Are We Convinced And Persuaded?

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CaptainM
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Location: Missouri

Are We Convinced And Persuaded?

Post by CaptainM »

I quote these with the best of intentions, and not for strife or debate. My intent is to show there is only one God, and not the the god proffered by the Mormon/LDS Church. God is NOT an exalted man with many wives. The word of God states he is the same unchangeable God from and to all eternity.

1 And God spake all these words, saying, 2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. (JST Exodus 20)

5 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else…
15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour. 16 They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols. 17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. 18 For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else. 19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the Lord speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. 20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. 21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. (JST Isaiah 45)

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake. (JST John 14)

…Which is to show unto the remnant of the House of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations…. (Book of Mormon Title Page)

12  And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God; 13  And that he manifesteth himself unto all those who believe in him, by the power of the Holy Ghost; yea, unto every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, working mighty miracles, signs, and wonders, among the children of men according to their faith. (2 Nephi 26)

1  And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. 2  And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son— 3  The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son— 4  And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth. 5  And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people. (Mosiah 15)

26  And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God? 27  And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God. 28  Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God? 29  And he answered, No. 30  Now Zeezrom said unto him again: How knowest thou these things? 31  And he said: An angel hath made them known unto me. 32  And Zeezrom said again: Who is he that shall come?  Is it the Son of God? 33  And he said unto him, Yea. 34  And Zeezrom said again: Shall he save his people in their sins?  And Amulek answered and said unto him: I say unto you he shall not, for it is impossible for him to deny his word. 35  Now Zeezrom said unto the people: See that ye remember these things; for he said there is but one God; yet he saith that the Son of God shall come, but he shall not save his people—as though he had authority to command God... 38  Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father? 39  And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last; 40  And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else….(Alma 11)

18  For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity. (Mormon 9) 

9  And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger.  Sawest thou more than this? 10  And he answered: Nay; Lord, show thyself unto me. 11  And the Lord said unto him: Believest thou the words which I shall speak? 12  And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie. 13  And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you. 14  Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people.  Behold, I am Jesus Christ.  I am the Father and the Son.  In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters. (Ether 3)

7  And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are. 8  And he that will contend against the word of the Lord, let him be accursed; and he that shall deny these things, let him be accursed; for unto them will I show no greater things, saith Jesus Christ; for I am he who speaketh. 9  And at my command the heavens are opened and are shut; and at my word the earth shall shake; and at my command the inhabitants thereof shall pass away, even so as by fire. 10  And he that believeth not my words believeth not my disciples; and if it so be that I do not speak, judge ye; for ye shall know that it is I that speaketh, at the last day. 11  But he that believeth these things which I have spoken, him will I visit with the manifestations of my Spirit, and he shall know and bear record.  For because of my Spirit he shall know that these things are true; for it persuadeth men to do good. 12  And whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do good is of me; for good cometh of none save it be of me.  I am the same that leadeth men to all good; he that will not believe my words will not believe me—that I am; and he that will not believe me will not believe the Father who sent me.  For behold, I am the Father, I am the light, and the life, and the truth of the world.(Ether 4)

19 And if there were miracles wrought then, why has God ceased to be a God of miracles and yet be an unchangeable Being?  And behold, I say unto you he changeth not; if so he would cease to be God; and he ceaseth not to be God, and is a God of miracles. (Moroni 8)

2 There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing, and supreme power over all things, by whom all things were created and made, that are created and made, whether visible or invisible, whether in heaven, on earth, or in the earth, under the earth, or throughout the immensity of space. They are the Father and the Son -- the Father being a personage of spirit, glory, and power, possessing all perfection and fullness, the Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle, made of fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man, or rather man was formed after His likeness and in His image; He is also the express image and likeness of the personage of the Father, possessing all the fullness of the Father, or the same fullness with the Father; being begotten of Him, and ordained from before the foundation of the world to be a propitiation for the sins of all those who would believe on His name, and is called the Son because of the flesh, and descended in suffering below that which man can suffer; or, in other word, suffered greater sufferings, and was exposed to more powerful contradictions than any man can be. But, notwithstanding all this, He kept the law of God, and remained without sin, showing thereby that it is in the power of man to keep the law and remain also without sin; and also, that by Him a righteous judgment might come upon all flesh, and that all who walk not in the law of God may justly be condemned by the law, and have no excuse for their sins. And He being the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, and having overcome, received a fullness of the glory of the Father, possessing the same mind with the Father, which mind is the Holy Spirit, that bears record of the Father and the Son, and these three are one; or, in other words, these three constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things; by whom all things were created and made that were created and made, and these three constitute the Godhead, and are one; the Father and the Son possessing the same mind, the same wisdom, glory, power, and fullness -- filling all in all; the Son being filled with the fullness of the mind, glory, and power; or, in other words, the spirit, glory, and power, of the Father, possessing all knowledge and glory, and the same kingdom, sitting at the right hand of power, in the express image and likeness of the Father, mediator for man, being filled with the fullness of the mind of the Father; or, in other words, the Spirit of the Father, which Spirit is shed forth upon all who believe on His name and keep His commandments; and all those who keep His commandments shall grow up from grace to grace, and become heirs of the heavenly kingdom, and joint heirs with Jesus Christ; possessing the same mind, being transformed into the same image or likeness, even the express image of Him who fills all in all; being filled with the fullness of His glory, and become one in Him, even as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one. 3. From the foregoing account of the Godhead, which is given in His revelations, the saints have a sure foundation laid for the exercise of faith unto life and salvation, through the atonement and mediation of Jesus Christ; by whose blood they have a forgiveness of sins, and also a sure reward laid up for them in heaven, even that of partaking of the fullness of the Father and the Son through the Spirit. As the Son partakes of the fullness of the Father through the Spirit, so the saints are, by the same Spirit, to be partakers of the same fullness, to enjoy the same glory; for as the Father and the Son are one, so, in like manner, the saints are to be one in them. (Lectures On Faith 5)

11  Proving to the world that the holy scriptures are true, and that God does inspire men and call them to his holy work in this age and generation, as well as in generations of old; 12  Thereby showing that he is the same God yesterday, today, and forever.  Amen. (D&C 20)

1  Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am; 2  And that I am the true light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world; 3  And that I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one— 4  The Father because he gave me of his fulness, and the Son because I was in the world and made flesh my tabernacle, and dwelt among the sons of men. 5  I was in the world and received of my Father, and the works of him were plainly manifest. 6  And John saw and bore record of the fulness of my glory, and the fulness of John's record is hereafter to be revealed. 7  And he bore record, saying: I saw his glory, that he was in the beginning, before the world was; 8  Therefore, in the beginning the Word was, for he was the Word, even the messenger of salvation— 9  The light and the Redeemer of the world; the Spirit of truth, who came into the world, because the world was made by him, and in him was the life of men and the light of men. 10  The worlds were made by him; men were made by him; all things were made by him, and through him, and of him. 11  And I, John, bear record that I beheld his glory, as the glory of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, even the Spirit of truth, which came and dwelt in the flesh, and dwelt among us. (D&C 93)

My name is Jehovah, and I know the end from the beginning; therefore my hand shall be over thee. (Abraham 2)

19  And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all. (Abraham 3)

In Christ. Best wishes...

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TheDuke
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Re: Are We Convinced And Persuaded?

Post by TheDuke »

While still working I had one single VP who ruled over me. He was the only VP in my life. I was tech fellowship so I was free to say anything and not be influenced by other leaders. So, I had only one VP.

I am guessing there are other VPs. Just not those with whom I must deal or trust.

The scriptures you quote are true, in their context. OT ones were simple doctrine for LoM. Jesus' were teachings that are figurative, not literal.

In the end, eternal life is to "know" god. Any knowledge of god is a good thing. Even simple knowledge is a blessing. Frankly, if you believe in Jesus, at least you have the right god. It that is all you believe, then you are in a path to salvation. If you obtain higher rewards, then you have higher knowledge. I quoted D&C 121 the other thread here is some again. It talks about gaining more knowledge of god and the things he does. If you can handle it all the better, if you only want to believe in Jesus then you are in a great place as few even find him as god. Note: this was in early 1839 as JS started teaching openly exaltation as he understood it, culminating in KFD, his last conference sermon, just before his death, completing his depth of teachings given from the Lord.

26 God shall give unto you knowledge by his Holy Spirit, yea, by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost, that has not been revealed since the world was until now;

27 Which our forefathers have awaited with anxious expectation to be revealed in the last times, which their minds were pointed to by the angels, as held in reserve for the fulness of their glory;

28 A time to come in the which nothing shall be withheld, whether there be bone God or many gods, they shall be manifest.

onefour1
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Re: Are We Convinced And Persuaded?

Post by onefour1 »

If you don't believe in the "Mormon/LDS Church" which has the official name of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, then why do you have an avatar with Captain Moroni and call yourself CaptainM?

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FrankOne
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Re: Are We Convinced And Persuaded?

Post by FrankOne »

although my perspective differs quite bit from the norm due to my reading of other ancient texts , especially Gnostic, I have always found this scripture quite interesting.

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.


The following is one of my favorites when I talk to those that believe that God has some severe punishment awaiting us.

John 5:22
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

The above scriptures seem to indicate that they are two distinct personages. My perspective is that the Father is completely incomprehensible to man. Yet, I believe that the God of the LDS church is a "God" which is under the Father of all and is filled with emotions of men. The God of the OT demonstrates himself repeatedly as "angry', 'jealous', and 'vengeful' . I am not mocking him because he is the Lord and manager of this world, yet, I have no aspirations to be of that type of character. There is the chance that the OT is filled with embellished words of men, so I am certain that I cannot be certain of any of this. :)

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TheChristian
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Re: Are We Convinced And Persuaded?

Post by TheChristian »

“All things are delivered to me of my Father:
and no man knoweth that the Son is the Father,
and the Father is the Son, but him to whom the Son will reveal it.”
(JST, LUKE 10...22)

Whom was it that died apon the Cross for us?

Was it Adam or his wife Eve?
Was it Joseph Smith whom Brigham declared was his God?
Was it Michael, Gabriel or any of the head Angels?
Was it some grandfather god?

No it was Jesus of Nazerath, so give Him the praise, worship and Glory...............

He is our God and Father in the eternities, only God Himself was perfect, without sin, only He being pure and without spot could be that Sacrifice apon the Cross, only He being the Father of all creation had the love that only a perfect Father could have for his wayward children and be willing to be sacrificed in their stead that they might at last come back into his presence, and only a Fathers love yes even the very eternal Father Jesus our Lord could endure the suffering that was placed apon His body apon the Cross for His childrens sins........
Only a perfect Fathers blood could pay the price of sin and only God our Father even Jesus of Nazerath had the power to arise from the dead, yes such a victory revealed that Christ Jesus is the Almighty Father and God of all creation, wether seen or unseen, for only God Himself had the power to suffer and die for mankinds sins, and arise from the dead.............

Think of that blood splattered body apon the Cross, how can any man proffessing to love said hallowed being deny Him in even the slightest degree His divinity, or demote Him to some inferior level in the Heavens, deny Him our total worship, praise and His almighty Glory...........

Wether there be gods and lords many, matters not to me, for none of such were mocked, beaten, flogged, stripped naked and nailed to a cruel cross that a sinner such as I could be forgiven and obtain timeless happyness........
For me Jesus of Nazerath outshines in majestic glory all things wether it be in the heavens or the earth.........He alone is worthy!

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TheDuke
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Re: Are We Convinced And Persuaded?

Post by TheDuke »

true but incomplete understanding, but it is a start, carry on Christian

AZRob
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Re: Are We Convinced And Persuaded?

Post by AZRob »

onefour1 wrote: August 25th, 2022, 6:07 pm If you don't believe in the "Mormon/LDS Church" which has the official name of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, then why do you have an avatar with Captain Moroni and call yourself CaptainM?
You are aware that the copyright to the Book of Mormon expired long ago, right? You can believe the Book of Mormon without believing every word which proceedeth from the mouth of ... the church. The analogous situation is to ask why Catholics have Bible heroes when they attend their church to the least extent possible to still be called members of their church. That is also a question with no merit, and yet, here we are.

onefour1
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Re: Are We Convinced And Persuaded?

Post by onefour1 »

AZRob wrote: August 26th, 2022, 2:42 pm
onefour1 wrote: August 25th, 2022, 6:07 pm If you don't believe in the "Mormon/LDS Church" which has the official name of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, then why do you have an avatar with Captain Moroni and call yourself CaptainM?
You are aware that the copyright to the Book of Mormon expired long ago, right? You can believe the Book of Mormon without believing every word which proceedeth from the mouth of ... the church. The analogous situation is to ask why Catholics have Bible heroes when they attend their church to the least extent possible to still be called members of their church. That is also a question with no merit, and yet, here we are.
My question was directed to CaptainM. Do you even know him/her? So, what you are saying is that you believe he/she has one foot in the door but the rest of his/her body has exited the door and that one foot loves the Book of Mormon. I suppose in this crazy world that could also be possible but from my perspective I certainly don't understand it.
Last edited by onefour1 on August 26th, 2022, 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AZRob
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Re: Are We Convinced And Persuaded?

Post by AZRob »

onefour1 wrote: August 26th, 2022, 2:53 pm
AZRob wrote: August 26th, 2022, 2:42 pm
onefour1 wrote: August 25th, 2022, 6:07 pm If you don't believe in the "Mormon/LDS Church" which has the official name of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, then why do you have an avatar with Captain Moroni and call yourself CaptainM?
You are aware that the copyright to the Book of Mormon expired long ago, right? You can believe the Book of Mormon without believing every word which proceedeth from the mouth of ... the church. The analogous situation is to ask why Catholics have Bible heroes when they attend their church to the least extent possible to still be called members of their church. That is also a question with no merit, and yet, here we are.
My question was directed to CaptainM. Do you even know him/her? So, what you are saying is that you believe he/she has one foot in the door but the rest of his/her body has existed the door and that one foot loves the Book of Mormon. I suppose in this crazy world that could also be possible but from my perspective I certainly don't understand it.
If your question was only for CaptainM, you could have contacted him/her personally via private message rather than on an open forum. I'm not identically positioned to CaptainM, but I can relate enough that the question resonates with me, at least enough so that I can help you out with something you haven't considered yet. As for myself - I'm not bold enough to assume the nickname of ancient good guys, but I appreciate the sentiment and having a CaptainM is better than having guys named Russell and Dallin all over town.

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CaptainM
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Re: Are We Convinced And Persuaded?

Post by CaptainM »

Believe me, I know I am a sinner. I feel very unworthy to use the title of CaptainM. However, what he represented is why I dared to use it. There are true Christians who believe in liberty. I believe it is no coincidence that the below part of the Book of Mormon is right in the middle almost. I believe the true believers in liberty, freedom, and Christ ARE the seed of Joseph, and will eventually inherit Zion (in Missouri and surrounding areas), and be tasked with taking the fulness of the gospel to the Lamanites and the world. I pray to be worthy to be considered part of that group. I also believe the secret combination that was beginning to take place, was abhorrent to the Christians.

I would also ask why some of the other titles and icons that others use on this forum are not objectionable? Anyway, I offer this by way of explanation, and not by debate or contention because we know where they are inspired from. If the consensus of the majority of the forum members thinks it is repugnant to use my title and icon, I will change them or not participate. My ONLY desire is the welfare of souls.

Please enjoy the following, and ponder the commitment needed to be the seed of Joseph"

11 And now it came to pass that when Moroni, who was the chief commander of the armies of the Nephites, had heard of these dissensions, he was angry with Amalickiah. 12  And it came to pass that he rent his coat; and he took a piece thereof, and wrote upon it—In memory of our God, our religion, and freedom, and our peace, our wives, and our children—and he fastened it upon the end of a pole...13  And he fastened on his head-plate, and his breastplate, and his shields, and girded on his armor about his loins; and he took the pole, which had on the end thereof his rent coat, (and he called it the title of liberty) and he bowed himself to the earth, and he prayed mightily unto his God for the blessings of liberty to rest upon his brethren, so long as there should a band of Christians remain to possess the land— 14  For thus were all the true believers of Christ, who belonged to the church of God, called by those who did not belong to the church. 15  And those who did belong to the church were faithful; yea, all those who were true believers in Christ took upon them, gladly, the name of Christ, or Christians as they were called, because of their belief in Christ who should come. 16  And therefore, at this time, Moroni prayed that the cause of the Christians, and the freedom of the land might be favored..18  And he said: Surely God shall not suffer that we, who are despised because we take upon us the name of Christ, shall be trodden down and destroyed, until we bring it upon us by our own transgressions...23  Moroni said unto them: Behold, we are a remnant of the seed of Jacob; yea, we are a remnant of the seed of Joseph, whose coat was rent by his brethren into many pieces; yea, and now behold, let us remember to keep the commandmentsof God, or our garments shall be rent by our brethren, and we be cast into prison, or be sold, or be slain. 24  Yea, let us preserve our liberty as a remnant of Joseph; yea, let us remember the words of Jacob, before his death, for behold, he saw that a part of the remnant of the coat of Joseph was preserved and had not decayed.  And he said—Even as this remnant of garment of my son hath been preserved, so shall a remnant of the seed of my son be preserved by the hand of God, and be taken unto himself, while the remainder of the seed of Joseph shall perish, even as the remnant of his garment.

In Christ. Best wishes...

onefour1
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Posts: 1309

Re: Are We Convinced And Persuaded?

Post by onefour1 »

If God the Father does not have a body of flesh and bones, then why was it important that Jesus be resurrected to eternally have a body of flesh and bones? Here are some more words from the man who brought forth the Book of Mormon and also gave us the JST of the Bible:

Doctrine and Covenants 130:22
22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

Joseph Smith's Sermon On the Plurality of Gods

The King Follett Sermon

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CaptainM
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Re: Are We Convinced And Persuaded?

Post by CaptainM »

onefour1 wrote: August 26th, 2022, 5:17 pm If God the Father does not have a body of flesh and bones, then why was it important that Jesus be resurrected to eternally have a body of flesh and bones? Here are some more words from the man who brought forth the Book of Mormon and also gave us the JST of the Bible:

Doctrine and Covenants 130:22
22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

Joseph Smith's Sermon On the Plurality of Gods

The King Follett Sermon
If you check into the Joseph Smith papers you will discover that Joseph did NOT canonize those words in section 130. It was a fabrication by Brighan Young and Willard Richards and added to the D&C right before BY died. A few people remembered this and that Joseph was supposed to have said, and it fit the Adam-God approach at the time. I will state however that the Lectures on Faith were canonized by Joseph, and arbitrarily removed from the Doctrine and Covenants by James Talmadge and committee without a vote of the church. I recommend a study of the Nauvoo Expositor to see the thing Joseph had gotten into contrary to the revealed word of God. I also recommend the following:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NRWs38Ux7A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0HnqHsXDoY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDC5AQgNajg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fj4xOHvMkpQ

Best wishes...

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Gadianton Slayer
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Re: Are We Convinced And Persuaded?

Post by Gadianton Slayer »

onefour1 wrote: August 25th, 2022, 6:07 pm If you don't believe in the "Mormon/LDS Church" which has the official name of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, then why do you have an avatar with Captain Moroni and call yourself CaptainM?
Because the BoM is not the LDS cult. You can love one and not the other.

onefour1
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Posts: 1309

Re: Are We Convinced And Persuaded?

Post by onefour1 »

CaptainM wrote: August 26th, 2022, 5:47 pm
onefour1 wrote: August 26th, 2022, 5:17 pm If God the Father does not have a body of flesh and bones, then why was it important that Jesus be resurrected to eternally have a body of flesh and bones? Here are some more words from the man who brought forth the Book of Mormon and also gave us the JST of the Bible:

Doctrine and Covenants 130:22
22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

Joseph Smith's Sermon On the Plurality of Gods

The King Follett Sermon
If you check into the Joseph Smith papers you will discover that Joseph did NOT canonize those words in section 130. It was a fabrication by Brighan Young and Willard Richards and added to the D&C right before BY died. A few people remembered this and that Joseph was supposed to have said, and it fit the Adam-God approach at the time. I will state however that the Lectures on Faith were canonized by Joseph, and arbitrarily removed from the Doctrine and Covenants by James Talmadge and committee without a vote of the church. I recommend a study of the Nauvoo Expositor to see the thing Joseph had gotten into contrary to the revealed word of God. I also recommend the following:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NRWs38Ux7A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0HnqHsXDoY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDC5AQgNajg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fj4xOHvMkpQ

Best wishes...
In the King Follett Discourse, Joseph Smith is reported to also have taught the following:

Eternal Life to Know God and Jesus Christ
"I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon!) The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it. Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming His name, is not trifling with you or me."

Here we see Joseph teaching that the Father himself laid down his life and took it up again. In other words, the Father was a savior on another world who laid down His body of flesh and bones and then took it up again. Do you believe that Joseph taught and believed this or is this another conspiracy in your mind?

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CaptainM
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Re: Are We Convinced And Persuaded?

Post by CaptainM »

Brethren,

Sorry, if I've not said anything to offend. If offense is taken, it was not in my heart. Please know that is not my intent. I took the low road in responding to criticism. I broke my own rule, and need to watch out for contention. The fact is people get caught up in pride, and want (like Satan's priests) to contend one with another. I posted the canonized word of God. If there are offenses taken, it needs to be directed to the originator of what I shared. Whoever wants, can get the last word on this post. I hope no enemies have been made.

onefour1
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Posts: 1309

Re: Are We Convinced And Persuaded?

Post by onefour1 »

Joseph Smith believed that when Paul taught the following:

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

that the phrase "as there be gods many and lords many" did not refer to false gods but that Paul was teaching that there were actually many gods in existence. But to us here on this earth or any earth within the kingdom of our Heavenly Father, there is but one God. Read the following sermon given by Joseph Smith to understand his beliefs on the plurality of gods:

Joseph Smith's Sermon On the Plurality of Gods

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FrankOne
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Re: Are We Convinced And Persuaded?

Post by FrankOne »

onefour1 wrote: August 26th, 2022, 5:17 pm If God the Father does not have a body of flesh and bones, then why was it important that Jesus be resurrected to eternally have a body of flesh and bones? Here are some more words from the man who brought forth the Book of Mormon and also gave us the JST of the Bible:

Doctrine and Covenants 130:22
22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

Joseph Smith's Sermon On the Plurality of Gods

The King Follett Sermon
It really is a difficult subject. LDS doctrine is that the 'Gods" are innumerable, each with their own planet(s) to Lord.

my perspective is that at the beginning of this line of Gods is a being that is completely incomprehensible and that his light and consciousness is in every thing that exists. When that consciousness exists within souls, such as those of what we call 'humans', that consciousness can evolve into immortal, bodily beings. I also believe that the choice to become a 'God' , with a body, is just that, a choice for those that have achieved that level....but.... that a choice can also be made to simply 'go home' and end their stay in the realm of time/space. For me, it's the difference between the Matrix and reality. Everyone goes home, it's just a matter of time, whether it's a 100 yrs or a trillion.

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Mindfields
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Re: Are We Convinced And Persuaded?

Post by Mindfields »

onefour1 wrote: August 25th, 2022, 6:07 pm If you don't believe in the "Mormon/LDS Church" which has the official name of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, then why do you have an avatar with Captain Moroni and call yourself CaptainM?
Well that's the problem. One can't simply believe in the Book of Mormon and the Mormon church at the same time. They're incongruent.

Bronco73idi
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Posts: 1813

Re: Are We Convinced And Persuaded?

Post by Bronco73idi »

CaptainM wrote: August 26th, 2022, 8:07 pm Brethren,

Sorry, if I've not said anything to offend. If offense is taken, it was not in my heart. Please know that is not my intent. I took the low road in responding to criticism. I broke my own rule, and need to watch out for contention. The fact is people get caught up in pride, and want (like Satan's priests) to contend one with another. I posted the canonized word of God. If there are offenses taken, it needs to be directed to the originator of what I shared. Whoever wants, can get the last word on this post. I hope no enemies have been made.
Then who are you to call repentance?

Did God give you this charge?

Brigham was a saint compared to David and Solomon. David wanted to build a house for God and God told him no. God then told him that his descendant will build his house. This descendant was the offshoot of a relationship that started with adultery and murder and then a 2nd child.

Imagine if Brigham had a situation close to this. All the eunuchs hate the Alphas.

You said god doesn’t change but through your twisting of his words show that you don’t know him! Wouldn’t that make him always changing to someone like yourself?

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TheChristian
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Re: Are We Convinced And Persuaded?

Post by TheChristian »

onefour1 wrote: August 26th, 2022, 9:48 pm Joseph Smith believed that when Paul taught the following:

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

that the phrase "as there be gods many and lords many" did not refer to false gods but that Paul was teaching that there were actually many gods in existence. But to us here on this earth or any earth within the kingdom of our Heavenly Father, there is but one God. Read the following sermon given by Joseph Smith to understand his beliefs on the plurality of gods:

Joseph Smith's Sermon On the Plurality of Gods

If one reads the entire chapter, it is obvious that paul is speaking about meat sacrificed to Heathen idols and heathen gods then eaten.........(a subject that must of caused concern in the early christian church of what to do about such meat that had been offered to idols and pagan gods, which Paul rightly states are no gods at all)
The pagans had many gods that lived in the heavens and also many lesser gods (lords) apon the earth...
Paul the Jewish Christian rightly states in said chapter "that there is none other God but one"

Being a man reared up in the Law and the Prophets, he would of avidly stood by the principle of only one God and becoming a Jewish Christian this most important of hebrew beliefs of his forefathers would of been reinforced....
Reading his other letters also confirms that there is only one God and that the so called pagan gods and lords are no gods at all and that all the pagans are doing when they worship these idols are worshipping devils.......

Heres Pauls understanding of the one and only God....

He is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn over all creation.
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth,
visible and invisible,
whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
All things were created through Him and for Him.
And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning,
the firstborn from the dead,
that in all things He may have the preeminence.

Take notice this one God created everything in the heavens, both visible and invisible........
That ALL things were created by Him........
He is before all things created in the heavens and by Him alone all things consist..........
And so the universe that has no end, all the universes and galaxies we can see and those too far to see onto infinity, were created by this one God............

And the most wonderous and most awe inspiring and heart rendering thing about this God is that He manifested Himself in the flesh as the lowly Jewish teacher Jesus of Nazerath for the sole purpose of hanging apon a cross in our stead........
What a wonder of a Holy Omnipotent God, our Lord Jesus the true God that practised what He preached even to the cruel cross of Calvary............

onefour1
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Re: Are We Convinced And Persuaded?

Post by onefour1 »

TheChristian wrote: August 27th, 2022, 10:40 am
onefour1 wrote: August 26th, 2022, 9:48 pm Joseph Smith believed that when Paul taught the following:

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

that the phrase "as there be gods many and lords many" did not refer to false gods but that Paul was teaching that there were actually many gods in existence. But to us here on this earth or any earth within the kingdom of our Heavenly Father, there is but one God. Read the following sermon given by Joseph Smith to understand his beliefs on the plurality of gods:

Joseph Smith's Sermon On the Plurality of Gods

If one reads the entire chapter, it is obvious that paul is speaking about meat sacrificed to Heathen idols and heathen gods then eaten.........(a subject that must of caused concern in the early christian church of what to do about such meat that had been offered to idols and pagan gods, which Paul rightly states are no gods at all)
The pagans had many gods that lived in the heavens and also many lesser gods (lords) apon the earth...
Paul the Jewish Christian rightly states in said chapter "that there is none other God but one"

Being a man reared up in the Law and the Prophets, he would of avidly stood by the principle of only one God and becoming a Jewish Christian this most important of hebrew beliefs of his forefathers would of been reinforced....
Reading his other letters also confirms that there is only one God and that the so called pagan gods and lords are no gods at all and that all the pagans are doing when they worship these idols are worshipping devils.......

Heres Pauls understanding of the one and only God....

He is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn over all creation.
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth,
visible and invisible,
whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
All things were created through Him and for Him.
And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning,
the firstborn from the dead,
that in all things He may have the preeminence.

Take notice this one God created everything in the heavens, both visible and invisible........
That ALL things were created by Him........
He is before all things created in the heavens and by Him alone all things consist..........
And so the universe that has no end, all the universes and galaxies we can see and those too far to see onto infinity, were created by this one God............

And the most wonderous and most awe inspiring and heart rendering thing about this God is that He manifested Himself in the flesh as the lowly Jewish teacher Jesus of Nazerath for the sole purpose of hanging apon a cross in our stead........
What a wonder of a Holy Omnipotent God, our Lord Jesus the true God that practised what He preached even to the cruel cross of Calvary............
1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

To us here on this earth, there is but one God. That is what Joseph and Paul were teaching about our relationship to our God. His point was there are other kingdoms of other Gods that do not apply to us here on this earth. His argument is that the one true God that we alone should worship is our God and the only one with whom we have to do. However, Joseph Smith believed that there are other Gods of their own kingdoms which have nothing to do with us on this earth and believed this is what Paul was referring to in the verse above. You should do a study of the term "all things" in the scriptures and see if it always applies to absolutely everything that has ever existed anywhere. It does not refer necessarily to absolutely everything that has ever existed. I would dare guess that Joseph Smith would say that "all things" in the context you quote would relate to all things within our God's kingdom and not throughout existence and other kingdoms.

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Luke
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Re: Are We Convinced And Persuaded?

Post by Luke »

onefour1 wrote: August 26th, 2022, 2:53 pm So, what you are saying is that you believe he/she has one foot in the door but the rest of his/her body has exited the door and that one foot loves the Book of Mormon. I suppose in this crazy world that could also be possible but from my perspective I certainly don't understand it.
Because why does a belief in the Book of Mormon automatically equal a belief in the LDS Church? There are many branches of Mormonism: Fundamentalists, Reorganites, Rigdonites, Strangites, and these days Snufferites and Davisites, etc. etc. etc.

It’s like saying that if you believe in the Bible you must believe in the Catholic Church.

onefour1
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Posts: 1309

Re: Are We Convinced And Persuaded?

Post by onefour1 »

Luke wrote: August 28th, 2022, 3:39 am
onefour1 wrote: August 26th, 2022, 2:53 pm So, what you are saying is that you believe he/she has one foot in the door but the rest of his/her body has exited the door and that one foot loves the Book of Mormon. I suppose in this crazy world that could also be possible but from my perspective I certainly don't understand it.
Because why does a belief in the Book of Mormon automatically equal a belief in the LDS Church? There are many branches of Mormonism: Fundamentalists, Reorganites, Rigdonites, Strangites, and these days Snufferites and Davisites, etc. etc. etc.

It’s like saying that if you believe in the Bible you must believe in the Catholic Church.
My thoughts on the subject are that the man who brought forth the Book of Mormon also believed in the plurality of Gods, that God has a body of flesh and bones, and that we all can become Gods. Believing in the Book of Mormon but not in the teachings of Joseph Smith seems quite odd to me. Did Joseph get it right with the Book of Mormon but was way off when it came to his other teachings and beliefs?

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Luke
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Re: Are We Convinced And Persuaded?

Post by Luke »

onefour1 wrote: August 28th, 2022, 11:23 am
Luke wrote: August 28th, 2022, 3:39 am
onefour1 wrote: August 26th, 2022, 2:53 pm So, what you are saying is that you believe he/she has one foot in the door but the rest of his/her body has exited the door and that one foot loves the Book of Mormon. I suppose in this crazy world that could also be possible but from my perspective I certainly don't understand it.
Because why does a belief in the Book of Mormon automatically equal a belief in the LDS Church? There are many branches of Mormonism: Fundamentalists, Reorganites, Rigdonites, Strangites, and these days Snufferites and Davisites, etc. etc. etc.

It’s like saying that if you believe in the Bible you must believe in the Catholic Church.
My thoughts on the subject are that the man who brought forth the Book of Mormon also believed in the plurality of Gods, that God has a body of flesh and bones, and that we all can become Gods. Believing in the Book of Mormon but not in the teachings of Joseph Smith seems quite odd to me. Did Joseph get it right with the Book of Mormon but was way off when it came to his other teachings and beliefs?
I believe in Joseph’s teachings wholeheartedly. Others don’t. Some believe he went off the rails at some point.

Some believe that the Church apostatised later on, at varying points. I believe that the Church apostatised when they chose to persecute polygamists, changed the Temple ordinances, and did other apostate things.


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