Be careful about telling the truth...

[Ado]

...or you might be a dissenter.

"Any who are tempted to rake through the annals of history, to use truth unrighteously, or to dig up facts with the intent to defame or destroy, should hearken to this warning of scripture: ‘The wrath of God is…against all…who hold the truth in unrighteousness.’ To anyone who, because of truth, may be tempted to become a dissenter against the Lord and his anointed, weigh carefully your action…"

(Elder Russell M. Nelson, “Truth—and More,” Ensign, Jan. 1986, p. 69.)

What is infuriating to me about this is that he is quoting from Romans 1:18 to make his point, twisting what it actually means.
“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness”
The JST translation says it differently too:
“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who love not the truth but remain in unrighteousness.”
So this PSR is using the incorrect translation of a Bible verse to scare people away from using truth to dissent against him. Even if we go with the original translation and omit JST, it still doesn’t mean what he says it means. It is referencing those who choose sin rather than truth; those who refuse to know the truth because they’d rather live unrighteously. In other words, their unrighteousness is their truth.
Threatening the tithe payers by misquoting scripture is as wrong as it gets in my opinion.

Would this be an example of him wresting scripture?

Wresting, twisting - yes I think so. I wonder if it happens intentionally or if they really are misunderstanding it themselves. Which is worse from a prophet? 2 Peter 3:16

[Gadianton Slayer]

...or you might be a dissenter.

"Any who are tempted to rake through the annals of history, to use truth unrighteously, or to dig up facts with the intent to defame or destroy, should hearken to this warning of scripture: ‘The wrath of God is…against all…who hold the truth in unrighteousness.’ To anyone who, because of truth, may be tempted to become a dissenter against the Lord and his anointed, weigh carefully your action…"

(Elder Russell M. Nelson, “Truth—and More,” Ensign, Jan. 1986, p. 69.)

What is infuriating to me about this is that he is quoting from Romans 1:18 to make his point, twisting what it actually means.
“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness”
The JST translation says it differently too:
“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who love not the truth but remain in unrighteousness.”
So this PSR is using the incorrect translation of a Bible verse to scare people away from using truth to dissent against him. Even if we go with the original translation and omit JST, it still doesn’t mean what he says it means. It is referencing those who choose sin rather than truth; those who refuse to know the truth because they’d rather live unrighteously. In other words, their unrighteousness is their truth.
Threatening the tithe payers by misquoting scripture is as wrong as it gets in my opinion.

Bingo. Thanks for pointing out JST, I usually forget to compare that.

[Ado]

...or you might be a dissenter.

"Any who are tempted to rake through the annals of history, to use truth unrighteously, or to dig up facts with the intent to defame or destroy, should hearken to this warning of scripture: ‘The wrath of God is…against all…who hold the truth in unrighteousness.’ To anyone who, because of truth, may be tempted to become a dissenter against the Lord and his anointed, weigh carefully your action…"

(Elder Russell M. Nelson, “Truth—and More,” Ensign, Jan. 1986, p. 69.)

What is infuriating to me about this is that he is quoting from Romans 1:18 to make his point, twisting what it actually means.
“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness”
The JST translation says it differently too:
“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who love not the truth but remain in unrighteousness.”
So this PSR is using the incorrect translation of a Bible verse to scare people away from using truth to dissent against him. Even if we go with the original translation and omit JST, it still doesn’t mean what he says it means. It is referencing those who choose sin rather than truth; those who refuse to know the truth because they’d rather live unrighteously. In other words, their unrighteousness is their truth.
Threatening the tithe payers by misquoting scripture is as wrong as it gets in my opinion.

Bingo. Thanks for pointing out JST, I usually forget to compare that.

So does our living prophet, apparently. Haha

[Gadianton Slayer]

...or you might be a dissenter.

"Any who are tempted to rake through the annals of history, to use truth unrighteously, or to dig up facts with the intent to defame or destroy, should hearken to this warning of scripture: ‘The wrath of God is…against all…who hold the truth in unrighteousness.’ To anyone who, because of truth, may be tempted to become a dissenter against the Lord and his anointed, weigh carefully your action…"

(Elder Russell M. Nelson, “Truth—and More,” Ensign, Jan. 1986, p. 69.)

Alternate Universe: Jerusalem 29 AD

Centurion Severus, Legio X Fretensis: Governor, there is this report of a man who is rousing up the people against the Romans, calling Himself a King. What shall we do, Governor?

Governor Pilatus: Has he condemned Caesar?

Severus: Yes, he tells the people not to pay taxes to such an oppressive individual such as Imperator Caesar Augustus.

Governor Pilatus: Bring him before me.

Within a week of the start of his ministry, even before he could call Apostles, Yeshua ben Maryam has, like many before him, been killed.

But not by a bunch of overzealous priests of the religion of Judaea, but by the Romans, who sought to make an example of those who would rebel against her might. All because Yeshua ben Maryam opened his mouth too much against Rome and dared to have his acts publicized.

Christianity does not have the chance to rise under this setup. Of course, this is an alternate history, but considering what WOULD have happened had Jesus opened His mouth like how the people on this board want the LDS Church to open up theirs, should give the observer pause before they demand more of their leaders.

We’re not even batting in the same ballpark. This isn’t about the church speaking out against evil, it’s about him essentially telling the members to shut up if they feel that something in history is incorrect. To not question “the Lord’s anointed”…

Fun fact: the title, “Lord’s anointed” doesn’t appear a single time in the Bible or New Testament. It appears one time in the D&C, in reference to ancient prophets.

[Gadianton Slayer]

...or you might be a dissenter.

"Any who are tempted to rake through the annals of history, to use truth unrighteously, or to dig up facts with the intent to defame or destroy, should hearken to this warning of scripture: ‘The wrath of God is…against all…who hold the truth in unrighteousness.’ To anyone who, because of truth, may be tempted to become a dissenter against the Lord and his anointed, weigh carefully your action…"

(Elder Russell M. Nelson, “Truth—and More,” Ensign, Jan. 1986, p. 69.)

What is infuriating to me about this is that he is quoting from Romans 1:18 to make his point, twisting what it actually means.
“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness”
The JST translation says it differently too:
“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who love not the truth but remain in unrighteousness.”
So this PSR is using the incorrect translation of a Bible verse to scare people away from using truth to dissent against him. Even if we go with the original translation and omit JST, it still doesn’t mean what he says it means. It is referencing those who choose sin rather than truth; those who refuse to know the truth because they’d rather live unrighteously. In other words, their unrighteousness is their truth.
Threatening the tithe payers by misquoting scripture is as wrong as it gets in my opinion.

Bingo. Thanks for pointing out JST, I usually forget to compare that.

So does our living prophet, apparently. Haha

Lol. I think he is very aware, which is much more damning.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Gad,

Were you even born when they said these things?

Do I need to have been? Or am I just bringing up truth that would make me a dissenter? Does one have to have been born when a statement was made in order to talk about it?

Just wondering… (you didn’t answer the question)

No. But I do not see how this question is relevant.

[Juliet]

The reason we have such an issue with criticism, why it triggers leaders, coworkers, husband's and wives, and children alike, is because we associate criticism with a toxic sense of self worthlessness.

I read a book on this concept, and it was very powerful.... To realize you can have faults but still be valuable.

One day while approaching the end of this book, the Holy Spirit whispered "now you have an understanding of your worth, we can finally get to working on your faults".

I felt complete peace about it. But a very real understanding that the Holy Spirit was going to be taking me on a journey of criticism and honesty.

When I think of it, most addiction recovery programs have this concept built in. You are surrounded by love and support, but it is a cruel process of becoming honest with self about one's problems.

If humanity can just overcome this one thing, this sense of being inhuman and not worthy of love because genuine criticisms can be made of you... We would be able to improve so much faster, clean up our messes so much faster.

Leaders who embrace the honesty have a lot of potential to influence others. The problem we have with that though, is even if people get to the point of being brutally honest with self about their faults... People can learn to not crucify themselves for their faults. But I still don't think people have gotten to the point where they don't need to crucify others for their faults.

That right there is a huge barrior to overcoming sin in our culture and on a societal scale.

[CuriousThinker]

The reason we have such an issue with criticism, why it triggers leaders, coworkers, husband's and wives, and children alike, is because we associate criticism with a toxic sense of self worthlessness.

I read a book on this concept, and it was very powerful.... To realize you can have faults but still be valuable.

One day while approaching the end of this book, the Holy Spirit whispered "now you have an understanding of your worth, we can finally get to working on your faults".

I felt complete peace about it. But a very real understanding that the Holy Spirit was going to be taking me on a journey of criticism and honesty.

When I think of it, most addiction recovery programs have this concept built in. You are surrounded by love and support, but it is a cruel process of becoming honest with self about one's problems.

If humanity can just overcome this one thing, this sense of being inhuman and not worthy of love because genuine criticisms can be made of you... We would be able to improve so much faster, clean up our messes so much faster.

Leaders who embrace the honesty have a lot of potential to influence others. The problem we have with that though, is even if people get to the point of being brutally honest with self about their faults... People can learn to not crucify themselves for their faults. But I still don't think people have gotten to the point where they don't need to crucify others for their faults.

That right there is a huge barrior to overcoming sin in our culture and on a societal scale.

What book was it?

[BroJones]

Well, that's problematic. Because God is a God of TRUTH.

Therefore, the truth cannot pit you against Almighty God.

Truth is truth, and error is error.

The covid vax saves lives, the covid vax kills people, are both true so what side would God be on?

Effective treatments (such as Vitamin D3) also save lives.
I think we should speak the truth as we know it freely, with forgiveness and patience in our hearts just as we would be forgiven by the Lord.

[TheChristian]

There are times when a Christian must stand by the Word of God ...............And suffer greatly........
And he will find it will be his very own brethren that shall cause him much affliction and sorrow....
Thus it was in the beginning,
And so shall it be to the very end..........

[InfoWarrior82]

giphy.gif

This is literally what they're saying.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I think we should speak the truth as we know it freely, with forgiveness and patience in our hearts just as we would be forgiven by the Lord.

This concept of "forgive" is often followed by "forget." That doesn't mean we allow repeat abuse by the offender. The LDS church leadership committed some grievous offenses along the way by leading their flock astray. They need to own up to the crap they were spewing about.

[mtmom]

...or you might be a dissenter.

"Any who are tempted to rake through the annals of history, to use truth unrighteously, or to dig up facts with the intent to defame or destroy, should hearken to this warning of scripture: ‘The wrath of God is…against all…who hold the truth in unrighteousness.’ To anyone who, because of truth, may be tempted to become a dissenter against the Lord and his anointed, weigh carefully your action…"

(Elder Russell M. Nelson, “Truth—and More,” Ensign, Jan. 1986, p. 69.)

So the leaders consider themselves infallible? Am I missing something here?

[Thinker]

[“YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH!”]

This is literally what they're saying.

It’s often true and they can’t handle the truth either. Their foundations are weak - based on many lies and lack of integrity.

Yet, I see how I and others struggle with some truths. “Line upon line” is about all many of us can handle.

Eg., The origins of Christian belief are often ignored. I only know of very few members who have searched it - and even they dismiss some truths because they don’t confirm what they have believed all their lives.

Church leaders have been dealing in lies & not handling the truth & not trusting followers to handle it - for a long time…

”All other church historians begin where Eusebius left off ** - he’s considered Father of Church history. In reality he was “less a historian than a mediator of knowledge” - aka mediator of propaganda who merged Christianity with Paganism - who called as Emperor Constantine “most beloved by God.”.

• Eusebius (264 AD) quotes:
  “It is an act of virtue to deceive & lie, when by such means the interest of the church might be promoted.”
  &
  “It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.”

[InfoWarrior82]

...or you might be a dissenter.

"Any who are tempted to rake through the annals of history, to use truth unrighteously, or to dig up facts with the intent to defame or destroy, should hearken to this warning of scripture: ‘The wrath of God is…against all…who hold the truth in unrighteousness.’ To anyone who, because of truth, may be tempted to become a dissenter against the Lord and his anointed, weigh carefully your action…"

(Elder Russell M. Nelson, “Truth—and More,” Ensign, Jan. 1986, p. 69.)

So the leaders consider themselves infallible? Am I missing something here?

True Blue Mormon: "Nooooo nononono, the prophets are not infallible!!!! C'mon man! They make mistakes all the time! They forget dates, birthdays, names, get math problems wrong, use too much flour in their cookies, drink a Dr. Pepper now and then."

Truth Seeker: "But they all say that they can't lead you astray."

True Blue Mormon: "Well yes, when it comes to anything doctrinal... they are indeed....infallible."

[Thinker]

The reason we have such an issue with criticism, why it triggers leaders, coworkers, husband's and wives, and children alike, is because we associate criticism with a toxic sense of self worthlessness.

I read a book on this concept, and it was very powerful.... To realize you can have faults but still be valuable.

One day while approaching the end of this book, the Holy Spirit whispered "now you have an understanding of your worth, we can finally get to working on your faults".

I felt complete peace about it. But a very real understanding that the Holy Spirit was going to be taking me on a journey of criticism and honesty.

When I think of it, most addiction recovery programs have this concept built in. You are surrounded by love and support, but it is a cruel process of becoming honest with self about one's problems.

If humanity can just overcome this one thing, this sense of being inhuman and not worthy of love because genuine criticisms can be made of you... We would be able to improve so much faster, clean up our messes so much faster.

Leaders who embrace the honesty have a lot of potential to influence others. The problem we have with that though, is even if people get to the point of being brutally honest with self about their faults... People can learn to not crucify themselves for their faults. But I still don't think people have gotten to the point where they don't need to crucify others for their faults.

That right there is a huge barrior to overcoming sin in our culture and on a societal scale.

Well put! This is so important to address!

Polarized/bipolar extreme, “either-or” thinking distortion is taught in church… eg.,
“The church is EITHER true OR not.”
“You are EITHER on the Lord’s side OR you’re not.”

Is it any surprise when upon discovering lies of the church, some discard the entire thing? And it’s also to be expected that many members suffer from depression and anxiety - feeling that if they have any imperfection than they are all bad… or they deny bad and never repent and progress. And they may be condemning of others for being imperfect.

The punitive life trap is one I and many others - especially in the church - struggle with.

[Gadianton Slayer]

So the leaders consider themselves infallible?

Yes.

[Cruiserdude]

[“YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH!”]

This is literally what they're saying.

It’s often true and they can’t handle the truth either. Their foundations are weak - based on many lies and lack of integrity.

Yet, I see how I and others struggle with some truths. “Line upon line” is about all many of us can handle.

Eg., The origins of Christian belief are often ignored. I only know of very few members who have searched it - and even they dismiss some truths because they don’t confirm what they have believed all their lives.

Church leaders have been dealing in lies & not handling the truth & not trusting followers to handle it - for a long time…

”All other church historians begin where Eusebius left off ** - he’s considered Father of Church history. In reality he was “less a historian than a mediator of knowledge” - aka mediator of propaganda who merged Christianity with Paganism - who called as Emperor Constantine “most beloved by God.”.

• Eusebius (264 AD) quotes:
  “It is an act of virtue to deceive & lie, when by such means the interest of the church might be promoted.”
  &
  “It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.”

Sounds very Marxist.... The 'needed' end results justifies the 'vile means' of obtaining said results. That is an anti Christian principle. Many live by that creed: parents, teachers, rulers, etc.

[Thinker]

It’s often true and they can’t handle the truth either. Their foundations are weak - based on many lies and lack of integrity.

Yet, I see how I and others struggle with some truths. “Line upon line” is about all many of us can handle.

Eg., The origins of Christian belief are often ignored. I only know of very few members who have searched it - and even they dismiss some truths because they don’t confirm what they have believed all their lives.

Church leaders have been dealing in lies & not handling the truth & not trusting followers to handle it - for a long time…

”All other church historians begin where Eusebius left off ** - he’s considered Father of Church history. In reality he was “less a historian than a mediator of knowledge” - aka mediator of propaganda who merged Christianity with Paganism - who called as Emperor Constantine “most beloved by God.”.

• Eusebius (264 AD) quotes:
  “It is an act of virtue to deceive & lie, when by such means the interest of the church might be promoted.”
  &
  “It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.”

Sounds very Marxist.... The 'needed' end results justifies the 'vile means' of obtaining said results. That is an anti Christian principle. Many live by that creed: parents, teachers, rulers, etc.

True.
It is anti-Christian when you consider Christ representing truth - prioritizing the discovery of it, speaking it and defending it - even against opposition when necessary.

And anything short of it is a weak foundation- which is bound to fail. Reminds me of “all things will fail except Charity (pure love).” I believe that genuine love is based on truth, not lies. If I really love someone (others or myself), I seek to understand what is truly going on with them, and what would truly help. Lies may temporarily sooth - like getting drunk - but they tend to make it 10x worse like compound interest debt. Better to pay up front - face the music, even if hard.

The notion that the means (lying) justify the end (“protecting” from truth) itself is from the father of lies. Each lie makes one more lost to truth - to the point that one has no idea how to help themselves or others because they’re out of touch with reality.

[Cruiserdude]

It’s often true and they can’t handle the truth either. Their foundations are weak - based on many lies and lack of integrity.

Yet, I see how I and others struggle with some truths. “Line upon line” is about all many of us can handle.

Eg., The origins of Christian belief are often ignored. I only know of very few members who have searched it - and even they dismiss some truths because they don’t confirm what they have believed all their lives.

Church leaders have been dealing in lies & not handling the truth & not trusting followers to handle it - for a long time…

”All other church historians begin where Eusebius left off ** - he’s considered Father of Church history. In reality he was “less a historian than a mediator of knowledge” - aka mediator of propaganda who merged Christianity with Paganism - who called as Emperor Constantine “most beloved by God.”.

• Eusebius (264 AD) quotes:
  “It is an act of virtue to deceive & lie, when by such means the interest of the church might be promoted.”
  &
  “It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.”

Sounds very Marxist.... The 'needed' end results justifies the 'vile means' of obtaining said results. That is an anti Christian principle. Many live by that creed: parents, teachers, rulers, etc.

It is anti-Christian when you consider Christ representing truth - prioritizing the discovery of it, speaking it and defending it - even against opposition when necessary.

As you mention, many of us(especially those in 'positions of authority') would do well to approach these kinds of things as Christ did: Do what is right...let the consequences follow. Seems so simple but apparently we can see it's a real battle for many folks. Myself included.

[Thinker]

As you mention, many of us(especially those in 'positions of authority') would do well to approach these kinds of things as Christ did: Do what is right...let the consequences follow. Seems so simple but apparently we can see it's a real battle for many folks. Myself included.

So true. And I love that hymn - helped me during a hard time.

It does seem simple, but applying it can be difficult. What is right in this moment? Sometimes I’ve gotten it right, other times not. Live & learn.

[Juliet]

The reason we have such an issue with criticism, why it triggers leaders, coworkers, husband's and wives, and children alike, is because we associate criticism with a toxic sense of self worthlessness.

I read a book on this concept, and it was very powerful.... To realize you can have faults but still be valuable.

One day while approaching the end of this book, the Holy Spirit whispered "now you have an understanding of your worth, we can finally get to working on your faults".

I felt complete peace about it. But a very real understanding that the Holy Spirit was going to be taking me on a journey of criticism and honesty.

When I think of it, most addiction recovery programs have this concept built in. You are surrounded by love and support, but it is a cruel process of becoming honest with self about one's problems.

If humanity can just overcome this one thing, this sense of being inhuman and not worthy of love because genuine criticisms can be made of you... We would be able to improve so much faster, clean up our messes so much faster.

Leaders who embrace the honesty have a lot of potential to influence others. The problem we have with that though, is even if people get to the point of being brutally honest with self about their faults... People can learn to not crucify themselves for their faults. But I still don't think people have gotten to the point where they don't need to crucify others for their faults.

That right there is a huge barrior to overcoming sin in our culture and on a societal scale.

What book was it?

Healing the Shame that Binds You by John Bradshaw.

[CuriousThinker]

The reason we have such an issue with criticism, why it triggers leaders, coworkers, husband's and wives, and children alike, is because we associate criticism with a toxic sense of self worthlessness.

I read a book on this concept, and it was very powerful.... To realize you can have faults but still be valuable.

One day while approaching the end of this book, the Holy Spirit whispered "now you have an understanding of your worth, we can finally get to working on your faults".

I felt complete peace about it. But a very real understanding that the Holy Spirit was going to be taking me on a journey of criticism and honesty.

When I think of it, most addiction recovery programs have this concept built in. You are surrounded by love and support, but it is a cruel process of becoming honest with self about one's problems.

If humanity can just overcome this one thing, this sense of being inhuman and not worthy of love because genuine criticisms can be made of you... We would be able to improve so much faster, clean up our messes so much faster.

Leaders who embrace the honesty have a lot of potential to influence others. The problem we have with that though, is even if people get to the point of being brutally honest with self about their faults... People can learn to not crucify themselves for their faults. But I still don't think people have gotten to the point where they don't need to crucify others for their faults.

That right there is a huge barrior to overcoming sin in our culture and on a societal scale.

What book was it?

Healing the Shame that Binds You by John Bradshaw.

Thank you!

[MikeMaillet]

It is painfully obvious (to me, anyway) that the church has become a church built for gain and that we are being led by businessmen and lawyers. I would like nothing more than we Gentiles living the covenant as described in the Book of Mormon and other scriptures. This would ensure our protection from mortal enemies and we would be eating the good of the land. Judging by the drought in the USA, the mysterious recent destruction of food processing facilities and deteriorating world conditions, our food supply is about to get expensive and scarce. There comes a time when we must face the obvious and move on. I don't like the fact that the church owns massive amounts of stocks in Babylonian corporations who are now flying their rainbow logos. I definitely do not like the City Creek Mall, a monument to consumerism ...

The best we can do is IGNORE the GAs; what they are selling will not save us. Shake the dust off of Isaiah and read about our near future. It's not the same as the scenario being painted by RMN et al but it is scripture and it has been commanded by our Saviour that we should be diligent in our study of Isaiah's words. Our GAs are drunk, but not with wine or strong drink.

Isaiah 3

13) Jehovah will take a stand and contend with them;
he has arisen to judge the nations.

14) He will bring to trial the elders of his people
and their rulers, and say to them,
It is you who have devoured the vineyard;
you fill your houses by depriving the needy.

15) What do you mean by oppressing my people,
humbling the faces of the poor?
says Jehovah of Hosts.

Jehovah refers to the poor as "my people" and we are surrounded by poor people whilst the church sits on billions of dollars and a massive stock portfolio. How much will it take for we Mormons to wake up to our awful situation? Our GAs like to prance about while they demand that I call them all Prophets, Seers and Revelators or else be denied access to a temple. Real Prophets do not split their duties to God with Babylonian obligations such as the iFit guy. Why do we pay these guys any attention? IGNORE them!

Mike Maillet
Ingleside, Ontario

As for being careful about telling the truth, I call them as I see them. What surprises me is that I've yet to be called to a "court of love" for my views. I use my full name and address in all of my posts and I have to believe that the church employs people to scan these types of forums.

[endlessQuestions]

Gad,

Were you even born when they said these things?

Do I need to have been? Or am I just bringing up truth that would make me a dissenter? Does one have to have been born when a statement was made in order to talk about it?

Just wondering… (you didn’t answer the question)

No. But I do not see how this question is relevant.

Well, when you’ve lived a bit longer, think back to the things you said 30+ years ago, and you’ll probably understand.