Defending Utah - Leaked Memo: Satanic Ritual Abuse is Real and Growing in Utah

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Artaxerxes
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Re: Defending Utah - Leaked Memo: Satanic Ritual Abuse is Real and Growing in Utah

Post by Artaxerxes »

Atrasado wrote: June 2nd, 2022, 7:14 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: June 2nd, 2022, 5:55 pm
Kit-OTW wrote: June 2nd, 2022, 5:39 pm
potatohead wrote: April 18th, 2022, 9:35 pm

Just because the investigation failed to produce substantial evidence of SRA doesn't meant that the investigation has confirmed the nonexistence of SRA, it just means that no proof was found. So the only reasonable conclusion is neither verification nor invalidation of the SRA theory.
There are thousands of victims, and their testimonies, online. The only reason it "fails to produce substantial evidence" is because you have a cadre of perps involved in doing the investigating. That is the pattern established in the highest levels of government that generate MK-Ultra, and the evil Project Midnight Climax. You should read up on that last one. Things will begin to clear. They targeted an officer, or a politician, then video them with a hooker. Then used that to blackmail the person. Only thing is, they found hookers were not enough to truly control their targets, so they went with kids.

We normal, everyday folks, continue to ignore thousands upon thousands of victims of these atrocities, stretching back 50 years. There testimonies verify each other. It is high time, we started putting the puzzle pieces together and realize just how awful our situation is. Truly we are guilty of the blood and sins of this generation because we have failed to stop the Gadianton's from taking over the elements of government.

Watch Kay Grigg's videos - former wife of a top US General who was regularly involved in this evil.
Watch Cathy O'Brian's videos - her parents sold her to the government, so they would not be prosecuted for abuse.
Watch Svali's videos - who grew up in an elite, Satanic family, and experienced horrific abuse.
Which part of Cathy O'Brien's stuff do you find credible? The part where she says that George Bush is a holographic lizard? That's the stuff that's going to persuade people that these aren't just crazy people screaming into the wind?
To me, it seems you must be a member of the Strengthening the Church Members Committee or work for Kirton McConkie. With what is coming out I can't believe you could be this blind. I sure hope the founder bans this particular alias of yours.

You run down Cathy O'Brien. Well, how about Marc Dutroux, Jimmy Saville, Prince Andrew, Ghislaine Maxwell, Craig Spence, Jerry Sandusky, Lawrence E. King Jr., etc. Are those things made up? Are the witnesses for those things crazy?

Christ taught in 3rd Nephi that everything Isaiah wrote about had happened and would happen again. In other words, the things he wrote were ancient things that were symbolic of latter-day things which would happen again. Why don't you read Isaiah and tell me all is well in Zion? Please open your eyes.
No one disputes that there are pedophiles out there. It's funny they defenders of the SRA fantasy immediately retreat to "Well, there are pedophiles out there, so the accounts of people drinking the blood of babies MUST be true."

No one says all is well in Zion. You're making things up instead of addressing the actual arguments that are made.

logonbump
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Re: Defending Utah - Leaked Memo: Satanic Ritual Abuse is Real and Growing in Utah

Post by logonbump »

Artaxerxes wrote: June 2nd, 2022, 5:55 pm
Kit-OTW wrote: June 2nd, 2022, 5:39 pm
potatohead wrote: April 18th, 2022, 9:35 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: April 18th, 2022, 8:31 pm

Is SRA an unfalsifiable theory?
Just because the investigation failed to produce substantial evidence of SRA doesn't meant that the investigation has confirmed the nonexistence of SRA, it just means that no proof was found. So the only reasonable conclusion is neither verification nor invalidation of the SRA theory.
There are thousands of victims, and their testimonies, online. The only reason it "fails to produce substantial evidence" is because you have a cadre of perps involved in doing the investigating. That is the pattern established in the highest levels of government that generate MK-Ultra, and the evil Project Midnight Climax. You should read up on that last one. Things will begin to clear. They targeted an officer, or a politician, then video them with a hooker. Then used that to blackmail the person. Only thing is, they found hookers were not enough to truly control their targets, so they went with kids.

We normal, everyday folks, continue to ignore thousands upon thousands of victims of these atrocities, stretching back 50 years. There testimonies verify each other. It is high time, we started putting the puzzle pieces together and realize just how awful our situation is. Truly we are guilty of the blood and sins of this generation because we have failed to stop the Gadianton's from taking over the elements of government.

Watch Kay Grigg's videos - former wife of a top US General who was regularly involved in this evil.
Watch Cathy O'Brian's videos - her parents sold her to the government, so they would not be prosecuted for abuse.
Watch Svali's videos - who grew up in an elite, Satanic family, and experienced horrific abuse.
Which part of Cathy O'Brien's stuff do you find credible? The part where she says that George Bush is a holographic lizard? That's the stuff that's going to persuade people that these aren't just crazy people screaming into the wind?
Cathy never testified thusly about George Bush. She stated that Bush used a holographic imagery device to demonstrate to his abuse victims that he and his consorts were powerful lizard people and could change their appearance at will.
The effect was to allow the rubes to believe he had great powers and was more than a mere man. Kind of like our church leaders do on TV when they tell us of their superhuman righteousness and godly nature over the pulpit in their "solemn assemblies"

AtevoProst
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Re: Defending Utah - Leaked Memo: Satanic Ritual Abuse is Real and Growing in Utah

Post by AtevoProst »

https://www.deseret.com/1991/9/10/18940 ... eputy-says

TALES ARE BIZARRE BUT TRUE, DEPUTY SAYS

Among the skeptics in law enforcement are those who believe that ritualistic sexual abuse of children occurs both locally and nationally and may be associated with satanism.

- Deputy Dennis Howard of the Utah County Sheriff's Department is one of them. He took 42 reports alleging ritualistic animal or child abuse in 1989."Victims will tell you stories that are so bizarre it's difficult to believe them," says Howard. "But I have no trouble believing it. It's happening in Utah County and in every other county of the state.

"I've talked to a lot of therapists who don't believe the hocus-pocus, but to say the abuse isn't going on is wrong," Howard says.

Howard, who wryly calls himself Utah County's exorcist, transferred back to the patrol division after years of working as a detective. Since his transfer, investigations into cult activities have dwindled.

"When we get a report of child abuse, we investigate that," Howard says. "But we are not actively investigating satanism or the occult."

He says he is uncomfortable with child abuse laws, because people can be put in prison even if there is no physical evidence of the crime. He also says he can name people who are guilty of ritualistic crimes, but "I can't touch them. They are too good at what they do and learn from court testimony" in other cases about how to get away with their crimes.

The majority of Utah County's alleged cult crimes are committed by self-styled dabblers, Howard says. He believes transgenerational satanist groups are operating in Utah but says they are well-organized.

"These people are very mobile and have the ability to pack up and set up anywhere," he says. "I don't care which deity they claim to worship. They are into this (ritualistic crime) to satisfy their own psychological needs."

- While some law enforcement personnel point to a lack of physical evidence for such crimes, the Los Angeles County Commission for Women issued a report on the subject of ritual satanic activities and concluded that "explanations for the absence of found remains include cannibalism, cult access to mortuaries and crematoria, frozen storage of body parts and the retention by cult members of bones and body parts for further magical practices."

- Detective Glenn Parker of the Davis County sheriff's office says ritualistic abuse not only is occurring, it is far more prevalent than reports to law enforcement would indicate.

"It's like rape," he says. "For every one you hear about, there are probably 20 more."

In the fall, hunters uncover most of the ritual sites the Davis County sheriff's office hears about, Parker says. As with Utah County, most of the reports involve self-styled dabblers who build altars or rings or burn spots in the foothills.

During the winter, the groups move indoors, use a shed or a barn for their rituals a few times and then burn them down. If their rituals have included criminal activity, "they burn the evidence," Parker says. "It's extremely difficult to prosecute."

True satanists who commit crimes are even more difficult to prosecute, he says. The crime allegations against such people usually involve child abuse, "and the guy will be your respectable, three-piece-suit, high mucky-muck in government or religion," Parker says.

Investigating the allegations is difficult, because no one wants to believe the victims. Officers who look into the allegations become suspect as well. "All of a sudden, you're as much of a fruitcake as them," Parker says.

Worse, there is significant danger associated with the investigations. People involved with satanism, particularly psychotics or self-styled believers, practice their rituals to gain power. And as Parker puts it, "it doesn't matter what you believe. If they believe Satan's with them, they'll do you."

"Working a ritualistic homicide or ritualistic abuse is probably the hardest thing anyone will do," he says. "And it will destroy a person, personally or professionally, if it goes any way but (a conviction)."

- Lt. Randy Johnson of the West Jordan Department of Public Safety, a self-described expert on satanism and the occult, lectures law enforcement groups and consults with therapists who are treating people who say they have been abused by satanists. He professes fundamentalist Christian beliefs in the devil and a force of evil but is careful to emphasize that non-dominant, alternative religions are valid expressions of spirituality and should not be persecuted for their differences.

"The vast majority of witches are law-abiding, professional, mature, ecologically minded people" who don't acknowledge the existence of Satan, he says.

- Assistant Attorney General Rob Parrish doesn't like to limit discussion of ritualistic abuse to satanism. "A lot of what may be perceived as organized satanic ritual is actually organized ritual child abuse," Parrish says.

As one of three people assigned to investigate and prosecute child sex abuse cases for the state of Utah, Parrish says since 1986, his office has received 12 complaints of ritualistic abuse.

Sgt. Willie Draughon, an investigator for the attorney general's office, says there are many more that never get reported, and some of the reports they have investigated have turned out to be baseless.

Both men say many of the pedophiles they investigate use satanist trappings as a motivator to rationalize their perversion. "Of course, there are satanist groups," says Draughon. "But worshiping Satan or any other entity is not a violation of the law."

For a variety of reasons, allegations of ritualistic abuse are often enough to scare a prosecutor away from a case. One reason is people still harbor prejudice against those who are receiving mental health therapy. But Parrish says that the fact they are in therapy to begin with means something has gone wrong in the course of their lives.

Another reason is plain revulsion. Allegations of ritualistic sex abuse are so distasteful that people don't even want to hear about them.

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Niemand
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Re: Defending Utah - Leaked Memo: Satanic Ritual Abuse is Real and Growing in Utah

Post by Niemand »

Artaxerxes wrote: June 2nd, 2022, 7:30 am
Kit-OTW wrote: May 30th, 2022, 8:34 am
Artaxerxes wrote: March 20th, 2022, 7:55 pm People are people. There are always bad people who do bad things. But the satanic panic of the 1980s has been proven to have been the result of crazy people and a few unscrupulous psychiatrists who wanted to be famous.
I don't know where to even start with you, Artaxerxes. Who do you think came up with the term "Satanic Panic," or "False Memory Syndrome," or even "Conspiracy Theory?"

There is a Wikipedia entry which claims to list all the false Satanic Abuse claims that were made by children in the 1980s. There is one missing though. That is at the Presidio Day Care, which was near San Francisco. So many children claimed awful things done to them underground, including forcing the kids to kill chickens, torture, sexual abuse, ritual, etc. The embodied evil that was in charge, was Colonel Michael Aquino, who established the Temple of Set, and spread it to all the US Air Force Bases. Those kids implicated Aquino. One five year old girl showed investigators the path to walk to get from the day care to Aquino's house, because she had been taken there multiple times.

So, why isn't it included? I will tell you why. It is because numerous children didn't just offer their personal, eye-witness accounts. They had documented and verified STDs. And the Air Base is no more. After that, it was bulldozed.
Because Wikipedia is writing by random people? You know you can just add that to the article if you want to.
Then random people will remove it.

If you want to edit from a mobile phone, forget it, most networks are blocked.

Ah... the idiocy of Wikipedia. I have an acquaintance who was misquoted on Wikipedia and tried to correct the quotation (which was from an academic paper), only to be continually reverted and blocked.

Atrasado
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Re: Defending Utah - Leaked Memo: Satanic Ritual Abuse is Real and Growing in Utah

Post by Atrasado »

Artaxerxes wrote: April 13th, 2022, 11:31 pm
Atrasado wrote: April 13th, 2022, 11:13 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: April 13th, 2022, 7:48 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: April 13th, 2022, 7:14 pm
I guess we're debating subtle nuances in wording. I take your claim of "crazies" as unbelievable. We don't believe crazy people. And by your response, you chalk their claim up to mental illness and not SRA.
I think crazy people are less believable, but not unbelievable. I think it's pretty obvious that a person who has a hard time differentiating fact from fiction is a less reliable witness.

I think mental illness is the better explanation under Occam's Razor. But if the dead bodies these people claimed existed were there, or the basements they claimed they were taken to were anything like what they described, or anything like that, that would make their claims more believable.

But extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. And the word of a crazy person doesn't cut it.
How about the words of sixty or one hundred or a thousand crazy people? Because Bishop Pace didn't talk to one person, he talked to a lot of people and he said he could have talked to many more. Many of these people had no contact with therapists or hypnotists to prompt their memories, at least at the start, if you're worried about that. How many reports are required before they are believable?

The Bible teaches that in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall all truth be established, provided those witnesses agree. One thing I remember Bishop Pace mentioned in his report was how well each of the separate witnesses agreed with each other. Because of that it seems, at least according to God, that the truth of the matter has been established. To get that many people to have congruent testimonies is extraordinary evidence, at least if we are to believe the scriptures.

Also, Bishop Pace said in his report that he believed them. You don't think he was crazy, do you?
You can find two or three crazy people to say literally anything. I think the Lord's standard requires a certain amount of credibility.

They're similar because they were influenced by the same Satanic Panic. When crazy people hear things, they incorporate them into their delusion. That's part of delusional fantasies. These things ebb and flow, and have greatly ebbed since then.

Pace believed them because it was the height of the furor, and subsequent events hadn't shown that this was all just crazy rantings.

But we don't need to take Pace's word for it. They investigated all of the claims of the people Pace interviewed. The "victims" claimed they could show them where bodies were buried, where there were hidden basements, and all kinds of other stuff. How did that turn out?
A couple of points might be relevant here.

1. When the police "investigated" the Miles they called them the day before they visited them. This cutting-edge investigative practice removed any possibility of finding evidence. So if the police didn't find stuff with other accusers, maybe they used similar investigative practices.

2. I suppose crazy people might say all sorts of things. But they don't typically agree about those crazy things. That's why the Lord said that in the mouth of two or three witnesses who agree shall all truth be established. I don't think the Lord left a "crazy person" caveat on that rule, but maybe you know of one?

3. Do you really think this isn't happening? There are so many credible witnesses to this practice throughout the world if you are willing to hear them. Since Satan knows what the Church is and who founded it, why wouldn't he come after the Church? He always has before and he's gotten to presiding high priests in the Book of Mormon and the Bible and prophets (Cain spoke directly with God and had the priesthood) before. So what makes you think we are so special?

4. There are many scriptures talking about problems in the Church in the last days. Do you believe all of God's words? Daniel 8 states that "at the time of the end" a king of a "fierce countenance" who "under[stands] dark sentences" would "destroy the mighty and the holy people." Being a holy people requires ordinances and that requires priesthood so this must be talking about the Church. What better way to destroy the mighty and holy people than to subvert their leaders so that we start to believe in wickedness? Is there evidence of this? We've joined UNICEF, and the WEF, and donated to the NAACP. We support gay rights and because of the Church, it is now illegal for a medical professional to try to help a child overcome homosexual feelings in the state of Utah. We've built a "rainy day" fund worth well over $100 billion dollars and give nothing to the poor, except our paltry fast offerings. It says in D&C 65:38-40,
For it shall come to pass that the inhabitants of Zion shall judge all things pertaining to Zion. And liars and hypocrites shall be proved by them, and they who are not apostles and prophets shall be known. And even the bishop, who is a judge, and his counselors, if they are not faithful in their stewardships shall be condemned, and others shall be planted in their stead.
When is that prophecy going to be fulfilled? In D&C 101 the Parable of the Nobleman and the Olive Trees says that the Lord's servants after many days would invest the Lord's money with the exchangers, become very slothful, and would hearken not to their Lord's commandments and would not build the watchtower as commanded and that the enemy would break down the hedges and olive trees and destroy those servants' works. When is that scripture going to be fulfilled? (to me it seems we are in the midst of its fulfillment) I could literally give you twenty more scriptures like these off of the top of my head, and I'm not much of a scriptorian so there are others who could give you many more. Do you believe those words from the Lord? If not, why not? Do you try to explain them away and say that the current prophet can make some of the words of Christ null and void? How is that even possible? These things will be fulfilled and are being fulfilled right now.

Artaxerxes
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Re: Defending Utah - Leaked Memo: Satanic Ritual Abuse is Real and Growing in Utah

Post by Artaxerxes »

Atrasado wrote: July 29th, 2022, 3:36 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: April 13th, 2022, 11:31 pm
Atrasado wrote: April 13th, 2022, 11:13 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: April 13th, 2022, 7:48 pm

I think crazy people are less believable, but not unbelievable. I think it's pretty obvious that a person who has a hard time differentiating fact from fiction is a less reliable witness.

I think mental illness is the better explanation under Occam's Razor. But if the dead bodies these people claimed existed were there, or the basements they claimed they were taken to were anything like what they described, or anything like that, that would make their claims more believable.

But extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. And the word of a crazy person doesn't cut it.
How about the words of sixty or one hundred or a thousand crazy people? Because Bishop Pace didn't talk to one person, he talked to a lot of people and he said he could have talked to many more. Many of these people had no contact with therapists or hypnotists to prompt their memories, at least at the start, if you're worried about that. How many reports are required before they are believable?

The Bible teaches that in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall all truth be established, provided those witnesses agree. One thing I remember Bishop Pace mentioned in his report was how well each of the separate witnesses agreed with each other. Because of that it seems, at least according to God, that the truth of the matter has been established. To get that many people to have congruent testimonies is extraordinary evidence, at least if we are to believe the scriptures.

Also, Bishop Pace said in his report that he believed them. You don't think he was crazy, do you?
You can find two or three crazy people to say literally anything. I think the Lord's standard requires a certain amount of credibility.

They're similar because they were influenced by the same Satanic Panic. When crazy people hear things, they incorporate them into their delusion. That's part of delusional fantasies. These things ebb and flow, and have greatly ebbed since then.

Pace believed them because it was the height of the furor, and subsequent events hadn't shown that this was all just crazy rantings.

But we don't need to take Pace's word for it. They investigated all of the claims of the people Pace interviewed. The "victims" claimed they could show them where bodies were buried, where there were hidden basements, and all kinds of other stuff. How did that turn out?
A couple of points might be relevant here.

1. When the police "investigated" the Miles they called them the day before they visited them. This cutting-edge investigative practice removed any possibility of finding evidence. So if the police didn't find stuff with other accusers, maybe they used similar investigative practices.

2. I suppose crazy people might say all sorts of things. But they don't typically agree about those crazy things. That's why the Lord said that in the mouth of two or three witnesses who agree shall all truth be established. I don't think the Lord left a "crazy person" caveat on that rule, but maybe you know of one?

3. Do you really think this isn't happening? There are so many credible witnesses to this practice throughout the world if you are willing to hear them. Since Satan knows what the Church is and who founded it, why wouldn't he come after the Church? He always has before and he's gotten to presiding high priests in the Book of Mormon and the Bible and prophets (Cain spoke directly with God and had the priesthood) before. So what makes you think we are so special?

4. There are many scriptures talking about problems in the Church in the last days. Do you believe all of God's words? Daniel 8 states that "at the time of the end" a king of a "fierce countenance" who "under[stands] dark sentences" would "destroy the mighty and the holy people." Being a holy people requires ordinances and that requires priesthood so this must be talking about the Church. What better way to destroy the mighty and holy people than to subvert their leaders so that we start to believe in wickedness? Is there evidence of this? We've joined UNICEF, and the WEF, and donated to the NAACP. We support gay rights and because of the Church, it is now illegal for a medical professional to try to help a child overcome homosexual feelings in the state of Utah. We've built a "rainy day" fund worth well over $100 billion dollars and give nothing to the poor, except our paltry fast offerings. It says in D&C 65:38-40,
For it shall come to pass that the inhabitants of Zion shall judge all things pertaining to Zion. And liars and hypocrites shall be proved by them, and they who are not apostles and prophets shall be known. And even the bishop, who is a judge, and his counselors, if they are not faithful in their stewardships shall be condemned, and others shall be planted in their stead.
When is that prophecy going to be fulfilled? In D&C 101 the Parable of the Nobleman and the Olive Trees says that the Lord's servants after many days would invest the Lord's money with the exchangers, become very slothful, and would hearken not to their Lord's commandments and would not build the watchtower as commanded and that the enemy would break down the hedges and olive trees and destroy those servants' works. When is that scripture going to be fulfilled? (to me it seems we are in the midst of its fulfillment) I could literally give you twenty more scriptures like these off of the top of my head, and I'm not much of a scriptorian so there are others who could give you many more. Do you believe those words from the Lord? If not, why not? Do you try to explain them away and say that the current prophet can make some of the words of Christ null and void? How is that even possible? These things will be fulfilled and are being fulfilled right now.
Again, you can get two people to say anything. You can find dozens of people willing to say the last election was or wasn't stolen. Do I have to believe whichever side just gets two people first?

The two witness rule is what is necessary, not what is sufficient.

Lots of crazy people agree, because they're infected with the same ideas, often from the same people. The evil psychiatrist who fed people these fantasies in the 80s is why there's so many similarities.

That what is happening? Child abuse? Of course. Doing it in the forest under a pentagram and other theatrics? No way.

We aren't special. I just believe in evidence, and there aren't any credible witnesses for this stuff

Daniel 8 doesn't seem to be speaking about the last days. The phrase "the time of the end" is a strange one, but he makes clear that he's speaking of the time of four successor kingdoms to the Greek empire. The successor kingdom to the Greeks was the Romans. The four kings were the tetrarchy. Under Diocletian in the tetrarchy were the absolute worst persecutions of Christians. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dioclet ... ersecution

So, I think Daniel 8 pretty well described that time. I don't see how it describes ours.

Section 65 has been fulfilled. There was a significant cleansing of church leadership shortly afterward.

That is not what 101 says. They are commanded to build, and murmur that they believe there is a better use for the money, as people on this forum are want to do. As it goes on to say, the Lord wants them to keep collecting money and keep buying stuff and buying land. That's what the Church is doing now, much to the chagrin of the murmuring class, as foretold in this section.

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Re: Defending Utah - Leaked Memo: Satanic Ritual Abuse is Real and Growing in Utah

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:09 pm
That is not what 101 says. They are commanded to build, and murmur that they believe there is a better use for the money, as people on this forum are want to do. As it goes on to say, the Lord wants them to keep collecting money and keep buying stuff and buying land. That's what the Church is doing now, much to the chagrin of the murmuring class, as foretold in this section.
Wow... you actually believe that?!

Artaxerxes
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Re: Defending Utah - Leaked Memo: Satanic Ritual Abuse is Real and Growing in Utah

Post by Artaxerxes »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:19 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:09 pm
That is not what 101 says. They are commanded to build, and murmur that they believe there is a better use for the money, as people on this forum are want to do. As it goes on to say, the Lord wants them to keep collecting money and keep buying stuff and buying land. That's what the Church is doing now, much to the chagrin of the murmuring class, as foretold in this section.
Wow... you actually believe that?!
Does it not command us to build and buy land? Does it not say that people would murmur about it?

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Re: Defending Utah - Leaked Memo: Satanic Ritual Abuse is Real and Growing in Utah

Post by Chip »

Guys, the troll hates God. There's no other explanation for its ongoing denial of truth. I suppose it hates us, too, but not for cause. It just hates God and hates truth. It is pointless to engage in discussion with it. Its only effect is to drain the energy of responders. Nobody is ever changed by what the troll says and the troll never changes. It's just an endothermic energy sink looking for heat. You can ignore it.

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Re: Defending Utah - Leaked Memo: Satanic Ritual Abuse is Real and Growing in Utah

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:31 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:19 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:09 pm
That is not what 101 says. They are commanded to build, and murmur that they believe there is a better use for the money, as people on this forum are want to do. As it goes on to say, the Lord wants them to keep collecting money and keep buying stuff and buying land. That's what the Church is doing now, much to the chagrin of the murmuring class, as foretold in this section.
Wow... you actually believe that?!
Does it not command us to build and buy land? Does it not say that people would murmur about it?
The earlier reference was specifically about the parable of the nobleman. That parable says nothing of land acquistions. God will build Zion, but it will not be the way the LDS church is doing it.

Artaxerxes
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Re: Defending Utah - Leaked Memo: Satanic Ritual Abuse is Real and Growing in Utah

Post by Artaxerxes »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:42 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:31 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:19 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:09 pm
That is not what 101 says. They are commanded to build, and murmur that they believe there is a better use for the money, as people on this forum are want to do. As it goes on to say, the Lord wants them to keep collecting money and keep buying stuff and buying land. That's what the Church is doing now, much to the chagrin of the murmuring class, as foretold in this section.
Wow... you actually believe that?!
Does it not command us to build and buy land? Does it not say that people would murmur about it?
The earlier reference was specifically about the parable of the nobleman. That parable says nothing of land acquistions. God will build Zion, but it will not be the way the LDS church is doing it.
Keep reading. Unless you think God put something totally off topic in the same revelation, we should read all of Section 101, and not cherry pick verses. It also says:
70 Which saith, or teacheth, to purchase all the lands with money, which can be purchased for money, in the region round about the land which I have appointed to be the land of Zion, for the beginning of the gathering of my saints;

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Re: Defending Utah - Leaked Memo: Satanic Ritual Abuse is Real and Growing in Utah

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:47 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:42 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:31 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:19 pm
Wow... you actually believe that?!
Does it not command us to build and buy land? Does it not say that people would murmur about it?
The earlier reference was specifically about the parable of the nobleman. That parable says nothing of land acquistions. God will build Zion, but it will not be the way the LDS church is doing it.
Keep reading. Unless you think God put something totally off topic in the same revelation, we should read all of Section 101, and not cherry pick verses. It also says:
70 Which saith, or teacheth, to purchase all the lands with money, which can be purchased for money, in the region round about the land which I have appointed to be the land of Zion, for the beginning of the gathering of my saints;
I read the remainder of that chapter. The parable is very distinct and separate from the rest of that section. The parable is chastising the "watchmen" for wasting funds and not building a tower to warn the people.

Artaxerxes
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Posts: 2298

Re: Defending Utah - Leaked Memo: Satanic Ritual Abuse is Real and Growing in Utah

Post by Artaxerxes »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:53 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:47 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:42 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:31 pm

Does it not command us to build and buy land? Does it not say that people would murmur about it?
The earlier reference was specifically about the parable of the nobleman. That parable says nothing of land acquistions. God will build Zion, but it will not be the way the LDS church is doing it.
Keep reading. Unless you think God put something totally off topic in the same revelation, we should read all of Section 101, and not cherry pick verses. It also says:
70 Which saith, or teacheth, to purchase all the lands with money, which can be purchased for money, in the region round about the land which I have appointed to be the land of Zion, for the beginning of the gathering of my saints;
I read the remainder of that chapter. The parable is very distinct and separate from the rest of that section. The parable is chastising the "watchmen" for wasting funds and not building a tower to warn the people.
Then you misread it. It is not separate. The Lord is not schizophrenic. It is about building and not murmuring, as Judas did, about what else the could be done with the money.

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Re: Defending Utah - Leaked Memo: Satanic Ritual Abuse is Real and Growing in Utah

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 5:02 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:53 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:47 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:42 pm

The earlier reference was specifically about the parable of the nobleman. That parable says nothing of land acquistions. God will build Zion, but it will not be the way the LDS church is doing it.
Keep reading. Unless you think God put something totally off topic in the same revelation, we should read all of Section 101, and not cherry pick verses. It also says:
70 Which saith, or teacheth, to purchase all the lands with money, which can be purchased for money, in the region round about the land which I have appointed to be the land of Zion, for the beginning of the gathering of my saints;
I read the remainder of that chapter. The parable is very distinct and separate from the rest of that section. The parable is chastising the "watchmen" for wasting funds and not building a tower to warn the people.
Then you misread it. It is not separate. The Lord is not schizophrenic. It is about building and not murmuring, as Judas did, about what else the could be done with the money.
What was the entire point of "building" the tower? It had nothing to do with acquiring lands. It had everything to do with raising a voice of warning.

Artaxerxes
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Posts: 2298

Re: Defending Utah - Leaked Memo: Satanic Ritual Abuse is Real and Growing in Utah

Post by Artaxerxes »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: July 29th, 2022, 5:08 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 5:02 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:53 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:47 pm

Keep reading. Unless you think God put something totally off topic in the same revelation, we should read all of Section 101, and not cherry pick verses. It also says:
70 Which saith, or teacheth, to purchase all the lands with money, which can be purchased for money, in the region round about the land which I have appointed to be the land of Zion, for the beginning of the gathering of my saints;
I read the remainder of that chapter. The parable is very distinct and separate from the rest of that section. The parable is chastising the "watchmen" for wasting funds and not building a tower to warn the people.
Then you misread it. It is not separate. The Lord is not schizophrenic. It is about building and not murmuring, as Judas did, about what else the could be done with the money.
What was the entire point of "building" the tower? It had nothing to do with acquiring lands. It had everything to do with raising a voice of warning.
Section 105 makes it that's exactly what it's about:
28 And to have sent wise men, to fulfil that which I have commanded concerning the purchasing of all the lands in Jackson county that can be purchased, and in the adjoining counties round about.
29 For it is my will that these lands should be purchased; and after they are purchased that my saints should possess them according to the laws of consecration which I have given.
30 And after these lands are purchased, I will hold the armies of Israel guiltless in taking possession of their own lands, which they have previously purchased with their moneys, and of throwing down the towers of mine enemies that may be upon them, and scattering their watchmen, and avenging me of mine enemies unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.

Atrasado
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Posts: 1773

Re: Defending Utah - Leaked Memo: Satanic Ritual Abuse is Real and Growing in Utah

Post by Atrasado »

Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:09 pm
Atrasado wrote: July 29th, 2022, 3:36 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: April 13th, 2022, 11:31 pm
Atrasado wrote: April 13th, 2022, 11:13 pm

How about the words of sixty or one hundred or a thousand crazy people? Because Bishop Pace didn't talk to one person, he talked to a lot of people and he said he could have talked to many more. Many of these people had no contact with therapists or hypnotists to prompt their memories, at least at the start, if you're worried about that. How many reports are required before they are believable?

The Bible teaches that in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall all truth be established, provided those witnesses agree. One thing I remember Bishop Pace mentioned in his report was how well each of the separate witnesses agreed with each other. Because of that it seems, at least according to God, that the truth of the matter has been established. To get that many people to have congruent testimonies is extraordinary evidence, at least if we are to believe the scriptures.

Also, Bishop Pace said in his report that he believed them. You don't think he was crazy, do you?
You can find two or three crazy people to say literally anything. I think the Lord's standard requires a certain amount of credibility.

They're similar because they were influenced by the same Satanic Panic. When crazy people hear things, they incorporate them into their delusion. That's part of delusional fantasies. These things ebb and flow, and have greatly ebbed since then.

Pace believed them because it was the height of the furor, and subsequent events hadn't shown that this was all just crazy rantings.

But we don't need to take Pace's word for it. They investigated all of the claims of the people Pace interviewed. The "victims" claimed they could show them where bodies were buried, where there were hidden basements, and all kinds of other stuff. How did that turn out?
A couple of points might be relevant here.

1. When the police "investigated" the Miles they called them the day before they visited them. This cutting-edge investigative practice removed any possibility of finding evidence. So if the police didn't find stuff with other accusers, maybe they used similar investigative practices.

2. I suppose crazy people might say all sorts of things. But they don't typically agree about those crazy things. That's why the Lord said that in the mouth of two or three witnesses who agree shall all truth be established. I don't think the Lord left a "crazy person" caveat on that rule, but maybe you know of one?

3. Do you really think this isn't happening? There are so many credible witnesses to this practice throughout the world if you are willing to hear them. Since Satan knows what the Church is and who founded it, why wouldn't he come after the Church? He always has before and he's gotten to presiding high priests in the Book of Mormon and the Bible and prophets (Cain spoke directly with God and had the priesthood) before. So what makes you think we are so special?

4. There are many scriptures talking about problems in the Church in the last days. Do you believe all of God's words? Daniel 8 states that "at the time of the end" a king of a "fierce countenance" who "under[stands] dark sentences" would "destroy the mighty and the holy people." Being a holy people requires ordinances and that requires priesthood so this must be talking about the Church. What better way to destroy the mighty and holy people than to subvert their leaders so that we start to believe in wickedness? Is there evidence of this? We've joined UNICEF, and the WEF, and donated to the NAACP. We support gay rights and because of the Church, it is now illegal for a medical professional to try to help a child overcome homosexual feelings in the state of Utah. We've built a "rainy day" fund worth well over $100 billion dollars and give nothing to the poor, except our paltry fast offerings. It says in D&C 65:38-40,
For it shall come to pass that the inhabitants of Zion shall judge all things pertaining to Zion. And liars and hypocrites shall be proved by them, and they who are not apostles and prophets shall be known. And even the bishop, who is a judge, and his counselors, if they are not faithful in their stewardships shall be condemned, and others shall be planted in their stead.
When is that prophecy going to be fulfilled? In D&C 101 the Parable of the Nobleman and the Olive Trees says that the Lord's servants after many days would invest the Lord's money with the exchangers, become very slothful, and would hearken not to their Lord's commandments and would not build the watchtower as commanded and that the enemy would break down the hedges and olive trees and destroy those servants' works. When is that scripture going to be fulfilled? (to me it seems we are in the midst of its fulfillment) I could literally give you twenty more scriptures like these off of the top of my head, and I'm not much of a scriptorian so there are others who could give you many more. Do you believe those words from the Lord? If not, why not? Do you try to explain them away and say that the current prophet can make some of the words of Christ null and void? How is that even possible? These things will be fulfilled and are being fulfilled right now.
Again, you can get two people to say anything. You can find dozens of people willing to say the last election was or wasn't stolen. Do I have to believe whichever side just gets two people first?

The two witness rule is what is necessary, not what is sufficient.

Lots of crazy people agree, because they're infected with the same ideas, often from the same people. The evil psychiatrist who fed people these fantasies in the 80s is why there's so many similarities.

That what is happening? Child abuse? Of course. Doing it in the forest under a pentagram and other theatrics? No way.

We aren't special. I just believe in evidence, and there aren't any credible witnesses for this stuff

Daniel 8 doesn't seem to be speaking about the last days. The phrase "the time of the end" is a strange one, but he makes clear that he's speaking of the time of four successor kingdoms to the Greek empire. The successor kingdom to the Greeks was the Romans. The four kings were the tetrarchy. Under Diocletian in the tetrarchy were the absolute worst persecutions of Christians. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dioclet ... ersecution

So, I think Daniel 8 pretty well described that time. I don't see how it describes ours.

Section 65 has been fulfilled. There was a significant cleansing of church leadership shortly afterward.

That is not what 101 says. They are commanded to build, and murmur that they believe there is a better use for the money, as people on this forum are want to do. As it goes on to say, the Lord wants them to keep collecting money and keep buying stuff and buying land. That's what the Church is doing now, much to the chagrin of the murmuring class, as foretold in this section.
Sorry, not to be argumentative, but the Church's chapter headings says,
Chapter 8
Daniel sees in vision a ram (Media and Persia), a goat (Greece), four other kings, and then, in the last days, a fierce king who will destroy the holy people.
So you're free to think what you want, but sometimes things mean exactly what they say they do. At least Elder Bruce McConkie thought so and since I'm sure the First Presidency reviewed his work Spencer Kimball must have thought so, too.

Artaxerxes
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2298

Re: Defending Utah - Leaked Memo: Satanic Ritual Abuse is Real and Growing in Utah

Post by Artaxerxes »

Atrasado wrote: July 29th, 2022, 10:55 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:09 pm
Atrasado wrote: July 29th, 2022, 3:36 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: April 13th, 2022, 11:31 pm

You can find two or three crazy people to say literally anything. I think the Lord's standard requires a certain amount of credibility.

They're similar because they were influenced by the same Satanic Panic. When crazy people hear things, they incorporate them into their delusion. That's part of delusional fantasies. These things ebb and flow, and have greatly ebbed since then.

Pace believed them because it was the height of the furor, and subsequent events hadn't shown that this was all just crazy rantings.

But we don't need to take Pace's word for it. They investigated all of the claims of the people Pace interviewed. The "victims" claimed they could show them where bodies were buried, where there were hidden basements, and all kinds of other stuff. How did that turn out?
A couple of points might be relevant here.

1. When the police "investigated" the Miles they called them the day before they visited them. This cutting-edge investigative practice removed any possibility of finding evidence. So if the police didn't find stuff with other accusers, maybe they used similar investigative practices.

2. I suppose crazy people might say all sorts of things. But they don't typically agree about those crazy things. That's why the Lord said that in the mouth of two or three witnesses who agree shall all truth be established. I don't think the Lord left a "crazy person" caveat on that rule, but maybe you know of one?

3. Do you really think this isn't happening? There are so many credible witnesses to this practice throughout the world if you are willing to hear them. Since Satan knows what the Church is and who founded it, why wouldn't he come after the Church? He always has before and he's gotten to presiding high priests in the Book of Mormon and the Bible and prophets (Cain spoke directly with God and had the priesthood) before. So what makes you think we are so special?

4. There are many scriptures talking about problems in the Church in the last days. Do you believe all of God's words? Daniel 8 states that "at the time of the end" a king of a "fierce countenance" who "under[stands] dark sentences" would "destroy the mighty and the holy people." Being a holy people requires ordinances and that requires priesthood so this must be talking about the Church. What better way to destroy the mighty and holy people than to subvert their leaders so that we start to believe in wickedness? Is there evidence of this? We've joined UNICEF, and the WEF, and donated to the NAACP. We support gay rights and because of the Church, it is now illegal for a medical professional to try to help a child overcome homosexual feelings in the state of Utah. We've built a "rainy day" fund worth well over $100 billion dollars and give nothing to the poor, except our paltry fast offerings. It says in D&C 65:38-40,
For it shall come to pass that the inhabitants of Zion shall judge all things pertaining to Zion. And liars and hypocrites shall be proved by them, and they who are not apostles and prophets shall be known. And even the bishop, who is a judge, and his counselors, if they are not faithful in their stewardships shall be condemned, and others shall be planted in their stead.
When is that prophecy going to be fulfilled? In D&C 101 the Parable of the Nobleman and the Olive Trees says that the Lord's servants after many days would invest the Lord's money with the exchangers, become very slothful, and would hearken not to their Lord's commandments and would not build the watchtower as commanded and that the enemy would break down the hedges and olive trees and destroy those servants' works. When is that scripture going to be fulfilled? (to me it seems we are in the midst of its fulfillment) I could literally give you twenty more scriptures like these off of the top of my head, and I'm not much of a scriptorian so there are others who could give you many more. Do you believe those words from the Lord? If not, why not? Do you try to explain them away and say that the current prophet can make some of the words of Christ null and void? How is that even possible? These things will be fulfilled and are being fulfilled right now.
Again, you can get two people to say anything. You can find dozens of people willing to say the last election was or wasn't stolen. Do I have to believe whichever side just gets two people first?

The two witness rule is what is necessary, not what is sufficient.

Lots of crazy people agree, because they're infected with the same ideas, often from the same people. The evil psychiatrist who fed people these fantasies in the 80s is why there's so many similarities.

That what is happening? Child abuse? Of course. Doing it in the forest under a pentagram and other theatrics? No way.

We aren't special. I just believe in evidence, and there aren't any credible witnesses for this stuff

Daniel 8 doesn't seem to be speaking about the last days. The phrase "the time of the end" is a strange one, but he makes clear that he's speaking of the time of four successor kingdoms to the Greek empire. The successor kingdom to the Greeks was the Romans. The four kings were the tetrarchy. Under Diocletian in the tetrarchy were the absolute worst persecutions of Christians. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dioclet ... ersecution

So, I think Daniel 8 pretty well described that time. I don't see how it describes ours.

Section 65 has been fulfilled. There was a significant cleansing of church leadership shortly afterward.

That is not what 101 says. They are commanded to build, and murmur that they believe there is a better use for the money, as people on this forum are want to do. As it goes on to say, the Lord wants them to keep collecting money and keep buying stuff and buying land. That's what the Church is doing now, much to the chagrin of the murmuring class, as foretold in this section.
Sorry, not to be argumentative, but the Church's chapter headings says,
Chapter 8
Daniel sees in vision a ram (Media and Persia), a goat (Greece), four other kings, and then, in the last days, a fierce king who will destroy the holy people.
So you're free to think what you want, but sometimes things mean exactly what they say they do. At least Elder Bruce McConkie thought so and since I'm sure the First Presidency reviewed his work Spencer Kimball must have thought so, too.
I have a number of disagreements with Elder McConkie. I'll live.

Atrasado
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1773

Re: Defending Utah - Leaked Memo: Satanic Ritual Abuse is Real and Growing in Utah

Post by Atrasado »

Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 11:25 pm
Atrasado wrote: July 29th, 2022, 10:55 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:09 pm
Atrasado wrote: July 29th, 2022, 3:36 pm

A couple of points might be relevant here.

1. When the police "investigated" the Miles they called them the day before they visited them. This cutting-edge investigative practice removed any possibility of finding evidence. So if the police didn't find stuff with other accusers, maybe they used similar investigative practices.

2. I suppose crazy people might say all sorts of things. But they don't typically agree about those crazy things. That's why the Lord said that in the mouth of two or three witnesses who agree shall all truth be established. I don't think the Lord left a "crazy person" caveat on that rule, but maybe you know of one?

3. Do you really think this isn't happening? There are so many credible witnesses to this practice throughout the world if you are willing to hear them. Since Satan knows what the Church is and who founded it, why wouldn't he come after the Church? He always has before and he's gotten to presiding high priests in the Book of Mormon and the Bible and prophets (Cain spoke directly with God and had the priesthood) before. So what makes you think we are so special?

4. There are many scriptures talking about problems in the Church in the last days. Do you believe all of God's words? Daniel 8 states that "at the time of the end" a king of a "fierce countenance" who "under[stands] dark sentences" would "destroy the mighty and the holy people." Being a holy people requires ordinances and that requires priesthood so this must be talking about the Church. What better way to destroy the mighty and holy people than to subvert their leaders so that we start to believe in wickedness? Is there evidence of this? We've joined UNICEF, and the WEF, and donated to the NAACP. We support gay rights and because of the Church, it is now illegal for a medical professional to try to help a child overcome homosexual feelings in the state of Utah. We've built a "rainy day" fund worth well over $100 billion dollars and give nothing to the poor, except our paltry fast offerings. It says in D&C 65:38-40,



When is that prophecy going to be fulfilled? In D&C 101 the Parable of the Nobleman and the Olive Trees says that the Lord's servants after many days would invest the Lord's money with the exchangers, become very slothful, and would hearken not to their Lord's commandments and would not build the watchtower as commanded and that the enemy would break down the hedges and olive trees and destroy those servants' works. When is that scripture going to be fulfilled? (to me it seems we are in the midst of its fulfillment) I could literally give you twenty more scriptures like these off of the top of my head, and I'm not much of a scriptorian so there are others who could give you many more. Do you believe those words from the Lord? If not, why not? Do you try to explain them away and say that the current prophet can make some of the words of Christ null and void? How is that even possible? These things will be fulfilled and are being fulfilled right now.
Again, you can get two people to say anything. You can find dozens of people willing to say the last election was or wasn't stolen. Do I have to believe whichever side just gets two people first?

The two witness rule is what is necessary, not what is sufficient.

Lots of crazy people agree, because they're infected with the same ideas, often from the same people. The evil psychiatrist who fed people these fantasies in the 80s is why there's so many similarities.

That what is happening? Child abuse? Of course. Doing it in the forest under a pentagram and other theatrics? No way.

We aren't special. I just believe in evidence, and there aren't any credible witnesses for this stuff

Daniel 8 doesn't seem to be speaking about the last days. The phrase "the time of the end" is a strange one, but he makes clear that he's speaking of the time of four successor kingdoms to the Greek empire. The successor kingdom to the Greeks was the Romans. The four kings were the tetrarchy. Under Diocletian in the tetrarchy were the absolute worst persecutions of Christians. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dioclet ... ersecution

So, I think Daniel 8 pretty well described that time. I don't see how it describes ours.

Section 65 has been fulfilled. There was a significant cleansing of church leadership shortly afterward.

That is not what 101 says. They are commanded to build, and murmur that they believe there is a better use for the money, as people on this forum are want to do. As it goes on to say, the Lord wants them to keep collecting money and keep buying stuff and buying land. That's what the Church is doing now, much to the chagrin of the murmuring class, as foretold in this section.
Sorry, not to be argumentative, but the Church's chapter headings says,
Chapter 8
Daniel sees in vision a ram (Media and Persia), a goat (Greece), four other kings, and then, in the last days, a fierce king who will destroy the holy people.
So you're free to think what you want, but sometimes things mean exactly what they say they do. At least Elder Bruce McConkie thought so and since I'm sure the First Presidency reviewed his work Spencer Kimball must have thought so, too.
I have a number of disagreements with Elder McConkie. I'll live.
I'm curious. You defend prophet, seers, and revelators from we heathens (or so it seems to me that this is how you see us), but as soon as you disagree with one of them they don't know what they are talking about. Don't you see an inconsistency to you approach?

Artaxerxes
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2298

Re: Defending Utah - Leaked Memo: Satanic Ritual Abuse is Real and Growing in Utah

Post by Artaxerxes »

Atrasado wrote: July 30th, 2022, 12:49 am
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 11:25 pm
Atrasado wrote: July 29th, 2022, 10:55 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:09 pm

Again, you can get two people to say anything. You can find dozens of people willing to say the last election was or wasn't stolen. Do I have to believe whichever side just gets two people first?

The two witness rule is what is necessary, not what is sufficient.

Lots of crazy people agree, because they're infected with the same ideas, often from the same people. The evil psychiatrist who fed people these fantasies in the 80s is why there's so many similarities.

That what is happening? Child abuse? Of course. Doing it in the forest under a pentagram and other theatrics? No way.

We aren't special. I just believe in evidence, and there aren't any credible witnesses for this stuff

Daniel 8 doesn't seem to be speaking about the last days. The phrase "the time of the end" is a strange one, but he makes clear that he's speaking of the time of four successor kingdoms to the Greek empire. The successor kingdom to the Greeks was the Romans. The four kings were the tetrarchy. Under Diocletian in the tetrarchy were the absolute worst persecutions of Christians. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dioclet ... ersecution

So, I think Daniel 8 pretty well described that time. I don't see how it describes ours.

Section 65 has been fulfilled. There was a significant cleansing of church leadership shortly afterward.

That is not what 101 says. They are commanded to build, and murmur that they believe there is a better use for the money, as people on this forum are want to do. As it goes on to say, the Lord wants them to keep collecting money and keep buying stuff and buying land. That's what the Church is doing now, much to the chagrin of the murmuring class, as foretold in this section.
Sorry, not to be argumentative, but the Church's chapter headings says,
Chapter 8
Daniel sees in vision a ram (Media and Persia), a goat (Greece), four other kings, and then, in the last days, a fierce king who will destroy the holy people.
So you're free to think what you want, but sometimes things mean exactly what they say they do. At least Elder Bruce McConkie thought so and since I'm sure the First Presidency reviewed his work Spencer Kimball must have thought so, too.
I have a number of disagreements with Elder McConkie. I'll live.
I'm curious. You defend prophet, seers, and revelators from we heathens (or so it seems to me that this is how you see us), but as soon as you disagree with one of them they don't know what they are talking about. Don't you see an inconsistency to you approach?
Nope. I haven't said any of those things.

Atrasado
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1773

Re: Defending Utah - Leaked Memo: Satanic Ritual Abuse is Real and Growing in Utah

Post by Atrasado »

Lots of crazy people agree, because they're infected with the same ideas, often from the same people. The evil psychiatrist who fed people these fantasies in the 80s is why there's so many similarities.
You think it is all Barbara Snow. Seriously? Now I think you are playing devil's advocate to get us to make our best arguments. To me, it seems there is no way you really believe that.

Artaxerxes
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2298

Re: Defending Utah - Leaked Memo: Satanic Ritual Abuse is Real and Growing in Utah

Post by Artaxerxes »

Atrasado wrote: August 1st, 2022, 10:23 am
Lots of crazy people agree, because they're infected with the same ideas, often from the same people. The evil psychiatrist who fed people these fantasies in the 80s is why there's so many similarities.
You think it is all Barbara Snow. Seriously? Now I think you are playing devil's advocate to get us to make our best arguments. To me, it seems there is no way you really believe that.
For the Bountiful incident, 100%. He badgered and badgered these small children until they told her what she wanted to hear. They denied it, but she couldn't have that so she subjected them HOURS of interrogation.

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