Women and Polygamy

[FoxMammaWisdom]

14 year old child.

Church admits pedophilia.

The end.

By all accounts Mary, the Mother of Jesus, was about 13 or 14 when she gave birth to Christ.

What do we do with this information?

Question it. We already know the stories have been butchered.

Assuming it's true, what do you do with that information?

I suppose that's for each of us to answer individually. Hopefully collectively we start doing something better than today.
But are we refusing to learn things because it's painful and muddy and reality altering, and just assuming it's right because it's talking about Jesus or his mother and it hurts to consider something else?
Imagine hypothetically, how different the world would be if that ONE TINY DETAIL was different and Mary was like say 23 for example. How would the world and ALLLLLL the webs and layers of beliefs and systems and such over the centuries, be utterly different today, if that ONE detail was different?
Goshcakes... they would NEVER sit around in a meeting like the Council at Nicea for eg, or go along with secret combination pacts, or remove books of scripture, or murder to hid information, destroy our real history, translate into multiple languages and different contexts, or change one tiny little detail like that in the Bible to create a tsunami of crapola years later, would they? Naaaahhhh,,,,,
So indeed... what do you do with that information? Do you consider it, and try to find truth - even if it takes the rest of your life going on that journey discovering what they did to this world and how long the deception has been going on - and how big it is? Or do you eat the canned beans you were fed in church and refuse to thoroughly investigate "The Bible" that we already know has been butchered?

[Luke]

Voices in Harmony is a good book. Testimonies from plural wives about the Principle.

Stockholm syndrome. Take away a woman's dignity and sense of worth, make her and her kids totally reliant economically on this man who has other wives...

then ask her for her 'real' opinion on polygamy.

If she hates it and says so she will lose standing in her 'community' of wives. Her husband won't like her as much. She will get bitchiness from her 'sisters'.

99% of women in that situation will say they love their servitude.

Have you ever read the book?

You know nothing about polygamy.

You don’t. You really don’t.

[tdj]

I think consenting adults ought to decide for themselves if they want to engage in something like polygamy. I don't really care one way or another. I doubt I could do it. It's just not something that appeals to me. I can see why men would like it though; They aren't stuck with just one woman to sleep with, and these days they aren't stuck having to provide for all of them. They can go get jobs, with one woman picked from the group to watch the kids. Imagine the money saved in childcare costs. So the man gets a buffet of nightly selections, and isn't burdened with being the sole breadwinner, AND he gets to go around being johnny appleseed with his sperm.

[Wendyw]

-Article on Marriage
From: The History of the Church. Period 1. Joseph Smith. VOL 2. An Introduction and Notes By B.H. Roberts. Fifth Printing 1968
“..therefore we believe that all marriages in this Church of Christ of Latter day Saints should be solemnized. In a public meeting or feast prepared for that purpose, and that the solemnization should be performed by a Presiding High Priest, High Priest, Bishop, Elder, or Priest, not even prohibiting those persons who are desirous to get married by other authority.”- Vol 2, pg 246
“Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy, we declare that we believe that ONE MAN SHOULD HAVE ONE WIFE, AND ONE WOMAN BUT ONE HUSBAND, EXCEPT IN CASE OF DEATH, when either is at liberty to marry again.” Vol 2, pg 247

In the book: Joseph Smith Reveled: A faithful Telling: Exploring an Alternate Polygamy Narrative. By: Whitney Horning. This is a 500 page book of Joseph Smith’s public testimonies against polygamy and countless witness accounts of his character and good standing. Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. He stated that this was an Abomination before God.
The above quote is what he preached to his congregation.
I testify that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God. In order to be a true prophet you must be: honest, chaste, benevolent, trustworthy, and in good standing before God. If Joseph Smith did indeed lie in public about practicing polygamy and sneak behind his wife’s back, Emma Smith to marry others, then he would be a liar, deceitful, and a hypocrite.
You can’t be a prophet if you are a liar and a hypocrite. And, based on his public testimony against polygamy, and the testimonies of others that he never practiced polygamy, I believe him because I believe that his teaching and doctrine are true. Hence he was a true prophet of God.
It was Brigham Young who changed this narrative and created the story that Joseph Smith lied to his wife and married many women because Brigham Young was practicing polygamy. Brigham Young was the deceiver. NOT Joseph Smith!

[Lynn]

In actuality, Mary was 16 & Joseph was 36 when they got married. So she could have been 15 to 16 as to conception. She was already chosen at the age of 4. She was pregnant already. She conceived by the manner of Gabriel invoking the NAME/WORD, not by physical sex (even by an angel). Gabriel designated her as to be the chosen vessel between twelve & thirteen. There were 3 years of preparation. Joseph had a previous wife, and Jesus had an older stepbrother (named Joseph). It seems the first wife had an illness, but not sure what exactly occurred. But there was a falling out betweeen Joseph, the father, and Joseph the step-brother of Jesus. Jesus tried to reconcile the two.

[gkearney]

In actuality, Mary was 16 & Joseph was 36 when they got married. So she could have been 15 to 16 as to conception. She was already chosen at the age of 4. She was pregnant already. She conceived by the manner of Gabriel invoking the NAME/WORD, not by physical sex (even by an angel). Gabriel designated her as to be the chosen vessel between twelve & thirteen. There were 3 years of preparation. Joseph had a previous wife, and Jesus had an older stepbrother (named Joseph). It seems the first wife had an illness, but not sure what exactly occurred. But there was a falling out betweeen Joseph, the father, and Joseph the step-brother of Jesus. Jesus tried to reconcile the two.

What is the source for this information?

[Lynn]

Sorry for the delay. I am quite busy recently, due to working overtime in the door shop (of a cabinet company), as we seemed to have an overabundance of work currently. Then there is the Ukraine issue, as my wife is in Egypt (108+ F there with electricity going out every day it seems) & step-daughter is back in Bucha (where all the atrocities were uncovered) with her aparttment glass windows still patched up (not replaced). And in spare time, building another room & bathroom for my mother which will be Hoveround electric chair compatible (accessible via her chair), plus the sewer hookup, which has run into a few snags slightly uphill.

You asked ...
Not one, not a few, but many sources. Recently, there was discussion of Jesus being in India, before & after his days with the Jews. I had quite a few books myself in my personal library [read most of them in the late 1980s] (my personal library consists of well over a 5000 volume count) that touched on this, be it before or after the 3 years & the Crucifixion. Plus I had access to the local library, Interlibrary loan, and the massive Texas A&M University (TAMU) library (in 3 buildings). However, due to some remodeling in one section of my library, I do not have access to a few of them (books on Jesus' journey into India before & after), plus some valuable notes such as Abraham Lincoln & Joseph Smith, jr. were friends. So I bought a few spares of those, so I could reread them. Plus I found a few more I had not ever heard of. And even a few new ones that just popped up in the past few years.

So pick a spot in my post & I will try to zero in on the source for you.

[innocentoldguy]

Have you all noticed there don't ever seem to be any women defending polygamy here on our threads? Very telling indeed.

Yes. It tells us that you're engaging in yet another logical fallacy. Who defends polygamy is irrelevant to the argument of whether Joseph Smith was a polygamist (he was) and whether the Lord commanded the church to engage in the practice (he did).

[innocentoldguy]

Most Women are uncomfortable with Polygamy now days. I heard our Stake President talking about a lot of Women leaving the church based on that past issue. My friend said that Joseph Smith married a 14 year old. He told her she wouldn't make it too the Celestial kingdom if she didn't. She also said that Emma didn't know about it and caught him cheating on her in the barn. It is on the Church website about him marrying a 14 year old. I love the Book of Mormon and that keeps me from doubting Joseph Smith. What can I say to her or what can I read about this.

If I remember correctly, according to this book, https://byustudies.byu.edu/article/more ... -18401910/, back when the church was practicing polygamy, there were two main reasons that women wanted to be involved:

1. Economics: Polygamy increased the options for women to get out of poverty by marrying more affluential men, since multiple women could marry the same wealthy guy.
2. Exaltation: Polygamy increased the options for exaltation by allowing multiple women to be sealed to the same righteous man.

[innocentoldguy]

Understand that the history we have on the subject was filtered through the Utah church, which practiced it. And they had obvious reasons to create the picture that Joseph taught and practiced it.
Book of Mormon is clear on the subject, as is Book of Commandments up until and shortly after Joseph's death. It doesn't mean the church fell away, In my opinion, we hit a detour - the Lord in his mercy has still worked with us even after we took up incorrect ideas and eventually ended them.

Joseph did practice it. So did Hyrum. Their mom wrote about and defended the practice as well.

[innocentoldguy]

1. He was a polygamist and this was right (I believe this)
2. He was a polygamist and this was wrong
3. He was not a polygamist

I lament my subcategory is not popular.

1. He was a polygamist and this was right
1 a. He was a polygamist and he rightfully followed God by giving the saints this test, which they failed.
2. He was a polygamist and this was wrong
3. He was not a polygamist

It's not popular because it never happened.

[Pazooka]

Have you all noticed there don't ever seem to be any women defending polygamy here on our threads? Very telling indeed.

Because some of us women feel that to argue our support of plural marriage only serves to solidify others in their entrenchment against it. It’s sometimes best to leave it alone rather than supply the wherewithal for you to harm your own souls by speaking ill against a righteousness principle.

And I find that those against it tend to be the ones obsessed with talking about it.

[Enoch]

I think these relationships could/might work if:

1. Adults Chose it for themselves - no manipulative tactics, no ones agency curtailed

2. Those involved cared about each other

3. There was a balance so all husbands/wives/children's emotional, physical, social, mental etc needs were met

4. Limit in number of participants

5. Pre-established game plan, agreement on how things would work

Benefits would be that the joys/happiness found in marriage and children would be multiplied - even though there would be more challenges - just like in successful marriages the joys/happiness would outweigh them -

[Alexander]

Understand that the history we have on the subject was filtered through the Utah church, which practiced it. And they had obvious reasons to create the picture that Joseph taught and practiced it.
Book of Mormon is clear on the subject, as is Book of Commandments up until and shortly after Joseph's death. It doesn't mean the church fell away, In my opinion, we hit a detour - the Lord in his mercy has still worked with us even after we took up incorrect ideas and eventually ended them.

Joseph did practice it. So did Hyrum. Their mom wrote about and defended the practice as well.

“innocent” old guy done be caught lying

[Alexander]

I think these relationships could/might work if:

1. Adults Chose it for themselves - no manipulative tactics, no ones agency curtailed

2. Those involved cared about each other

3. There was a balance so all husbands/wives/children's emotional, physical, social, mental etc needs were met

4. Limit in number of participants

5. Pre-established game plan, agreement on how things would work

Benefits would be that the joys/happiness found in marriage and children would be multiplied - even though there would be more challenges - just like in successful marriages the joys/happiness would outweigh them -

Do these general rules expand toward any type of “marital” arrangement?

[Alexander]

Most Women are uncomfortable with Polygamy now days. I heard our Stake President talking about a lot of Women leaving the church based on that past issue. My friend said that Joseph Smith married a 14 year old. He told her she wouldn't make it too the Celestial kingdom if she didn't. She also said that Emma didn't know about it and caught him cheating on her in the barn. It is on the Church website about him marrying a 14 year old. I love the Book of Mormon and that keeps me from doubting Joseph Smith. What can I say to her or what can I read about this.

Tell her the accusations against Joseph are of the blackest dye; their pretensions are all of the devil and founded in falsehood. Joseph had only one wife.

[Enoch]

I think these relationships could/might work if:

1. Adults Chose it for themselves - no manipulative tactics, no ones agency curtailed

2. Those involved cared about each other

3. There was a balance so all husbands/wives/children's emotional, physical, social, mental etc needs were met

4. Limit in number of participants

5. Pre-established game plan, agreement on how things would work

Benefits would be that the joys/happiness found in marriage and children would be multiplied - even though there would be more challenges - just like in successful marriages the joys/happiness would outweigh them -

Do these general rules expand toward any type of “marital” arrangement?

and these marital arrangements would be?

[Shawn Henry]

Have you all noticed there don't ever seem to be any women defending polygamy here on our threads? Very telling indeed.

Yes. It tells us that you're engaging in yet another logical fallacy. Who defends polygamy is irrelevant to the argument of whether Joseph Smith was a polygamist (he was) and whether the Lord commanded the church to engage in the practice (he did).

There's no logical fallacy here old man, I simply said it's telling, not that it proves anything.

[Shawn Henry]

I think these relationships could/might work if:

1. Adults Chose it for themselves - no manipulative tactics, no ones agency curtailed

2. Those involved cared about each other

3. There was a balance so all husbands/wives/children's emotional, physical, social, mental etc needs were met

4. Limit in number of participants

5. Pre-established game plan, agreement on how things would work

Benefits would be that the joys/happiness found in marriage and children would be multiplied - even though there would be more challenges - just like in successful marriages the joys/happiness would outweigh them -

So, basically everything that was absent the first time.

[Shawn Henry]

Have you all noticed there don't ever seem to be any women defending polygamy here on our threads? Very telling indeed.

Because some of us women feel that to argue our support of plural marriage only serves to solidify others in their entrenchment against it.

Your responses only solidified us against it, because they are sh!!ty responses, completely void of any caring for the teenagers who were forced into the practice. It's religious fanaticism when cowards don't stand in defense of children.

Every time the 5 girls BY married between the age of 15-17 don't get defended, they get raped all over again.

Polygamy could have had a small chance with consenting adults, but its history with children forever taints the practice.

[Enoch]

I think these relationships could/might work if:

1. Adults Chose it for themselves - no manipulative tactics, no ones agency curtailed

2. Those involved cared about each other

3. There was a balance so all husbands/wives/children's emotional, physical, social, mental etc needs were met

4. Limit in number of participants

5. Pre-established game plan, agreement on how things would work

Benefits would be that the joys/happiness found in marriage and children would be multiplied - even though there would be more challenges - just like in successful marriages the joys/happiness would outweigh them -

So, basically everything that was absent the first time.

Yep, and no
1. Angel threatened me so it has to be done.

2. Well the prophet commanded it.

3. Our salvation/exhaltation depends on it.

4. The second wife opens the door to eternity.

5. The spirit testifies to only one individual and they want to impose that.

6. If you don't do this we can't be together in eternity.

7. We're both lost if we don't do this.

8. etc...

[innocentoldguy]

Have you all noticed there don't ever seem to be any women defending polygamy here on our threads? Very telling indeed.

Yes. It tells us that you're engaging in yet another logical fallacy. Who defends polygamy is irrelevant to the argument of whether Joseph Smith was a polygamist (he was) and whether the Lord commanded the church to engage in the practice (he did).

There's no logical fallacy here old man, I simply said it's telling, not that it proves anything.

All your ad hominem arguments, agumentum ad populum arguments, false equivalencies, etc. are logical fallacies by definition. Again, since you can't seem to grasp the basic concepts of logical debate, it doesn't matter who defends polygamy or not. Every woman in the world could condemn polygamy and it wouldn't do a single thing to negate the fact that Joseph Smith introduced and practiced polygamy.

Just because you're ignorant on what a logical fallacy is, apparently, doesn't mean you're not full of them.

[innocentoldguy]

Have you all noticed there don't ever seem to be any women defending polygamy here on our threads? Very telling indeed.

Because some of us women feel that to argue our support of plural marriage only serves to solidify others in their entrenchment against it.

Your responses only solidified us against it, because they are sh!!ty responses, completely void of any caring for the teenagers who were forced into the practice. It's religious fanaticism when cowards don't stand in defense of children.

Every time the 5 girls BY married between the age of 15-17 don't get defended, they get raped all over again.

Polygamy could have had a small chance with consenting adults, but its history with children forever taints the practice.

So, back to your presentism again, huh? The legal age of consent in the 1800s varied by state and year, but did range from 10 to 16 years old. Girls married within this range in monogamous relationships back then too. Do you run around the Internet attacking museums and history classes for "raping" women, or is this just a convenient false argument to justify your apostasy?

[innocentoldguy]

Most Women are uncomfortable with Polygamy now days. I heard our Stake President talking about a lot of Women leaving the church based on that past issue. My friend said that Joseph Smith married a 14 year old. He told her she wouldn't make it too the Celestial kingdom if she didn't. She also said that Emma didn't know about it and caught him cheating on her in the barn. It is on the Church website about him marrying a 14 year old. I love the Book of Mormon and that keeps me from doubting Joseph Smith. What can I say to her or what can I read about this.

Tell her the accusations against Joseph are of the blackest dye; their pretensions are all of the devil and founded in falsehood. Joseph had only one wife.

Why did Joseph's own mother write and speak on several occasions that her sons were involved in polygamy (as was she)?

[Alexander]

Most Women are uncomfortable with Polygamy now days. I heard our Stake President talking about a lot of Women leaving the church based on that past issue. My friend said that Joseph Smith married a 14 year old. He told her she wouldn't make it too the Celestial kingdom if she didn't. She also said that Emma didn't know about it and caught him cheating on her in the barn. It is on the Church website about him marrying a 14 year old. I love the Book of Mormon and that keeps me from doubting Joseph Smith. What can I say to her or what can I read about this.

Tell her the accusations against Joseph are of the blackest dye; their pretensions are all of the devil and founded in falsehood. Joseph had only one wife.

Why did Joseph's own mother write and speak on several occasions that her sons were involved in polygamy (as was she)?

I have not a clue as to what you’re talking about.