Salt Lake Temple Rebuild

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silverado
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Re: Salt Lake Temple Rebuild

Post by silverado »

Lizzy60 wrote: August 30th, 2022, 12:40 pm
TheDuke wrote: August 30th, 2022, 12:34 pm I am confused. I thought BY built an inverted pyramid under the temple so that it would remain as is into the millennium? Why are we worried when these precautions were taken 150 years ago. Like the panels for electricity, elevators and wifi?

I have been in cathedrals built in the 1300's to 1500's with enormous domes that are not worried about catastrophic failure?
Part of Nelson’s legacy. In my opinion, of course.
Yay! What a legacy! Remove historic pioneer murals and woodwork so it is just like any other temple.

Maybe there is more that we aren't aware of?

Lizzy60
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Re: Salt Lake Temple Rebuild

Post by Lizzy60 »

silverado wrote: August 30th, 2022, 1:47 pm
Lizzy60 wrote: August 30th, 2022, 12:40 pm
TheDuke wrote: August 30th, 2022, 12:34 pm I am confused. I thought BY built an inverted pyramid under the temple so that it would remain as is into the millennium? Why are we worried when these precautions were taken 150 years ago. Like the panels for electricity, elevators and wifi?

I have been in cathedrals built in the 1300's to 1500's with enormous domes that are not worried about catastrophic failure?
Part of Nelson’s legacy. In my opinion, of course.

Yay! What a legacy! Remove historic pioneer murals and woodwork so it is just like any other temple.
Miss Wendy will probably be given credit for the new sumptuous interior decoration.

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Niemand
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Re: Salt Lake Temple Rebuild

Post by Niemand »

TheDuke wrote: August 30th, 2022, 12:34 pm I am confused. I thought BY built an inverted pyramid under the temple so that it would remain as is into the millennium? Why are we worried when these precautions were taken 150 years ago. Like the panels for electricity, elevators and wifi?

I have been in cathedrals built in the 1300's to 1500's with enormous domes that are not worried about catastrophic failure?
Exactly, the main worry with cathedrals has been bombing/war in some parts of the world, and fire (as seen with Notre Dame in Paris... and there are a lot of questions over that fire and its timing.)

The main difference is that cathedrals tend to have vast internal spaces and good use of natural light which our temples don't.

I have been in one cathedral which was trashed by an earthquake and that was the Anglican one in Christchurch, New Zealand. I think the spire fell down. It was never a big cathedral and it was built in the late 19th century.

Image
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And as I remember it.

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TwochurchesOnly
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Re: Salt Lake Temple Rebuild

Post by TwochurchesOnly »

Lizzy60 wrote: August 30th, 2022, 1:52 pm
silverado wrote: August 30th, 2022, 1:47 pm
Lizzy60 wrote: August 30th, 2022, 12:40 pm
TheDuke wrote: August 30th, 2022, 12:34 pm I am confused. I thought BY built an inverted pyramid under the temple so that it would remain as is into the millennium? Why are we worried when these precautions were taken 150 years ago. Like the panels for electricity, elevators and wifi?

I have been in cathedrals built in the 1300's to 1500's with enormous domes that are not worried about catastrophic failure?
Part of Nelson’s legacy. In my opinion, of course.

Yay! What a legacy! Remove historic pioneer murals and woodwork so it is just like any other temple.
Miss Wendy will probably be given credit for the new sumptuous interior decoration.
🤢😤

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TheDuke
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Re: Salt Lake Temple Rebuild

Post by TheDuke »

I have been to most of the beautiful cathedrals, Notre Dame, St Peters, St Pauls, Brussels, Madrid, Velencia, Milan, Florence, Heidelberg, St Denis, Westminster abbey, Sevilla, Cordoba, Washington. Most old, all beautiful, seldom had interiors redone., outside stones often cleaned and resurfaced due to pollution.

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Subcomandante
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Re: Salt Lake Temple Rebuild

Post by Subcomandante »

silverado wrote: August 29th, 2022, 2:01 pm
Subcomandante wrote: August 29th, 2022, 7:13 am
Lizzy60 wrote: August 28th, 2022, 2:59 pm
Subcomandante wrote: August 28th, 2022, 2:48 pm

I don't think earthquake-proofing a temple is a waste of money, nor represents vanity or greed. It's common sense in an active seismological zone.
They are doing a whole lot more than earthquake-proofing the temple. The entire interior is being redone. No more murals, no more pioneer woodworking. This is a vanity project under the direction of a man who seems to think God can’t protect any building He wants protected, and can’t destroy any building He wants destroyed.
Such narcissism is almost breathtaking.
When the Mexico City Temple was being renovated, this happened too. The difference is that the members generally accepted the changes that happened within the temple, whereas the people on this forum will look for any excuse to grind their axes.

What happened in Mexico City and later at Concepción Chile (the latter dedicated by President Nelson) were templates for what was going to be done in Salt Lake City as those areas are in areas with greater seismicity than that experienced in Utah.
Did the Mexico City Temple have historic pioneer-era murals removed, after the church said they were going to preserve them?
I hope not.
Making it safer from earthquake is one thing. Destroying irreplaceable historical things is another.
In the end the murals don't matter. To paraphrase Christ, what is holy, the murals, or the temple that makes them holy?

The murals could exist for a thousand more years or they could be removed and sent to another location. The temple will still be a temple, with or without the murals.

There were quite a few changes with the temple's renovation and rededication. The visitor's center also got a HUGE facelift, as did the dormitories (which had been the previous MTC previous to Benemerito's conversion to a new MTC).

The murals are ancillaries. No one need whine about their removal.

CuriousThinker
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Re: Salt Lake Temple Rebuild

Post by CuriousThinker »

In CA all sorts of things have been retrofitted for earthquakes that were built a long time ago and it never takes this long or requires so much reconstruction. Anyone know why this would take this many years to retrofit?

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BuriedTartaria
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Re: Salt Lake Temple Rebuild

Post by BuriedTartaria »

TheDuke wrote: August 30th, 2022, 7:19 pm I have been to most of the beautiful cathedrals, Notre Dame, St Peters, St Pauls, Brussels, Madrid, Velencia, Milan, Florence, Heidelberg, St Denis, Westminster abbey, Sevilla, Cordoba, Washington. Most old, all beautiful, seldom had interiors redone., outside stones often cleaned and resurfaced due to pollution.
Is SLC Temple having its interiors redone? If so, why? I think an earthquake is taking this thing down.

silverado
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Re: Salt Lake Temple Rebuild

Post by silverado »

Subcomandante wrote: August 30th, 2022, 7:35 pm
silverado wrote: August 29th, 2022, 2:01 pm
Subcomandante wrote: August 29th, 2022, 7:13 am
Lizzy60 wrote: August 28th, 2022, 2:59 pm

They are doing a whole lot more than earthquake-proofing the temple. The entire interior is being redone. No more murals, no more pioneer woodworking. This is a vanity project under the direction of a man who seems to think God can’t protect any building He wants protected, and can’t destroy any building He wants destroyed.
Such narcissism is almost breathtaking.
When the Mexico City Temple was being renovated, this happened too. The difference is that the members generally accepted the changes that happened within the temple, whereas the people on this forum will look for any excuse to grind their axes.

What happened in Mexico City and later at Concepción Chile (the latter dedicated by President Nelson) were templates for what was going to be done in Salt Lake City as those areas are in areas with greater seismicity than that experienced in Utah.
Did the Mexico City Temple have historic pioneer-era murals removed, after the church said they were going to preserve them?
I hope not.
Making it safer from earthquake is one thing. Destroying irreplaceable historical things is another.
In the end the murals don't matter. To paraphrase Christ, what is holy, the murals, or the temple that makes them holy?

The murals could exist for a thousand more years or they could be removed and sent to another location. The temple will still be a temple, with or without the murals.

There were quite a few changes with the temple's renovation and rededication. The visitor's center also got a HUGE facelift, as did the dormitories (which had been the previous MTC previous to Benemerito's conversion to a new MTC).

The murals are ancillaries. No one need whine about their removal.
You must think like the carpenter that cut the doorway in Leonardo da Vinci's "The Last Supper."

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Niemand
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Re: Salt Lake Temple Rebuild

Post by Niemand »

TheDuke wrote: August 30th, 2022, 7:19 pm I have been to most of the beautiful cathedrals, Notre Dame, St Peters, St Pauls, Brussels, Madrid, Velencia, Milan, Florence, Heidelberg, St Denis, Westminster abbey, Sevilla, Cordoba, Washington. Most old, all beautiful, seldom had interiors redone., outside stones often cleaned and resurfaced due to pollution.
In the 1990s, there was a fashion for sand blasting a lot of stonework, which helped remove the grime from many old European buildings... however the black layer was also natural waterproofing which took time to come back, and it proved not so good on finer detail and sculpture.

The big horror story was Rosslyn Chapel (as featured in the Da Vinci Code), an amazing place with possible evidence of visits to the Americas pre-Columbus. It had some water ingress so some wiseacre decided to cover some of the stone with some kind of concrete layer. Unfortunately this has trashed some of the detail in some places and they struggle to remove it.

But you're right, mostly exterior work. Sometimes indoor whitewash is redone etc.

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Niemand
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Re: Salt Lake Temple Rebuild

Post by Niemand »

Subcomandante wrote: August 30th, 2022, 7:35 pm In the end the murals don't matter. To paraphrase Christ, what is holy, the murals, or the temple that makes them holy?

The murals could exist for a thousand more years or they could be removed and sent to another location. The temple will still be a temple, with or without the murals.

There were quite a few changes with the temple's renovation and rededication. The visitor's center also got a HUGE facelift, as did the dormitories (which had been the previous MTC previous to Benemerito's conversion to a new MTC).

The murals are ancillaries. No one need whine about their removal.
They do matter. A lot of time and hardwork (dare I say love) were spent putting those in, and they are part of what makes that an historical building with its individual character, rather than another McNelson drive thru cinema. The artwork is up there to honour God. It may not be the focus of worship – and shouldn't be in the way the Christus is fast becoming, or like the Catholics – but it represents an attempt to beautify a shrine to God and to draw patrons thoughts towards what is going on there. When I go through Preston Temple, my local one, my attention is drawn to air vents, drinking fountains and light fittings before the film comes on – not very edifying.

You can't remove murals easily, because they are pinned to a wall, and they are also designed for a specific space. The idea that they can just be ripped off and pinned up elsewhere is nonsense, they will always lose something. They are not like paintings which are fixed onto the wall by a hook and wire.

silverado
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Re: Salt Lake Temple Rebuild

Post by silverado »

Niemand wrote: August 31st, 2022, 4:13 am
Subcomandante wrote: August 30th, 2022, 7:35 pm In the end the murals don't matter. To paraphrase Christ, what is holy, the murals, or the temple that makes them holy?

The murals could exist for a thousand more years or they could be removed and sent to another location. The temple will still be a temple, with or without the murals.

There were quite a few changes with the temple's renovation and rededication. The visitor's center also got a HUGE facelift, as did the dormitories (which had been the previous MTC previous to Benemerito's conversion to a new MTC).

The murals are ancillaries. No one need whine about their removal.
They do matter. A lot of time and hardwork (dare I say love) were spent putting those in, and they are part of what makes that an historical building with its individual character, rather than another McNelson drive thru cinema. The artwork is up there to honour God. It may not be the focus of worship – and shouldn't be in the way the Christus is fast becoming, or like the Catholics – but it represents an attempt to beautify a shrine to God and to draw patrons thoughts towards what is going on there. When I go through Preston Temple, my local one, my attention is drawn to air vents, drinking fountains and light fittings before the film comes on – not very edifying.

You can't remove murals easily, because they are pinned to a wall, and they are also designed for a specific space. The idea that they can just be ripped off and pinned up elsewhere is nonsense, they will always lose something. They are not like paintings which are fixed onto the wall by a hook and wire.
Well said! Niemand!

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TheDuke
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Re: Salt Lake Temple Rebuild

Post by TheDuke »

I always felt the SLC temple was true art and special. Operative word now seems to be "was", I mean destroying the murals is ................. no words come to mind ............................

EvanLM
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Re: Salt Lake Temple Rebuild

Post by EvanLM »

When were the murals in the Manti Utah Temple repainted?
Murals in the Manti Utah Temple were repainted in the 1940s when the deterioration of wall plaster meant the garden and world room murals by Danquart Weggeland and C.C.A. Christensen could not be saved.
Manti Utah Temple | ChurchofJesusChristTemples.org

churchofjesuschristtemples.org/manti-utah-temple/
Search for: When were the murals in the Manti Utah Temple repainted?
What happened to the mural in the Salt Lake Temple?
© Provided by Salt Lake Tribune (Image courtesy of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) An artistic rendering of the renovated garden room in the Salt Lake Temple, December 2019. The church says the mural had to be removed as part of the temple renovation.


what do you think removed means?

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Niemand
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Re: Salt Lake Temple Rebuild

Post by Niemand »

TheDuke wrote: August 31st, 2022, 9:18 am I always felt the SLC temple was true art and special. Operative word now seems to be "was", I mean destroying the murals is ................. no words come to mind ............................
I can think of a few words and phrases. Here are some of the more polite ones:

Crass, tasteless, mindless, philistine, insensitive, inappropriate, distasteful, moronic, irreparable vandalism, vulgar, gauche, ignorant, stupid, destructive, control-freakery, caesaropapist, a dumb move, reflective (of the minds of those who ordered it), cultural revolutionary, dismissive, inauthentic, megalomaniacal, hyper-correlative to an anal level, an embarrassment to the church, a disgrace to future generations etc etc

And that's without going into all the terms from a spiritual or theological point of view.

The only things i don't mind going are the inverted pentagrams because I think they give the wrong impression. But I would never have them removed because they are historical.

silverado
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Re: Salt Lake Temple Rebuild

Post by silverado »

Niemand wrote: August 31st, 2022, 4:18 pm
TheDuke wrote: August 31st, 2022, 9:18 am I always felt the SLC temple was true art and special. Operative word now seems to be "was", I mean destroying the murals is ................. no words come to mind ............................
I can think of a few words and phrases. Here are some of the more polite ones:

Crass, tasteless, mindless, philistine, insensitive, inappropriate, distasteful, moronic, irreparable vandalism, vulgar, gauche, ignorant, stupid, destructive, control-freakery, caesaropapist, a dumb move, reflective (of the minds of those who ordered it), cultural revolutionary, dismissive, inauthentic, megalomaniacal, hyper-correlative to an anal level, an embarrassment to the church, a disgrace to future generations etc etc

And that's without going into all the terms from a spiritual or theological point of view.

The only things i don't mind going are the inverted pentagrams because I think they give the wrong impression. But I would never have them removed because they are historical.
An appropriate choice of words.

silverado
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Re: Salt Lake Temple Rebuild

Post by silverado »

EvanLM wrote: August 31st, 2022, 3:48 pm When were the murals in the Manti Utah Temple repainted?
Murals in the Manti Utah Temple were repainted in the 1940s when the deterioration of wall plaster meant the garden and world room murals by Danquart Weggeland and C.C.A. Christensen could not be saved.
Manti Utah Temple | ChurchofJesusChristTemples.org

churchofjesuschristtemples.org/manti-utah-temple/
Search for: When were the murals in the Manti Utah Temple repainted?
What happened to the mural in the Salt Lake Temple?
© Provided by Salt Lake Tribune (Image courtesy of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) An artistic rendering of the renovated garden room in the Salt Lake Temple, December 2019. The church says the mural had to be removed as part of the temple renovation.


what do you think removed means?
Removed could mean painted over. Or it might mean cut out and the walls taken somewhere else. The murals are so big it would not be possible to move them in one piece. They are on lathe and plaster. They would have to be cut up. They say parts of them are to be displayed elsewhere, it won't be as good as seeing them in the space and with the lighting they were painted for.
With film now it wont be necessary to move room to room. Somewhere I read that the moving from room to room and facing a different direction in each room had special meaning. That is gone now.

Lizzy60
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Re: Salt Lake Temple Rebuild

Post by Lizzy60 »

In the Salt Lake Temple the patrons also went higher in elevation as they moved from room to room. I remember the beautiful staircases leading to ever more beautiful rooms. There were elevators for those needing them.

So much symbolism has been lost in all the temples.

silverado
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Re: Salt Lake Temple Rebuild

Post by silverado »

History, beauty and symbolism lost. But now twice as many patrons can sit in one spot and watch the movie just like in any other temple- seems like a good trade off.

silverado
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Re: Salt Lake Temple Rebuild

Post by silverado »

December 4, 2019 the church released several interior renderings showing the murals in place and said they "indicate the careful and elegant approach we are taking in the renovation of this house of the Lord." Renovate means restore.

By March 12, 2021 the murals had already been "carefully photographed and documented before removal, and some of the original portions are being preserved in the church's archives." Some of them- so the rest were destroyed?

A little more than a year after saying they were restoring them, they had already cataloged and removed (mostly destroyed?) them. That was a quick turnaround.

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Kingdom of ZION
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Re: Salt Lake Temple Rebuild

Post by Kingdom of ZION »

Niemand wrote: August 31st, 2022, 4:13 am
Subcomandante wrote: August 30th, 2022, 7:35 pm In the end the murals don't matter. To paraphrase Christ, what is holy, the murals, or the temple that makes them holy?

The murals could exist for a thousand more years or they could be removed and sent to another location. The temple will still be a temple, with or without the murals.

There were quite a few changes with the temple's renovation and rededication. The visitor's center also got a HUGE facelift, as did the dormitories (which had been the previous MTC previous to Benemerito's conversion to a new MTC).

The murals are ancillaries. No one need whine about their removal.
They do matter. A lot of time and hardwork (dare I say love) were spent putting those in, and they are part of what makes that an historical building with its individual character, rather than another McNelson drive thru cinema. The artwork is up there to honour God. It may not be the focus of worship – and shouldn't be in the way the Christus is fast becoming, or like the Catholics – but it represents an attempt to beautify a shrine to God and to draw patrons thoughts towards what is going on there. When I go through Preston Temple, my local one, my attention is drawn to air vents, drinking fountains and light fittings before the film comes on – not very edifying.

You can't remove murals easily, because they are pinned to a wall, and they are also designed for a specific space. The idea that they can just be ripped off and pinned up elsewhere is nonsense, they will always lose something. They are not like paintings which are fixed onto the wall by a hook and wire.
I feel everyone is missing the point here. Not that we need to discuss whether these were Tapestries or Murals, which they are the latter, but that there was only two Temples left that were Temples, in those two Temples, the Manti and Salt Lake Temple, they had a Holy of Holies, verses being just an Endowment House. This is now beginning to come into question!

Yes, these Holy of Holies were defuncted, no Altar in them, having been removed years and years before, or for that matter, having had anyone actually trying to use them for the purpose they were built.

The problem with the movie production endowment is this knowledge or portions of this knowledge should all be conveyed by initiated sons and daughters to uninitiated. That is how Priesthood functions, administering to others, not through movies.

It would be like the Jews building their third Temple, and then after a while, they decide rather then actually offering the daily sacrifices, to just making a beautiful Hollywood production and show it to Temple attendees rather than offering up commanded Sacrifices. They could also at the same time, tear down the veil that covers the Holy of Holies, to add the extra space to their Holy Room. You might remember what it says will happen when they stop the daily sacrifice, it will set up the Abomination of Desolation.

I see real big problems with substitutions and alterations to ordinances! Same old story, different day...

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gruden2.0
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Re: Salt Lake Temple Rebuild

Post by gruden2.0 »

Subcomandante wrote: August 30th, 2022, 7:35 pm
In the end the murals don't matter. To paraphrase Christ, what is holy, the murals, or the temple that makes them holy?

The murals could exist for a thousand more years or they could be removed and sent to another location. The temple will still be a temple, with or without the murals.

There were quite a few changes with the temple's renovation and rededication. The visitor's center also got a HUGE facelift, as did the dormitories (which had been the previous MTC previous to Benemerito's conversion to a new MTC).

The murals are ancillaries. No one need whine about their removal.
Sure, the murals don't make them holy, however, the Lord respects the sacrifices people make to erect something beautiful for worship of the Lord. God expects people's best efforts when building a temple, and the murals remind us of that, in addition to the teachings they depict, which relate to the purpose of the room.

It's a bleak world you live in, SC.

larsenb
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Re: Salt Lake Temple Rebuild

Post by larsenb »

Atrasado wrote: August 27th, 2022, 12:08 am
David13 wrote: August 26th, 2022, 11:37 pm I also know that Utah is not earthquake country.
Unless I'm mistaken, Utah is earthquake country. The Wasatch fault ran 30 feet from where I used to live in Utah and I've heard that it's capable of at least an 8 and it's decades overdue. I don't think an eight would be a good thing with Utah's geology. It seems like there are too many homes built on sand and gravel and too many steep, rocky mountains ready to slide onto things. Maybe you've heard different?
Estimates of past earthquakes on the various segments of the Wasatch fault, as judged by disrupted soil strata, set the big ones at around 7.0 Richter, plus or minus.

Last I heard/read, the Salt Lake segment earthquake frequency estimates, indicate about a 50% probability for one of these big ones occurring on the Salt Lake segment in the next 50 years or so. This based on: "The average repeat time of Big Ones on the Salt Lake City segment is about 1,300–1,500 years. The last one occurred around 1,400 years ago." from: https://ussc.utah.gov/pages/view.php?re ... bs=show&k=&#

EvanLM
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Re: Salt Lake Temple Rebuild

Post by EvanLM »

when the earthquake proof stuff is done then the horn can be placed on Moroni's hand again, right?

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CaptainM
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Re: Salt Lake Temple Rebuild

Post by CaptainM »

25 And there shall be upon every high mountain, and upon every high hill, rivers and streams of waters in the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall. (Isaiah 30)

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven heavens departed opened as a scroll is opened when it is rolled together; and every mountain, and island, were was moved out of their its places place. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? (Revelation 6)

In Christ. Best wishes...

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