"He saves us from our sins, not in our sins"

[Redpilled Mormon]

Not sure where I first heard this phrase, but it goes something like this: The Savior came to save us from our sins, not to save us in our sins.

I'm sure I've heard it from some general authorities talks somewhere, probably this phrase sounds familiar to most of you too.

But I was thinking about it, and I think that the whole concept of that saying is flat out wrong.

If the Savior can only save us from our sins, then wouldn't that mean the whole atonement is null and void, and no one is saved? Meaning, that only someone who has managed to attain perfection can avail himself of the atonement.

But if we were capable of perfection, we wouldn't need a Savior to save us. The more I ponder it, the more I tend to think that that particular phrase is wrong, and that the Savior does indeed save us in our sins.

What do you guys think?

[4Joshua8]

I don't personally know much of anything about the source website, but I found this interesting. Found on a quick Google search.

"34 And Zeezrom said again: Shall he save his people in their sins? And Amulek answered and said unto him: I say unto you he shall not, for it is impossible for him to deny his word.
(Alma 11:34)
The intent of the plan of happiness is not for us to sin and then to be forgiven; it is for us become the kind of people who don’t commit those sins any more. Our sins can be washed away in the legalistic sense that the slate is wiped clean and those sins are not held against us any more (justification). More importantly, they can be washed away in the sense that we overcome them and do not commit them any more (sanctification)."

https://bookofmormonstudynotes.blog/201 ... heir-sins/

[Redpilled Mormon]

Zeezrom is one of my favorite people in the Book of Mormon. Maybe that would be considered an odd choice, but I look at it like this.

I ought to have been like Jesus, never sinning. But that's impossible.

If not that, then I ought to be like Nephi, who repented in his youth. But I'm not a youth anymore so...

If not that, then I ought to be like Alma the Younger, who turned away from his sins when he was confronted by an unmistakable miracle. But I have have seen miracles before, and remained unmoved, so...

So now I'm aiming to be like Zeezrom, who finally, eventually, after being a sinner and even a villain and a child of hell, finally in the end softened his heart and came to the Savior's grace and repented.

[nightlight]

Not sure where I first heard this phrase, but it goes something like this: The Savior came to save us from our sins, not to save us in our sins.

I'm sure I've heard it from some general authorities talks somewhere, probably this phrase sounds familiar to most of you too.

But I was thinking about it, and I think that the whole concept of that saying is flat out wrong.

If the Savior can only save us from our sins, then wouldn't that mean the whole atonement is null and void, and no one is saved? Meaning, that only someone who has managed to attain perfection can avail himself of the atonement.

But if we were capable of perfection, we wouldn't need a Savior to save us. The more I ponder it, the more I tend to think that that particular phrase is wrong, and that the Savior does indeed save us in our sins.

What do you guys think?

The scripture means the unrepentant don't have place in Christ.

[FrankOne]

Disclaimer: These are my viewpoints and not to be confused with human construed facts and arguable scripture..

We, as pure children of God, created perfect by a perfect being were given free will. That free will enabled us to use it as we saw fit, not as God saw fit. In this, we lost touch with God, and our own 'selves' are the veil. We are separate because we chose to be separate.

God, understanding our choice to be separate, saw fit to make sure that we all return in time. Whether it is 100yrs or 1 trillion years. The period of delay is up to us, but the returning itself is inevitable. A perfect father creates a perfect plan.

Returning is about letting go of our precious separate will and accepting the will of God. To do the will of the Father..... as Christ very clearly states is a paramount key. If we do the will of the Father.... what about OUR precious will? hm. Not a popular subject for many reasons.

and to the subject of this thread:

There really is only one sin, yet it is actually a simple understandable error which the Father himself knew would happen and prepared for. That error is to decide to be separate from him. Now...here we are, making 'errors' every day of the week.

Is this place 'real'? If so... then a soldier, being in war, having his legs blown off, dying, and going to the other side, looks down and screams in horror that his legs are forever gone! ...but ...hmmm. Wait...there they are! Was the war 'real'? Was his injury 'real'....or ....was it just an experience....like super advanced virtual reality?

"For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son" John 5:22. And what do we know about the unconditional love of Christ and the forgiveness he offers? We just have to find the humility to live and breathe the words.... "I was wrong, I just want to go home, THY will be done"

[Redpilled Mormon]

In the parable of the prodigal son, I notice that the father went running with joy to reclaim the wayward son. I don't remember the part where he stopped the prodigal son at the driveway and said 'that's great that you've finally come to your senses. Now you need to go and put your life back in order, make back all the money you squandered and pay it back, and make sure you're totally perfect, and once that's done I'll call you my son again and let you step foot back onto the property. Until then, scram!'

[blitzinstripes]

The "law", encompassing all of the commandments and even the covenants is AGAINST us. It's the immoveable perfect bar and standard that represents eternal statutes. Each one of us is in violation and ultimately condemnation because of those eternal laws.

Not ONE of us is capable of perfect obedience. And even ONE sin in the smallest degree brings that condemnation upon us and makes us unfit for the kingdom.

You can do your very best to live by every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God and you will ultimately FAIL. Adam failed. Abraham failed. Moses failed. Peter failed. Joseph Smith failed. Because despite how well they did it didn't live those laws, they were incapable of perfect obedience, and so they fell short. All of their good works were never enough. The fires of hell awaited all of us.

UNTIL Christ made an offering of himself to fulfill the ends of the law that was against us and provide forgiveness and redemption. By paying that price he staked his rightful claim to the judgement seat. Ultimately HE, alone will grant salvation and eternal life to whomever he will, based on their hearts.

[Seeker144k]

Not sure where I first heard this phrase, but it goes something like this: The Savior came to save us from our sins, not to save us in our sins.

I'm sure I've heard it from some general authorities talks somewhere, probably this phrase sounds familiar to most of you too.

But I was thinking about it, and I think that the whole concept of that saying is flat out wrong.

If the Savior can only save us from our sins, then wouldn't that mean the whole atonement is null and void, and no one is saved? Meaning, that only someone who has managed to attain perfection can avail himself of the atonement.

But if we were capable of perfection, we wouldn't need a Savior to save us. The more I ponder it, the more I tend to think that that particular phrase is wrong, and that the Savior does indeed save us in our sins.

What do you guys think?

The phrase is not wrong. He redeems us from our sins, not in our sins. This does not void the atonement.

10 And remember also the words which Amulek spake unto Zeezrom, in the city of Ammonihah; for he said unto him that the Lord surely should come to redeem his people, but that he should not come to redeem them in their sins, but to redeem them from their sins.

The difference between these two words is obviously that "in sin" means we are connected to or surrounded by sin whereas "from sin" means we are disconnected or separated from sin.

We must be separated from sin to be redeemed. But this doesn't mean we don't do things we shouldn't.

This is a major repeated teaching in the scriptures, which has led to the false idea that LDS teach and live which is that we must stop sinning to be saved, (self salvation via our own personal works thereby negating the power of the atonement).

There is a principle that is not taught in the church, or known by most members, that resolves this. I wouldn't have seen or know it unless the Lord taught it to me. But, having been taught by the Lord, I now see and recognize that it is taught very well through out the scriptures.

It is that we can in fact do things the Lord doesn't agree with or support, (which we call sins/transgressions), and still remain in His presence in a saved state. Little children exist in this state, (sinning or transgressing while existing in a saved state). Mormon teaches this very clearly. These little children are saved and doing things that we consider sins. Do we say that they are saved "in their sins"? No, we do not.

They are not saved "in their sins" because they aren't sinning... their actions are not considered sins even though they might do the exact same thing an adult would do which is counted as a sin to an adult. To understand this more specifically, let's look at what Mormon taught about children and sinning.

Moroni 8:8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

Notice that Mormon points out a couple of very important things we tend to over look...
1. Little children are not capable of committing sin. - They might do any number of things that would be sin if an adult did them, but when a child does it, it is not considered sin. This means that a child is not saved in sin, but from sin. Not saved in sin because they cannot sin therefore they are not saved in their sins. They are saved from sin, because they can't sin. They are separated from sin so that as Mormon said, "they are no capable of committing sin.
2. The righteous are not called to repentance - This little gem is also taught in the bible by Jesus himself. We tend to think that there is no such thing as a righteous person and that all people must be called to repentance. This is not true. Since it is difficult for some people to believe that a person can become righteous prior to repenting and being baptized, let's just focus on those who have been converted to Christ, or in other words, "saved from their sins" thereby becoming innocent like little children, even when they do things that would be considered a sin if someone else who was not saved did it...

Notice how he draws a line with his words by saying that we do not call the righteous but sinners to repentance. By using these words, he draws a comparison and and contrast between two groups that are at odds, The righteous vs sinners. We can swap out this words with their opposites to help clarify what he is saying...
Righteous vs Wicked
Non-sinners vs Sinners
Therefore, Righteous are not sinners, and wicked are sinners.

Do not call the righteous but sinners to repentance.
Do not call non-sinners but the wicked to repentance.

Can you see that Mormon is telling us that if we are righteous then we are not sinners? He repeats this message again by calling out that, "the whole need no physician, but they that are sick". The rightous/non-sinners are considered "whole/healthy" while the wicked/sinners are considered "sick".

Now that we have laid down that foundation, we need to define what it means to be righteous. The definition is very clear and only includes a single requirement, which will change everything you thought you knew about the gospel. If you meet this requirement, then you are righteous/not a sinner/whole and if you don't, then you are wicked/a sinner/sick.

Here are the verses where the lord tells us the difference between the righteous and the wicked.

D&C 84:52-53
52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.
53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked...

Mosiah 26:21 & 28
21 And he that will hear my voice shall be my sheep; and him shall ye receive into the church, and him will I also receive.
…
28 Therefore I say unto you, that he that will not hear my voice, the same shall ye not receive into my church, for him I will not receive at the last day.

D&C 38:6
6 And even so will I cause the wicked to be kept, that will not hear my voice but harden their hearts, and wo, wo, wo, is their doom…

Mosiah 16:2
2 And then shall the wicked be cast out, and they shall have cause to howl, and weep, and wail, and gnash their teeth; and this because they would not hearken unto the voice of the Lord; therefore the Lord redeemeth them not.

So, the ability to hear the Lord's voice determines whether a person is righteous or wicked, and also whether they are are or will be redeemed or not.
The righteous hear the Lord's voice and the wicked do not.

What then is the Lord's voice? The Lord repeats to us the answer to this question in the following verses.

D&C 18:35-36
35 For it is my voice which speaketh them unto you; for they are given by my Spirit unto you, ...
36 Wherefore, you can testify that you have heard my voice, and know my words.

D&C 75:1
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, I who speak even by the voice of my Spirit, even Alpha and Omega, your Lord and your God—

D&C 97:1
1 Verily I say unto you my friends, I speak unto you with my voice, even the voice of my Spirit, that I may show unto you my will...

D&C 88:66
66 Behold, that which you hear is as the voice of one crying in the wilderness—in the wilderness, because you cannot see him—my voice, because my voice is Spirit; my Spirit is truth; truth abideth and hath no end; and if it be in you it shall abound.

D&C 68:3-4
3 And this is the ensample unto them, that they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost.
4 And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.

So, the spirit is the voice of the Lord and the righteous can hear that voice while the wicked cannot. The righteous who hear that voice will be redeemed but the wicked will not be redeemed. (This is the separating line between the Telestial and Terrestrial kingdoms. Terrestrial people are righteous whereas Telestial people are wicked, just as little children are righteous and sinners are wicked.)

Now that we have defined "the righteous", let's go back and reread what Mormon was saying...

Moroni 8:8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous/non-sinners/those who hear the Lord's voice but sinners/wicked/those who cannot hear the Lord's voice to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

Of course little children are righteous and as such they can hear the voice of the Lord since they are not fallen from grace. They are alive in Christ and saved without works or repentance or baptism and as such, they have access to the voice of the Lord.

But, as pointed out above, Little Children are not the only people who are considered "righteous/whole/sinless" because they can hear the voice of the Lord, rather they are only a single demographic of that group. The term "righteous" includes the entire group comprised of anyone who is able to hear the Lord's voice. That includes converts who have repented, been baptized and received the gift of the Holy Ghost. Those people to whom the Lord said,

D&C 18:35-36
35 For it is my voice[/color] which speaketh them unto you; for they are given by my Spirit[/color] unto you, ...
36 Wherefore, you can testify that you have heard my voice, and know my words.

Clearly, they could testify that they had heard the Lord's voice which means they were righteous and Mormon said that these people who could hear the Lord's voice were whole and should not be called to repentance.

But... What about the statement Mormon makes where he says, "they are not capable of committing sin[/u][/b]"? Does this truth apply only to little children or does it also apply to all of the righteous who are not considered sinners because they can hear the Lord's voice?

Although you may not understand how this could possibly be the answer, (because it isn't taught or understood in the LDS Church and contradicts what is taught), the apostle John tells us the following,

John 3:6-10
6 Whosoever abideth in him (Christ) sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

When we repent, we experience the Mighty Change of Heart so that we no longer have the desire to do evil. This is what qualifies us for the Holy Ghost and why the wicked are not qualified to have the Holy Ghost.

D&C 64:16
16 They sought evil in their hearts, and I, the Lord, withheld my Spirit.

It is the desire of our hearts that determines if we qualify for the holy Ghost or not, and that determines if we are righteous or wicked. Notice that it is not our actions, but our desires to do good or evil that determines if we are righteous or wicked.

This is why Mormon said that a wicked person can do the actions of righteousness and it is still counted as sin. It also explains why he says that an evil person is not capable of doing good, because their desires are for evil because they have not experienced the mighty change of heart.

Moroni 7
6 For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing.
7 For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness.
8 For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God.
9 And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.
10 Wherefore, a man being evil cannot do that which is good; neither will he give a good gift.

Just as it is not possible for an evil man to do anything good, it is not possible for a good man to do anything that is evil, because if his desires were to do good, and he did something that was not good, it is counted to him as if he had done good. (Just like little children who do things they should not and it is not counted as a sin to them.)

Moroni 7
11 For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.

So, the question we are asking is whether we are "saved in our sins" or are we "saved from our sins"? The answer is that we become like little children who are saved from their sins, so that our actions are not considered sins at all, even when we do what we should not do. We are not saved in our sins which would mean that our actions are considered sins and that we are saved while we continue to live in sin. When we are born of God it becomes impossible for us to sin, just as it is impossible for little children to sin. Therefore, we are saved from our sins and not in our sins.

All truths taught in the scriptures are backed and supported by other truths. This one is no different. It is supported by the fact that we can have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost which would be an impossible concept if our sins were based on our actions and not our desires. Every time we did something bad, whether we knew it or not, the Holy Ghost would leave and our companionship with it would not be constant. There would be no such thing as a constant companionship with the Holy Ghost.

While the constant companionship with the Holy Ghost is promised and taught in the church today, it is contradicted by the teaching that if you sin after you are born again the Holy Ghost will leave you until you repent and take the sacrament. This idea is based on the principle taught in scriptures like the following.

Alma 7:21
21 And he doth not dwell in unholy temples; neither can filthiness or anything which is unclean be received into the kingdom of God;

It is true that the Holy Ghost does not dwell in unclean temples, but it ignores the fact that when we are born again, we are pronounced clean from past, present and future "sin". Even though we continue to do things that we should not, our desire is to do good, and so our actions are counted as good, even when we make mistakes or do bad things. If this were not the case, then we could not have the Holy Ghost as our constant companion since the Holy Ghost cannot dwell in unholy temples. Just like little children, we are forgiven of sins before we commit them so that we are never made unclean. This is called "being alive in Christ".

Moroni 8
19 Little children cannot repent; wherefore, it is awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God unto them, for they are all alive in him because of his mercy.

Little Children are alive in Christ, but so are "all they that are without the law".

Moroni 8
22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing

Those who are "alive in Christ" are not condemned and cannot repent and so remain clean no matter what they do, (as long as they do not commit the unpardonable sin of denying the Holy ghost). According to Mormon, who meets that criteria?

1. Mormon says little children are alive in Christ, so they meet that criteria.
2. Mormon also says "all they that are without the law" are also alive in Christ, so they have not sinned, are not condemned and cannot repent.

Who are "they that are without the law"?

First off, pointing back to what we saw previously, anyone who can hear the voice of the Lord, which is the spirit, is not under the law, and so they are alive in Christ.

Gal. 5:18
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Romans 8:2
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Of course we gain the spirit when through our faith we are converted to Christ and are born again. So, we would expect that before faith and conversion to Christ we would be wicked/sinners/sick who need to repent, but after our faith is come, we would no longer be wicked/sinners/sick, we would be righteous/non-sinners/whole who are alive in Christ like little children. Well, it just so happens that the wicked/sinners/sick who do not have faith or the Holy Ghost are under the law and the righteous/non-sinners/whole who have faith in Christ are not under the law.

Gal. 3:23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster (the law).

According to Paul, converts who are born again are not under the law and according to Mormon, if they are not under the law, they are "alive in Christ" like little children.

Another reference we can look at is given in D&C 76 where we are told that Telestial people do not receive the gospel or the testimony of Christ and so are "judged according to their works" indicating that their works are taken into account in their judgement, (D&C 76:81-82, 109-111), but Terrestrial people who have a testimony of Christ are "not under the law", therefore according to Mormon they are "alive in Christ" which means forgiven of their sins/not judged according to their works, (D&C 76:74,79). Little children are not judged according to their works either since they are alive in Christ and all their works are counted for good, even if they do things that they shouldn't.

Final thought...and perhaps the whole reason I wrote the above was to get to this point.

We talked about how people who are converted to Christ receive His spirit. Just as his spirit is his voice, the presence of the spirit is the presence of the Lord. The Lord "dwells in us" through his spirit when we receive the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. Because it is constant, we say that the Lord's presence dwells or lives in us. The constant companionship of the Holy Ghost is called "the presence of the Lord". D&C 76:77 points out that the Terrestrial "receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father." The fulness of the Father comes when we receive our calling and election made sure.

The presence of the Lord is experienced by the righteous, (those who hear the Lord's voice), because the Lord dwells in the hearts of the righteous via his spirit.

Alma 34
35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.
36 And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood of the Lamb.

Mosiah 2
37 I say unto you, that the man that doeth this, the same cometh out in open rebellion against God; therefore he listeth to obey the evil spirit, and becometh an enemy to all righteousness; therefore, the Lord has no place in him, for he dwelleth not in unholy temples.

Now, when we are converted and enter in at the gate and receive the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, it does not immediately leave us when we "sin" or do something wrong. We are alive in Christ and his spirit "strives with us" as we fail and make mistakes. This is the state the Brother of Jared when he stopped praying to the Lord. Not only was he not praying, but he was doing other things that didn't please the Lord as we all do after we are born again. The presence of the Lord did not leave the Brother of Jared and stop talking to him. Rather, after three years of not praying, the Lord came to the Brother of Jared and rebuked him. The Lord didn't come to him through a prophet like He does for the wicked who can't hear his voice, but the Brother of Jared could still hear the Lord's voice, so the Lord came to him directly, without a middle man. Because the Brother of Jared could still hear the voice of the Lord, he was considered "righteous". And yet we see the Lord rebuking him for three hours. But, notice what the Lord tells him...

The Lord explains to him that "ye shall remember that my Spirit will not always strive with man; wherefore, if ye will sin until ye are fully ripe ye shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord". (But if ye "sin"/do things you shouldn't and you are not fully ripe, then the spirit will continue to strive with you and you will not be cut off from the presence of the Lord.)

Ether 2
15 And the brother of Jared repented of the evil which he had done, and did call upon the name of the Lord for his brethren who were with him. And the Lord said unto him: I will forgive thee and thy brethren of their sins; but thou shalt not sin any more, for ye shall remember that my Spirit will not always strive with man; wherefore, if ye will sin until ye are fully ripe ye shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord. And these are my thoughts upon the land which I shall give you for your inheritance; for it shall be a land choice above all other lands.

The Brother of Jared still had the presence of the Lord which is why the Lord could talk to him and rebuke him for 3 hours. He was not fully ripe even though he had "sinned" or done things that were not desirable or right. He was still alive in Christ, and had the spirit which was striving with him. This is how we all exist after we are born of God and experience the Mighty Change of Heart and receive the Holy Ghost as our constant companion. We are alive in Christ, like a little child. This is what the scripture means when it says that God "justifies the ungodly".

Romans 4:4-5
4 Now to him that worketh (according to the law) is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not (according to the law), but believeth on him that JUSTIFY the UNGODLY, his faith is counted for righteousness.

We are justified, not because we are godly, but because of our faith is counted for righteousness which makes us alive in Christ.

We continue to do things we shouldn't do, but as we continue to seek the Lord's direction and wisdom, our sins are forgiven just as they are for little children and we have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost and experience the presence of the Lord which dwells in us and continues to dwell in us until we are fully ripe. Since the Lord and his spirit do not dwell in unclean temples, we continue to be clean until the spirit of the Lord ceases to strive with us. When it leaves and is no longer our constant companion, then we are no longer alive in Christ.

As long as the spirit is striving with us, we retain the Lord's presence and are alive in Christ. We remain in this Terrestrial state, (alive in Christ), until we are either ripe for destruction, or we Make our calling and election sure and move on the Celestial state and receive the fulness of the Father.

Those who had the spirit but repeatedly ignored it until they outright rejected it become ripe for destruction. To become that evil, they have to walk back through the gate of repentance and conversion, and have a different mighty change of heart so our desire is turned back toward wickedness again. It's like becoming converted to evil as opposed to being converted to righteousness.

For the spirit to stop striving with you, you have to become so wicked that there is no hope for you to turn back to God. The spirit will strive with you until you are a lost cause and you have given Satan full power over your heart and you are ripe for destruction.

2 Nephi 26:11
11 For the Spirit of the Lord will not always strive with man. And when the Spirit ceaseth to strive with man then cometh speedy destruction, and this grieveth my soul.

Here is an example of a people whom the spirit ceased striving with them and they were ripe for destruction.

Ether 15:19
19 But behold, the Spirit of the Lord had ceased striving with them, and Satan had full power over the hearts of the people; for they were given up unto the hardness of their hearts, and the blindness of their minds that they might be destroyed; wherefore they went again to battle.

At this point, you become a sinner again, but since you had already repented of your sins and tasted of the Holy Ghost and the powers of the world to come, there is no more option for repentance through Christ. Those who reject the atonement and the Holy Ghost after they have received it cannot repent and be forgiven again. It is no longer an option for them because they have turned back to dwell in sin.

Heb. 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

2 Nephi 31
14 But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.

Those who fall after being saved once again dwell in sin and are no longer alive in Christ. They Dwell in their sins, and so cannot be saved because we are saved from our sins, but not in our sins.

Those who desire righteousness/to do good continually are saved from their sins.
Those who desire wickedness/to do evil continually cannot be saved in their sins.

Hope that helps clear up the water.

~Seeker

PS. Reading what I wrote above, I was reminded of Alma 13 which says,

Alma 13
3 And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such.

It tells us that people were ordained based on the foreknowledge of God and given callings which were prepared with and according to "a preparatory redemption". So, God, seeing what they would do in the future called and ordained them to callings they didn't qualify for yet. Because they weren't worthy when they were called and ordained, the callings were prepared with and according to a preparatory redemption. That is exactly what God is doing here and now. We are given the Holy Ghost because we have chosen good and exercised faith, not because we earned it or deserve it already, but because of our potential according to the foreknowledge of God. We are blessed with a preparatory redemption in advance to prepare us for the final redemption.

[nightlight]

Not sure where I first heard this phrase, but it goes something like this: The Savior came to save us from our sins, not to save us in our sins.

I'm sure I've heard it from some general authorities talks somewhere, probably this phrase sounds familiar to most of you too.

But I was thinking about it, and I think that the whole concept of that saying is flat out wrong.

If the Savior can only save us from our sins, then wouldn't that mean the whole atonement is null and void, and no one is saved? Meaning, that only someone who has managed to attain perfection can avail himself of the atonement.

But if we were capable of perfection, we wouldn't need a Savior to save us. The more I ponder it, the more I tend to think that that particular phrase is wrong, and that the Savior does indeed save us in our sins.

What do you guys think?

The phrase is not wrong. He redeems us from our sins, not in our sins. This does not void the atonement.

10 And remember also the words which Amulek spake unto Zeezrom, in the city of Ammonihah; for he said unto him that the Lord surely should come to redeem his people, but that he should not come to redeem them in their sins, but to redeem them from their sins.

The difference between these two words is obviously that "in sin" means we are connected to or surrounded by sin whereas "from sin" means we are disconnected or separated from sin.

We must be separated from sin to be redeemed. But this doesn't mean we don't do things we shouldn't.

This is a major repeated teaching in the scriptures, which has led to the false idea that LDS teach and live which is that we must stop sinning to be saved, (self salvation via our own personal works thereby negating the power of the atonement).

There is a principle that is not taught in the church, or known by most members, that resolves this. I wouldn't have seen or know it unless the Lord taught it to me. But, having been taught by the Lord, I now see and recognize that it is taught very well through out the scriptures.

It is that we can in fact do things the Lord doesn't agree with or support, (which we call sins/transgressions), and still remain in His presence in a saved state. Little children exist in this state, (sinning or transgressing while existing in a saved state). Mormon teaches this very clearly. These little children are saved and doing things that we consider sins. Do we say that they are saved "in their sins"? No, we do not.

They are not saved "in their sins" because they aren't sinning... their actions are not considered sins even though they might do the exact same thing an adult would do which is counted as a sin to an adult. To understand this more specifically, let's look at what Mormon taught about children and sinning.

Moroni 8:8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

Notice that Mormon points out a couple of very important things we tend to over look...
1. Little children are not capable of committing sin. - They might do any number of things that would be sin if an adult did them, but when a child does it, it is not considered sin. This means that a child is not saved in sin, but from sin. Not saved in sin because they cannot sin therefore they are not saved in their sins. They are saved from sin, because they can't sin. They are separated from sin so that as Mormon said, "they are no capable of committing sin.
2. The righteous are not called to repentance - This little gem is also taught in the bible by Jesus himself. We tend to think that there is no such thing as a righteous person and that all people must be called to repentance. This is not true. Since it is difficult for some people to believe that a person can become righteous prior to repenting and being baptized, let's just focus on those who have been converted to Christ, or in other words, "saved from their sins" thereby becoming innocent like little children, even when they do things that would be considered a sin if someone else who was not saved did it...

Notice how he draws a line with his words by saying that we do not call the righteous but sinners to repentance. By using these words, he draws a comparison and and contrast between two groups that are at odds, The righteous vs sinners. We can swap out this words with their opposites to help clarify what he is saying...
Righteous vs Wicked
Non-sinners vs Sinners
Therefore, Righteous are not sinners, and wicked are sinners.

Do not call the righteous but sinners to repentance.
Do not call non-sinners but the wicked to repentance.

Can you see that Mormon is telling us that if we are righteous then we are not sinners? He repeats this message again by calling out that, "the whole need no physician, but they that are sick". The rightous/non-sinners are considered "whole/healthy" while the wicked/sinners are considered "sick".

Now that we have laid down that foundation, we need to define what it means to be righteous. The definition is very clear and only includes a single requirement, which will change everything you thought you knew about the gospel. If you meet this requirement, then you are righteous/not a sinner/whole and if you don't, then you are wicked/a sinner/sick.

Here are the verses where the lord tells us the difference between the righteous and the wicked.

D&C 84:52-53
52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.
53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked...

Mosiah 26:21 & 28
21 And he that will hear my voice shall be my sheep; and him shall ye receive into the church, and him will I also receive.
…
28 Therefore I say unto you, that he that will not hear my voice, the same shall ye not receive into my church, for him I will not receive at the last day.

D&C 38:6
6 And even so will I cause the wicked to be kept, that will not hear my voice but harden their hearts, and wo, wo, wo, is their doom…

Mosiah 16:2
2 And then shall the wicked be cast out, and they shall have cause to howl, and weep, and wail, and gnash their teeth; and this because they would not hearken unto the voice of the Lord; therefore the Lord redeemeth them not.

So, the ability to hear the Lord's voice determines whether a person is righteous or wicked, and also whether they are are or will be redeemed or not.
The righteous hear the Lord's voice and the wicked do not.

What then is the Lord's voice? The Lord repeats to us the answer to this question in the following verses.

D&C 18:35-36
35 For it is my voice which speaketh them unto you; for they are given by my Spirit unto you, ...
36 Wherefore, you can testify that you have heard my voice, and know my words.

D&C 75:1
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, I who speak even by the voice of my Spirit, even Alpha and Omega, your Lord and your God—

D&C 97:1
1 Verily I say unto you my friends, I speak unto you with my voice, even the voice of my Spirit, that I may show unto you my will...

D&C 88:66
66 Behold, that which you hear is as the voice of one crying in the wilderness—in the wilderness, because you cannot see him—my voice, because my voice is Spirit; my Spirit is truth; truth abideth and hath no end; and if it be in you it shall abound.

D&C 68:3-4
3 And this is the ensample unto them, that they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost.
4 And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.

So, the spirit is the voice of the Lord and the righteous can hear that voice while the wicked cannot. The righteous who hear that voice will be redeemed but the wicked will not be redeemed. (This is the separating line between the Telestial and Terrestrial kingdoms. Terrestrial people are righteous whereas Telestial people are wicked, just as little children are righteous and sinners are wicked.)

Now that we have defined "the righteous", let's go back and reread what Mormon was saying...

Moroni 8:8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous/non-sinners/those who hear the Lord's voice but sinners/wicked/those who cannot hear the Lord's voice to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

Of course little children are righteous and as such they can hear the voice of the Lord since they are not fallen from grace. They are alive in Christ and saved without works or repentance or baptism and as such, they have access to the voice of the Lord.

But, as pointed out above, Little Children are not the only people who are considered "righteous/whole/sinless" because they can hear the voice of the Lord, rather they are only a single demographic of that group. The term "righteous" includes the entire group comprised of anyone who is able to hear the Lord's voice. That includes converts who have repented, been baptized and received the gift of the Holy Ghost. Those people to whom the Lord said,

D&C 18:35-36
35 For it is my voice[/color] which speaketh them unto you; for they are given by my Spirit[/color] unto you, ...
36 Wherefore, you can testify that you have heard my voice, and know my words.

Clearly, they could testify that they had heard the Lord's voice which means they were righteous and Mormon said that these people who could hear the Lord's voice were whole and should not be called to repentance.

But... What about the statement Mormon makes where he says, "they are not capable of committing sin[/u][/b]"? Does this truth apply only to little children or does it also apply to all of the righteous who are not considered sinners because they can hear the Lord's voice?

Although you may not understand how this could possibly be the answer, (because it isn't taught or understood in the LDS Church and contradicts what is taught), the apostle John tells us the following,

John 3:6-10
6 Whosoever abideth in him (Christ) sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

When we repent, we experience the Mighty Change of Heart so that we no longer have the desire to do evil. This is what qualifies us for the Holy Ghost and why the wicked are not qualified to have the Holy Ghost.

D&C 64:16
16 They sought evil in their hearts, and I, the Lord, withheld my Spirit.

It is the desire of our hearts that determines if we qualify for the holy Ghost or not, and that determines if we are righteous or wicked. Notice that it is not our actions, but our desires to do good or evil that determines if we are righteous or wicked.

This is why Mormon said that a wicked person can do the actions of righteousness and it is still counted as sin. It also explains why he says that an evil person is not capable of doing good, because their desires are for evil because they have not experienced the mighty change of heart.

Moroni 7
6 For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing.
7 For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness.
8 For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God.
9 And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.
10 Wherefore, a man being evil cannot do that which is good; neither will he give a good gift.

Just as it is not possible for an evil man to do anything good, it is not possible for a good man to do anything that is evil, because if his desires were to do good, and he did something that was not good, it is counted to him as if he had done good. (Just like little children who do things they should not and it is not counted as a sin to them.)

Moroni 7
11 For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.

So, the question we are asking is whether we are "saved in our sins" or are we "saved from our sins"? The answer is that we become like little children who are saved from their sins, so that our actions are not considered sins at all, even when we do what we should not do. We are not saved in our sins which would mean that our actions are considered sins and that we are saved while we continue to live in sin. When we are born of God it becomes impossible for us to sin, just as it is impossible for little children to sin. Therefore, we are saved from our sins and not in our sins.

All truths taught in the scriptures are backed and supported by other truths. This one is no different. It is supported by the fact that we can have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost which would be an impossible concept if our sins were based on our actions and not our desires. Every time we did something bad, whether we knew it or not, the Holy Ghost would leave and our companionship with it would not be constant. There would be no such thing as a constant companionship with the Holy Ghost.

While the constant companionship with the Holy Ghost is promised and taught in the church today, it is contradicted by the teaching that if you sin after you are born again the Holy Ghost will leave you until you repent and take the sacrament. This idea is based on the principle taught in scriptures like the following.

Alma 7:21
21 And he doth not dwell in unholy temples; neither can filthiness or anything which is unclean be received into the kingdom of God;

It is true that the Holy Ghost does not dwell in unclean temples, but it ignores the fact that when we are born again, we are pronounced clean from past, present and future "sin". Even though we continue to do things that we should not, our desire is to do good, and so our actions are counted as good, even when we make mistakes or do bad things. If this were not the case, then we could not have the Holy Ghost as our constant companion since the Holy Ghost cannot dwell in unholy temples. Just like little children, we are forgiven of sins before we commit them so that we are never made unclean. This is called "being alive in Christ".

Moroni 8
19 Little children cannot repent; wherefore, it is awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God unto them, for they are all alive in him because of his mercy.

Little Children are alive in Christ, but so are "all they that are without the law".

Moroni 8
22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing

Those who are "alive in Christ" are not condemned and cannot repent and so remain clean no matter what they do, (as long as they do not commit the unpardonable sin of denying the Holy ghost). According to Mormon, who meets that criteria?

1. Mormon says little children are alive in Christ, so they meet that criteria.
2. Mormon also says "all they that are without the law" are also alive in Christ, so they have not sinned, are not condemned and cannot repent.

Who are "they that are without the law"?

First off, pointing back to what we saw previously, anyone who can hear the voice of the Lord, which is the spirit, is not under the law, and so they are alive in Christ.

Gal. 5:18
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Romans 8:2
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Of course we gain the spirit when through our faith we are converted to Christ and are born again. So, we would expect that before faith and conversion to Christ we would be wicked/sinners/sick who need to repent, but after our faith is come, we would no longer be wicked/sinners/sick, we would be righteous/non-sinners/whole who are alive in Christ like little children. Well, it just so happens that the wicked/sinners/sick who do not have faith or the Holy Ghost are under the law and the righteous/non-sinners/whole who have faith in Christ are not under the law.

Gal. 3:23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster (the law).

According to Paul, converts who are born again are not under the law and according to Mormon, if they are not under the law, they are "alive in Christ" like little children.

Another reference we can look at is given in D&C 76 where we are told that Telestial people do not receive the gospel or the testimony of Christ and so are "judged according to their works" indicating that their works are taken into account in their judgement, (D&C 76:81-82, 109-111), but Terrestrial people who have a testimony of Christ are "not under the law", therefore according to Mormon they are "alive in Christ" which means forgiven of their sins/not judged according to their works, (D&C 76:74,79). Little children are not judged according to their works either since they are alive in Christ and all their works are counted for good, even if they do things that they shouldn't.

Final thought...and perhaps the whole reason I wrote the above was to get to this point.

We talked about how people who are converted to Christ receive His spirit. Just as his spirit is his voice, the presence of the spirit is the presence of the Lord. The Lord "dwells in us" through his spirit when we receive the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. Because it is constant, we say that the Lord's presence dwells or lives in us. The constant companionship of the Holy Ghost is called "the presence of the Lord". D&C 76:77 points out that the Terrestrial "receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father." The fulness of the Father comes when we receive our calling and election made sure.

The presence of the Lord is experienced by the righteous, (those who hear the Lord's voice), because the Lord dwells in the hearts of the righteous via his spirit.

Alma 34
35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.
36 And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood of the Lamb.

Mosiah 2
37 I say unto you, that the man that doeth this, the same cometh out in open rebellion against God; therefore he listeth to obey the evil spirit, and becometh an enemy to all righteousness; therefore, the Lord has no place in him, for he dwelleth not in unholy temples.

Now, when we are converted and enter in at the gate and receive the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, it does not immediately leave us when we "sin" or do something wrong. We are alive in Christ and his spirit "strives with us" as we fail and make mistakes. This is the state the Brother of Jared when he stopped praying to the Lord. Not only was he not praying, but he was doing other things that didn't please the Lord as we all do after we are born again. The presence of the Lord did not leave the Brother of Jared and stop talking to him. Rather, after three years of not praying, the Lord came to the Brother of Jared and rebuked him. The Lord didn't come to him through a prophet like He does for the wicked who can't hear his voice, but the Brother of Jared could still hear the Lord's voice, so the Lord came to him directly, without a middle man. Because the Brother of Jared could still hear the voice of the Lord, he was considered "righteous". And yet we see the Lord rebuking him for three hours. But, notice what the Lord tells him...

The Lord explains to him that "ye shall remember that my Spirit will not always strive with man; wherefore, if ye will sin until ye are fully ripe ye shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord". (But if ye "sin"/do things you shouldn't and you are not fully ripe, then the spirit will continue to strive with you and you will not be cut off from the presence of the Lord.)

Ether 2
15 And the brother of Jared repented of the evil which he had done, and did call upon the name of the Lord for his brethren who were with him. And the Lord said unto him: I will forgive thee and thy brethren of their sins; but thou shalt not sin any more, for ye shall remember that my Spirit will not always strive with man; wherefore, if ye will sin until ye are fully ripe ye shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord. And these are my thoughts upon the land which I shall give you for your inheritance; for it shall be a land choice above all other lands.

The Brother of Jared still had the presence of the Lord which is why the Lord could talk to him and rebuke him for 3 hours. He was not fully ripe even though he had "sinned" or done things that were not desirable or right. He was still alive in Christ, and had the spirit which was striving with him. This is how we all exist after we are born of God and experience the Mighty Change of Heart and receive the Holy Ghost as our constant companion. We are alive in Christ, like a little child. This is what the scripture means when it says that God "justifies the ungodly".

Romans 4:4-5
4 Now to him that worketh (according to the law) is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not (according to the law), but believeth on him that JUSTIFY the UNGODLY, his faith is counted for righteousness.

We are justified, not because we are godly, but because of our faith is counted for righteousness which makes us alive in Christ.

We continue to do things we shouldn't do, but as we continue to seek the Lord's direction and wisdom, our sins are forgiven just as they are for little children and we have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost and experience the presence of the Lord which dwells in us and continues to dwell in us until we are fully ripe. Since the Lord and his spirit do not dwell in unclean temples, we continue to be clean until the spirit of the Lord ceases to strive with us. When it leaves and is no longer our constant companion, then we are no longer alive in Christ.

As long as the spirit is striving with us, we retain the Lord's presence and are alive in Christ. We remain in this Terrestrial state, (alive in Christ), until we are either ripe for destruction, or we Make our calling and election sure and move on the Celestial state and receive the fulness of the Father.

Those who had the spirit but repeatedly ignored it until they outright rejected it become ripe for destruction. To become that evil, they have to walk back through the gate of repentance and conversion, and have a different mighty change of heart so our desire is turned back toward wickedness again. It's like becoming converted to evil as opposed to being converted to righteousness.

For the spirit to stop striving with you, you have to become so wicked that there is no hope for you to turn back to God. The spirit will strive with you until you are a lost cause and you have given Satan full power over your heart and you are ripe for destruction.

2 Nephi 26:11
11 For the Spirit of the Lord will not always strive with man. And when the Spirit ceaseth to strive with man then cometh speedy destruction, and this grieveth my soul.

Here is an example of a people whom the spirit ceased striving with them and they were ripe for destruction.

Ether 15:19
19 But behold, the Spirit of the Lord had ceased striving with them, and Satan had full power over the hearts of the people; for they were given up unto the hardness of their hearts, and the blindness of their minds that they might be destroyed; wherefore they went again to battle.

At this point, you become a sinner again, but since you had already repented of your sins and tasted of the Holy Ghost and the powers of the world to come, there is no more option for repentance through Christ. Those who reject the atonement and the Holy Ghost after they have received it cannot repent and be forgiven again. It is no longer an option for them because they have turned back to dwell in sin.

Heb. 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

2 Nephi 31
14 But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.

Those who fall after being saved once again dwell in sin and are no longer alive in Christ. They Dwell in their sins, and so cannot be saved because we are saved from our sins, but not in our sins.

Those who desire righteousness/to do good continually are saved from their sins.
Those who desire wickedness/to do evil continually cannot be saved in their sins.

Hope that helps clear up the water.

~Seeker

PS. Reading what I wrote above, I was reminded of Alma 13 which says,

Alma 13
3 And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such.

It tells us that people were ordained based on the foreknowledge of God and given callings which were prepared with and according to "a preparatory redemption". So, God, seeing what they would do in the future called and ordained them to callings they didn't qualify for yet. Because they weren't worthy when they were called and ordained, the callings were prepared with and according to a preparatory redemption. That is exactly what God is doing here and now. We are given the Holy Ghost because we have chosen good and exercised faith, not because we earned it or deserve it already, but because of our potential according to the foreknowledge of God. We are blessed with a preparatory redemption in advance to prepare us for the final redemption.

Have you talked with Jesus, face to face?

[An Eye Single]

A blogpost I wrote a while back on the topic:

https://thewordofthelorduntome.blogspo ... s.html?m=0

[ransomme]

I agree that it is worded oddly. I think the real intent is simply to say we have to be in the attitude of being reconciled to God.

[TheChristian]

In the parable of the prodigal son, I notice that the father went running with joy to reclaim the wayward son. I don't remember the part where he stopped the prodigal son at the driveway and said 'that's great that you've finally come to your senses. Now you need to go and put your life back in order, make back all the money you squandered and pay it back, and make sure you're totally perfect, and once that's done I'll call you my son again and let you step foot back onto the property. Until then, scram!'

And yes, notice that His father looked out daily for his sons return and the utter Joy he had when he seen his wayward son in the distance.
No rebukes, church courts, no casting outs...........
Simply the pure unconditional love that even mortal fathers that love their children show when their children go astray.
How much more mercy, joy and grace will our perfect Father show whom died apon the cruel cross for ALL His children, not just the few that loved Him, but also for the indifferent and those children that hated Him...........

Make but one step towards Jesus,
And He will move heaven and earth in his manifold steps towards you!

Without that unconditional love and grace, there would be no hope for anybody that has ever walked this earth.........

Thank Jesus for Calvary!

[Alexander]

It simply means that Christ cannot save his people without removing their sin. Christ's transformative power generates us into new beings; it doesn't save while we remain in our carnal state.

See verse 37:

"And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins."

We are made clean; we do not remain unclean and inherit the kingdom of heaven.

Proceeding to 40 and 41:

"And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else.
Therefore the wicked remain as though there had been no redemption made, except it be the loosing of the bands of death; for behold, the day cometh that all shall rise from the dead and stand before God, and be judged according to their works."

While the righteous are redeemed and inherit eternal life, the wicked remain without salvation.



Zeezrom: Aren't we saved in our sins? (can we be saved and remain in our telestial state?)

Amulek: No, we are saved FROM our sins. (Christ removes us from our sinful state and generates us into a new life and being)

[TheDuke]

Alexander: there is a new concept/phrase, where did you get it from? "Christ removes us from our sinful state" and "generates us into a new life and being" This is something I cannot follow or comprehend. Christ makes us a "new life"........... the general concept of a "new creature" is figurative, a new life and new being sounds like you are saying a physically different person? And what is a sinful state? I live in Washington, I'd say that is a sinful state? Just trying to understand the new lexicon.

[An Eye Single]

Nephi sure knew what he was doing when he wrote chapters 31 and 32 in 2 Nephi.

As soon as we encounter Christ—meaning the idea of Christ, or the idea that a man can be perfectly obedient to God—we make the decision to “believe on his name”—meaning we believe it is possible to make everything about us exactly like everything about him. The first step in making this possibility an actuality is conforming ourselves to his image in everything that we presently understand about him. We forsake everything we know to be sin, because he is sinless. We become submissive, because he is submissive. We have no hypocrisy or deceit in our submission, because there is no hypocrisy or deceit in his. We become determined to be obedient, because he is determined to be obedient.

These things qualify us for a baptism of fire, wherein we are cleansed and forgiven of our previous sins, becoming new, “sinless” creatures, and the recognition of our new state testifies to us of God’s love and mercy towards those who conform to his image. Our improved understanding of God’s love and mercy changes our dispositions. In joy and gratitude, we no longer desire to do evil, but to do good continually.

Our sinless state and our desire to do good continually further qualify us for the gift of the Holy Ghost, through which God teaches us additional information about himself. We must immediately conform to this new information in order to remain in our sinless state and to continue to enjoy the companionship of the Holy Ghost. Receiving and immediately conforming to all new information is “pressing forward with a steadfastness in Christ.” It is how you remain sinless, how you are sanctified, how you are made “perfect in Christ,” and how you are saved.

Christ is the prototype of a saved being, and you cannot be anything than less than what he is if you would be saved.

A hard truth to bear, but truth, nonetheless.

[Alexander]

Alexander: there is a new concept/phrase, where did you get it from? "Christ removes us from our sinful state" and "generates us into a new life and being" This is something I cannot follow or comprehend. Christ makes us a "new life"........... the general concept of a "new creature" is figurative, a new life and new being sounds like you are saying a physically different person? And what is a sinful state? I live in Washington, I'd say that is a sinful state? Just trying to understand the new lexicon.

C’mon Duke you old geezer. It’s elementary.

Adam’s condescension brought about spiritual death, or separation from the presence of God. Man resides in a carnal sinful state of existence in this telestial sphere and requires a redemption, an act to bring man back, to restore him, yet change him from his lesser spirit into a higher state, more purified or refined spirit, and bring him back into God’s presence. Man cannot enter into the presence of God being tainted by sin (our spiritual capacity must be expanded, and cleansed). The baptism of fire and Holy Ghost is the born again event which resurrects our dead spirits into eternal life. The justification permits the blessing and the sanctification roots out our evil disposition. You are a new creature, a born again son or daughter of Christ.



This is extensively elucidated in the Book of Mormon.

[TheDuke]

Alexander: ok so you're just using different terms to explain the old ones. I get that. I was just wondering if you had something "new" in mind. thanks for the clarification..

[SJR3t2]

2 Nephi 9:45 O, my beloved brethren, turn away from your sins; shake off the chains of him that would bind you fast; come unto that God who is the rock of your salvation.

Mosiah 15:12 For these are they whose sins he has borne; these are they for whom he has died, to redeem them from their transgressions. And now, are they not his seed?

Alma 5:21 I say unto you, ye will know at that day that ye cannot be saved; for there can no man be saved except his garments are washed white; yea, his garments must be purified until they are cleansed from all stain, through the blood of him of whom it has been spoken by our fathers, who should come to redeem his people from their sins.

Alma 5:27 Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently humble? That your garments have been cleansed and made white through the blood of Christ, who will come to redeem his people from their sins?

Alma 6:8 And Alma went and began to declare the word of God unto the church which was established in the valley of Gideon, according to the revelation of the truth of the word which had been spoken by his fathers, and according to the spirit of prophecy which was in him, according to the testimony of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who should come to redeem his people from their sins, and the holy order by which he was called. And thus it is written. Amen.

Alma 7:14 Now I say unto you that ye must repent, and be born again; for the Spirit saith if ye are not born again ye cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore come and be baptized unto repentance, that ye may be washed from your sins, that ye may have faith on the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sins of the world, who is mighty to save and to cleanse from all unrighteousness.

Alma 11:34,36-37
34 And Zeezrom said again: Shall he save his people in their sins? And Amulek answered and said unto him: I say unto you he shall not, for it is impossible for him to deny his word.
36 Now Amulek saith again unto him: Behold thou hast lied, for thou sayest that I spake as though I had authority to command God because I said he shall not save his people in their sins.
37 And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.

Alma 21:7 Now Aaron said unto him: Believest thou that the Son of God shall come to redeem mankind from their sins?

Helaman 5:10 And remember also the words which Amulek spake unto Zeezrom, in the city of Ammonihah; for he said unto him that the Lord surely should come to redeem his people, but that he should not come to redeem them in their sins, but to redeem them from their sins.

Helaman 5:11 And he hath power given unto him from the Father to redeem them from their sins because of repentance; therefore he hath sent his angels to declare the tidings of the conditions of repentance, which bringeth unto the power of the Redeemer, unto the salvation of their souls.

3 Nephi 30:2 Turn, all ye Gentiles, from your wicked ways; and repent of your evil doings, of your lyings and deceivings, and of your whoredoms, and of your secret abominations, and your idolatries, and of your murders, and your priestcrafts, and your envyings, and your strifes, and from all your wickedness and abominations, and come unto me, and be baptized in my name, that ye may receive a remission of your sins, and be filled with the Holy Ghost, that ye may be numbered with my people who are of the house of Israel.

I already had some of these but found a few more with the following program.
https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/softw ... pelsearch/

[Seeker144k]

Have you talked with Jesus, face to face?

Yes.

You can read my first experience here: Philip's Story
That's the first chapter of the Book my wife and I wrote called The Mental Science of Success. The rest of the Book can be found here: The Mental Science of Success
The book is about how the Lord healed me and the results of my 15 year search to understand what what He did, why it worked and how I could help heal others with my same issue the way I was helped.

~Seeker (aka Philip)

[nightlight]

Have you talked with Jesus, face to face?

Yes.

You can read my first experience here: Philip's Story
That's the first chapter of the Book my wife and I wrote called The Mental Science of Success. The rest of the Book can be found here: The Mental Science of Success
The book is about how the Lord healed me and the results of my 15 year search to understand what what He did, why it worked and how I could help heal others with my same issue the way I was helped.

~Seeker (aka Philip)

Good stuff.

We're similar. But I was/am a lot worse around the edges than you. And I still suffer from my storms, even though Jesus also came to me.

What is the difference between the Second Comforter and having your C&E made sure? What do you think comes first? Are they the same?

[ransomme]

Alexander: there is a new concept/phrase, where did you get it from? "Christ removes us from our sinful state" and "generates us into a new life and being" This is something I cannot follow or comprehend. Christ makes us a "new life"........... the general concept of a "new creature" is figurative, a new life and new being sounds like you are saying a physically different person? And what is a sinful state? I live in Washington, I'd say that is a sinful state? Just trying to understand the new lexicon.

you mean like...

D&C 84 "33 For whoso is faithful unto the obtaining these two priesthoods of which I have spoken, and the magnifying their calling, are sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies."

[FrankOne]

Have you talked with Jesus, face to face?

Yes.

You can read my first experience here: Philip's Story
That's the first chapter of the Book my wife and I wrote called The Mental Science of Success. The rest of the Book can be found here: The Mental Science of Success
The book is about how the Lord healed me and the results of my 15 year search to understand what what He did, why it worked and how I could help heal others with my same issue the way I was helped.

~Seeker (aka Philip)

thank you for sharing your story. I really enjoyed it.
edit: and thanks for the link on the 'how to'. I skimmed it and copied the sections that would be of value to me. Looks great. I needed another boost.

[Seeker144k]

Have you talked with Jesus, face to face?

Yes.

You can read my first experience here: Philip's Story
That's the first chapter of the Book my wife and I wrote called The Mental Science of Success. The rest of the Book can be found here: The Mental Science of Success
The book is about how the Lord healed me and the results of my 15 year search to understand what what He did, why it worked and how I could help heal others with my same issue the way I was helped.

~Seeker (aka Philip)

Good stuff.

We're similar. But I was/am a lot worse around the edges than you. And I still suffer from my storms, even though Jesus also came to me.

What is the difference between the Second Comforter and having your C&E made sure? What do you think comes first? Are they the same?

Oh, wonderful! I'd love to hear more about your journey!

My wife and I received the sealing of the Holy Spirit of Promise which sealed us up to eternal life with God in the Celestial Kingdom when we were only 21-22 years old. The promise was given a couple times before we really grasped what it meant. Then we struggled with the implications for about a week when were able to confirm and accept the promise at which time it was confirmed again and we fully accepted it. A short time later, (about a week for my wife and a few weeks for me), we each individually received the Second Comforter. The promise and the Second Comforter were separate events for us. My experience tells me that Calling and Election comes first followed by the Second Comforter. Calling and Election made sure via the seal of the Holy Spirit of Promise is like the baptismal ordinance into the Church of the Firstborn. The Second Comforter is the confirming ordinance of the Church of the Firstborn.

Both are independent and individually valid ordinances. I could see a person receiving both at the same time though.

~Seeker

[Seeker144k]

Alexander: there is a new concept/phrase, where did you get it from? "Christ removes us from our sinful state" and "generates us into a new life and being" This is something I cannot follow or comprehend. Christ makes us a "new life"........... the general concept of a "new creature" is figurative, a new life and new being sounds like you are saying a physically different person? And what is a sinful state? I live in Washington, I'd say that is a sinful state? Just trying to understand the new lexicon.

Joseph Smith taught,

The Two Comforters
There are two Comforters spoken of. One is the Holy Ghost, the same as given on the day of Pentecost, and that all Saints receive after faith, repentance, and baptism. This first Comforter or Holy Ghost has no other effect than pure intelligence. It is more powerful in expanding the mind, enlightening the understanding, and storing the intellect with present knowledge, of a man who is of the literal seed of Abraham, than one that is a Gentile, though it may not have half as much visible effect upon the body; for as the Holy Ghost falls upon one of the literal seed of Abraham, it is calm and serene; and his whole soul and body are only exercised by the pure spirit of intelligence; while the effect of the Holy Ghost upon a Gentile, is to purge out the old blood, and make him actually of the seed of Abraham. That man that has none of the blood of Abraham (naturally) must have a new creation by the Holy Ghost. In such a case, there may be more of a powerful effect upon the body, and visible to the eye, than upon an Israelite, while the Israelite at first might be far before the Gentile in pure intelligence.

Not sure that it is true, but worth considering.

~Seeker

[Subcomandante]

Not sure where I first heard this phrase, but it goes something like this: The Savior came to save us from our sins, not to save us in our sins.

I'm sure I've heard it from some general authorities talks somewhere, probably this phrase sounds familiar to most of you too.

But I was thinking about it, and I think that the whole concept of that saying is flat out wrong.

If the Savior can only save us from our sins, then wouldn't that mean the whole atonement is null and void, and no one is saved? Meaning, that only someone who has managed to attain perfection can avail himself of the atonement.

But if we were capable of perfection, we wouldn't need a Savior to save us. The more I ponder it, the more I tend to think that that particular phrase is wrong, and that the Savior does indeed save us in our sins.

What do you guys think?

It is a Book of Mormon teaching, a refutation of Nehorism.