The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

[Obeone]

But Adam didn't really, Eve chose and Adam followed along to obey the other commandments (be with Eve, have children, etc....).

Even if Eve had fallen, Adam should have resisted the temptation of Satan through her.
Then God would have given Adam another wife who would have listened to God in this thing.

"Thou shalt be left alone man in the Garden of Eden" was a Satan's lie communicated through Eve.

"I will partake that men might be" was also a Satan's lie spoken by Adam who was deceived by it.

Men might be, and much better too if Adam obeyed the Father. As I said, then he would have had Millennium like conditions right off the bat, and no fall.

[Obeone]

But at the time Abraham attempted to sacrifice Isaac, the command to not kill had not been revoked. It was only after he showed he was willing to disobey that previous commandment that the Lord told him to stop.

The blanket commandment not to kill was revoked when God commanded Abraham to kill his son.
And that commandment in turn was also revoked when God commanded Abraham not to kill his son.

Math. It all ads up.

God does not, and cannot contradict Himself. There are no exceptions to this rule.

[Sarah]

But at the time Abraham attempted to sacrifice Isaac, the command to not kill had not been revoked. It was only after he showed he was willing to disobey that previous commandment that the Lord told him to stop.

The blanket commandment not to kill was revoked when God commanded Abraham to kill his son.
And that commandment in turn was also revoked when God commanded Abraham not to kill his son.

Math. It all ads up.

God does not, and cannot contradict Himself. There are no exceptions to this rule.

I think that the general commandment to not kill was not revoked with Abraham. He still was under that command, in that he couldn't kill whomever ever he wanted. It was a case of receiving an additional commandment that violated the first, but was an exception to violate the general commandment because it was an additional commandment. I think we can look at the commands in the garden the same way. They had two commandments, and they had to violate one in order to obey the other.

[thaabit]

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.
24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.
25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.
(2 Nephi 2:22–25)

Seems fairly clear that without the Fall, there would be no men. A higher law or commandment supersedes a lower one. Eve, in her wisdom, disobeyed a lower law to fulfill a higher one. This necessitated Adam following her. You can argue that they did it too soon, but I am unaware of any scriptural backing to that.

[Peeps]

I believe we had already fallen in the preexistence. Thirds means 3 parts, so if one third knowingly followed Lucifer/satan into rebellion, and one third remained in Heaven because they chose to keep their first estate, then we are probably the third that all got deceived just like Eve, by the lie that we would become like the LORD God if we entered mortality.

Abraham 3 even says that we willingly traded our first estate to come to earth because we thought we could get something better.

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God (this was Lucifer, IMO, who wanted to be like God by exalting himself like it says in Isaiah ch. 14), and he said unto those who were with him (the knowingly rebellious third): We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
(this was probably the lie, for Jude 16 says "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." Chains in this instance, are defined in Strong's as "ligament of the body." That makes all of us like the younger son who wanted his inheritance early, and went out and spent it on riotous living, Jesus Christ is the "fatted calf," and the Father is the one waiting by the window in the parable. https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/jde ... nc_1167006 )

27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man (Jesus Christ): Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.

28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.


That got us cast down into the lowest parts of the earth, because that is where we came from before being born, according to Psalms 139.

13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

15. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

We were the stones of fire in Ezekiel 28 in the preexistence. Psalms 104 says:
1 Bless the Lord, O my soul. O Lord my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.

2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:

3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds His chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:

4 WHO MAKETH HIS ANGELS SPIRITS; HIS MINISTERS A FLAMING FIRE..."

We apparently did not want to be spirits, nor His ministers of flaming fire. We wanted to have flesh bodies instead, and that is what got us kicked out of Heaven.

viewtopic.php?p=1271956#p1271956

So partaking the forbidden fruit was something that we all had already done in the preexistence by choosing to have a flesh body. That was the forbidden fruit, so it just had to play out in the flesh. That is why the serpent was allowed to be in the Garden, along with the Tree of Knowledge.

Friend, you are fully inverted in your understanding. The one "that was like unto God" was Christ, not Lucifer.

Need I say more?

Jesus Christ is the one "like the Son of man," in verse 27 because He came through Adam's lineage, being the literal Son of Man through the seed of the woman that bruises the head of the serpent, to redeem us from the fall.

Matthew 16
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

That is Jesus Christ.

Reread verse 24, the one who was described as "like unto God" is Lucifer, because he had exalted himself. Isaiah ch. 14 tells us that is likely who that was.

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.


2 Corinthians 11:
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Three pages and I’m still trying to wrap my brain around the idea that you guys still think they were having fruit cocktail in the garden…

[Baurak Ale]

1. False; they could have had no seed without blood:

That contradicts the commandment that God gave them, and therefore is false.
They COULD have had seed without the fall, because that is EXACTLY what God commanded them to do, and He does not give impossible commandments, or He would cease to be God.

No, they could not have seed without the fall because blood is required to produce physical bodies:

1 Corinthians 15:42 – 49:

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

When Adam and Eve came into the garden, they had no blood but blood entered their systems as part of the fall. Blood precipitates death and is a function of mortality, but it also enables the creation of physical bodies. Without the fall, Adam and Eve could only generate spirit bodies.

I feel like you've printed up a bunch of 1 Nephi 3:7 stickers and used them to cover up parts of Genesis that you don't like or understand. The Elohim perfectly understood the necessity of the fall and set up a scandalon for the conditions for mortality to happen without actually commanding Adam or Eve to violate the laws that would have kept their bodies celestial. But again, even despite its genius perfections, those circumstances are allegorical and not fully reflective of what actually took place in the beginning.

Moses 5:10 -11:

10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.
11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

The same analysis applies here:
"we never should have had seed" is not the same "we never COULD have had seed."
What is the difference?
One is a lie, and the other is not.
"Should have" means choice. "Could have" means physical ability.

This is not true and you have misapplied your understanding of modern grammar to Early Modern English. Go look in the 1828 Webster's Dictionary, if you must, but should was considered the preterite of shall and expressed "simply that an event would take place, on some condition or under circumstances." It is not a lie. It is a statement of fact based on the fulfillment of the conditions expressed. In this case, it is the transgression that is expressed as the necessary condition to produce the effect of having seed.

Furthermore
I think you would agree that all scriptures must be taken in context with all the other words of God.

So if you take Adam and Eve's words in context they actually say:

Moses 5:10 – 11 in context
"10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for [despite] of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.
11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: [We were so disobedient and foolish, that] Were it not for our transgression [which forced us to learn obedience through a punishment of a curse] we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient. [For there verily was a better way for us in the garden were we willing to listen to God more than to the devil]."

I do agree that context is absolutely necessary when interpreting the scriptures; however, I vehemently reject the insertion of brackets containing wording in agreement with an assumed interpretation as constituting said context.

You cannot replace because with despite and pretend that you are preserving context. Be academically honest and only use brackets to supply basic information (such as pronoun antecedents) and not change the wording of original passages completely. If you intend the latter then don't call it context.

Next

But a world that does not present sufficient opposition in the form of temptation and evil cannot produce gods, which is Jehovah’s work.

What will you then do with those in the Millennium? They will live in a "paradisaical glory," without ever knowing the lone and dreary world, and they will grow up "without sin unto salvation."

The truth is, one does not have to fall to experience a fullness of opposition. It can be found in ANY world. Father experienced greater opposition than Jesus, yet he did not live in a fallen world, for example.

They in the Millennium will have all the opposition they need without a fallen world. So also could have Adam, had he listened to the Father.

No, children in the millennium if they are not presented with the bitter cannot be said to have chosen the sweet and earn the associated reward. I did not say that there are not worlds where there is less opposition, and if there are then they do not produce gods. My understanding of the millennium is that Satan is bound only according to the righteousness of the people. A mortal child born during that time would therefore still have to choose God over Satan to bind him personally as well. And this is what those noble spirits are prophesied to do up until the little season at the end when people begin again to choose Satan over God. But, again, without the choice to be bad no one can be called good.

I'm not sure what you mean about the Father undergoing greater opposition than the Son and yet not living on a fallen world. You'll have to expand on that for, if you don't mind.

[EvanLM]

Believing there was no other way was not the reason why Adam fell.

Adam fell because of pride.

In a way you are right.

Adam fell because he believed a lie that there was no other way that men might be, and because he chose his fallen wife over God, for which he was cursed with death and fall, and his posterity with him.

A lesson in what not to do.

His wife believed a lie that there was no other way for her to open her eyes and to know good and evil.

If they resisted the temptation sufficiently, their eyes would have been opened without transgression, and they would have had posterity without a fall, precisely as God commanded them.

no, I think htye were told tha they would remain in the same state, without progress, if they didn't eat the fruit. Eating the fruit represents coming to this earth or being mortal. Coming to this earth, which is the lowest kingdom represents the fall from a godlike state of spirit which could live in the presence of God to a mortal state which is out of the presence of God.

the only place that is lower than this kingdom is hell and the only way to gain the experience of this kingdom and ascend to higher kingdoms with a mortal body, was to fall to the lowest of the three kingdoms

so here we are

[Church_of_the_Lamb]

The first commandment from God was to have children
The second commandment was to eat of the fruit but not the forbidden fruit


Eve was tempted and ate, Adam ate so he wouldn't be separated from Eve. Adam fell that men might be ,he wouldn't have children without Eve who would be cast out for sin and leave Adam alone in the garden.

[TheDuke]

But Adam didn't really, Eve chose and Adam followed along to obey the other commandments (be with Eve, have children, etc....).

Even if Eve had fallen, Adam should have resisted the temptation of Satan through her.
Then God would have given Adam another wife who would have listened to God in this thing.

"Thou shalt be left alone man in the Garden of Eden" was a Satan's lie communicated through Eve.

"I will partake that men might be" was also a Satan's lie spoken by Adam who was deceived by it.

Men might be, and much better too if Adam obeyed the Father. As I said, then he would have had Millennium like conditions right off the bat, and no fall.

I get the feeling that you don't have much of an understanding of the eternal nature of a celestial marriage covenant. It is the highest covenant you can make, it supersedes all other covenants. You don't just walk away from it, that is if you're serious about being like the father. It is where you transcend from being a single contributor to a god-like partnership.

[Sarah]

The first commandment from God was to have children
The second commandment was to eat of the fruit but not the forbidden fruit


Eve was tempted and ate, Adam ate so he wouldn't be separated from Eve. Adam fell that men might be ,he wouldn't have children without Eve who would be cast out for sin and leave Adam alone in the garden.

Adam understood he had to eat just like Eve understood she had to eat.

[Original_Intent]

The Fall of Adam, an Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

I think these three are closely linked.

How?

The Fall of Adam was caused by an ancient lie.

What lie?

That “there was no other way” for him in the garden but to transgress.

Why is that a lie?

Proof:

1. God does not give impossible commandments (1 Nephi 3:7)
2. God commanded Adam and Eve to have children AND not to partake of the forbidden fruit. Which means:
3. They COULD do it. See point (1).

End of proof.

And redemption of Zion?

Zion cannot be redeemed from the fall while believing the very lie that caused its fall in the first place.

It makes a lot of sense to me that when Adam visits the Church in Adam-ondi-Ahman, he will end this lie that has been with us for too long.

Then Zion will be redeemed and New Jerusalem built.

C.S. Lewis' science fiction trilogy envisions how a planet with no fall might look. From Wikipedia:

Out of the Silent Planet (1938), set mostly on Mars (Malacandra). In this book, Dr. Elwin Ransom is kidnapped and transported to Mars. While there, he meets the planet's various inhabitants and discovers that Earth is exiled from the rest of the Solar System.
Perelandra (1943). Also known as Voyage to Venus. Here, Dr. Ransom journeys to an unspoiled Venus (Perelandra), where he participates in a good vs. evil battle.
That Hideous Strength (1945), set on Earth. A scientific think tank called the N.I.C.E. (The National Institute of Co-ordinated Experiments) is secretly in touch with demonic entities who plan to assume control of the Earth.

[EvanLM]

this has everything to do with the state of descent and ascent and the best explanation of this pattern that I have read is by Gileadi. Adam and Eve both knew that they would have to descend in order to ascend. Gileadi says that the descent is aways equal to the ascent. the lower the descent, the greater the ascent.

when christ submitted himself in this world to the descent of atonement and crucifixion then he also knew that he would ascent to Godhood. Peter didn't completely understand this concept when he wanted to stop the descent. Job descented to sickness then ascented to greater. this happens in the earth to people who want to ascend.

so it was necessary for us to ascend to godhood . . but that ascent is continued with further descents and ascents until we reach that godhood.

There are so many lessons going on in this parable.

satan thought that he was running the program and he wanted power over adam and eve and the plan of salvation. He tells Eve some truths and some lies. He claims that he has said nothing about father to Eve which means . . . I am taking credit on my own and I am running this program.

of course, we understand that God was actually running it

satan tells God that he had seen this on other planets . . . which means, basically he knew the plan of salvation and was hijacking it form God

what lesson we learn from the parable is that satan will directly tempt us or will get one of our fellowmen to tempt us. In fact, its seems that Eve did a better job on Adam than satan did. Parabolically, Eve was trying to get another mortal to sin with her and was using everything she could think of. There is nonsense in sin and following satan and all kinds of means devised by mortals and satan to get us to follow.

Satan didn't lie about the only way but he did lie about not dying becoming God, etc. Since that didn't happen by eating fruit(making a decision) but by a series of events we become Gods. and Adam and Eve did die in 3 ways, spiritually until they repented and then removed from the presence of God and then mortally death. satan just didn't bother to tell them that repentence, and the atonement removes all of the deaths. So their faith had to carry them cuz they knew the only way for them to have bodies and children was to eat.

I think the idea that Eve wanted kids so she pushed it, is so absurd. She and Adam had already been created by God who used the dust of the earth rather than procreation. Powerful . . created mortals not like we mortals do . . by their word and dust. And wasn't eve's curse to bear children vs the way God's make mortals. she probably knew this would be the way to make bodies for God's spirits

I rather think that Adam and Eve procrastinated because they knew that their decision to come to earth(eat of the fruit) would seal the punishment and the blessing of further progress on the spiritbrothers and sisters that were created for this earth. Either to get a body thus opportunity for progress or to be a spirit and never have chance to change your mind. I think that was a hard decision to end the pre existence.

Of course the millenium will end this earth life and we will go to first resurrection which is further progress or stop at second resurrection and inherit this kingdom with no chance to change our mind. The Lord has set times so we aren't eternally in this world unless we choose . . which is also in this parable.

i have a feeling that you are referring to the endowment parables in the temple, in your post, so I am sorry to take liberty. So we see in the scriptures that Adam and Eve repent immediately and honestly confess what happened. Satan doesn't repent. the preexistence ends and satan claims the spirits since he cannot move the plan of salvation and give mortal life like God can.

If they had not repented at that point then god could have called someone else. But, god knowing all things chose great spirits that he knew would repent and not be lost by the temptations. Just as he trust all of us to not be lost by coming to this descent or earth life, but gives us our agency and a savior. He trusted Jesus Christ as well with more than I can imagine. He trusted Moses and Abraham and many others.

so I was sure that this is about descant and ascent when prophets, I guess, added to the endowment two scriptures out of the PofGP. Adam and Eve speak the words from this scripture. they CLEARLY tell that their DECENT led to the ASCENT. Read them prayerfully.

All of us who came to this earth KNEW that we would have to descend to it in order to ascend and we are not guilty of Adams transgresssion which started the human race on this earth. But we came here with faith and trust that God would provide the way for us to ascend. We are just given the greater knowledge of how this plan all works cuz God loves us. we are judged individually. Moses 5:10-11

check out Gileadi's podcasts on ascent and descent . . . You will have to be willing to go through a lot of this pattern, especially on this earth, if you want to be God.

[EvanLM]

btw: the only things that satan was granted was. . .posession of bodies by his spirits, power over gold and silver and power over tyrants and armies

I haven't read in the scriptures or heard by a prophet that he was given power to know us personally or to know the thoughts of our minds and hearts . . .I think those were given to Christ and the HG

cuz satan's power is really limited

[EvanLM]

God is also a being who knows the end from the beginning. He knew full well that Adam and Eve would transgress his law and fall. So, why did God place Adam and Eve in the position to fall knowing full well that they would? The reason is because going through this mortal life was and always has been the way to progress from a lesser intelligence to a higher intelligence. God in his infinite wisdom allowed each of us to choose to come to a mortal life so that we could learn good and evil and become like God:

Genesis 3:22
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Satan's plan was to force us all to be good beings. But God rejected that plan because unless man chooses to be a good being in and of himself, he will never become like God. Nobody forces God to be good and never has. God chooses to be a good being in and of himself. We too must learn to choose good over evil in the face of evil to become a good being like God. Free will is critical to the plan of salvation and happiness. This mortal life is a necessity for us to learn good and evil and to learn to choose good over evil in and of ourselves. Only in this way can we become like God to overcome the evil and always choose the good of our own free will and choice.

God knowing that we need to experience good along with evil so that we can learn to prize the good and reject the evil. Yes, some of us take the opposite path and prize evil more than good. But that was a choice that each spirit child of God made. They wanted the opportunity to progress and become like God. Obtaining a knowledge of good and evil allows us to become more like God and by overcoming evil we can become strong and like God. God knew way before hand that Adam and Eve would transgress and fall. God even set up the situation in the garden by allowing Satan and his minions to come to this earth to tempt mankind. He called Jesus before the foundation of this earth to be a Savior so that fallen man could find forgiveness of sin if they would repent and turn unto him. It was all part of the plan and God knew all about it and planned for the fall before the earth ever was by calling and ordaining Jesus Christ to be the Savior of the world.

I think satan's plan was to force us to follow him. false plan since he wasn't given power for salvation.
I think his plan continues on this earth

[EvanLM]

the millenium will be without temptation until the very end. satan will have power to gather his armies(I don't know all the details) and there will be a great war which can be a problem for those who are born in the milllenium. but that will be their great test.

also, God is perfect, had a perfect plan . . . ONLY ONE PLAN, never two or more. If he had more plans then he is NOT God and he is NOT perfect, knowing all. btw he doesn't progress anymore . . .he is perfect . . .he just expresses his work and glory in his creations but they do not make him ascend cuz he is there. . .finished . . done . . perfect

if his creations, us do not reach perfection it doesn't take God away from his perfection . . .

[EvanLM]

The Fall of Adam, an Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

I think these three are closely linked.

How?

The Fall of Adam was caused by an ancient lie.

What lie?

That “there was no other way” for him in the garden but to transgress.

Why is that a lie?

Proof:

1. God does not give impossible commandments (1 Nephi 3:7)
2. God commanded Adam and Eve to have children AND not to partake of the forbidden fruit. Which means:
3. They COULD do it. See point (1).

End of proof.

And redemption of Zion?

Zion cannot be redeemed from the fall while believing the very lie that caused its fall in the first place.

It makes a lot of sense to me that when Adam visits the Church in Adam-ondi-Ahman, he will end this lie that has been with us for too long.

Then Zion will be redeemed and New Jerusalem built.

C.S. Lewis' science fiction trilogy envisions how a planet with no fall might look. From Wikipedia:

Out of the Silent Planet (1938), set mostly on Mars (Malacandra). In this book, Dr. Elwin Ransom is kidnapped and transported to Mars. While there, he meets the planet's various inhabitants and discovers that Earth is exiled from the rest of the Solar System.
Perelandra (1943). Also known as Voyage to Venus. Here, Dr. Ransom journeys to an unspoiled Venus (Perelandra), where he participates in a good vs. evil battle.
That Hideous Strength (1945), set on Earth. A scientific think tank called the N.I.C.E. (The National Institute of Co-ordinated Experiments) is secretly in touch with demonic entities who plan to assume control of the Earth.

you know that CS Lewis was a satanist, right . . check out his buddies as well as his true history . . I'm not sure why there was a pattern of quoting him in GC but whatever

[EvanLM]

But Adam didn't really, Eve chose and Adam followed along to obey the other commandments (be with Eve, have children, etc....).

Even if Eve had fallen, Adam should have resisted the temptation of Satan through her.
Then God would have given Adam another wife who would have listened to God in this thing.

"Thou shalt be left alone man in the Garden of Eden" was a Satan's lie communicated through Eve.

"I will partake that men might be" was also a Satan's lie spoken by Adam who was deceived by it.

Men might be, and much better too if Adam obeyed the Father. As I said, then he would have had Millennium like conditions right off the bat, and no fall.

I get the feeling that you don't have much of an understanding of the eternal nature of a celestial marriage covenant. It is the highest covenant you can make, it supersedes all other covenants. You don't just walk away from it, that is if you're serious about being like the father. It is where you transcend from being a single contributor to a god-like partnership.

You CANNOT become GOD without a woman and man . . . man does not become god singly . . not possible

[EvanLM]

in other words, you're right

[TheDuke]

If a man either doesn't bother to marry or leaves his wife for all but the gravest reasons and gives up on her then it wouldn't seem that becoming like god is in the cards for him in this one eternal round. I say this as a divorced man. I had no choice but to divorce my partner, but I have never, never, never given up on her and will in the end stand at her side in eternity............. Or god will be the one giving the divorce and helping me find another to take her place. To me, in my personal learnings, if you want the eternal blessings you must make the eternal commitment.........Doesn't always work out, some permanent divorces are necessary, I will give you that, not my job to judge........... Just in that case god will let you know to move on and tell you what to do, but I don't think god hands out happy celestial marriages to those who haven't paid the price and earned it.

So if Adam just left Eve be the more righteous, he would have not been worthy of Eve anyway. and would have been alone man in the garden of eden.

[EvanLM]

The partaking of the fruit (forbidden knowledge) was merely premature.

That Adam and Eve would condescend was the initial design and would have happened in some other fashion or in lieu of some other natural decision/outcome. What was not intended was for them to obtain the forbidden knowledge when it wasn’t ripe.....

I read somewhere that the fruit was eaten out of season. We don't know that God wouldn't have prepared a way for them to have children in some other prescribed manner. If I'm not mistaken, during the Millennium of Christ's reign, children will be born and they will grow up and have children--all in a proper season, so to speak.

Children aren’t born in the millennium.

interesting . . I kinda like that idea

[EvanLM]

adam Did Not Comit sin in ating the fruit, for God had Deceed that he should Eat & fall—But in complyance with the Decree he should Die—only he should Die was the saying of the Lord therefore the Lord apointed us to fall & also Redeemed us—for where sin abounded Grace did Much More abound

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ary-1841/3

Adam did not commit sin in partaking the fruit because his eyes were opened only after he partook.
But though it was not a sin, it was a grievous and deadly error, that caused him his life and placed a curse upon himself and his posterity.

Plan A was: resist the temptation, and live in a Millennium right off the bat.
Plan B was: if you choose to disobey, you are cursed and punished, and if you repent, you can be redeemed. But you will be cursed first.

Adam chose wrong. He chose the plan that God forbade.

That Plan B existed did not mean it was recommended. Hell is also a part of the plan, but it is not recommended by God, in fact it is forbidden by Him. People get there against God's advice.

That's what happened to Adam.

There indeed was a better way, because God has spoken it.

right cuz God always gives a penalty in this mortal life that relates to this life and not salvation. then, when we repent, which adam and eve did immediately then he gives us a saviour as he explained to them. The savior's atonement then takes care of the sin as it would be related to our eternal salvation.

The punishment as relating to this mortal life is called "chastisement"

[EvanLM]

in the last days, the punishment for this mortal life is called tribulation and one can avoid it or the sting of it by being faithful

[EvanLM]

also called the refiner's fire of God

[Obeone]

I think that the general commandment to not kill was not revoked with Abraham. He still was under that command, in that he couldn't kill whomever ever he wanted. It was a case of receiving an additional commandment that violated the first, but was an exception to violate the general commandment because it was an additional commandment. I think we can look at the commands in the garden the same way. They had two commandments, and they had to violate one in order to obey the other.

Not at all.

Let me rephrase this: Commandment not to kill Isaac (as part of general commandment) was rescinded. After which the commandment to kill Isaac was also rescinded.

No commandment was broken by Abraham AT ALL.

Why? Because these were sequential commandments with the last overriding previous one.

With Adam it was not the case AT ALL. Commandment not to partake of the forbidden fruit was not rescinded at any time. It was in full force.

So you are incorrect.