The reason why the Church did what it did RE P(l)andemic

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Gadianton Slayer
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Re: The reason why the Church did what it did RE P(l)andemic

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Jason wrote: July 17th, 2022, 9:11 pm But judge away...just remember that what comes around goes around...
I want my friends to call me out. Benefit is, I won’t excommunicate them :)

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Re: The reason why the Church did what it did RE P(l)andemic

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Jason wrote: July 17th, 2022, 9:11 pm But judge away...just remember that what comes around goes around...
Hence the need for righteous judgment.

I believe it's the other way around though. What goes around, comes around.

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Jason
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Re: The reason why the Church did what it did RE P(l)andemic

Post by Jason »

Fred wrote: July 17th, 2022, 10:46 am
Jason wrote: July 16th, 2022, 9:30 pm
Fred wrote: July 16th, 2022, 9:09 pm
Jason wrote: July 16th, 2022, 9:03 pm

I have copies of the marketing documents the Rockefellar Foundation and John Hopkins were circulating in May/June of 2020. This is shortly after Moderna's record breaking discovery. Prior to Pfizer and any others even having a candidate. Prior to any safety and efficacy testing which wouldn't start until September.

The marketing documents discussed ways of overcoming vaccine hesitancy. They discussed targeting trusted community leaders. Faith-based leaders.

They did not discuss the leverage they would bring to bear on such folks.

Suits me just fine. Agree to disagree. You go your way. I'll go mine. I know President Nelson is still the prophet. I struggled with the Covid aspect hard. Nearly turned in my temple recommend and gave up my membership. Over time with prayer I have come to look at things differently. To recognize that choices may not be so cut and dried. That this is likely the most challenging time period in all of history and perhaps the reason President Nelson pleaded with us prior to the Covid outbreak to get ourselves in a better relationship with God such that we could receive our own revelation. To hear Him and not hear them. I've been in positions of stewardship over people and trying to keep the peace in wards and businesses. Particularly difficult in a world so divisive as it is now. Not to mention at a time when satan is raging and the whore has it's tentacles across the entire earth. A time when governments turn on their own citizens. A time when governments collapse and men's hearts fail them. A time gap to get through before building Zion from the ashes. An action that just may require some compromise and keeping one's collective head down to survive as people must choose one side or the other.
Well, for what it's worth I think you did right by not turning in your recommend. The church does get saved.

The organization you speak of is the Secret Clergy Response Team and all major churches joined. I don't think anyone had a gun to their head. It just seemed like the satanic thing to do.

Yes, times are perilous. But Christ takes care of those that follow Him. I think the Q15 should give it a try.
Well that's just the thing...you don't think but you really don't know. You are just guessing. You weren't in the meetings behind the closed doors. And all I am saying is...neither was I...I don't know either. I don't know what leverage was brought to bear.

What I do know is BYU changed course on LBQZ in 48 hours after being threatened in an article with losing non-profit status in Canada. I know that Covid was a government operation brought to light under Trump and continuing under Biden. I know that the 12th Article of Faith states - "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law." I know the church has compromised numerous times throughout it's history when it came to conflict with government. Polygamy being one of the big ones. Literally a 180 degree swing from one prophet to the next. Not to mention the myriad other compromises down to the current day with governments throughout the world.

And frankly after a lot of thought and contemplation on the matter...I don't believe it's the church's duty to conflict with government's of the people. It's the people's individual duty to deal with their government's as they see fit. Even Christ acknowledged the necessity of rendering unto Ceasar.

The bright side though is the government is collapsing under it's own weight. Time is short. We have a dark gap of tunnel to get through but the very bright light of Christ at the end. As the government loses power and authority over the people I suspect we will see the church take on new meaning and direction. A stabilizing force in a world reeling to and fro. But in that process we may see some sorted out all the way into the upper echelon. Time will tell the story.
I suppose it is a matter of priorities. Should I follow satan or God? I can see that much pressure was put on the church to go along. Probably far more than I realize.

Pretend for a moment that the church is your wife. You love your wife, but God even more. A villain comes by and threatens to take all of your wife's money. She has a lot. $150 Billion. That is fifteen million, hundred dollar bills. Each have a picture of Franklin. The money is on pallets and it takes a fork lift to move it around. That is a lot of cash. You must have a very high opinion of Franklin to save that many pictures. So the government threatens to take all of that cash. You know that God's church never leaves the earth, but the church will have a difficult time with no money. You know that if you acquiesce, many members of the church will die from the jabs and disbelief that a so called prophet would sell their souls for a picture of Franklin. You have been so wicked for so long that keeping the church together even if half of them are killed seems better than losing all of those Franklins. You simply do not have the faith to do the right thing and let God handle the rif raf. So you sell out and tell people that Lucifer had the right idea and just keep on stacking those Franklins.

If Russell M. Nelson had told the truth, the government does not have the balls to pull the tax exempt status. Think about it. Every church on earth would rebel against their governments. In the USA the government is outnumbered by citizens with guns. Now maybe this was God's plan for the elders to save the nation. But we won't know, because it did not happen.

If RMN would have told the truth, the membership would have been empowered. With the Spirit of God. Such that no force on earth could prevail against them.

But Oh ye of little faith peed his pants and rolled over and played dead.
Interesting analogy.

Let's look at it another way with perhaps a little liberalism such as you have used.

Let's put you in President Nelson's shoes. You've just pleaded with people a year prior to get themselves in a personal relationship with God such that they don't need your input. They can get their own revelation straight from the source without middlemen. In fact you ardently proclaim that folks likely won't make it without that personal relationship and subsequent personal revelation.

Now the government is pressuring you to proclaim to your people that they need to get the vaccine. That it is safe and effective. As a world renowned doctor in addition to your ecclesiastical position do you put your reputation on the line for a rushed and barely tested experimental solution? From a personal standpoint in protecting the reputation you have earned over a number of decades?

Why would you choose Facebook to put the message out there? Sure later in conference from others...but initially the CIA owned and controlled Facebook (In-Q-Tel was initial investor).

Now Fred we can only guess as to the leverage. But suppose for a minute or two that you are in those shoes. You've got a global membership. You've got a mandate to spread the gospel until the very end when the missionaries are called home. You've got to survive through a period of time when the devil is being allowed his moment in the sun. Perhaps 3 1/2 years of global dictatorship...more or less. You've got to keep those missionaries engaged until the Lord tells you it's time to bring them home.

Perhaps you have some insight and recognize that for most the shot won't be a big deal. Whether it's saline or what have you. Perhaps you plead with the Lord on behalf of the Saints that they will be protected. If you opposed the government you know they will make an example. Air travel will become a thing of the past. In some nations you may as well line the Saints up against the wall for the firing squad. Jobs will be lost. Families will go hungry.

Or you could play their game...go along with it...even perhaps to the very extent and to the letter of recommendations. No one can accuse you of not following the mandates and recommendations to the letter. Bide your time as they collapse under their own weight as the people see through their crap. Even the demorats...and hard core insiders.

Not to mention that you have a mandate...as well as your predecessors...and that is...being subject to the powers that be until the Savior comes to take the reins of government.

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Being There
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Re: The reason why the Church did what it did RE P(l)andemic

Post by Being There »

Jason wrote: July 16th, 2022, 9:03 pm
Fred wrote: July 16th, 2022, 8:47 pm
Jason wrote: July 16th, 2022, 8:02 pm
BroJones wrote: July 14th, 2022, 12:38 am

So let me ask you both, Jason and Sub, do you really think that the Covid-vaxxes are "safe and effective" and a literal "godsend" from Heavenly Father?
You should easily know by my vast number of posts on Covid that I do not consider them safe and effective.

What's your point with the question? Did you not read all of what I wrote? The government operation aspect? No issues with that aspect of Covid but taking issue with church leadership for not taking the organizational suicide path?

They echoed the government tagline....word for word. They lied to us. So what...Joseph Smith lied about polygamy. Maybe other things. Didn't take away from him being a prophet. Bringing the Book of Mormon to light. Nephi killed a defenseless unconscious drunk man in cold blood. Even thought about it for a bit before he did it. 1st degree it would be these days. Pretty sure that is one of the 10 commandments.

You should know better than anyone that church leadership is put in positions where they compromise. Forced you into retirement to silence you and gave Dick Cheney (known gadianton if there ever was one) an honorary doctorate a month later. That was over 20 years ago. Why did they do it? Compromise. Is compromise required to keep the organization intact as evil has it's day in the sunlight? I believe so. To each their own on it...

Fascinating that so many people can get so wrapped around the axle with "safe and effective" while ignoring the prior pleading to get in a relationship with God to get your own revelation and take responsibility for your own actions rather than pointing the accusatory finger at others for doing what they had to do under the circumstances...
I get that you know it is a government operation and that the church is behind it.

I'm having a little trouble with the "they had to" or "they had no choice" to participate part. This life is not predetermined or else there would be no need to go through it. We all have choices. There is no end of days timeline. The prophecies come to pass when the Q15 are evil enough to do so. Otherwise the tribulations are delayed. Or prophecies are fulfilled later. And don't forget that God loves us. If we had repented and followed Christ instead of the Q15, God may have plucked us up like Enoch. Things are not set in stone. God knew that once a democrat was born, it would only be a matter of time until satan controlled all of the country leaderships. That's like predicting a baby will fall down a couple times learning to walk.

I do not agree that Russell M. Nelson was forced to tell lie after lie while joining several satanic institutions and using his trust as a doctor to deceive the entire membership. I don't doubt that the Q15 has been corrupt for a long time, but I do think that they could have turned things around if they wasn't full of pride and simply admitted that they screwed up.
I have copies of the marketing documents the Rockefellar Foundation and John Hopkins were circulating in May/June of 2020. This is shortly after Moderna's record breaking discovery. Prior to Pfizer and any others even having a candidate. Prior to any safety and efficacy testing which wouldn't start until September.

The marketing documents discussed ways of overcoming vaccine hesitancy. They discussed targeting trusted community leaders. Faith-based leaders.

They did not discuss the leverage they would bring to bear on such folks.

Suits me just fine. Agree to disagree. You go your way. I'll go mine. I know President Nelson is still the prophet. I struggled with the Covid aspect hard. Nearly turned in my temple recommend and gave up my membership. Over time with prayer I have come to look at things differently. To recognize that choices may not be so cut and dried. That this is likely the most challenging time period in all of history and perhaps the reason President Nelson pleaded with us prior to the Covid outbreak to get ourselves in a better relationship with God such that we could receive our own revelation. To hear Him and not hear them. I've been in positions of stewardship over people and trying to keep the peace in wards and businesses. Particularly difficult in a world so divisive as it is now. Not to mention at a time when satan is raging and the whore has it's tentacles across the entire earth. A time when governments turn on their own citizens. A time when governments collapse and men's hearts fail them. A time gap to get through before building Zion from the ashes. An action that just may require some compromise and keeping one's collective head down to survive as people must choose one side or the other.
I know President Nelson is still the prophet.
I really wish more members would put ALL their trust in the Lord and listen to Him - His spirit -
than to listen and trust in a false spirit and false prophet. SMH
Not to mention at a time when satan is raging and the whore has it's tentacles across the entire earth.
so true.
The church is proof of that. - just take a look -
The Church and Babylon - you can't tell the difference.
A time when governments turn on their own citizens.
and a time when church's turn on their own members and join governments.

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Jason
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Re: The reason why the Church did what it did RE P(l)andemic

Post by Jason »

BroJones wrote: July 17th, 2022, 12:01 pm
Jason wrote: July 16th, 2022, 8:02 pm
BroJones wrote: July 14th, 2022, 12:38 am
Subcomandante wrote: July 13th, 2022, 10:32 pm

Pithy words, irmão! So many people are falling off to the side...
So let me ask you both, Jason and Sub, do you really think that the Covid-vaxxes are "safe and effective" and a literal "godsend" from Heavenly Father?
You should easily know by my vast number of posts on Covid that I do not consider them safe and effective.

What's your point with the question? Did you not read all of what I wrote? The government operation aspect? No issues with that aspect of Covid but taking issue with church leadership for not taking the organizational suicide path?

They echoed the government tagline....word for word. They lied to us. So what...Joseph Smith lied about polygamy. Maybe other things. Didn't take away from him being a prophet. Bringing the Book of Mormon to light. Nephi killed a defenseless unconscious drunk man in cold blood. Even thought about it for a bit before he did it. 1st degree it would be these days. Pretty sure that is one of the 10 commandments.

You should know better than anyone that church leadership is put in positions where they compromise. Forced you into retirement to silence you and gave Dick Cheney (known gadianton if there ever was one) an honorary doctorate a month later. That was over 20 years ago. Why did they do it? Compromise. Is compromise required to keep the organization intact as evil has it's day in the sunlight? I believe so. To each their own on it...

Fascinating that so many people can get so wrapped around the axle with "safe and effective" while ignoring the prior pleading to get in a relationship with God to get your own revelation and take responsibility for your own actions rather than pointing the accusatory finger at others for doing what they had to do under the circumstances...
Thank you for answering. Interesting. You wrote (Jason): "They echoed the government tagline....word for word. They lied to us. So what.."

Wow... See, I don't think they lied to us in the 12 Aug letter.

In that letter, they said to "follow the wise and thoughtful recommendations of medical experts and government leaders." If one follows the recommendations of Fauci and Biden and Pelosi, he/she will sometimes be badly misled, and I think they were misled in this instance.

Q15 keep telling us that they are "not infallible," and I for one believe that.

Sometimes I read the DesNews and NYTimes and CNN, just to see what the prevailing "narrative" is today.... Often misleading, and as a scientist, I look at data whenever I can - that's why I like to see actual data, and analyze it myself.
Great points! As you note another thing we don't know is what data the government relayed to the leaders of the various organizations in their sales pitch for the vaccine. The medical experts on board. Etc etc etc.

What I know is that the Prophet pleaded with us to get our own personal revelation direct from the source...not from him. To figure it out for ourselves and then hold ourselves accountable. I'm with you all the way on that.

While my personal belief is that the church leadership did the right thing from the organization standpoint. I believe you did the right thing in standing your ground and standing for truth. I've always admired and respected you for your stance...as well as not leaving the church when it would have been so easy to do with the treatment you received. My hat goes off to you!

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Jason
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Re: The reason why the Church did what it did RE P(l)andemic

Post by Jason »

Being There wrote: July 17th, 2022, 9:42 pm
Jason wrote: July 16th, 2022, 9:03 pm
Fred wrote: July 16th, 2022, 8:47 pm
Jason wrote: July 16th, 2022, 8:02 pm

You should easily know by my vast number of posts on Covid that I do not consider them safe and effective.

What's your point with the question? Did you not read all of what I wrote? The government operation aspect? No issues with that aspect of Covid but taking issue with church leadership for not taking the organizational suicide path?

They echoed the government tagline....word for word. They lied to us. So what...Joseph Smith lied about polygamy. Maybe other things. Didn't take away from him being a prophet. Bringing the Book of Mormon to light. Nephi killed a defenseless unconscious drunk man in cold blood. Even thought about it for a bit before he did it. 1st degree it would be these days. Pretty sure that is one of the 10 commandments.

You should know better than anyone that church leadership is put in positions where they compromise. Forced you into retirement to silence you and gave Dick Cheney (known gadianton if there ever was one) an honorary doctorate a month later. That was over 20 years ago. Why did they do it? Compromise. Is compromise required to keep the organization intact as evil has it's day in the sunlight? I believe so. To each their own on it...

Fascinating that so many people can get so wrapped around the axle with "safe and effective" while ignoring the prior pleading to get in a relationship with God to get your own revelation and take responsibility for your own actions rather than pointing the accusatory finger at others for doing what they had to do under the circumstances...
I get that you know it is a government operation and that the church is behind it.

I'm having a little trouble with the "they had to" or "they had no choice" to participate part. This life is not predetermined or else there would be no need to go through it. We all have choices. There is no end of days timeline. The prophecies come to pass when the Q15 are evil enough to do so. Otherwise the tribulations are delayed. Or prophecies are fulfilled later. And don't forget that God loves us. If we had repented and followed Christ instead of the Q15, God may have plucked us up like Enoch. Things are not set in stone. God knew that once a democrat was born, it would only be a matter of time until satan controlled all of the country leaderships. That's like predicting a baby will fall down a couple times learning to walk.

I do not agree that Russell M. Nelson was forced to tell lie after lie while joining several satanic institutions and using his trust as a doctor to deceive the entire membership. I don't doubt that the Q15 has been corrupt for a long time, but I do think that they could have turned things around if they wasn't full of pride and simply admitted that they screwed up.
I have copies of the marketing documents the Rockefellar Foundation and John Hopkins were circulating in May/June of 2020. This is shortly after Moderna's record breaking discovery. Prior to Pfizer and any others even having a candidate. Prior to any safety and efficacy testing which wouldn't start until September.

The marketing documents discussed ways of overcoming vaccine hesitancy. They discussed targeting trusted community leaders. Faith-based leaders.

They did not discuss the leverage they would bring to bear on such folks.

Suits me just fine. Agree to disagree. You go your way. I'll go mine. I know President Nelson is still the prophet. I struggled with the Covid aspect hard. Nearly turned in my temple recommend and gave up my membership. Over time with prayer I have come to look at things differently. To recognize that choices may not be so cut and dried. That this is likely the most challenging time period in all of history and perhaps the reason President Nelson pleaded with us prior to the Covid outbreak to get ourselves in a better relationship with God such that we could receive our own revelation. To hear Him and not hear them. I've been in positions of stewardship over people and trying to keep the peace in wards and businesses. Particularly difficult in a world so divisive as it is now. Not to mention at a time when satan is raging and the whore has it's tentacles across the entire earth. A time when governments turn on their own citizens. A time when governments collapse and men's hearts fail them. A time gap to get through before building Zion from the ashes. An action that just may require some compromise and keeping one's collective head down to survive as people must choose one side or the other.
I know President Nelson is still the prophet.
I really wish more members would put ALL their trust in the Lord and listen to Him - His spirit -
than to listen and trust in a false spirit and false prophet. SMH
Not to mention at a time when satan is raging and the whore has it's tentacles across the entire earth.
so true.
The church is proof of that. - just take a look -
The Church and Babylon - you can't tell the difference.
A time when governments turn on their own citizens.
and a time when church's turn on their own members and join governments.
To each their own judgment and path.

I'll stick with the church...whatever blemishes there might be. I know where the priesthood keys lie and I know the prophesies of the future and the role the church will play here shortly. I know the revelations I have received and I will do everything within my power to be true to that.

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Jason
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Re: The reason why the Church did what it did RE P(l)andemic

Post by Jason »

InfoWarrior82 wrote: July 17th, 2022, 4:01 pm
Jason wrote: July 16th, 2022, 9:30 pm
Fred wrote: July 16th, 2022, 9:09 pm
Jason wrote: July 16th, 2022, 9:03 pm

I have copies of the marketing documents the Rockefellar Foundation and John Hopkins were circulating in May/June of 2020. This is shortly after Moderna's record breaking discovery. Prior to Pfizer and any others even having a candidate. Prior to any safety and efficacy testing which wouldn't start until September.

The marketing documents discussed ways of overcoming vaccine hesitancy. They discussed targeting trusted community leaders. Faith-based leaders.

They did not discuss the leverage they would bring to bear on such folks.

Suits me just fine. Agree to disagree. You go your way. I'll go mine. I know President Nelson is still the prophet. I struggled with the Covid aspect hard. Nearly turned in my temple recommend and gave up my membership. Over time with prayer I have come to look at things differently. To recognize that choices may not be so cut and dried. That this is likely the most challenging time period in all of history and perhaps the reason President Nelson pleaded with us prior to the Covid outbreak to get ourselves in a better relationship with God such that we could receive our own revelation. To hear Him and not hear them. I've been in positions of stewardship over people and trying to keep the peace in wards and businesses. Particularly difficult in a world so divisive as it is now. Not to mention at a time when satan is raging and the whore has it's tentacles across the entire earth. A time when governments turn on their own citizens. A time when governments collapse and men's hearts fail them. A time gap to get through before building Zion from the ashes. An action that just may require some compromise and keeping one's collective head down to survive as people must choose one side or the other.
Well, for what it's worth I think you did right by not turning in your recommend. The church does get saved.

The organization you speak of is the Secret Clergy Response Team and all major churches joined. I don't think anyone had a gun to their head. It just seemed like the satanic thing to do.

Yes, times are perilous. But Christ takes care of those that follow Him. I think the Q15 should give it a try.
Well that's just the thing...you don't think but you really don't know. You are just guessing. You weren't in the meetings behind the closed doors. And all I am saying is...neither was I...I don't know either. I don't know what leverage was brought to bear.

What I do know is BYU changed course on LBQZ in 48 hours after being threatened in an article with losing non-profit status in Canada. I know that Covid was a government operation brought to light under Trump and continuing under Biden. I know that the 12th Article of Faith states - "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law." I know the church has compromised numerous times throughout it's history when it came to conflict with government. Polygamy being one of the big ones. Literally a 180 degree swing from one prophet to the next. Not to mention the myriad other compromises down to the current day with governments throughout the world.

And frankly after a lot of thought and contemplation on the matter...I don't believe it's the church's duty to conflict with government's of the people. It's the people's individual duty to deal with their government's as they see fit. Even Christ acknowledged the necessity of rendering unto Ceasar.

The bright side though is the government is collapsing under it's own weight. Time is short. We have a dark gap of tunnel to get through but the very bright light of Christ at the end. As the government loses power and authority over the people I suspect we will see the church take on new meaning and direction. A stabilizing force in a world reeling to and fro. But in that process we may see some sorted out all the way into the upper echelon. Time will tell the story.
What does the Lord in the Book of Mormon say about all those who unite with the secret combinations?

(Not a rhetorical question. There is a correct answer.)
What does the Lord in the Doctrine and Covenants (another work product from the same man who brought forth the Book of Mormon) say by way of counsel to church leaders regarding government?

What's the 12th Article of Faith?

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Re: The reason why the Church did what it did RE P(l)andemic

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Jason, how do you explain the prophet's insistence that we completely trust the 15 men who lead the church?

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Gadianton Slayer
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Re: The reason why the Church did what it did RE P(l)andemic

Post by Gadianton Slayer »

Jason wrote: July 17th, 2022, 9:47 pm I know the prophesies of the future and the role the church will play here shortly.
Can you elaborate on this? What prophecies show that the LDS org will play a positive role in the last days?

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Re: The reason why the Church did what it did RE P(l)andemic

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Jason wrote: July 17th, 2022, 9:48 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: July 17th, 2022, 4:01 pm
Jason wrote: July 16th, 2022, 9:30 pm
Fred wrote: July 16th, 2022, 9:09 pm

Well, for what it's worth I think you did right by not turning in your recommend. The church does get saved.

The organization you speak of is the Secret Clergy Response Team and all major churches joined. I don't think anyone had a gun to their head. It just seemed like the satanic thing to do.

Yes, times are perilous. But Christ takes care of those that follow Him. I think the Q15 should give it a try.
Well that's just the thing...you don't think but you really don't know. You are just guessing. You weren't in the meetings behind the closed doors. And all I am saying is...neither was I...I don't know either. I don't know what leverage was brought to bear.

What I do know is BYU changed course on LBQZ in 48 hours after being threatened in an article with losing non-profit status in Canada. I know that Covid was a government operation brought to light under Trump and continuing under Biden. I know that the 12th Article of Faith states - "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law." I know the church has compromised numerous times throughout it's history when it came to conflict with government. Polygamy being one of the big ones. Literally a 180 degree swing from one prophet to the next. Not to mention the myriad other compromises down to the current day with governments throughout the world.

And frankly after a lot of thought and contemplation on the matter...I don't believe it's the church's duty to conflict with government's of the people. It's the people's individual duty to deal with their government's as they see fit. Even Christ acknowledged the necessity of rendering unto Ceasar.

The bright side though is the government is collapsing under it's own weight. Time is short. We have a dark gap of tunnel to get through but the very bright light of Christ at the end. As the government loses power and authority over the people I suspect we will see the church take on new meaning and direction. A stabilizing force in a world reeling to and fro. But in that process we may see some sorted out all the way into the upper echelon. Time will tell the story.
What does the Lord in the Book of Mormon say about all those who unite with the secret combinations?

(Not a rhetorical question. There is a correct answer.)
What does the Lord in the Doctrine and Covenants (another work product from the same man who brought forth the Book of Mormon) say by way of counsel to church leaders regarding government?

What's the 12th Article of Faith?
Our current D&C was not approved by Joseph, just keep that in mind. They removed and added to it.

bbrown
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Re: The reason why the Church did what it did RE P(l)andemic

Post by bbrown »

There is not a one size fits all answer here, other than find the Lord and do What he says. Some will be told to stay despite contradictions, others absolutely have to leave for their safety and the Lords purposes. Lehi had to leave, Jeremiah had to stay, Daniel was carried captive, mulek’s party barely escaped. Your answers are not mine. There is no way, good or bad, that the church could navigate the diversity of answers. Being connected to the lord is the only way
Last edited by bbrown on July 17th, 2022, 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The reason why the Church did what it did RE P(l)andemic

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

bbrown wrote: July 17th, 2022, 9:55 pm There is not a one size fits all answer here, other than find the Lord and do What he says.
That is precisely the "one size fits all" answer. 🙂

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Being There
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Re: The reason why the Church did what it did RE P(l)andemic

Post by Being There »

Jason wrote: July 17th, 2022, 9:47 pm
Being There wrote: July 17th, 2022, 9:42 pm
Jason wrote: July 16th, 2022, 9:03 pm
Fred wrote: July 16th, 2022, 8:47 pm

I get that you know it is a government operation and that the church is behind it.

I'm having a little trouble with the "they had to" or "they had no choice" to participate part. This life is not predetermined or else there would be no need to go through it. We all have choices. There is no end of days timeline. The prophecies come to pass when the Q15 are evil enough to do so. Otherwise the tribulations are delayed. Or prophecies are fulfilled later. And don't forget that God loves us. If we had repented and followed Christ instead of the Q15, God may have plucked us up like Enoch. Things are not set in stone. God knew that once a democrat was born, it would only be a matter of time until satan controlled all of the country leaderships. That's like predicting a baby will fall down a couple times learning to walk.

I do not agree that Russell M. Nelson was forced to tell lie after lie while joining several satanic institutions and using his trust as a doctor to deceive the entire membership. I don't doubt that the Q15 has been corrupt for a long time, but I do think that they could have turned things around if they wasn't full of pride and simply admitted that they screwed up.
I have copies of the marketing documents the Rockefellar Foundation and John Hopkins were circulating in May/June of 2020. This is shortly after Moderna's record breaking discovery. Prior to Pfizer and any others even having a candidate. Prior to any safety and efficacy testing which wouldn't start until September.

The marketing documents discussed ways of overcoming vaccine hesitancy. They discussed targeting trusted community leaders. Faith-based leaders.

They did not discuss the leverage they would bring to bear on such folks.

Suits me just fine. Agree to disagree. You go your way. I'll go mine. I know President Nelson is still the prophet. I struggled with the Covid aspect hard. Nearly turned in my temple recommend and gave up my membership. Over time with prayer I have come to look at things differently. To recognize that choices may not be so cut and dried. That this is likely the most challenging time period in all of history and perhaps the reason President Nelson pleaded with us prior to the Covid outbreak to get ourselves in a better relationship with God such that we could receive our own revelation. To hear Him and not hear them. I've been in positions of stewardship over people and trying to keep the peace in wards and businesses. Particularly difficult in a world so divisive as it is now. Not to mention at a time when satan is raging and the whore has it's tentacles across the entire earth. A time when governments turn on their own citizens. A time when governments collapse and men's hearts fail them. A time gap to get through before building Zion from the ashes. An action that just may require some compromise and keeping one's collective head down to survive as people must choose one side or the other.
I know President Nelson is still the prophet.
I really wish more members would put ALL their trust in the Lord and listen to Him - His spirit -
than to listen and trust in a false spirit and false prophet. SMH
Not to mention at a time when satan is raging and the whore has it's tentacles across the entire earth.
so true.
The church is proof of that. - just take a look -
The Church and Babylon - you can't tell the difference.
A time when governments turn on their own citizens.
and a time when church's turn on their own members and join governments.
To each their own judgment and path.

I'll stick with the church...whatever blemishes there might be. I know where the priesthood keys lie and I know the prophesies of the future and the role the church will play here shortly. I know the revelations I have received and I will do everything within my power to be true to that.
SMH so sad.

Again - another one - that would rather trust in men - and a false prophet,
than to trust in the Book of Mormon and it's warnings to us,
and in Lord and HIS WORDS in the scriptures - but that's - the Modern-day Mormon Mindset.
the blind - blindly following their blind leader.

"blemishes" !
excuse me for not laughing,
They're so full of it - up to their neck in Babylon years ago - and now drowning in it - fulfilling scripture,
that they've completely gone astray - and lost their way, and in TOTAL APOSTASY -
instead of serving the Lord - they serve satan and his World leaders -
who they are just another one of.

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Re: The reason why the Church did what it did RE P(l)andemic

Post by Mamabear »

Jason wrote: July 17th, 2022, 9:11 pm
Mamabear wrote: July 17th, 2022, 6:49 am
Jason wrote: July 16th, 2022, 9:30 pm
Fred wrote: July 16th, 2022, 9:09 pm

Well, for what it's worth I think you did right by not turning in your recommend. The church does get saved.

The organization you speak of is the Secret Clergy Response Team and all major churches joined. I don't think anyone had a gun to their head. It just seemed like the satanic thing to do.

Yes, times are perilous. But Christ takes care of those that follow Him. I think the Q15 should give it a try.
Well that's just the thing...you don't think but you really don't know. You are just guessing. You weren't in the meetings behind the closed doors. And all I am saying is...neither was I...I don't know either. I don't know what leverage was brought to bear.

What I do know is BYU changed course on LBQZ in 48 hours after being threatened in an article with losing non-profit status in Canada. I know that Covid was a government operation brought to light under Trump and continuing under Biden. I know that the 12th Article of Faith states - "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law." I know the church has compromised numerous times throughout it's history when it came to conflict with government. Polygamy being one of the big ones. Literally a 180 degree swing from one prophet to the next. Not to mention the myriad other compromises down to the current day with governments throughout the world.

And frankly after a lot of thought and contemplation on the matter...I don't believe it's the church's duty to conflict with government's of the people. It's the people's individual duty to deal with their government's as they see fit. Even Christ acknowledged the necessity of rendering unto Ceasar.

The bright side though is the government is collapsing under it's own weight. Time is short. We have a dark gap of tunnel to get through but the very bright light of Christ at the end. As the government loses power and authority over the people I suspect we will see the church take on new meaning and direction. A stabilizing force in a world reeling to and fro. But in that process we may see some sorted out all the way into the upper echelon. Time will tell the story.
We don’t have to be in their meetings to know what they are doing. “By their fruits ye shall know them.”
The don’t prophesy
They build to get gain (ensign peak)
They follow after the arm of the flesh
They follow “science”
They team up with other satanic organizations.
They want us to follow them because they “can’t” lead us astray
They teach falsehoods
.
Um yeah sure...not.

Hear Him...not hear them. Still the tagline...and plenty of prophesy and preparation going into the pandemic...but yes they reiterated the government tagline...likely infiltrated to some degree...and a membership coming apart at the seams that doesn't need further divisiveness...

But judge away...just remember that what comes around goes around...
“Hear Him and follow us we will never lead you astray” is doublespeak. There are many scriptures that warn against this.

They weren’t infiltrated by anyone but themselves.
There was plenty of prophesy going into the pandemic? How? Here’s a specific prophecy from Lehi, “Jerusalem will be destroyed.” And it came to pass.
They don’t see or prophesy. If you think they do, please list all prophecies that have come to pass so that we can determine if they’re true prophets.

“And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?
When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shall not be afraid of him.” Deuteronomy 18:21-22

We can’t even use this counsel because there is only silence from the leaders.

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Re: The reason why the Church did what it did RE P(l)andemic

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

Jason wrote: July 17th, 2022, 9:48 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: July 17th, 2022, 4:01 pm
Jason wrote: July 16th, 2022, 9:30 pm
Fred wrote: July 16th, 2022, 9:09 pm

Well, for what it's worth I think you did right by not turning in your recommend. The church does get saved.

The organization you speak of is the Secret Clergy Response Team and all major churches joined. I don't think anyone had a gun to their head. It just seemed like the satanic thing to do.

Yes, times are perilous. But Christ takes care of those that follow Him. I think the Q15 should give it a try.
Well that's just the thing...you don't think but you really don't know. You are just guessing. You weren't in the meetings behind the closed doors. And all I am saying is...neither was I...I don't know either. I don't know what leverage was brought to bear.

What I do know is BYU changed course on LBQZ in 48 hours after being threatened in an article with losing non-profit status in Canada. I know that Covid was a government operation brought to light under Trump and continuing under Biden. I know that the 12th Article of Faith states - "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law." I know the church has compromised numerous times throughout it's history when it came to conflict with government. Polygamy being one of the big ones. Literally a 180 degree swing from one prophet to the next. Not to mention the myriad other compromises down to the current day with governments throughout the world.

And frankly after a lot of thought and contemplation on the matter...I don't believe it's the church's duty to conflict with government's of the people. It's the people's individual duty to deal with their government's as they see fit. Even Christ acknowledged the necessity of rendering unto Ceasar.

The bright side though is the government is collapsing under it's own weight. Time is short. We have a dark gap of tunnel to get through but the very bright light of Christ at the end. As the government loses power and authority over the people I suspect we will see the church take on new meaning and direction. A stabilizing force in a world reeling to and fro. But in that process we may see some sorted out all the way into the upper echelon. Time will tell the story.
What does the Lord in the Book of Mormon say about all those who unite with the secret combinations?

(Not a rhetorical question. There is a correct answer.)
What does the Lord in the Doctrine and Covenants (another work product from the same man who brought forth the Book of Mormon) say by way of counsel to church leaders regarding government?

What's the 12th Article of Faith?
Obedience to government is absolute to you? Was it absolute to Joseph Smith? Is it absolute to the Lord?

Perhaps, maybe obedience to government only applies when that government is not infringing on our rights?


Furthermore.....


Did our church join with the United Nations to implement Agenda 2030 because the laws of the land forced our church to join? Or did we join out of the free will and choice of our church leaders?


Further Furthermore...

You did not answer the question. What did the Lord say about all those who join with the secret combinations? Hint: He said that they would be destroyed. According to your proposed logic, the Lord wants our church destroyed because the Lord also wants us to obey satan.... ? Do you hear how asinine that sounds?

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Re: The reason why the Church did what it did RE P(l)andemic

Post by Mamabear »

Here’s an example of a real prophecy….A prophecy likely never to be heard.

“But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.
13 Woe unto thee, Salt Lake City! woe unto thee, Rome! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.”
Luke 10:12-14
78889DF8-1416-4C82-9900-AD98377FD9DF.jpeg
78889DF8-1416-4C82-9900-AD98377FD9DF.jpeg (401.92 KiB) Viewed 345 times
Ask yourself why this does not nor will not happen.

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Re: The reason why the Church did what it did RE P(l)andemic

Post by Niyr »

Moroni104 wrote: July 13th, 2022, 4:09 pm Thanks for responding so fast.

So, let me see if I can rephrase your response.

By July of 2021, the state of Texas, with a population of 28 million and a GDP that is the 9th largest in the world, had entirely stopped using masks except where common sense dictates (which is a very small number of situations.)

The first presidency issues a statement saying we should be vaccinated.

Next thing you know, general authorities decide they want to show their enthusiasm in fighting this war, and unable to have any sort of nuance about Texas vs. Nevada, decide that an area with 350,000 members, and 4 temples, which had stopped wearing masks, should now start back up?

We then wore them for 6 months and then stopped.

You say
The Church, as a PRIVATE RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATION, made that call, and such is their right
Of course, we know the Church CAN do that. It is another straw-man to bring that up. Nobody thinks the Church doesn't have the right to do it.

Are you honestly arguing that this 6 months of mask wearing in Texas from July of 2021 to December of 2022 somehow was a good idea? Are you saying the temple restrictions were a good idea?

If so why?

If the answer is "no they didn't help us", then why do you think something going on in Mozambique would make me feel better about it?

Are you just saying that the Church is so big and has so many important decisions it is making, that it is incapable of setting policy specific to a place as big as Texas? It is just that incompetent? Is that what you are saying?

What should I tell my children when they ask me why we wore masks during those 6 months?

Also you say that you have to wear masks in Mexico. Do you think that is a good thing? Why? If so, when will it be good to stop? In another 2 years? 5 years?
A little late to the tyranny party, but the Sub's irony itched me terribly. Sub's whole point of this topic was spelled out himself, "Because the work of the Lord must go forward."
Yet, the members of Texas (and many other places in the US) were prevented from fully participating in progressing the work of the Lord forward in less tyrannical areas of the world?

He also is championing the one-size-fits-all mantra, which is foolish and never works. It doesn't work for government and it doesn't work within the Gospel either. So since Mozambique has more tyrannical laws than the US, we should live the same way that they do?

Tell me how any of that makes sense, Sub. Unless you want everyone to live under the same tyranny everywhere. A global government stooge or woefully ignorant?

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Re: The reason why the Church did what it did RE P(l)andemic

Post by Sarah »

We can see some instances where the prophet has been prophetic.

I don't think it a coincidence that right before the pandemic hit the prophet introduced Come Follow Me and said it was time to have a more home-centered church. What a blessing it was to have a manual for families to help guide them in their scripture study while we were having home church. I also don't see it as a coincidence that before lockdowns and sickness, we had the VT/HT programs switched to ministering, where the focus was not so much on a monthly visit.

I's noteworthy that the Proclamation on the Family came out right before an explosion of alternative family propaganda and also right before the internet was a thing. I was a senior in high school when it came out, and back then being gay wasn't as popular, transgender stuff wasn't popular. And they did predict that those nations who see the disintegration of the family will face all the calamities foretold.

I've had my own revelation that the church will be the vehicle to the gathering both spiritually and temporarily.

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Re: The reason why the Church did what it did RE P(l)andemic

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Sarah wrote: July 18th, 2022, 9:25 am We can see some instances where the prophet has been prophetic.

I don't think it a coincidence that right before the pandemic hit the prophet introduced Come Follow Me and said it was time to have a more home-centered church. What a blessing it was to have a manual for families to help guide them in their scripture study while we were having home church. I also don't see it as a coincidence that before lockdowns and sickness, we had the VT/HT programs switched to ministering, where the focus was not so much on a monthly visit.

I's noteworthy that the Proclamation on the Family came out right before an explosion of alternative family propaganda and also right before the internet was a thing. I was a senior in high school when it came out, and back then being gay wasn't as popular, transgender stuff wasn't popular. And they did predict that those nations who see the disintegration of the family will face all the calamities foretold.

I've had my own revelation that the church will be the vehicle to the gathering both spiritually and temporarily.
CMF is not prophetic, sorry. In fact, it was a way for the church to program member's way of thinking into a specific ideology. Also, the idea of teaching the gospel in our homes should not be this revolutionary "prophetic" concept. It just means the church was missing the mark for many prior generations.

Ministering was a policy change, not revelation. In fact, I think it may have been a step backwards in many regards.

The proclamation was rewording some gospel principles, along with some questionable aspects.

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Re: The reason why the Church did what it did RE P(l)andemic

Post by Sarah »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: July 18th, 2022, 9:49 am
Sarah wrote: July 18th, 2022, 9:25 am We can see some instances where the prophet has been prophetic.

I don't think it a coincidence that right before the pandemic hit the prophet introduced Come Follow Me and said it was time to have a more home-centered church. What a blessing it was to have a manual for families to help guide them in their scripture study while we were having home church. I also don't see it as a coincidence that before lockdowns and sickness, we had the VT/HT programs switched to ministering, where the focus was not so much on a monthly visit.

I's noteworthy that the Proclamation on the Family came out right before an explosion of alternative family propaganda and also right before the internet was a thing. I was a senior in high school when it came out, and back then being gay wasn't as popular, transgender stuff wasn't popular. And they did predict that those nations who see the disintegration of the family will face all the calamities foretold.

I've had my own revelation that the church will be the vehicle to the gathering both spiritually and temporarily.
CMF is not prophetic, sorry. In fact, it was a way for the church to program member's way of thinking into a specific ideology. Also, the idea of teaching the gospel in our homes should not be this revolutionary "prophetic" concept. It just means the church was missing the mark for many prior generations.

Ministering was a policy change, not revelation. In fact, I think it may have been a step backwards in many regards.

The proclamation was rewording some gospel principles, along with some questionable aspects.
I don't think the idea of home church is a perfect idea. Yes, we should be teaching in our homes for sure, but we're also commanded to gather to worship together (take the sacrament together, pray sing etc.), so I think this was specific direction inspired for the time we would have to live through.

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Re: The reason why the Church did what it did RE P(l)andemic

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Sarah wrote: July 18th, 2022, 9:56 am I don't think the idea of home church is a perfect idea. Yes, we should be teaching in our homes for sure, but we're also commanded to gather to worship together (take the sacrament together, pray sing etc.), so I think this was specific direction inspired for the time we would have to live through.
Worshipping at home does not mean you have to do it alone. We have worshipped with other families. We do take the sacrament together, pray, sing, etc.

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Re: The reason why the Church did what it did RE P(l)andemic

Post by Mamabear »

Sarah wrote: July 18th, 2022, 9:25 am We can see some instances where the prophet has been prophetic.

I don't think it a coincidence that right before the pandemic hit the prophet introduced Come Follow Me and said it was time to have a more home-centered church. What a blessing it was to have a manual for families to help guide them in their scripture study while we were having home church. I also don't see it as a coincidence that before lockdowns and sickness, we had the VT/HT programs switched to ministering, where the focus was not so much on a monthly visit.

I's noteworthy that the Proclamation on the Family came out right before an explosion of alternative family propaganda and also right before the internet was a thing. I was a senior in high school when it came out, and back then being gay wasn't as popular, transgender stuff wasn't popular. And they did predict that those nations who see the disintegration of the family will face all the calamities foretold.

I've had my own revelation that the church will be the vehicle to the gathering both spiritually and temporarily.
Come follow me was not a prophecy, nor was it (cfm) necessary to have home centered church. Studying the scriptures as a family has been taught for decades…. The only thing that CFM did was regurgitate the scriptures for us.
Watching church on zoom was the new church from home during the plandemic.

“We can see some instances where the prophet has been prophetic.”
This is not the same as prophesying in the name of the Lord. Don’t you think during the most wicked era the earth has ever known, there would be much more “seeing” going on? “Woe unto Jerusalem” was a phrase many prophets uttered. Where is that in our day? Instead our church is devoting time to accepting all sorts of sin and building websites giving us advice on how to be more inclusive and accepting to the lgbtq community. Is that really what prophets do? Shouldn’t they be outside preaching to all to repent of wickedness and not fearing for their lives?

If they really believed and followed the family proclamation wouldn’t they be reading it to the masses in public who don’t know about it? Wouldn’t they be standing up for traditional families, crying repentance during pride parades in SLC?

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Re: The reason why the Church did what it did RE P(l)andemic

Post by Fred »

Jason wrote: July 17th, 2022, 9:38 pm
Fred wrote: July 17th, 2022, 10:46 am
Jason wrote: July 16th, 2022, 9:30 pm
Fred wrote: July 16th, 2022, 9:09 pm

Well, for what it's worth I think you did right by not turning in your recommend. The church does get saved.

The organization you speak of is the Secret Clergy Response Team and all major churches joined. I don't think anyone had a gun to their head. It just seemed like the satanic thing to do.

Yes, times are perilous. But Christ takes care of those that follow Him. I think the Q15 should give it a try.
Well that's just the thing...you don't think but you really don't know. You are just guessing. You weren't in the meetings behind the closed doors. And all I am saying is...neither was I...I don't know either. I don't know what leverage was brought to bear.

What I do know is BYU changed course on LBQZ in 48 hours after being threatened in an article with losing non-profit status in Canada. I know that Covid was a government operation brought to light under Trump and continuing under Biden. I know that the 12th Article of Faith states - "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law." I know the church has compromised numerous times throughout it's history when it came to conflict with government. Polygamy being one of the big ones. Literally a 180 degree swing from one prophet to the next. Not to mention the myriad other compromises down to the current day with governments throughout the world.

And frankly after a lot of thought and contemplation on the matter...I don't believe it's the church's duty to conflict with government's of the people. It's the people's individual duty to deal with their government's as they see fit. Even Christ acknowledged the necessity of rendering unto Ceasar.

The bright side though is the government is collapsing under it's own weight. Time is short. We have a dark gap of tunnel to get through but the very bright light of Christ at the end. As the government loses power and authority over the people I suspect we will see the church take on new meaning and direction. A stabilizing force in a world reeling to and fro. But in that process we may see some sorted out all the way into the upper echelon. Time will tell the story.
I suppose it is a matter of priorities. Should I follow satan or God? I can see that much pressure was put on the church to go along. Probably far more than I realize.

Pretend for a moment that the church is your wife. You love your wife, but God even more. A villain comes by and threatens to take all of your wife's money. She has a lot. $150 Billion. That is fifteen million, hundred dollar bills. Each have a picture of Franklin. The money is on pallets and it takes a fork lift to move it around. That is a lot of cash. You must have a very high opinion of Franklin to save that many pictures. So the government threatens to take all of that cash. You know that God's church never leaves the earth, but the church will have a difficult time with no money. You know that if you acquiesce, many members of the church will die from the jabs and disbelief that a so called prophet would sell their souls for a picture of Franklin. You have been so wicked for so long that keeping the church together even if half of them are killed seems better than losing all of those Franklins. You simply do not have the faith to do the right thing and let God handle the rif raf. So you sell out and tell people that Lucifer had the right idea and just keep on stacking those Franklins.

If Russell M. Nelson had told the truth, the government does not have the balls to pull the tax exempt status. Think about it. Every church on earth would rebel against their governments. In the USA the government is outnumbered by citizens with guns. Now maybe this was God's plan for the elders to save the nation. But we won't know, because it did not happen.

If RMN would have told the truth, the membership would have been empowered. With the Spirit of God. Such that no force on earth could prevail against them.

But Oh ye of little faith peed his pants and rolled over and played dead.
Interesting analogy.

Let's look at it another way with perhaps a little liberalism such as you have used.

Let's put you in President Nelson's shoes. You've just pleaded with people a year prior to get themselves in a personal relationship with God such that they don't need your input. They can get their own revelation straight from the source without middlemen. In fact you ardently proclaim that folks likely won't make it without that personal relationship and subsequent personal revelation.

Now the government is pressuring you to proclaim to your people that they need to get the vaccine. That it is safe and effective. As a world renowned doctor in addition to your ecclesiastical position do you put your reputation on the line for a rushed and barely tested experimental solution? From a personal standpoint in protecting the reputation you have earned over a number of decades?

Why would you choose Facebook to put the message out there? Sure later in conference from others...but initially the CIA owned and controlled Facebook (In-Q-Tel was initial investor).

Now Fred we can only guess as to the leverage. But suppose for a minute or two that you are in those shoes. You've got a global membership. You've got a mandate to spread the gospel until the very end when the missionaries are called home. You've got to survive through a period of time when the devil is being allowed his moment in the sun. Perhaps 3 1/2 years of global dictatorship...more or less. You've got to keep those missionaries engaged until the Lord tells you it's time to bring them home.

Perhaps you have some insight and recognize that for most the shot won't be a big deal. Whether it's saline or what have you. Perhaps you plead with the Lord on behalf of the Saints that they will be protected. If you opposed the government you know they will make an example. Air travel will become a thing of the past. In some nations you may as well line the Saints up against the wall for the firing squad. Jobs will be lost. Families will go hungry.

Or you could play their game...go along with it...even perhaps to the very extent and to the letter of recommendations. No one can accuse you of not following the mandates and recommendations to the letter. Bide your time as they collapse under their own weight as the people see through their crap. Even the demorats...and hard core insiders.

Not to mention that you have a mandate...as well as your predecessors...and that is...being subject to the powers that be until the Savior comes to take the reins of government.
By the time I got back to my computer, there were several new posts so I want to address some of the later things you said as well. First, it is very likely that everyone hopes that you are right and that all is well. I wouldn't bet the farm on it though. This did not start with the plandemic. The church had already joined forces with the UN and WEF such that later on, Sister Eugenics was allowed to speak to the entire group. Also, if I was a doctor, I do not believe that I would tell a lie that every doctor on earth would recognize as such like a cloth mask stopping a virus. But I am willing to let you live in your world and I in mine as neither of us are likely to change our mind.

I do want to address a statement that you made regarding the power of the Priesthood. I administered to my daughter when she was 9 as she caught H1N1 at school and because of a liver transplant was immune suppressed. I have told the story before and won't bore you with the details. Thing is, the doctors had given up and had attempted to prepare me for her eventual death in 24 hours or so. She was very sick and the doctors said there was nothing they could do. Else, she would reject the liver and die from that. The doctor allowed us an evening alone and told us to bring her into the hospital in the morning where she would be isolated and on an IV and help would be available in the event that anything could be done. I waited until she went to sleep to administer to her. I held the oil in one hand and the instruction pamphlet in the other. In the morning, my wife took her to the hospital as planned. They returned shortly thereafter. I asked what had happened. My wife said that upon examination at checkin, there was no sign of H1N1. A miracle for sure. Now my question. My faith was not exceeding great. If there was anyone that God might ignore, it was me. I was an ordained Elder, so it could have been the Priesthood. On the other hand, women and non-members have also witnessed miracles, so it is not required. God can heal whomever He wants for any reason. As a loving parent, it might be just for the asking.
How can we tell the difference?

The reason I ask is because some say the Priesthood has been removed. Miracles do not require the Priesthood.

It matters because the church has been under condemnation for a long time and I have heard of no miracles recently concerning the Q15.

I would be interested in your response however you wish to address it.

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Re: The reason why the Church did what it did RE P(l)andemic

Post by Sarah »

Mamabear wrote: July 18th, 2022, 10:08 am
Sarah wrote: July 18th, 2022, 9:25 am We can see some instances where the prophet has been prophetic.

I don't think it a coincidence that right before the pandemic hit the prophet introduced Come Follow Me and said it was time to have a more home-centered church. What a blessing it was to have a manual for families to help guide them in their scripture study while we were having home church. I also don't see it as a coincidence that before lockdowns and sickness, we had the VT/HT programs switched to ministering, where the focus was not so much on a monthly visit.

I's noteworthy that the Proclamation on the Family came out right before an explosion of alternative family propaganda and also right before the internet was a thing. I was a senior in high school when it came out, and back then being gay wasn't as popular, transgender stuff wasn't popular. And they did predict that those nations who see the disintegration of the family will face all the calamities foretold.

I've had my own revelation that the church will be the vehicle to the gathering both spiritually and temporarily.
Come follow me was not a prophecy, nor was it (cfm) necessary to have home centered church. Studying the scriptures as a family has been taught for decades…. The only thing that CFM did was regurgitate the scriptures for us.
Watching church on zoom was the new church from home during the plandemic.

“We can see some instances where the prophet has been prophetic.”
This is not the same as prophesying in the name of the Lord. Don’t you think during the most wicked era the earth has ever known, there would be much more “seeing” going on? “Woe unto Jerusalem” was a phrase many prophets uttered. Where is that in our day? Instead our church is devoting time to accepting all sorts of sin and building websites giving us advice on how to be more inclusive and accepting to the lgbtq community. Is that really what prophets do? Shouldn’t they be outside preaching to all to repent of wickedness and not fearing for their lives?

If they really believed and followed the family proclamation wouldn’t they be reading it to the masses in public who don’t know about it? Wouldn’t they be standing up for traditional families, crying repentance during pride parades in SLC?
CFM was helpful, but the real miracle was that "home centered church" became the theme before the pandemic was known.

The prophets warn the public every time there is General Conference. We hear calls for repentance and invitations to come unto Christ. We hear warnings. We have missionaries throughout the earth. We also live in a different time than Bible times - anyone reading the Bible should see that as obvious. The people were isolated and ignorant. We are a global community given the way our communication and trade is. I get the impression while reading the Old Testament that the Lord was happy if the people simply acknowledged and worshiped him rather than Baal, where now we have the Lord's church and the fullness.

We do live in an wicked time but it's also a time that the enemy and false gods are dangerous and we have a global church with lots of members - something that has never happened before on earth. Should I question your own discipleship to Christ because you're not out there on the streets risking your life to preach repentance to the wicked?

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Re: The reason why the Church did what it did RE P(l)andemic

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Sarah wrote: July 18th, 2022, 10:37 am We do live in an wicked time but it's also a time that the enemy and false gods are dangerous and we have a global church with lots of members - something that has never happened before on earth. Should I question your own discipleship to Christ because you're not out there on the streets risking your life to preach repentance to the wicked?
When a man tells you he cannot lead you astray, he is a false god.
When a man tells you to place your complete trust in him, he is a false god.
When a man tells you that you must sustain him, and all other lesser church officers, in order to come unto Christ, he is a false god.

And I do believe there are many in this world risking the persecution of their friends and family with calls for repentance. Many of these people have been exxed from the LDS church. Some of them have been killed for standing up against governments. Sure, we hear some nice words from GC, but the warnings in the scriptures are being ignored. In fact, the church is actively suppressing these warnings in CFM.

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