearts of the rulers of this nation, and the devil stirs them up to defy my power and to make war upon my Saints. Therefore let mine Apostles and mine Elders who are faithful obey my commandments which are already written for their profit and guidance.

Thus saith the Lord unto My servant, John Taylor, and My servant Wilford Woodruff, and My servant, Orson Pratt, and to all the residue of mine Apostles; Have you not gone forth in My name without purse or scrip and declared the Gospel of life and salvation unto this nation and the nations of the earth and warned them of the judgments which are to come as you have been moved upon by the power of the Holy Ghost and the inspiration of the Lord?

You have done this year by year for a whole generation, as men count time. Therefore your garments are clean of the blood of this generation and especially of this nation.

Therefore, as I have said in a former commandment, so I the Lord say again unto My Apostles: Go ye alone by yourselves, whether in heat or in cold and cleanse your feet in water, pure water, it matters not whether it be by the running streams, or in your closets; but leave these testimonies before the Lord and the heavenly hosts; and when you have all done this, then gather yourselves together in your Holy places and clothe yourselves with the robes of the Holy Priesthood and there offer up your prayers according to my Holy Law.

Let him who presides be mouth and kneel at the Holy altar, and there let mine Apostles bring all these testimonies before my face and before the heavenly hosts and before the justified spirits made perfect. And thus saith the Lord unto you, mine apostles, when you bring these testimonies before me, let them be presented by name as far as the Spirit shall present them unto you: The Presidents of the United States, the Supreme Court, the Cabinet, the Senate and Houses of Congress of the United States, the Governors of the States and Territories, the judges and others sent unto you, and all men and persons who have taken any part in persecuting you or bringing distress upon you or your families, or who have sought your lives, or sought to hinder you from keeping my commandments or from enjoying the rights which the constitutional laws of the land guarantee unto you.

And what I the Lord say unto you, mine Apostles, I also say unto my servants- the Seventies, the High Priests, the Elders, the Priests and all my servants who are pure in heart and who have borne testimony unto the nations. Let them go forth and cleanse their feet in pure water and bear testimony of it unto their Father who is in heaven.

And then, saith the Lord unto mine Apostles and mine Elders, when ye do these things with purity of heart, I the Lord will hear your prayers and am bound by oath and covenant to defend you and fight your battles.

As I have said in a former commandment, it is not my will that mine Elders should fight the battles of Zion, for I will fight your battles.

Nevertheless, let no man be afraid to lay down his life for my sake, for he that layeth down his life for my sake shall find it again and have eternal life.

The nation is ripened in iniquity and the cup of the wrath of mine indignation is full and I will not stay my hand in judgments upon this nation or the nations of the earth.

I have decreed wars and judgments upon the wicked and my wrath and indignation are about to be poured out upon them and the wicked and rebellious shall know that I am God.

As I the Lord have spoken so will I fulfill. I will spare none who remain in Babylon, but I will burn them up, saith the Lord of Hosts. As I the Lord have suffered, so will I put all enemies under my feet. For I the Lord utter my word and it shall be obeyed.

And the day of wrath and indignation shall come upon the wicked.

And I say again, woe unto that nation or house or people who seek to hinder my people from obeying the Patriarchal law of Abraham, which leadeth to Celestial Glory, which has been revealed unto my Saints through the mouth of my servant Joseph, for whosoever doeth these things shall be damned, saith the Lord of Hosts, and shall be broken up and wasted away from under heaven by the judgments which I have sent forth, and which shall not return unto me void.

And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed, and with famine and plagues and earthquakes and the thunder of heaven and the vivid lightenings shall this nation and the nations of the earth be made to feel the chastening hand of an Almighty God until they are broken up and destroyed and wasted away from under heaven, and no power can stay my hand. Therefore, let the wicked tremble; let them that blaspheme my name hold their lips, for destruction will swiftly overtake them.

All that I the Lord have spoken through the mouths of my Prophets and Apostles since the world began, concerning the last dispensation and fullness of times, concerning my Church, which has been called out of the wilderness of darkness and error, concerning the Zion and kingdom of God and concerning Babylon the great, and what I have spoken through the mouth of my servant Joseph, shall all be fulfilled.

And though the heaven and earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall be fulfilled, saith the Lord.

These revelations and testimonies are before you. Let my Saints search the Word of the Lord and treasure up wisdom and be prepared for that which is to come.

As I have decreed, so shall my judgments begin at the House of God.

There are those in my Church who have a name among you who are adulterers and adulteresses, and those who blaspheme my name and those who love and make a lie, and those who revel and drink with the drunken.

If they do not speedily repent of this wickedness and abomination, they should be severed from the ordinances of my house, saith the Lord.

There are many who have need to repent, whose hearts are set upon the things of this world, who aspire to the honors of men and do not honor the Priesthood, nor seek to build up the Kingdom of God as they should. Neither do they learn and comprehend:

That the rights of the Priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

Such should repent and turn unto the Lord, and seek for the Holy Spirit to guide them.

Judgments will begin upon my house, and from thence will they go forth unto the world and the wicked cannot escape.

Blessed are the pure in heart for my blessings await them in this life and eternal life in the world to come.

Thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant and Apostles who dwell in the flesh. Fear ye not your enemies. Let not your hearts be troubled. I am in your midst. I am your advocate with the Father. I have given mine angels charge concerning you. Mine eyes are upon you and the eyes of your Heavenly Father and the Heavenly Hosts and all justified spirits made perfect are watching over you. Your works are manifest before the face of my servants who have sealed their testimony with their blood, and before all my servants of the Apostles whom I have taken unto myself.

The veil is taken from off their faces and they know your works. They await your coming when you have finished your testimony in the flesh. Therefore, be ye faithful until I come. My coming is at the door.

Call upon the Lord in mighty prayer, ask and you shall receive. Whenever you agree as touching anything and ask the Father in my name, it shall be given unto you. Seek diligently to build up Zion and to magnify your high calling and your enemies shall not prevail over you. Zion shall not be moved out of her place. Zion shall prevail against her enemies.

My people shall not be hindered in the building of my temples unto my Holy Name, if they will hearken unto my voice and do as I command them.

The blood of my servants Joseph and Hyrum and of mine Apostles and Elders which has been shed for the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ, cries from the ground for vengeance upon the nation which has shed their blood. But their blood shall speedily be avenged and shall cease to cry unto me, for the hour of God’s judgment is fully come and shall be poured out without measure upon the wicked.

But hearken and hear, O ye Apostles, Elders and people of my Church, to the Word of the Lord concerning you, that for all the blessing that I will pour out upon you and the inhabitants of Zion and the judgments and destruction upon the wicked, I will be inquired of by you to ask the Father in my name to do and to perform these things for you as I told all the House of Israel by my servant Moses, that they should ask at my hand for all those blessings which I the Lord have promised unto Israel in the latter days.

And as I the Lord ordained mine Apostles who were with me in my ministry and promised them that they should sit upon twelve thrones, judging the Twelve Tribes of Israel, so I say unto you mine Apostles, who I have raised up in these last days that I have ordained you to bear record of my name, and of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles first, and then to the House of Israel. I have also ordained you to sit upon thrones and judge the Gentiles and the inhabitants of the earth unto whom you have borne testimony of my name in the day and generation in which you live. Therefore, how great is your calling and responsibility before me. Therefore, gird up the loins of your minds and magnify your calling in the fear of God, and prepare ye for the coming of the Son of Man, which is nigh at the door.

No man knoweth the day nor the hour, but the signs of both heaven and earth indicate His coming, as promised by the mouths of my disciples; the fig tree is leafing and the hour is nigh. Therefore, prepare yourselves, O ye Saints of the Most High God, with oil in your lamps, for blessed is he that watcheth for the coming of the Son of Man.

Again, hear ye the Word of the Lord, O ye mine Apostles whom I have chosen in these last days to bear record of my name and lead my people Israel until the coming of the Son of Man.

I the Lord have raised up unto you my servant John Taylor to preside over you and to be a lawgiver unto my Church. He has mingled his blood with that of the martyred Prophets. Nevertheless, while I have taken my servants Joseph and Hyrum unto myself, I have preserved my servant John Taylor for a wise purpose in me.

I have also taken many others of the Apostles unto myself, for I take whom I will take, and preserve in life whom I will preserve, according to the counsel of mine own will.

And while my servant John Taylor is your President, I wish to ask the rest of my servants of the Apostles the question, although you have one to preside over your Quorum, which is the order of God in all generations, do you not, all of you, hold the apostleship, which is the highest authority ever given to men on earth? You do. Therefore you hold in common the Keys of the Kingdom of God in all the world.

You each of you have the power to unlock the veil of eternity and hold converse with God the Father, and His Son Jesus Christ and to have the ministrations of angels

It is your right, privilege and duty to inquire of the Lord as to His mind and will concerning yourselves and the inhabitants of Zion and their interests.

And whenever any one of you receives the word of the Lord, let it be written and presented in your councils and whatever by united consent you deem wisdom to be presented unto the people, let it be presented by the President, my servant John Taylor, as the word of the Lord. In this way you will uphold him and strengthen his hands, as all the burden should not lie upon one man.

For thus saith the Lord, all mine Apostles should be full of the Holy Ghost, of inspiration and revelation to know the mind and will of God and be prepared for that which is to come. Therefore let mine Apostles keep my commandments and obey my voice and the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.

Fear not, for lo, I am with you until I come and I come quickly. Even so, Amen.
If this is the only revelatory basis for any direction given by God as to what the Church was supposed to do regarding the practice of plural marriage as referred to as "the Patriarchal Law of Abraham, that leadeth to the Celestial Kingdom," what is your interpretation of the Revelation?
Before I dive into this 1880 revelation you quoted, I want to ask the question - Did Joseph or Brigham or anyone else, receive a revelation from the Lord in which the Lord commanded that all the members of the church live the Laws of Abraham and Sarah? As far as I can tell, the answer is no, but rather this was a Law revealed to Joseph that he and Emma were commanded to live this Law of the Priesthood themselves. Joseph had an "appointment" as it states in 132, to restore all things, and we have at least a few people saying that Joseph was commanded to introduce the "Law" to his brethren (and he went about doing so by first asking for their wives). But we never see then entire church commanded in a revelation to live it. Brigham did command it at different times in his Presidency (I think towards the end he didn't), but Young also didn't reveal all that he knew about the Law, as is evidenced by him saying that that a wife could go to someone higher in authority without the need for a divorce, and he had not revealed that part of the Law to everyone. So BY decided what parts of the Law should be lived, going off of what Joseph was permitting them to do.

This is why I think Pres. Hinkley was correct when he said that the saints were permitted to live it. They indeed were permitted to live this part of the Law of the Priesthood, the taking of additional wives, because it had been introduced to Brigham, and Brigham now held the Keys of Authority, and so whomever he sealed was sealed, and whomever he loosed he could loose. It was up to him (and his council if he did counsel), how the keys were to be used and who could be sealed to who. The Lord cares more about unity and progression of the group as a whole rather than what stage they are at. And they had a lot further to go in their progression in living this "Law of Abraham" or Law of the Priesthood which included the Law of Sarah.

Brigham said he was shown in Winter Quarters the "Order of Enoch" and how the people should be organized in a family capacity, and that they were not now organized in that way. He said he tried to say a thing or two about it to the other apostles, but it "wouldn't touch a man." Brigham also made comments like this:
December 16, 1860: Part of remarks of Brigham Young at morning meeting:
He also spoke of the Celestial Law; said we should not have the celestial law
revealed to us until we got into the Celestial Kingdom. There is a law
belonging to every kingdom. What kingdom are we in? We are not even in a
Terrestrial Kingdom. Then let us not talk about keeping a celestial law until
we get into a Celestial Kingdom--at least until we can keep the Law of the
Gospel while in a Telestial Kingdom.
So Brigham wasn't in a hurry to get to the ideal order - the Order of Enoch, because he felt the saints weren't ready for it. And in my opinion, the Order of Enoch is not just about the giving and receiving of substance, but of wives or spouses.

He even received a revelation in 1874 from the Lord that commanded him to organize the people into the Order of Enoch. And afterwards in the few years before he died, he talked a lot about the United Order, but the orders fell through and nothing progressed.

Here's another quote:
(The following is from the article, "An Economic Analysis of the United Order")

...Brigham Young himself was not immune to this reluctance.
Although he had always stressed the importance of going
wholeheartedly into the order and had indicated his desire to do
so, in August 1874 speaking in Lehi Young was forced to admit
that
"I am laboring under a certain embarrassment and so are many others
with regard to deeding property and that is to find men who
know what to do with property when it is in their hands. When
this factory at Provo can go into the hands of men who know what to do with it, it will go. When my factory in Salt Lake County can
go into the hands of men who know what to do with it, it will
go 24
When Brigham Young died three years later such men still had
not been found...
You have Eliza Snow saying this:
1872
I was very much pleased with the conference. In speaking of the people living so far beneath their privileges, President Young has said at three different times, “Yet out from this people the Lord will call a people that will do his will.” I have wondered how, when, and to whom is this call to be made. In his remarks one day during conference, President Young spoke of establishing a colony composed of those who had sufficient confidence in each other to bind themselves in an indissoluble band.14 Those that cannot see the order of Enoch will think it an excitement caused by the brethren. It rejoices my heart to see that God is working in our midst, and who are prepared to enter in? Those who have abided the whole law. When we all come to examine ourselves, we shall find the weaknesses of the flesh.
Here's another quote from BY:
Conference, April 6th 1862I have had visions and revelations instructing me how to organize this people so that they can live like the family of heaven, but I cannot do it while so much selfishness and wickedness reign in the Elders of Israel. Many would make of the greatest blessings a curse to them, as they do now the plurality of wives—the abuse of that principle will send thousands to hell. There are many great and glorious privileges for the people, which they are not prepared to receive. How long it will be before they are prepared to enjoy the blessings God has in store for them, I know not—it has not been revealed to me. I know the Lord wants to pour blessings upon this people, but were he to do so in their present ignorance, they would not know what to do with them. They can receive only a very little and that must be administered to them with great care.
So with all that said about the Order of Enoch and the failure of the saints to become one and have more revealed to them about the Law of the Priesthood (Law of Abraham and Sarah), let's look at WW's 1880 revelation.

The Lord speaks of the nations hindering the living of the Law of Abraham, but we learn in section 132 that there is more about this Law of the Priesthood, and Law of Sarah than that which we have. And think about it - the Law of Sarah is about giving a spouse to another, but the Law of Abraham is just about receiving? We have a lot more to be revealed about this law so that the giving and receiving go both ways. The Lord is allowing the saints to live some parts of the Law because they desire it, and he is also waiting, and giving them a chance to seek for more light and live the laws and commandments he's already given them. He's waiting for them to progress into living the Laws of Stewardship and Consecration, which progresses into the giving and receiving of spouses. It is because they did not progress, that the Lord gives Woodruff the revelation about what he is going to let happen.

From the revelation:
These revelations and testimonies are before you. Let my Saints search the Word of the Lord and treasure up wisdom and be prepared for that which is to come.

As I have decreed, so shall my judgments begin at the House of God.

There are those in my Church who have a name among you who are adulterers and adulteresses, and those who blaspheme my name and those who love and make a lie, and those who revel and drink with the drunken.

If they do not speedily repent of this wickedness and abomination, they should be severed from the ordinances of my house, saith the Lord.

There are many who have need to repent, whose hearts are set upon the things of this world, who aspire to the honors of men and do not honor the Priesthood, nor seek to build up the Kingdom of God as they should. Neither do they learn and comprehend:

That the rights of the Priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.


Such should repent and turn unto the Lord, and seek for the Holy Spirit to guide them.

Judgments will begin upon my house, and from thence will they go forth unto the world and the wicked cannot escape.
The Lord is warning them that they need to repent and that judgments are about to begin with His house. He then tells them to do this:
Call upon the Lord in mighty prayer, ask and you shall receive. Whenever you agree as touching anything and ask the Father in my name, it shall be given unto you. Seek diligently to build up Zion and to magnify your high calling and your enemies shall not prevail over you. Zion shall not be moved out of her place. Zion shall prevail against her enemies.

My people shall not be hindered in the building of my temples unto my Holy Name, if they will hearken unto my voice and do as I command them.
Hmm, that sounds familiar - they will not be hindered in the building of temples if they hearken unto the voice of the Lord. And that's exactly what we see later with what WW is shown, that they need to stop the practice if they want to keep the temples.

He tells then that if they can simply counsel together and become united about anything - he will help them. But they did not do this. They did not become one, nor seek diligently to build up Zion according to the principles they were given, and so their enemies were allowed to overcome them as they tried to live only part of a Celestial Law.
Therefore let mine Apostles keep my commandments and obey my voice and the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.
The Lord allowed the saints to be overcome by their enemies for a reason. It was because they were not obeying all of the Lord's commandments he had given them. This is the reason Woodruff received the revelation he did.

User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7798
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Contact:

Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

gruden2.0 wrote: September 8th, 2022, 4:46 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: September 8th, 2022, 4:10 pm
gruden2.0 wrote: September 8th, 2022, 2:17 pm
Mangus MacLeod wrote: September 8th, 2022, 8:39 am There are several other places where I could have picked up this conversation, including the thread that I started a few months ago about the undeniable negative biases of the LDS Church and the vast majority of its members, towards plural marriage.

And I noticed the thread about "Women and Polygamy" in the Sisters' section, which doesn't seem to be gaining much traction, as often seems to be the case with threads in that section.

And, I could have used the Railroad thread, perhaps, but it doesn't seem like a great fit there, either, and last time I did that, with my story about helping a panhandler, the discussion ended up spinning so far out of control, that I can't wish anything like for that thread again.
Decided to stir the pot with a polygamy thread? I'm sure it will spiral out of control if people still have interesting in posting on the subject. The mods keep deleting my posts on polygamy so there isn't much point for me.

Anyway, my wife descended from a Nauvoo apostle's 5th wife, she despised him and rarely saw him, usually only when he stopped by to procreate.

Isaiah says the women will bring back polygamy. If some women are desperate for good men now, it will be much more the case in the near future when there are few men left.
Isaiah wasn't talking about polygamy, my friend. Think more symbolic. Christ is the "man" in those verses btw.
Interesting take, but I disagree.

Look at the context: The previous chapter detailed how the women have been shamed and are suffering, a man is more precious than gold.
Isaiah 4:1 wrote: Seven women will take hold of one man in that day, and say, we will eat our own food, wear our own clothes, only let us be called by your name - take away our reproach!
Gileadi's translation makes it pretty clear. "Lay hold" is telling you exactly what they're doing. So many men will perish in the violence and wars there will be only 1 man for every 7 women left.

If Isaiah was talking about the Lord, then you would see "seven women will take hold of the Lord", which wouldn't make much sense.
Who are the women? Think of all of the churches that have gone astray. Think Bridegroom and Bride. Think of the gathering of the pure in heart when Christ comes.

User avatar
Sarah
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6337

Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Sarah »

Mangus MacLeod wrote: September 8th, 2022, 4:14 pm
Sarah wrote: September 8th, 2022, 3:49 pm
Mangus MacLeod wrote: September 8th, 2022, 2:38 pm
Sarah wrote: September 8th, 2022, 11:28 am

No evidence? How about WW's testimony of what the Lord told him and showed him?
I have to run out now, but perhaps I should post his words when I return.
I assume this is the "evidence" you must be referring to:

https://historyofmormonism.com/2010/03/ ... evelation/
During the period of the extreme and unrelenting prosecutions under the anti-polygamy acts of Congress, President Wilford Woodruff spent much of his time among the churches in Arizona and southern Utah. On January 26, 1880, having retired for some days in the mountains, fasting and praying, he obtained important revelations from the Lord concerning the work of the Twelve Apostles and events which would happen affecting both the Church and the nation. These were submitted to President John Taylor and the Council of the Apostles and were accepted by them as profitable for doctrine, for comfort, for light as to the future, and for encouragement in the work of the ministry. Following is President Woodruff’s account of receiving revelation.

During the month of January, 1880, I was at Sunset, Arizona, with Brother Lot Smith and the brethren with him who were trying to establish a Branch of the United Order at that place. At this time the Government, through its officers, were using every means in its power to enforce the Edmunds-Tucker and anti-polygamy law with the evident intent on the part of the officers to break us up as an organized community. Being away from President Taylor and my Quorum, I felt deeply distressed in mind concerning our conditions as a people. While thus exercised I went into “the Wilderness”, a region of country called by this name, situated about forty miles west of Sunset, and while there I stopped with two young men who were herding sheep belonging to the people of Sunset. I remained with them ten days, reading the revelations of God as contained in the Doctrine and Covenants, and praying fervently unto the Lord to reveal to me His mind and will concerning Zion. On retiring to bed on the night of the 25th of January, 1880, I found myself wrapt in vision, and the next morning the following revelation was given to me of the Lord which I wrote at the time:

Thus saith the Lord unto my servant, Wilford Woodruff, I have heard thy prayer and will answer thy petition. I will make known unto thee my will concerning the nations who encumber the land of promise and also concerning Zion and her inhabitants.

I have already revealed my will concerning this nation through the mouth of my servant Joseph, who sealed his testimony with his own blood, which testimony has been in force upon all the world from the hour of his death.

What I the Lord have revealed in that testament and decreed upon this nation and upon all the nations of the earth, shall be fulfilled, saith the Lord of hosts. I the Lord have spoken and will be obeyed. My purposes shall be fulfilled upon this nation and no power shall stay My Hand. The hour is at the door when My wrath and indignation will be poured out upon the wicked of the nations.

Their murders, blasphemies, lying, whoredoms, and abominations have come up before my face and before the heavens, and the wrath of my indignation is full.

I have decreed plagues to go forth and waste my enemies, and not many years hence they shall not be left to pollute my heritage.

The devil is ruling over his kingdom and my spirit has no place in the hearts of the rulers of this nation, and the devil stirs them up to defy my power and to make war upon my Saints. Therefore let mine Apostles and mine Elders who are faithful obey my commandments which are already written for their profit and guidance.

Thus saith the Lord unto My servant, John Taylor, and My servant Wilford Woodruff, and My servant, Orson Pratt, and to all the residue of mine Apostles; Have you not gone forth in My name without purse or scrip and declared the Gospel of life and salvation unto this nation and the nations of the earth and warned them of the judgments which are to come as you have been moved upon by the power of the Holy Ghost and the inspiration of the Lord?

You have done this year by year for a whole generation, as men count time. Therefore your garments are clean of the blood of this generation and especially of this nation.

Therefore, as I have said in a former commandment, so I the Lord say again unto My Apostles: Go ye alone by yourselves, whether in heat or in cold and cleanse your feet in water, pure water, it matters not whether it be by the running streams, or in your closets; but leave these testimonies before the Lord and the heavenly hosts; and when you have all done this, then gather yourselves together in your Holy places and clothe yourselves with the robes of the Holy Priesthood and there offer up your prayers according to my Holy Law.

Let him who presides be mouth and kneel at the Holy altar, and there let mine Apostles bring all these testimonies before my face and before the heavenly hosts and before the justified spirits made perfect. And thus saith the Lord unto you, mine apostles, when you bring these testimonies before me, let them be presented by name as far as the Spirit shall present them unto you: The Presidents of the United States, the Supreme Court, the Cabinet, the Senate and Houses of Congress of the United States, the Governors of the States and Territories, the judges and others sent unto you, and all men and persons who have taken any part in persecuting you or bringing distress upon you or your families, or who have sought your lives, or sought to hinder you from keeping my commandments or from enjoying the rights which the constitutional laws of the land guarantee unto you.

And what I the Lord say unto you, mine Apostles, I also say unto my servants- the Seventies, the High Priests, the Elders, the Priests and all my servants who are pure in heart and who have borne testimony unto the nations. Let them go forth and cleanse their feet in pure water and bear testimony of it unto their Father who is in heaven.

And then, saith the Lord unto mine Apostles and mine Elders, when ye do these things with purity of heart, I the Lord will hear your prayers and am bound by oath and covenant to defend you and fight your battles.

As I have said in a former commandment, it is not my will that mine Elders should fight the battles of Zion, for I will fight your battles.

Nevertheless, let no man be afraid to lay down his life for my sake, for he that layeth down his life for my sake shall find it again and have eternal life.

The nation is ripened in iniquity and the cup of the wrath of mine indignation is full and I will not stay my hand in judgments upon this nation or the nations of the earth.

I have decreed wars and judgments upon the wicked and my wrath and indignation are about to be poured out upon them and the wicked and rebellious shall know that I am God.

As I the Lord have spoken so will I fulfill. I will spare none who remain in Babylon, but I will burn them up, saith the Lord of Hosts. As I the Lord have suffered, so will I put all enemies under my feet. For I the Lord utter my word and it shall be obeyed.

And the day of wrath and indignation shall come upon the wicked.

And I say again, woe unto that nation or house or people who seek to hinder my people from obeying the Patriarchal law of Abraham, which leadeth to Celestial Glory, which has been revealed unto my Saints through the mouth of my servant Joseph, for whosoever doeth these things shall be damned, saith the Lord of Hosts, and shall be broken up and wasted away from under heaven by the judgments which I have sent forth, and which shall not return unto me void.

And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed, and with famine and plagues and earthquakes and the thunder of heaven and the vivid lightenings shall this nation and the nations of the earth be made to feel the chastening hand of an Almighty God until they are broken up and destroyed and wasted away from under heaven, and no power can stay my hand. Therefore, let the wicked tremble; let them that blaspheme my name hold their lips, for destruction will swiftly overtake them.

All that I the Lord have spoken through the mouths of my Prophets and Apostles since the world began, concerning the last dispensation and fullness of times, concerning my Church, which has been called out of the wilderness of darkness and error, concerning the Zion and kingdom of God and concerning Babylon the great, and what I have spoken through the mouth of my servant Joseph, shall all be fulfilled.

And though the heaven and earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall be fulfilled, saith the Lord.

These revelations and testimonies are before you. Let my Saints search the Word of the Lord and treasure up wisdom and be prepared for that which is to come.

As I have decreed, so shall my judgments begin at the House of God.

There are those in my Church who have a name among you who are adulterers and adulteresses, and those who blaspheme my name and those who love and make a lie, and those who revel and drink with the drunken.

If they do not speedily repent of this wickedness and abomination, they should be severed from the ordinances of my house, saith the Lord.

There are many who have need to repent, whose hearts are set upon the things of this world, who aspire to the honors of men and do not honor the Priesthood, nor seek to build up the Kingdom of God as they should. Neither do they learn and comprehend:

That the rights of the Priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

Such should repent and turn unto the Lord, and seek for the Holy Spirit to guide them.

Judgments will begin upon my house, and from thence will they go forth unto the world and the wicked cannot escape.

Blessed are the pure in heart for my blessings await them in this life and eternal life in the world to come.

Thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant and Apostles who dwell in the flesh. Fear ye not your enemies. Let not your hearts be troubled. I am in your midst. I am your advocate with the Father. I have given mine angels charge concerning you. Mine eyes are upon you and the eyes of your Heavenly Father and the Heavenly Hosts and all justified spirits made perfect are watching over you. Your works are manifest before the face of my servants who have sealed their testimony with their blood, and before all my servants of the Apostles whom I have taken unto myself.

The veil is taken from off their faces and they know your works. They await your coming when you have finished your testimony in the flesh. Therefore, be ye faithful until I come. My coming is at the door.

Call upon the Lord in mighty prayer, ask and you shall receive. Whenever you agree as touching anything and ask the Father in my name, it shall be given unto you. Seek diligently to build up Zion and to magnify your high calling and your enemies shall not prevail over you. Zion shall not be moved out of her place. Zion shall prevail against her enemies.

My people shall not be hindered in the building of my temples unto my Holy Name, if they will hearken unto my voice and do as I command them.

The blood of my servants Joseph and Hyrum and of mine Apostles and Elders which has been shed for the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ, cries from the ground for vengeance upon the nation which has shed their blood. But their blood shall speedily be avenged and shall cease to cry unto me, for the hour of God’s judgment is fully come and shall be poured out without measure upon the wicked.

But hearken and hear, O ye Apostles, Elders and people of my Church, to the Word of the Lord concerning you, that for all the blessing that I will pour out upon you and the inhabitants of Zion and the judgments and destruction upon the wicked, I will be inquired of by you to ask the Father in my name to do and to perform these things for you as I told all the House of Israel by my servant Moses, that they should ask at my hand for all those blessings which I the Lord have promised unto Israel in the latter days.

And as I the Lord ordained mine Apostles who were with me in my ministry and promised them that they should sit upon twelve thrones, judging the Twelve Tribes of Israel, so I say unto you mine Apostles, who I have raised up in these last days that I have ordained you to bear record of my name, and of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles first, and then to the House of Israel. I have also ordained you to sit upon thrones and judge the Gentiles and the inhabitants of the earth unto whom you have borne testimony of my name in the day and generation in which you live. Therefore, how great is your calling and responsibility before me. Therefore, gird up the loins of your minds and magnify your calling in the fear of God, and prepare ye for the coming of the Son of Man, which is nigh at the door.

No man knoweth the day nor the hour, but the signs of both heaven and earth indicate His coming, as promised by the mouths of my disciples; the fig tree is leafing and the hour is nigh. Therefore, prepare yourselves, O ye Saints of the Most High God, with oil in your lamps, for blessed is he that watcheth for the coming of the Son of Man.

Again, hear ye the Word of the Lord, O ye mine Apostles whom I have chosen in these last days to bear record of my name and lead my people Israel until the coming of the Son of Man.

I the Lord have raised up unto you my servant John Taylor to preside over you and to be a lawgiver unto my Church. He has mingled his blood with that of the martyred Prophets. Nevertheless, while I have taken my servants Joseph and Hyrum unto myself, I have preserved my servant John Taylor for a wise purpose in me.

I have also taken many others of the Apostles unto myself, for I take whom I will take, and preserve in life whom I will preserve, according to the counsel of mine own will.

And while my servant John Taylor is your President, I wish to ask the rest of my servants of the Apostles the question, although you have one to preside over your Quorum, which is the order of God in all generations, do you not, all of you, hold the apostleship, which is the highest authority ever given to men on earth? You do. Therefore you hold in common the Keys of the Kingdom of God in all the world.

You each of you have the power to unlock the veil of eternity and hold converse with God the Father, and His Son Jesus Christ and to have the ministrations of angels

It is your right, privilege and duty to inquire of the Lord as to His mind and will concerning yourselves and the inhabitants of Zion and their interests.

And whenever any one of you receives the word of the Lord, let it be written and presented in your councils and whatever by united consent you deem wisdom to be presented unto the people, let it be presented by the President, my servant John Taylor, as the word of the Lord. In this way you will uphold him and strengthen his hands, as all the burden should not lie upon one man.

For thus saith the Lord, all mine Apostles should be full of the Holy Ghost, of inspiration and revelation to know the mind and will of God and be prepared for that which is to come. Therefore let mine Apostles keep my commandments and obey my voice and the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.

Fear not, for lo, I am with you until I come and I come quickly. Even so, Amen.
If this is the only revelatory basis for any direction given by God as to what the Church was supposed to do regarding the practice of plural marriage as referred to as "the Patriarchal Law of Abraham, that leadeth to the Celestial Kingdom," what is your interpretation of the Revelation?
While that's a great revelation, that's not what I was thinking of. I will explain my thoughts on that revelation in another post, but these are the words of Woodruff that I was thinking of:

"Oct 25 1891
I made the following remarks. I wish to make the following remarks upon the principle of revelation. Some had thought that revelation had ceased, but this is not the case the Lord is with us and gives us revelation. But I will say for myself that I wish to avoid saying, "Thus saith the Lord," as far as I can when I give the will of the Lord to the people. In the days of Joseph Smith it was "Thus saith the Lord" almost daily until the revelations embodied in the Doctrine and Covenants had been given. Since that day President Brigham Young, John Taylor, and myself have seldom said the words "Thus saith the Lord" when giving the word of the Lord to the people. In the 68th Section of the Book of D & C we are informed that when men speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost it is the word of the Lord and revelation. I have received a revelation and commandment from the Lord which I had not revealed unto any man which I shall reveal to this assembly and the command of the Lord I shall give to this people which is this: The Lord has revealed unto me that there are many in the Church who feel badly tried about the Manifesto and about the testimony of the Presidency and the Apostles before the Master in Chancery. The Lord has commanded me to put the following question to the saints and to those who will give attention to it shall have the Holy Ghost to be with them to inspire them to answer that question for the meek, and the Lord has promised that the answer will be to all alike. The question is this: Which is the wisest course for the Latter-Day-Saints to pursue, to continue to attempt to practise plural marriage with the laws of the Nation against us and some 60,000,000 of people, and at the cost of confiscation and loss of all the temples and the stopping of all the ordinances therein, both for the living and the dead, and the imprisonment of the First Presidency and Twelve and the leaders, or heads of family in the church, and the confiscation of personal property of the people (all of which of themselves would stop the practice) or after ------ and suffering what we through our adherence to this principle to cease the practice and submit to the law and through doing so have prophets, apostles and fathers at home so they can instruct the people and attend to the duties of the Church. Also leave the temples in the hands of the Saints so they can attend to the ordinances of the Gospel, both for the living and the dead. Now the inspiration of the Lord will reveal to any person which course wisdom would dictate us to pursue. And the Latter-Day-Saints throughout Israel should understand that the First Presidency of the Church and the Twelve Apostles are led and guided by the inspiration of the Lord, and the Lord will not permit me nor any other man to lead the people astray.

The Lord showed me by vision and revelation exactly what would take place if we did not stop this practice. IF we had not stopped it, you would have had no use for Brother Merrill, for Brother Edelfsen, for Brother Roskelley, for Brother Leishman, or for any of the men in this temple at Logan; for all ordinances would be stopped throughout the land of Zion. Confusion would reign throughout Israel, and many men would be made prisoners. This trouble would have come upon the whole Church, and we should have been compelled to stop the practic. Now, the question is, whether it should be stopped in this manner, or in the way the Lord has manifested to us, and leave our prophets and apostles and fathers free men, and the temples in the hands of the people, so that the dead may be redeemed? A large number have already been delivered fro the prison house in the spirit world by this people, and shall the work go on or stop? This is the question I lay before the Latter-day Saints. You have to judge for yourselves. I want you to you that that is exactly the condition we as a people would have been in had we not taken the course we have” (Wilford Woodruff, The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, p. 215).

“Yes, I saw by vision and revelation this Temple in the hands of the wicked. I saw our city in the hands of the wicked. I saw every temple in these valleys in the hands of the wicked. I saw great destruction among the people. All these things would have come to pass, as God Almighty lives, had not that Manifesto been given. Therefore, the Son of God felt disposed to have that thing presented to the Church and to the world for purposes in his own mind. The Lord had decreed the establishment of Zion. He had decreed the finishing of this temple. He had decreed that the salvation of the living and the dead should be given in these valleys of the mountains. And Almighty God decreed that the Devil should not thwart it. If you can understand that, that is a key to it” (Wilford Woodruff, The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, p. 218).
Fair enough. I am fully prepared and willing to accept all that. As a matter of political expedience, and in order to go along with the World at that time, including insights into just how sore the trials might become, the Mormon Church discontinued to condone the practice of plural marriage. Ever since then the Church has steadily and continually gone along with the world on just about every front -- now except plural marriage.

At this point, there is not near as much resistance of any kind to plural marriage -- except within the Church. In fact, as I have pointed out, and provided examples, the scope of which most people will not even be capable of fathoming, there seems to be a great re-awakening about plural marriage, and it is women who are driving that re-awakening. So, in light of all that, including the facts that it is no longer illegal, it is becoming more and more socially acceptable, and mostly importantly it is "The Patriarchal Law of Abraham that Leadeth to the Celestial Kingdom," why wouldn't the Church now just shut-up about it, and let that issue be entirely between wives, husbands, and God, without the Church continuing to feel like it has to control and micro-manage every possible thing?

I realize, it has not yet gained enough traction for the Church to lose concern about maintaining its Worldly Image, but it is interesting how out of step with God's own laws the Church is willing to be, even when there is little remaining political expediency in it -- which has got to tell us something.
The church is against it because they believe it is not just a question between individuals and what they want. Just like gay marriage. It is about what the Lord's standard is - monogamy - and what the exceptions are - plural marriage only by commandment, which is a Celestial Law. Telestial people should not be living Celestial Laws. There is a reason why we have the commandment to not commit adultery.

User avatar
tmac
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2540
Location: Reality

Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by tmac »

EvanLM wrote: September 8th, 2022, 4:54 pm
Mangus MacLeod wrote: September 8th, 2022, 4:14 pm
Sarah wrote: September 8th, 2022, 3:49 pm
Mangus MacLeod wrote: September 8th, 2022, 2:38 pm

I assume this is the "evidence" you must be referring to:

https://historyofmormonism.com/2010/03/ ... evelation/



If this is the only revelatory basis for any direction given by God as to what the Church was supposed to do regarding the practice of plural marriage as referred to as "the Patriarchal Law of Abraham, that leadeth to the Celestial Kingdom," what is your interpretation of the Revelation?
While that's a great revelation, that's not what I was thinking of. I will explain my thoughts on that revelation in another post, but these are the words of Woodruff that I was thinking of:

"Oct 25 1891
I made the following remarks. I wish to make the following remarks upon the principle of revelation. Some had thought that revelation had ceased, but this is not the case the Lord is with us and gives us revelation. But I will say for myself that I wish to avoid saying, "Thus saith the Lord," as far as I can when I give the will of the Lord to the people. In the days of Joseph Smith it was "Thus saith the Lord" almost daily until the revelations embodied in the Doctrine and Covenants had been given. Since that day President Brigham Young, John Taylor, and myself have seldom said the words "Thus saith the Lord" when giving the word of the Lord to the people. In the 68th Section of the Book of D & C we are informed that when men speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost it is the word of the Lord and revelation. I have received a revelation and commandment from the Lord which I had not revealed unto any man which I shall reveal to this assembly and the command of the Lord I shall give to this people which is this: The Lord has revealed unto me that there are many in the Church who feel badly tried about the Manifesto and about the testimony of the Presidency and the Apostles before the Master in Chancery. The Lord has commanded me to put the following question to the saints and to those who will give attention to it shall have the Holy Ghost to be with them to inspire them to answer that question for the meek, and the Lord has promised that the answer will be to all alike. The question is this: Which is the wisest course for the Latter-Day-Saints to pursue, to continue to attempt to practise plural marriage with the laws of the Nation against us and some 60,000,000 of people, and at the cost of confiscation and loss of all the temples and the stopping of all the ordinances therein, both for the living and the dead, and the imprisonment of the First Presidency and Twelve and the leaders, or heads of family in the church, and the confiscation of personal property of the people (all of which of themselves would stop the practice) or after ------ and suffering what we through our adherence to this principle to cease the practice and submit to the law and through doing so have prophets, apostles and fathers at home so they can instruct the people and attend to the duties of the Church. Also leave the temples in the hands of the Saints so they can attend to the ordinances of the Gospel, both for the living and the dead. Now the inspiration of the Lord will reveal to any person which course wisdom would dictate us to pursue. And the Latter-Day-Saints throughout Israel should understand that the First Presidency of the Church and the Twelve Apostles are led and guided by the inspiration of the Lord, and the Lord will not permit me nor any other man to lead the people astray.

The Lord showed me by vision and revelation exactly what would take place if we did not stop this practice. IF we had not stopped it, you would have had no use for Brother Merrill, for Brother Edelfsen, for Brother Roskelley, for Brother Leishman, or for any of the men in this temple at Logan; for all ordinances would be stopped throughout the land of Zion. Confusion would reign throughout Israel, and many men would be made prisoners. This trouble would have come upon the whole Church, and we should have been compelled to stop the practic. Now, the question is, whether it should be stopped in this manner, or in the way the Lord has manifested to us, and leave our prophets and apostles and fathers free men, and the temples in the hands of the people, so that the dead may be redeemed? A large number have already been delivered fro the prison house in the spirit world by this people, and shall the work go on or stop? This is the question I lay before the Latter-day Saints. You have to judge for yourselves. I want you to you that that is exactly the condition we as a people would have been in had we not taken the course we have” (Wilford Woodruff, The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, p. 215).

“Yes, I saw by vision and revelation this Temple in the hands of the wicked. I saw our city in the hands of the wicked. I saw every temple in these valleys in the hands of the wicked. I saw great destruction among the people. All these things would have come to pass, as God Almighty lives, had not that Manifesto been given. Therefore, the Son of God felt disposed to have that thing presented to the Church and to the world for purposes in his own mind. The Lord had decreed the establishment of Zion. He had decreed the finishing of this temple. He had decreed that the salvation of the living and the dead should be given in these valleys of the mountains. And Almighty God decreed that the Devil should not thwart it. If you can understand that, that is a key to it” (Wilford Woodruff, The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, p. 218).
Fair enough. I am fully prepared and willing to accept all that. As a matter of political expedience, and in order to go along with the World at that time, including insights into just how sore the trials might become, the Mormon Church discontinued to condone the practice of plural marriage. Ever since then the Church has steadily and continually gone along with the world on just about every front -- now except plural marriage.

At this point, there is not near as much resistance of any kind to plural marriage -- except within the Church. In fact, as I have pointed out, and provided examples, the scope of which most people will not even be capable of fathoming, there seems to be a great re-awakening about plural marriage, and it is women who are driving that re-awakening. So, in light of all that, including the facts that it is no longer illegal, it is becoming more and more socially acceptable, and mostly importantly it is "The Patriarchal Law of Abraham that Leadeth to the Celestial Kingdom," why wouldn't the Church now just shut-up about it, and let that issue be entirely between wives, husbands, and God, without the Church continuing to feel like it has to control and micro-manage every possible thing?

I realize, it has not yet gained enough traction for the Church to lose concern about maintaining its Worldly Image, but it is interesting how out of step with God's own laws the Church is willing to be, even when there is little remaining political expediency in it -- which has got to tell us something.
"the church" baptizes polygamists . . .catch up man . . you are still speaking of past events
With all due respect, you don’t know what you don’t know. The Church does not allow the baptism of polygamists or their minor children. Why would you say it does?
Last edited by tmac on September 8th, 2022, 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply