Remnant Synthesis: Snuffer, Davis, and others create a new Mormonism

[1775peasant]

...they aren't creating anything new...because they were cast out and lost what they had...predicted Snuffer's departure on this forum a year before it took place...

...the illusion of new things is the spin line to substantiate their positions...and ought to be sign as their doctrine evolves over time...
[/quote



“the illusion of new things is the spin line to substantiate their positions”

kinda conversely, u just nailed the most current Q15 modus operandi? ……”change”, obviously wasn’t just an Obama leadership idea……..though sadly, there are striking similarities in both their desire’s to change historical, “fundamental” practice's respectively



changes……https://youtu.be/WuP9o-q9uns

more spin...

oh how i wish it where true, but the last 4 years prove it to be otherwise, no matter how deep one might bury their head……

[dreamtheater76]

Davis group huh? Too bad they didn't name it after Snuffer. Call it the Snuffleupagus Remnant. Has a nice ring too it.

[SeekWisdom]

For those looking for a deep dive into Remnant movements (Denver Snuffer, PR, Phil Davis) I wrote this a year ago, and with the chaos now in the Davis group, I thought this was a good time to share this with people.

If this needs to be moved to the Heretic area, feel free. I can't seem to post there.

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AqcqiBg4v-M3-AXTG8_ ... g?e=U3Th6s

Great summary and details of the various groups. Thank you for sharing!

[petertaylorpedro]

For those looking for a deep dive into Remnant movements (Denver Snuffer, PR, Phil Davis) I wrote this a year ago, and with the chaos now in the Davis group, I thought this was a good time to share this with people.

If this needs to be moved to the Heretic area, feel free. I can't seem to post there.

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AqcqiBg4v-M3-AXTG8_ ... g?e=U3Th6s

Thank you for that write up @pjbrownie, I really enjoyed the details around PR. I very much appreciated what he shared on his blog, and his books - all of which helped me in GREAT measure. I since have come to know who he is, and also wish he would come out from behind the anonymity. Someone on an online forum I frequented back in 2016 seemed to mention him in a "dangerous" light, so I HAD to check him out, ha!

On this same forum Denver Snuffer was basically a cuss word, and for some reason I didn't feel compelled to look into him at the time. Fast forward to 2021, when I was led to meeting with Phil's group, and very much enjoyed my fellowshipping with them. At length, I was led to look into Denver, and soon thereafter the Lord guided me to re-baptism at bornofwater.org, and subsequently making the covenant (receivethecovenant.com) this spring.

I continue attending my LDS ward for my wife and children b/c in her mind, the negative doesn't quite yet outweigh the positive. While trying to build Zion in my heart and in my family, I anxiously await a gathering of covenant keeping people, which call I'm guessing will come at some point from Denver??? if/when we rise to the occasion - to build a temple, receive the fullness of the priesthood, and help in building a New Jerusalem to receive the Lord.

BOTTOM LINE: for me, very positive/enlightening/faith-building experiences with all three groups, and all have pointed me ONLY to the Savior. Indeed grateful to all the wonderful souls I have engaged with along the way.

[logonbump]

I read Denver's material more than I read Joseph Smith's. Denver has improved my image and view of Joseph Smith. Denver has challenged my views of Joseph Smith (I loved the fallen prophet theory

Denver, Phil, and many others have taught many things they have learned from the blogger Watcher, but no one ever credits him. They read him, take his ideas, then rebrand them without ever mentioned who did the first deep dive into our history and into the scriptures. Watcher remains anonymous so he never develops a following.

Val Brinkerhoff's book The Secret Chamber is a great read.

What is the link to the Watcher blog?

Also, this, his channel:
https://youtube.com/user/onewhoiswatching

[gruden2.0]

One issue I have with Snuffer is something I read in the paper:

This comes after his lecture series where he castigates those who say they are the one
mighty and strong or the new David. He says that in order to claim the title you have to
do the work. It’s apparent that Denver is trying to “do the work,” among such things
including correcting existing scripture, and revealing new scripture. Works such as
bringing forth sealed records, leading an exodus to Zion, becoming marred, recovering
and then leading the 10 tribes across a highway cast in the north . . . remain to be done.

This strikes me as the same attitude different cults have about forcing events to bring about the Apocalypse/Second Coming, etc. I certainly recognize the concept of self-election, but these activities that carry with the certain requirements that just can't be self-elected. Not everyone is entitled to be a seer. And not everyone is entitled to the fullness of the priesthood. We all have bounds set, and are expected to be satisfied to remain within them. Alma referred to this when he said he did sin in his wish to be an angel proclaiming the gospel.

Some of these things won't even necessarily be done by the same person. I can, for example, tell you there will be multiple people leading remnant groups to gather. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a separate person to do some scriptural translation work (the remnant groups will provide some of this material).

My concern is Snuffer has fallen prey to his own ego. Wanting something and going through the motions don't make it so.

[gruden2.0]

The diagram of issues leading people away from the gospel misses out a number of others.
Most leave, perhaps, because of lack of friendship or social ties to the church.

Yes, I think lack of friendship is probably #1.

from a talk by Elder Marlin K Jensen, years ago:

Years ago when I was serving as a bishop, a recently converted family moved into our rural Utah community. These good people had joined the Church in the eastern United States and had been warmly fellowshipped and put to work in a small branch there. When they came to our larger, more-established ward, they somehow slipped through the cracks. Some of the family members, particularly the father, became disenchanted with the Church and its members.

One Sunday morning when I noticed the father was missing from priesthood meeting, I left the meetinghouse and drove to his home. He invited me in, and we had a very honest conversation about the struggle he was having with his new faith and neighbors. After exploring various possibilities for responding to his concerns, none of which seemed to appeal to him very much, I asked him with a tone of frustration in my voice just what we could do to help him. I’ve never forgotten his reply:

“Well, bishop,” he said (and I will need to paraphrase here slightly), “for heaven’s sake, whatever you do, please don’t assign me a friend.”

I learned a great lesson that day. No one wants to become a “project”; we all want spontaneously to be loved. And, if we are to have friends, we want them to be genuine and sincere, not “assigned.”

~ https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... e?lang=eng

When your ward is a corporation and callings are positions in the corporation, and everyone is "just doing their job", folks will go inactive.

I missed this post earlier. This is so true, but the church never learned. My wife was assigned a friend. It was crushing when she found out. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[gruden2.0]

What is the link to the Watcher blog?

https://onewhoiswatching.wordpress.com/

http://threewatches.blogspot.com/

I think he has another one to, but I'd start with the second with the doctrine of the three watches. The first one is all his blog posts. He has made some fascinating insights into the scriptures.

For those hesitant to wade through years of his blog posts, I recommend his book which distills everything into a structured format:

https://www.amazon.com/Solving-Prophet- ... ref=sr_1_1

I don't agree with everything he says, in particular that Joseph Smith will return, but I will say he's one of the most intelligent Mormon thinkers who gets very little recognition or credit. I've been reading him for years and some of the stuff he comes up with is fascinating. A truly deep thinker who makes an effort to get inspiration and revelation, not just relying on his own thought as many do.

[The Red Pill]

yet they always fail to prove or even to answer - or give any answers -
about the scriptures I posted

That's how it works? We have to answer to the scriptures you post?

You, who fails to answer the Lord's claim in plain and clear English in Section 103 that Joseph Smith is the man who leads the redemption of Zion.

You, who quotes section 77 without understanding its origins. The tip of the spear of your argument is verse 14, but you don't seem to understand that this section is an 1876 addition by BY and Orson Pratt. It is not a 'thus saith the Lord revelation' and it was not canonized by JS. It's an alleged statement by someone else claiming it is from Joseph placed in scripture 45 years later.

The scriptures you quote are not from Joseph Smith. Joseph did not include this section in the 1835 D&C. Joseph did not include this section in the 1844 edition of the D&C. Ever wonder why? Maybe because he knows it isn't scripture or maybe he didn't include it because it never existed.

As fun as it may be to bring a toy gun to a real gun fight, let's at least stick with real scripture or we'll get nowhere.

You make a good point here and one that not many members are aware of.

For example, I graduated from seminary, institute, served a mission, been in bishoprics....but until 3 weeks ago NEVER knew we had a section 101 in the 1835 edition of the D&C that taught strictly monogamy and condemned polygamy...which was taken out by Brigham and replaced with the current section 132. Problem is, 132 was 8 years after Joseph died and not in his handwriting. You can draw your own conclusions on that one.

The point is, the average member has no idea about the history and origin of what they read. Furthur, I think the church has done a poor job on transparency and full disclosure on major doctrinal issues and printed "histories".

I felt like an idiot, like why didn't I get the memo? Then I realized. The memo never went out.

[Wolfwoman]

One issue I have with Snuffer is something I read in the paper:

This comes after his lecture series where he castigates those who say they are the one
mighty and strong or the new David. He says that in order to claim the title you have to
do the work. It’s apparent that Denver is trying to “do the work,” among such things
including correcting existing scripture, and revealing new scripture. Works such as
bringing forth sealed records, leading an exodus to Zion, becoming marred, recovering
and then leading the 10 tribes across a highway cast in the north . . . remain to be done.

This strikes me as the same attitude different cults have about forcing events to bring about the Apocalypse/Second Coming, etc. I certainly recognize the concept of self-election, but these activities that carry with the certain requirements that just can't be self-elected. Not everyone is entitled to be a seer. And not everyone is entitled to the fullness of the priesthood. We all have bounds set, and are expected to be satisfied to remain within them. Alma referred to this when he said he did sin in his wish to be an angel proclaiming the gospel.

Some of these things won't even necessarily be done by the same person. I can, for example, tell you there will be multiple people leading remnant groups to gather. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a separate person to do some scriptural translation work (the remnant groups will provide some of this material).

My concern is Snuffer has fallen prey to his own ego. Wanting something and going through the motions don't make it so.

Keep in mind you're reading one person's interpretation of what has happened or what is happening. And that person is not Snuffer. I suggest you go to the source before you make an opinion about him.

[Shawn Henry]

For those hesitant to wade through years of his blog posts, I recommend his book which distills everything into a structured format:

https://www.amazon.com/Solving-Prophet- ... ref=sr_1_1

I don't agree with everything he says, in particular that Joseph Smith will return, but I will say he's one of the most intelligent Mormon thinkers who gets very little recognition or credit. I've been reading him for years and some of the stuff he comes up with is fascinating. A truly deep thinker who makes an effort to get inspiration and revelation, not just relying on his own thought as many do.

I have to second you here, he's written the best book I've read and yes, he is a very deep and intelligent thinker. He's a great student of our history as well.

[Shawn Henry]

You make a good point here and one that not many members are aware of.

For example, I graduated from seminary, institute, served a mission, been in bishoprics....but until 3 weeks ago NEVER knew we had a section 101 in the 1835 edition of the D&C that taught strictly monogamy and condemned polygamy...which was taken out by Brigham and replaced with the current section 132. Problem is, 132 was 8 years after Joseph died and not in his handwriting. You can draw your own conclusions on that one.

The point is, the average member has no idea about the history and origin of what they read. Furthur, I think the church has done a poor job on transparency and full disclosure on major doctrinal issues and printed "histories".

I felt like an idiot, like why didn't I get the memo? Then I realized. The memo never went out.

Yeah, I felt the same way. I think the biggest and most harmful omission is thinking that we have always been The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints ever since 1830 and not knowing that in May of 1834 all the presiding Elders including Joseph agreed to take the name of Jesus Christ out of the church calling it the Church of Latter Day Saints and also not connecting that downgrade to the fact that it seems to be a result of our failure to build Zion. Imagine saints now going back in time to 1832 and finding out that those saints had never even heard the term latter-day saint. Also, wouldn't you feel like you should know that everything produced after 1834 was produced by a church that didn't have Christ's name in it.

[pjbrownie]

One issue I have with Snuffer is something I read in the paper:

This comes after his lecture series where he castigates those who say they are the one
mighty and strong or the new David. He says that in order to claim the title you have to
do the work. It’s apparent that Denver is trying to “do the work,” among such things
including correcting existing scripture, and revealing new scripture. Works such as
bringing forth sealed records, leading an exodus to Zion, becoming marred, recovering
and then leading the 10 tribes across a highway cast in the north . . . remain to be done.

This strikes me as the same attitude different cults have about forcing events to bring about the Apocalypse/Second Coming, etc. I certainly recognize the concept of self-election, but these activities that carry with the certain requirements that just can't be self-elected. Not everyone is entitled to be a seer. And not everyone is entitled to the fullness of the priesthood. We all have bounds set, and are expected to be satisfied to remain within them. Alma referred to this when he said he did sin in his wish to be an angel proclaiming the gospel.

Some of these things won't even necessarily be done by the same person. I can, for example, tell you there will be multiple people leading remnant groups to gather. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a separate person to do some scriptural translation work (the remnant groups will provide some of this material).

My concern is Snuffer has fallen prey to his own ego. Wanting something and going through the motions don't make it so.

I can see your point. The thing is, if it happens it happens. If it doesn't, then maybe it's all wishful thinking at best, hubris at worst. I wish I knew how it was all going to go down. Right now I'm pretty energized by the ability this man has to get others to do stuff. It's one thing to do things yourself, but to persuade others is quite a feat, especially if fear isn't part of the toolkit for the most part.

[pjbrownie]

I read Denver's material more than I read Joseph Smith's. Denver has improved my image and view of Joseph Smith. Denver has challenged my views of Joseph Smith (I loved the fallen prophet theory

Denver, Phil, and many others have taught many things they have learned from the blogger Watcher, but no one ever credits him. They read him, take his ideas, then rebrand them without ever mentioned who did the first deep dive into our history and into the scriptures. Watcher remains anonymous so he never develops a following.

Val Brinkerhoff's book The Secret Chamber is a great read.

Yeah I've heard that before. But Watcher seems to be focused on this Third Watch construct of prophecy, which interprets Joseph Smith as a fallenish prophet who redeems himself to make intercessory for wicked Saints.

I don't see that idea anywhere in the Remnant, yet it's his signature teaching.

TBH, I see many of Denver's ideas fleshed out from the Apocrypha, from David Whitmer's theology, both in his 1847 interpretations and in his later 1883 adjustments. Phil seems to follow an update of Lyman Wight theology.

So many of these things aren't new. Watcher didn't come up with them.

[pjbrownie]

Which chaos in the Davis group? I miss something? It's been awhile since any podcast, inform us

This thread discusses it better: viewtopic.php?t=66165

[gruden2.0]

Keep in mind you're reading one person's interpretation of what has happened or what is happening. And that person is not Snuffer. I suggest you go to the source before you make an opinion about him.

I've followed Snuffer for many years, I have my own opinion. PJ wrote a concise paragraph describing the situation I observed myself, which is why I called attention to it. If you have any information that Snuffer is up to something else then share it. I remember reading his post when he stated he had been called David, which was pretty much a dead giveaway. 'To the Remnant' blog seems convinced Snuffer is TOMaS.

I can see your point. The thing is, if it happens it happens. If it doesn't, then maybe it's all wishful thinking at best, hubris at worst. I wish I knew how it was all going to go down. Right now I'm pretty energized by the ability this man has to get others to do stuff. It's one thing to do things yourself, but to persuade others is quite a feat, especially if fear isn't part of the toolkit for the most part.

I don't want to overstate it, but there have always been people who were good at getting groups of people to do things. Such things are usually associated with cults and unseemly organizations. And for the record, in my view the Mormon church seems pretty cultish these days.

[BenMcCrea]

Very interesting, thank you for the read!

Weren’t you a part of that movement when it first started?

[FoxMammaWisdom]

Very interesting, thank you for the read!

Weren’t you a part of that movement when it first started?

This is talking about a bunch of "movements" (counting the "other groups" at the end). I hung out with a few of them years ago, learned some stuff, made some friends, made no "oaths and covenants", moved on, and learned a whoooooooole lot more since back then. I never married myself to any group after leaving the church. (Also vehemently and eternally separated myself from one of those entities in the article - writing a blog about being a righteous man, while doing some very evil things. And also pretending to be a man. And yes I have proof. Both the evil stuff, and him not being a man. And no I'm not talking about Snuffer. )

[pjbrownie]

Keep in mind you're reading one person's interpretation of what has happened or what is happening. And that person is not Snuffer. I suggest you go to the source before you make an opinion about him.

I've followed Snuffer for many years, I have my own opinion. PJ wrote a concise paragraph describing the situation I observed myself, which is why I called attention to it. If you have any information that Snuffer is up to something else then share it. I remember reading his post when he stated he had been called David, which was pretty much a dead giveaway. 'To the Remnant' blog seems convinced Snuffer is TOMaS.

I can see your point. The thing is, if it happens it happens. If it doesn't, then maybe it's all wishful thinking at best, hubris at worst. I wish I knew how it was all going to go down. Right now I'm pretty energized by the ability this man has to get others to do stuff. It's one thing to do things yourself, but to persuade others is quite a feat, especially if fear isn't part of the toolkit for the most part.

I don't want to overstate it, but there have always been people who were good at getting groups of people to do things. Such things are usually associated with cults and unseemly organizations. And for the record, in my view the Mormon church seems pretty cultish these days.

That's why I pointed out the part about fear. He tends to avoid using fear as a tactic and avoids elements of the BITE model. That simply means he can be inspiring. All other indications of fulfilling prophecy . . . I try not to get ahead of myself.

[FrankOne]

Maybe I'll take out an insurance policy by being baptized into all of them. Like putting chips all over the roulette board.

ok.. out with the joking.

Groups form because they have different doctrine and then claim authority from it.

Doctrine won't save anyone. No one.

[BenMcCrea]

Very interesting, thank you for the read!

Weren’t you a part of that movement when it first started?

This is talking about a bunch of "movements" (counting the "other groups" at the end). I hung out with a few of them years ago, learned some stuff, made some friends, made no "oaths and covenants", moved on, and learned a whoooooooole lot more since back then. I never married myself to any group after leaving the church. (Also vehemently and eternally separated myself from one of those entities in the article - writing a blog about being a righteous man, while doing some very evil things. And also pretending to be a man. And yes I have proof. Both the evil stuff, and him not being a man. And no I'm not talking about Snuffer. )

Thanks. Very interesting. Unfortunately, no surprise either.

[EvanLM]

but you have no vision for the davidic servant, his conselors and the 144,000

[pjbrownie]

My vision is what the Servant accomplishes. It's right there in scripture. WHEN is my obligation to believe?

If you take Jesus as an example, did I need to know Jesus was the Messiah when he was 12? 26, 30? How about when He started his ministry? Maybe? or maybe after His resurrection? Definitely.

If that's the model, God doesn't expect us to believe and follow anything in anticipation of something, but only after the fruits are made clear and known.

[BuriedTartaria]

Assuming Denver’s claims are true, I personally don’t think he will be TOMAS/Davidic Servant. But I do think that servant may appear from things Denver has been involved with

I see Denver as a “weak thing of the earth” reaching some people in the desert, preparatory for someone greater. A John the Baptist type servant.

[blitzinstripes]

Assuming Denver’s claims are true, I personally don’t think he will be TOMAS/Davidic Servant. But I do think that servant may appear from things Denver has been involved with

I see Denver as a “weak thing of the earth” reaching some people in the desert, preparatory for someone greater. A John the Baptist type servant.

I can kind of see this. Similar to all the protestant reformers that preceded Joseph Smith. They all recognized that the churches were in apostasy and lacking authority, and they attempted to remedy it, however they were not called to BE the servant. They did succeed in laying a foundation upon which made possible the restoration. I see all of these remnant type groups in the same light. I do not think the actual OMAS has made an appearance yet, although the stage is being set. I also believe that many of those who are seeking and have recognized the need for a restoration of authority and doctrine and are currently subscribing to these groups, will ultimately recognize and flock to the servant when he comes.

I haven't subscribed to any particular group, and don't plan to at this time. I'm still waiting and praying that I recognize the true messenger when he comes.