King Follet...Wilford and thousands of others must have been on the edges of their seats!

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kirtland r.m.
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King Follet...Wilford and thousands of others must have been on the edges of their seats!

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Fundamental truths of the restoration.

Joseph knows that he does not have long to live. What will he say? He decides to speak in memory of “Beloved Brother King Follet,” who recently died in an accident. Joseph asks the saints to pray that he would have the Holy Ghost and that the Lord would strengthen his lungs.

Joseph knew that he was speaking to converted Protestant Christians who might find his teachings challenging to their assumptions about God. He turned to the first verse of the Bible and showed that his teachings were grounded there, not in Greek philosophy. He taught that the verb translated as created in Genesis 1:1 refers to organizing both spiritual and elemental matter into divine beings with power to become exalted as God is.

From his(own personal experiences and) Hebrew studies and from the Book of Abraham, Joseph knew that the word translated as God in Genesis 1:1 is plural: Gods. Gods created. “The Gods came together & concocked the plan of making the world & the inhabitants,” he said. So Joseph rejected the traditional Christian—but not Biblical—doctrine that God created out of nothing, or ex nihilo. (Although this doctrine of the seperate Father and the Son had been taught openly in the Church from the early 1830's). Wilford and thousands of others must have been on the edges of their seats, if they even had seats.https://www.ldsliving.com/steven-harper ... sy/s/10907
Last edited by kirtland r.m. on August 28th, 2022, 9:59 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Luke
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Re: King Follet,...Wilford and thousands of others must have been on the edges of their seats!

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Sad that people on this forum reject it.

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Redpilled Mormon
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Re: King Follet,...Wilford and thousands of others must have been on the edges of their seats!

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

Luke wrote: August 28th, 2022, 3:05 pm Sad that people on this forum reject it.
Why? It's not salvific, even if it turns out to be true. I see no more reason to mourn someone 'guessing wrong' about this than if they happened to 'guess wrong' about the existence of Bigfoot.

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Luke
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Re: King Follet,...Wilford and thousands of others must have been on the edges of their seats!

Post by Luke »

Redpilled Mormon wrote: August 28th, 2022, 3:26 pm
Luke wrote: August 28th, 2022, 3:05 pm Sad that people on this forum reject it.
Why? It's not salvific, even if it turns out to be true. I see no more reason to mourn someone 'guessing wrong' about this than if they happened to 'guess wrong' about the existence of Bigfoot.
Because what good can come from the rejection of truth?

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TheChristian
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Re: King Follet...Wilford and thousands of others must have been on the edges of their seats!

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We have in Genesis the term Elohim Jehovah, we all know this is Jesus, He is One God, not the Gods Jesus.
Heres another from Genesis.....
And they heard the voice of Jehovah Elohim, walking in the garden in the cool of the day.
It does not say "the voices of many Jehovahs" it speaks of one voice coming from Jehovah Elohim.

Wherefore thou art great, Jehovah Elohim; for there is none like YOU, neither is there any God beside you, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
Note it says YOU, a singular term........

And now, Jehovah Elohim, the word that YOU have spoken
Note again the singular "YOU"

for Jehovah Elohim, my GOD, will be with thee;
Note, that it says GOD, not Gods.

Blessed be Jehovah Elohim, the God of Israel, who alone doeth wondrous things!
Note it says GOD, not Gods,

But Jehovah Elohim is truth; he is the living God, and the King of eternity.
Note, it says Living God, not Gods, and King, not kings

Jacob wrestles with one being, yet that being is referred to as ’elohim

and the angel that appears to Manoah, the father of Samson, is also referred to as ’elohim

The pagan Philistines apply the title ’elohim to their god Dagon. The Moabites, likewise, used the word ’elohim to describe their god Chemosh

Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer the Yahweh of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last, and besides Me there is no ’Elohim”
Jesus is Yahweh, and the King of Israel, also the Redeemer, the First and the Last and He is saying here that besides Him there is no Elohim.........

Heres what the Jews tell us about Elohim.........
The first Name used for God in scripture is Elohim. In form, the word is a masculine plural of a word that looks feminine in the singular (Eloha). The same word (or, according to Maimonides, a homonym of it) is used to refer to princes, judges, other gods, and other powerful beings. This Name is used in scripture when emphasizing God's might, His creative power, and his attributes of justice and rulership.
Heres their sacred proclamation of faith..............
"Here O' Israel, Havayah is our Elokim, Havayah is One."
Here O Israel, yahweh is our Elohim, yahweh is One...

And we all know whom Yahweh is, it is the Lord Jesus, our Elohim......The one true God of Israel.......

As Jesus said to the Church goers of His day.........
"You pour over the Scriptures thinking in them you have eternal life, yet all the time they are testifieing to Me!"
From the very first words of Genesis and thru out the Law and the Prophets and thru out the New testament runs a bright testimony to Jesus our Elohim.............

Elohim manifest in the Flesh, our King, Redeemer and our Alpha and Omega...........
Last edited by TheChristian on August 28th, 2022, 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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TheDuke
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Re: King Follet...Wilford and thousands of others must have been on the edges of their seats!

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If you truly want to understand the concept of exaltation, read the KFD over and over. I read it, then put it down. I was inspired/compelled/commanded if you will to read it again, then again then again. On the fourth or 5 path, having read much of Alaris' writing and other with other studies, the truth of progression was made clear to me. So, clear that in this bit of topics I can personally say "all truth may be circumscribed into one great whole." Anyone who dismisses the teaching in KFD, IMO has at least one more eternal round before claiming the top-level of glory, not salvation (it isn't required to get into the CK, and only some for the second level in CK (requiring some endowment of power) but for the highest level, if you cannot accept and comprehend the basic teachings in the KFD, you are not yet ready for eternal life, which is to know god, not know about him, not love him, not love your neighbor, all those things are necessary for salvation, but for exaltation it is required to "know god". That is to understand him and at the same time tame the natural man (telestial, terrestrial and celestial body) and to do it in the face of opposition (i.e. overcome Satan), but not in the quiet hall of the CK, gee, everything there is easy, not so when faced with opposition however (hence this mortal probation).

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JLHPROF
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Re: King Follet,...Wilford and thousands of others must have been on the edges of their seats!

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Redpilled Mormon wrote: August 28th, 2022, 3:26 pm
Luke wrote: August 28th, 2022, 3:05 pm Sad that people on this forum reject it.
Why? It's not salvific, even if it turns out to be true. I see no more reason to mourn someone 'guessing wrong' about this than if they happened to 'guess wrong' about the existence of Bigfoot.
Joseph's entire point in the discourse is that it IS salvific. "This is life eternal..."

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TheDuke
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Re: King Follet...Wilford and thousands of others must have been on the edges of their seats!

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go ahead worship according to bigfoot!

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Redpilled Mormon
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Re: King Follet,...Wilford and thousands of others must have been on the edges of their seats!

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

JLHPROF wrote: August 28th, 2022, 6:07 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: August 28th, 2022, 3:26 pm
Luke wrote: August 28th, 2022, 3:05 pm Sad that people on this forum reject it.
Why? It's not salvific, even if it turns out to be true. I see no more reason to mourn someone 'guessing wrong' about this than if they happened to 'guess wrong' about the existence of Bigfoot.
Joseph's entire point in the discourse is that it IS salvific. "This is life eternal..."
Can you cite a source on that? Because if Joseph really did say that understanding of this was salvific, that would mean he was definitely a false prophet at that point, since it directly opposes what Christ himself taught as salvific in 3 Nephi 11, with the strong caution that anything more or less taught for salvation was of evil.

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Redpilled Mormon
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Re: King Follet...Wilford and thousands of others must have been on the edges of their seats!

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TheDuke wrote: August 28th, 2022, 7:14 pm go ahead worship according to bigfoot!
:) Made me chuckle. No, you don't have to guess right on whether bigfoot or aliens or the loch ness monster exists or not to get into heaven. Such a notion would be absurd if we are to worship a God who is Just. It's equally nonsensical to suppose we have to guess right on the number of hairs in Christ's left eyebrow to be saved. Knowing and comprehending the true nature and substance of God is simply not possible for a mortal man, and it's absurd to think that this would somehow be a requirement for salvation.

Anyone who is walking around saying 'oh yeah, I totally got this whole God thing down and figured out, I comprehend all aspects of God' is delusional to the point he might want to check a mirror to see how far up his own behind his head is stuck.

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TheDuke
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Re: King Follet...Wilford and thousands of others must have been on the edges of their seats!

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thanks, I was being sarcastic. And are correct about our knowledge, we know little of the way god lives. But, my personal relationship with god is such that the more that I learn about him, via JS his contemporaries is that his statements like, same sociality exists here as in heaven and everything on this earth is a type (why else test us if it isn't an attribute or weakness to over come in the CK (marriage, love chastity, faith, enduring, patience, long suffering, etc...) all these things are types of god's life. He is not as abstract as Satan would have us believe. He is after all jus a man (purified, all knowing, dwells in eternal burnings) but just a man with a wife and kids in a celestial society on a celestial world. BTW I do not believe that being "begotten of" like Jesus is same as "begotten to" like us. So, I feel that my eternal mom and dad are more worried about getting me and my siblings back that creating worlds without number and being a king of kings doing all that kingly crap that is necessary. But that is just what I've been shown, mileage varies.

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CaptainM
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Re: King Follet...Wilford and thousands of others must have been on the edges of their seats!

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An excerpt from One Who Is Watching’s book Solving the Prophet Puzzle, Chapter 22. For what it is worth…

Rejecting Truth

‘One of the truly shocking things I discovered during my quest to better understand the true history of Mormonism, is that after the fulness of the Gospel was rejected, the heavens slowly began closing and the Lord began covering the eyes of the prophets and seers of the LDS restoration, just as Isaiah had prophesied:

For behold, the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep. For behold, ye have closed your eyes, and ye have rejected the prophets; and your rulers, and the seers hath he covered because of your iniquity.(2 Nephi 27)

The truths that had been revealed by revelation during the revelatory sweet spot of the restoration began to be replaced with false doctrine in fulfillment with prophecy:

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. (2 Tim 4)

Within a decade of when the Lectures on Faith was canonized, Joseph Smith began contradicting the truths about the nature and character of God that are in the Bible. Interestingly, he also contradicted what he and Sidney Rigdon had presented in the Lectures on Faith, and he also contradicted what was taught about God in the Book of Mormon and the revelations he’d brought forth.

During the final months, before his martyrdom, he actually taught that God the Father is an anthropomorphic God (with a body of flesh and bones) who had previously been a mortal man. He taught that the Father is not the first God and that there were many Gods before Him. He taught that God was not from everlasting to everlasting. This contradicted both the Bible, as well as the scriptures that Joseph Smith had been instrumental in bringing forth.

Following the succession crisis, once a large portion of the Saints migrated to Utah, Brigham Young began teaching other heresies about the nature of God and he even denied the virgin birth as it is described in the Bible and Book of Mormon.

The Latter-day Saints have now replaced the original truths about the true nature and character of God with fables. My research has led me to believe that virtually every major doctrine of the Gospel has been changed since the early days of the LDS restoration. Even the saving ordinances of the Gospel have been changed as Isaiah noted. It is disturbing to realize that Mormons are taught a false idea of the true nature and character of God. There is a passage in modern revelation that informs us that those who don’t repent can have the light, which they have already received, taken away from them:

. . . he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven; And he that repents not, from him shall be taken even the light which he has received; for my Spirit shall not always strive with man, saith the Lord of Hosts.(D&C 1)

The concept that a person can have their knowledge of the truth taken from them is a fascinating one. The Book of Mormon also teaches that truth can be taken away from those who are unwilling to receive more truth, “. . . from them that shall say, we have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have."

In Christ. Best wishes…

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Shawn Henry
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Re: King Follet,...Wilford and thousands of others must have been on the edges of their seats!

Post by Shawn Henry »

Luke wrote: August 28th, 2022, 3:49 pm Because what good can come from the rejection of truth?
You should ask that question to all the saints present who rejected the truth of the Bible, BoM, and D&C in favor new doctrine for itching ears that contradicts canon.

onefour1
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Re: King Follet...Wilford and thousands of others must have been on the edges of their seats!

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TheChristian wrote: August 28th, 2022, 4:44 pm We have in Genesis the term Elohim Jehovah, we all know this is Jesus, He is One God, not the Gods Jesus.
Heres another from Genesis.....
And they heard the voice of Jehovah Elohim, walking in the garden in the cool of the day.
It does not say "the voices of many Jehovahs" it speaks of one voice coming from Jehovah Elohim.

Wherefore thou art great, Jehovah Elohim; for there is none like YOU, neither is there any God beside you, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
Note it says YOU, a singular term........

And now, Jehovah Elohim, the word that YOU have spoken
Note again the singular "YOU"

for Jehovah Elohim, my GOD, will be with thee;
Note, that it says GOD, not Gods.

Blessed be Jehovah Elohim, the God of Israel, who alone doeth wondrous things!
Note it says GOD, not Gods,

But Jehovah Elohim is truth; he is the living God, and the King of eternity.
Note, it says Living God, not Gods, and King, not kings

Jacob wrestles with one being, yet that being is referred to as ’elohim

and the angel that appears to Manoah, the father of Samson, is also referred to as ’elohim

The pagan Philistines apply the title ’elohim to their god Dagon. The Moabites, likewise, used the word ’elohim to describe their god Chemosh

Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer the Yahweh of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last, and besides Me there is no ’Elohim”
Jesus is Yahweh, and the King of Israel, also the Redeemer, the First and the Last and He is saying here that besides Him there is no Elohim.........

Heres what the Jews tell us about Elohim.........
The first Name used for God in scripture is Elohim. In form, the word is a masculine plural of a word that looks feminine in the singular (Eloha). The same word (or, according to Maimonides, a homonym of it) is used to refer to princes, judges, other gods, and other powerful beings. This Name is used in scripture when emphasizing God's might, His creative power, and his attributes of justice and rulership.
Heres their sacred proclamation of faith..............
"Here O' Israel, Havayah is our Elokim, Havayah is One."
Here O Israel, yahweh is our Elohim, yahweh is One...

And we all know whom Yahweh is, it is the Lord Jesus, our Elohim......The one true God of Israel.......

As Jesus said to the Church goers of His day.........
"You pour over the Scriptures thinking in them you have eternal life, yet all the time they are testifieing to Me!"
From the very first words of Genesis and thru out the Law and the Prophets and thru out the New testament runs a bright testimony to Jesus our Elohim.............

Elohim manifest in the Flesh, our King, Redeemer and our Alpha and Omega...........
And in Genesis it also says,

Genesis 1:26
26 And God (Elohim (plural)) said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: King Follet,...Wilford and thousands of others must have been on the edges of their seats!

Post by Shawn Henry »

JLHPROF wrote: August 28th, 2022, 6:07 pm Joseph's entire point in the discourse is that it IS salvific. "This is life eternal..."
That was the entire purpose of LoF actually. The doctrine portion of the D&C that let's the saints know the nature of God because you have to know his nature in order to worship him. Thank goodness for canon that allows us to recognize false doctrine.

Also, thank goodness for forensic writing style analysis that let's us know that most of the king Follet discourse is a match to BY. God bless you Enid Debarthe.
Last edited by Shawn Henry on August 30th, 2022, 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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kirtland r.m.
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Re: King Follet...Wilford and thousands of others must have been on the edges of their seats!

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TheChristian wrote: August 28th, 2022, 4:44 pm We have in Genesis the term Elohim Jehovah, we all know this is Jesus, He is One God, not the Gods Jesus.
Heres another from Genesis.....
And they heard the voice of Jehovah Elohim, walking in the garden in the cool of the day.
It does not say "the voices of many Jehovahs" it speaks of one voice coming from Jehovah Elohim.

Wherefore thou art great, Jehovah Elohim; for there is none like YOU, neither is there any God beside you, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
Note it says YOU, a singular term........

And now, Jehovah Elohim, the word that YOU have spoken
Note again the singular "YOU"

for Jehovah Elohim, my GOD, will be with thee;
Note, that it says GOD, not Gods.

Blessed be Jehovah Elohim, the God of Israel, who alone doeth wondrous things!
Note it says GOD, not Gods,

But Jehovah Elohim is truth; he is the living God, and the King of eternity.
Note, it says Living God, not Gods, and King, not kings

Jacob wrestles with one being, yet that being is referred to as ’elohim

and the angel that appears to Manoah, the father of Samson, is also referred to as ’elohim

The pagan Philistines apply the title ’elohim to their god Dagon. The Moabites, likewise, used the word ’elohim to describe their god Chemosh

Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer the Yahweh of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last, and besides Me there is no ’Elohim”
Jesus is Yahweh, and the King of Israel, also the Redeemer, the First and the Last and He is saying here that besides Him there is no Elohim.........

Heres what the Jews tell us about Elohim.........
The first Name used for God in scripture is Elohim. In form, the word is a masculine plural of a word that looks feminine in the singular (Eloha). The same word (or, according to Maimonides, a homonym of it) is used to refer to princes, judges, other gods, and other powerful beings. This Name is used in scripture when emphasizing God's might, His creative power, and his attributes of justice and rulership.
Heres their sacred proclamation of faith..............
"Here O' Israel, Havayah is our Elokim, Havayah is One."
Here O Israel, yahweh is our Elohim, yahweh is One...

And we all know whom Yahweh is, it is the Lord Jesus, our Elohim......The one true God of Israel.......

As Jesus said to the Church goers of His day.........
"You pour over the Scriptures thinking in them you have eternal life, yet all the time they are testifieing to Me!"
From the very first words of Genesis and thru out the Law and the Prophets and thru out the New testament runs a bright testimony to Jesus our Elohim.............

Elohim manifest in the Flesh, our King, Redeemer and our Alpha and Omega...........
We have one Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ(Jehovah, as he was known before His birth, during Old Testament time and still is). Elohim when used properly, is a word describing the Heavenly Father of both Jesus, and also us. When referring to one God in the Bible, what is being referred to is our one Savior, and redeemer, the Lord Jesus the Christ . You and I know there are other scriptures in the bible referring to Gods(plural). The Father and the Son are separate and distinct. There is much biblical scripture referring to this, for example at the baptism of Jesus. Jesus was not being a ventriloquist at his baptism when the voice of the Father was heard testifying of Jesus. Not only this, but the scriptures referred to many Gods. They referred also to a grand council of the Gods. Here is more on that subject. Don't ignore or blow this off although it may be rather new to you, for it is true. The following is from fairlatterdaysaints.org..

William Dever, the worlds most renowned American biblical archaeologist, in a very exciting book entitled “ Did God have a Wife” gives us this kind of summary of where we are at from an academic perspective. “A generation ago when I was graduate student, biblical scholars were nearly unanimous in thinking that monotheism, the belief in a single God, of course, had been predominant in ancient Israelite religion from the beginning. Abraham and Moses and so forth, alright “not just as an ideal” states Dever, “but as the reality”.

Today all that has changed, virtually all mainstream scholars and even a few conservatives he knows, and I have to go so far as to state that in my experience, one would be hard pressed to find a contemporary biblical scholar who does not recognize this point at least at some level. All that has changed. Virtually all the scholars acknowledge that true monotheism emerged only in the period of the exile in Babylon in the 6th century BC.

As the canon of the Hebrew Bible was taking shape, the canon, not the books themselves, because the books themselves clearly point to this concept of a multiplicity of gods who governed the affairs of the universe. “I have suggested” states Dever, “along with most scholars, that the emergence of monotheism of exclusive Yahwehism was largely a response to the tragic experience of the exile”.

Now isn’t that exciting! So things have changed considerably. Okay, when this book came out in 1994, I was excited, ran out grabbed it as soon I could from the Brandeis library when I was a graduate student, and couldn’t sleep that night. It was just too wonderful. Lowell Handy’s “Among the Host of Heaven”, of course a non-LDS scholar, really give us this great quote, in terms of the council, we will see lots of allusions to this council of divine beings of gods all throughout the Bible.

But sometimes they are obscured by expressions that non-specialists don’t recognize as allusions to the Council. So Handy makes the statement “the Bible calls the assembled beings, the host of heaven”, right, or the “heavenly host”, but it is widely understood that these were the gods, in the plural, who made up the “heavenly host” in Judah and Israel. Okay, so this concept of a multiplicity of gods existing in an assembly structure, a Council structure, that is fundamental to Mormonism, is also today central to the concept of bureaucracy from an Old Testament perspective and in terms of the ancient Near East.

This is recognized by virtually all biblical scholars today. Now one of those whose work I connect with on many levels, is a biblical scholar by the name of Mark Smith. Mark Smith does a lot of work with the Ugaritic tablets of ancient Canaan in the Northwest Semitic Canaanic form alphabetic script, and the discovery of these Canaanite documents to revolutionize the understanding of the Old Testament. Okay, it is a lot of comparison between the tradition, and what we see in the Old Testament. Great quote from his book “The Early History of God, Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel”, early on Yahweh who of course is Jehovah. Jehovah or Yahweh is understood early on, he states in Israelite tradition, as Israel’s God in distinction to El”. Deuteronomy 32:8 through 9, he casts Yahweh in the role of one of the sons of El, so El ultimately is the Heavenly Father figure, Yahweh or Jehovah is the Son.

This passage presents an order in which each deity received his own nation, referring back to Deuteronomy 32. Israel was the nation that Yahweh received as his special inheritance. If you will take that verse and look at some of the more contemporary translation of it, you will see that this really is explicit in the text. There are multiple gods who govern the affairs of the universe. Yahweh is assigned Israel, and Israel worships Yahweh exclusively, but these gods, including Yahweh or Jehovah exist in the “”Heavenly Assembly” or “Council structure” in many ways congruent, with what the prophet introduces through inspiration and through the restoration… more fun.

Let me give you another quote in the present form of the biblical text the term Elyon which is “most high”, it’s from the root “Allah” “to ascend” in Hebrew. Elyon the Most High God, is understood to be an epithet for Yahweh, the God of Israel. “It is possible” he states however,” as some have argued” including Mark Smith and other biblical scholars,” that the epithet may conceal a reference to a separate deity, possibly an older god with whom Yahweh, eventually in Israelite tradition, came to be identified”.

So again reference, to Elyon or El, a high God, seems to exist textually, in early biblical tradition and eventually through the canonization process, this concept is combined, and ultimately Jehovah assumes all of these positions, certainly within later Judaism but in the early stages , we see something very much in harmony with the views of the restoration.https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/con ... il-of-gods

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Redpilled Mormon
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Re: King Follet,...Wilford and thousands of others must have been on the edges of their seats!

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

Shawn Henry wrote: August 28th, 2022, 9:13 pm
JLHPROF wrote: August 28th, 2022, 6:07 pm Joseph's entire point in the discourse is that it IS salvific. "This is life eternal..."
That was the entire purpose of LoF actually. The doctrine portion of the D&C that let's the saints know the nature of God because you have to know his nature in order to worship him. Thank goodness for canon that allows us to recognize false doctrine.

Also, thank goodness for forensic writing style analysis that let's us know that most of the king Follet discourse is a match to BY. God bless you Edith Debarthe.
Wow, is that right? That would explain a lot, if the King Follet discourse was a fabricated rewrite by Brigham.

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Redpilled Mormon
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Re: King Follet...Wilford and thousands of others must have been on the edges of their seats!

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

CaptainM wrote: August 28th, 2022, 8:42 pm An excerpt from One Who Is Watching’s book Solving the Prophet Puzzle, Chapter 22. For what it is worth…

Rejecting Truth

‘One of the truly shocking things I discovered during my quest to better understand the true history of Mormonism, is that after the fulness of the Gospel was rejected, the heavens slowly began closing and the Lord began covering the eyes of the prophets and seers of the LDS restoration, just as Isaiah had prophesied:

For behold, the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep. For behold, ye have closed your eyes, and ye have rejected the prophets; and your rulers, and the seers hath he covered because of your iniquity.(2 Nephi 27)

The truths that had been revealed by revelation during the revelatory sweet spot of the restoration began to be replaced with false doctrine in fulfillment with prophecy:

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. (2 Tim 4)

Within a decade of when the Lectures on Faith was canonized, Joseph Smith began contradicting the truths about the nature and character of God that are in the Bible. Interestingly, he also contradicted what he and Sidney Rigdon had presented in the Lectures on Faith, and he also contradicted what was taught about God in the Book of Mormon and the revelations he’d brought forth.

During the final months, before his martyrdom, he actually taught that God the Father is an anthropomorphic God (with a body of flesh and bones) who had previously been a mortal man. He taught that the Father is not the first God and that there were many Gods before Him. He taught that God was not from everlasting to everlasting. This contradicted both the Bible, as well as the scriptures that Joseph Smith had been instrumental in bringing forth.

Following the succession crisis, once a large portion of the Saints migrated to Utah, Brigham Young began teaching other heresies about the nature of God and he even denied the virgin birth as it is described in the Bible and Book of Mormon.

The Latter-day Saints have now replaced the original truths about the true nature and character of God with fables. My research has led me to believe that virtually every major doctrine of the Gospel has been changed since the early days of the LDS restoration. Even the saving ordinances of the Gospel have been changed as Isaiah noted. It is disturbing to realize that Mormons are taught a false idea of the true nature and character of God. There is a passage in modern revelation that informs us that those who don’t repent can have the light, which they have already received, taken away from them:

. . . he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven; And he that repents not, from him shall be taken even the light which he has received; for my Spirit shall not always strive with man, saith the Lord of Hosts.(D&C 1)

The concept that a person can have their knowledge of the truth taken from them is a fascinating one. The Book of Mormon also teaches that truth can be taken away from those who are unwilling to receive more truth, “. . . from them that shall say, we have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have."

In Christ. Best wishes…
I recently watched a youtube vid, in which a young lady fairly comprehensively demonstrated from scripture verses in the Book of Mormon, that the current lds church teachings on the nature of the Godhead wildly diverge from what the Book of Mormon teaches. However what the Book of Mormon teaches does indeed seem to square with the picture painted by the Lectures on Faith.

While I was initially shocked by discovering the Lectures on Faith conflicting so much with what I was taught growing up lds, upon further reflection there's something that's always bothered me about the standard 'infinite regression of Gods' model. No matter how infinitely far back we go up the chain of commands of Gods, they are all still constrained within the universe and simply re-organizing already existing components/matter/space/time/etc.

Even if true, there still must exist some sort of Ultra-God or True-God that is not constrained within the universe and who created it all. And in comparison with such a being, all the other Gods simply have fiefdoms over parts of the cosmos, in some infinite chain of command, but no longer meet the true definition of 'God', being creator of all things, everlasting to everlasting, etc. Instead they would each have their own 'start date' of ascending to godhood, but we can't say they were from everlasting to everlasting.

I suppose the alternate explanation is that there is no 'Ultra-God' creator at all, and it devolves into an atheistic universe in which somebody randomly evolved to 'godhood' and figured out how to work all the buttons and levers to exert godlike control, but that's a very unlikely scenario imo.

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Niemand
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Re: King Follet...Wilford and thousands of others must have been on the edges of their seats!

Post by Niemand »

The problem with creation being just "rearranging matter" and/or an infinite chain of gods going back, is that you're still left with the question of where both the universe and the gods came from. It's the theological equivalent of "elephants all the way down" if you know the reference, or the Steady State Universe theory.

[Edit to add: I see Redpilled Mormon has made this point before me.]

That said, I have always enjoyed reading the KFD and wish it was included in the official scriptures.

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Durzan
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Re: King Follet...Wilford and thousands of others must have been on the edges of their seats!

Post by Durzan »

Niemand wrote: August 29th, 2022, 1:45 am The problem with creation being just "rearranging matter" and/or an infinite chain of gods going back, is that you're still left with the question of where both the universe and the gods came from. It's the theological equivalent of "elephants all the way down" if you know the reference, or the Steady State Universe theory.

[Edit to add: I see Redpilled Mormon has made this point before me.]

That said, I have always enjoyed reading the KFD and wish it was included in the official scriptures.
There is no beginnings or endings to the Wheel of Time…

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TheChristian
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Re: King Follet...Wilford and thousands of others must have been on the edges of their seats!

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Indeed there was times when Israel ran after pagan Gods, indeed a pantheon of gods, the Hebrew writers and their Prophets faithfully recorded such in their Scriptures, so all said Biblical archeologists are doing is supporting the Biblical writings concerning the varied times when Israel and the ancients whored after strange gods and goddesses.
The fact remains that the Bible teachs of One true God, that in the meridian of time He would manifest Himself in the flesh, walk amongst us and pay the price of his creations sins with His own Blood.
And it was for this testimony that nigh on all the Prophets and messengers in ancient times were persecuted, imprisoned, exiled or put to death.............
The Bible from beginning to end is a Witness to this one God, this Father of all creation, whom in the form of Jesus of Nazerath suffered death apon the cross and after three days in the tomb arose from the dead and thru faith in His name mankind can obtain timeless happiness.
Let all the learned academics and religious men in any church claim whatever they will, but every man and woman that truly humbles themselves, confessing their sins and seeks out this God whom is our Father, our King, our redeemer and Saviour shall know of a surety, just as I do that Jesus our Lord presides in Glory over all in the heavens, earths and worlds without number or end, but yet has time for each and every one of us His children and will reveal His love in a manner that cannot be put into mortal words to each and every one of us that believe and call apon His name............
We cannot, we must not at the very peril of losing our salvation, demote nor in the slightest degree seek to take even one particle of the Glory away from Jesus of Nazerath and give it to others.
As I have written many times......
Whom was it that was mocked, beaten, flogged, stripped naked then nailed to a Cross in our stead?
If it was this lowly Jewish teacher called Jesus, then worship Him, for the Scripture clearly attests that no one else in the Heavens was worthy nor able to endure, nor pay the price of sin, nor take their lives up again.........
That means no grandfather god, no arch Angel, no michael, nor gabriel or raphael was worthy or able to accomplish the work of Calvary, only God Himself was able and that God is our Lord Jesus.........

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Luke
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Re: King Follet,...Wilford and thousands of others must have been on the edges of their seats!

Post by Luke »

Redpilled Mormon wrote: August 29th, 2022, 12:32 am
Shawn Henry wrote: August 28th, 2022, 9:13 pm
JLHPROF wrote: August 28th, 2022, 6:07 pm Joseph's entire point in the discourse is that it IS salvific. "This is life eternal..."
That was the entire purpose of LoF actually. The doctrine portion of the D&C that let's the saints know the nature of God because you have to know his nature in order to worship him. Thank goodness for canon that allows us to recognize false doctrine.

Also, thank goodness for forensic writing style analysis that let's us know that most of the king Follet discourse is a match to BY. God bless you Edith Debarthe.
Wow, is that right? That would explain a lot, if the King Follet discourse was a fabricated rewrite by Brigham.
There is zero evidence that the KFD was fabricated by Brigham. It is simply hilarious how whenever someone disagrees with Joseph Smith, they throw that old chestnut out. People independently wrote reports of the KFD that Brigham had no access to. There are four main contemporaneous reports of that sermon which were used to write the official report and they are practically identical.

The writing style of King Follett isn’t Brigham’s either. It reads just like Joseph’s other sermons. Brigham had a totally different way of speaking.

Enid Debarthe was just plain wrong. She was an RLDS apologist seeking to bolster the official narrative of the Group which they soon did a 180 on upon the realisation that Joseph Smith was in fact a polygamist.

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Redpilled Mormon
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Re: King Follet...Wilford and thousands of others must have been on the edges of their seats!

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

Durzan wrote: August 29th, 2022, 4:04 am
Niemand wrote: August 29th, 2022, 1:45 am The problem with creation being just "rearranging matter" and/or an infinite chain of gods going back, is that you're still left with the question of where both the universe and the gods came from. It's the theological equivalent of "elephants all the way down" if you know the reference, or the Steady State Universe theory.

[Edit to add: I see Redpilled Mormon has made this point before me.]

That said, I have always enjoyed reading the KFD and wish it was included in the official scriptures.
There is no beginnings or endings to the Wheel of Time…
Oh, there was an ending. A horrible, horrible ending, written by a horrible, horrible writer who had no respect for the source material or any plotline set up by the original writer. And then, as if the series wasn't dead enough, Amazon came along and decided to urinate on the grave by making the whole thing into a woke hot mess of a tv series. So at this point, Wheel of Time is as dead as it's possible to be... :)

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CaptainM
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Re: King Follet,...Wilford and thousands of others must have been on the edges of their seats!

Post by CaptainM »

Shawn Henry wrote: August 28th, 2022, 9:13 pm
JLHPROF wrote: August 28th, 2022, 6:07 pm Joseph's entire point in the discourse is that it IS salvific. "This is life eternal..."
That was the entire purpose of LoF actually. The doctrine portion of the D&C that let's the saints know the nature of God because you have to know his nature in order to worship him. Thank goodness for canon that allows us to recognize false doctrine.

Also, thank goodness for forensic writing style analysis that let's us know that most of the king Follet discourse is a match to BY. God bless you Edith Debarthe.
Please share the resource you found of Edith Debarthe's research.

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Luke
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Re: King Follet,...Wilford and thousands of others must have been on the edges of their seats!

Post by Luke »

Redpilled Mormon wrote: August 28th, 2022, 7:46 pm
JLHPROF wrote: August 28th, 2022, 6:07 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: August 28th, 2022, 3:26 pm
Luke wrote: August 28th, 2022, 3:05 pm Sad that people on this forum reject it.
Why? It's not salvific, even if it turns out to be true. I see no more reason to mourn someone 'guessing wrong' about this than if they happened to 'guess wrong' about the existence of Bigfoot.
Joseph's entire point in the discourse is that it IS salvific. "This is life eternal..."
Can you cite a source on that? Because if Joseph really did say that understanding of this was salvific, that would mean he was definitely a false prophet at that point, since it directly opposes what Christ himself taught as salvific in 3 Nephi 11, with the strong caution that anything more or less taught for salvation was of evil.
  • Go to the morn of creation to understand the decrees of the Eloheem at the creation. It is necessary for us to have an understanding of God at the beginning, if we get a good start first we can go right, but if you start wrong you may go wrong. But few understand the character of God. they do not know they do not understand their relationship to God. the world know no more than the brute beast & they know no more than to eat drink and sleep, & this is all man knows about God or his exhistance, except what is given by the inspiration of the Almighty. go then to the beginning that you may understand. I ask this congregation what kind of a being is God? turn your thoughts in your hearts, & say have any of you seen or herd him or communed with him this is a question that may occupy your attention The scriptures inform us that this is eternal life to know the ownly wise God & Jesus Christ whome He has sent. If any inquire what kind of a being God is—I would say If you dont know God you have not eternal life, go back & find out what kind of a being God is. If I am the man that shows you what kind of a being God is then let evry man & woman sit in silence and never lift up his hand against me again
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... woodruff/1

Funny how you say that that proves he had fallen as a prophet by that point. Joseph made clear that this speech would prove that he was not a fallen prophet:
  • President Joseph Smith said He should not occupy time in speaking of any difficulties that might have occured in our midst, Said He was not a fallen prophet, & never in any nearer relationship to God than at the present time, & would show before the Conferen closed that God was with him.
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... woodruff/1

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